I called oatmeal cookies unhealthy and I got blasted - why?
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WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
Yes, as I suggested in response to your other post you seem to be confusing calorie dense and unhealthy.
How I would explain it to anyone (and children aren't the audience on MFP, but I was able to grasp this as a child so I do not think it's that difficult) is that some foods are more calorie dense than others and some are more nutrient dense than others and that to have an overall healthy diet we need to consider a few things:
(1) that it have appropriate calories for one's goals (neither too high NOR too low);
(2) that it be balanced -- in other words, that it have enough in the various micro and macronutrients for your goals.
Whether a particular food adds to the overall health of the diet depends on what one needs given the above considerations.
Broccoli will likely further one's goals (if one is the average person in the US) more often than an oatmeal cookie, but it really depends. (The oatmeal cookie could have more fiber, it will have more fat, relevant if the person is doing some juicing thing, it obviously has more calories which are not inherently bad, etc.).
More significantly, an absolutely okay goal is to have a diet that is enjoyable and satisfying and if someone finds that an oatmeal cookie furthers this goal and is not inconsistent with any others, I don't see how it's unhealthy. It's not identical to broccoli (and no one has ever said it is) and IMO it's neither healthy nor unhealthy in itself. It's neutral.
And like others I do regularly eat some food more for its taste than its micronutrient content (after getting plenty of food which I enjoy for both). I don't see anything wrong with this. It still contributes calories I need for my day (at the moment my deficit is as high as I think is appropriate at my current weight), and my diet is overall very healthy. Also, I am not hungry -- I find the claim that eating one cookie will make you hungry for the day awfully odd, if one is otherwise eating sensibly and at a reasonable calorie level.
I'm not against cookies or desserts, I did not ban these out of my life. I am ok with eating 1 or 2 or whatever I want as long as it fits in with my goal. My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it. You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Control when you get older you need to be able to differentiate between these at any age.
There's a difference between an avocado and a piece of celery as well. Should the avocado be deemed unhealthy because it's calorie dense?
No but I am pretty sure an avocado doesn't make you crave another one immediately after finishing it. I am sure everyone has experienced cravings for another cookie/dessert and has to practice self control in order to not act on it.
And again, you are going back to your personal physiology which doesn't reflect on the food, it reflects on you. I would absolutely crave more avocado after one because they are delicious and probably my favorite veggie. An oatmeal cookie, I could easily eat one and put them down...
And so what if a food makes you have to practice self control anyway? We are adults...0 -
WorkInProgress909 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
Yes, as I suggested in response to your other post you seem to be confusing calorie dense and unhealthy.
How I would explain it to anyone (and children aren't the audience on MFP, but I was able to grasp this as a child so I do not think it's that difficult) is that some foods are more calorie dense than others and some are more nutrient dense than others and that to have an overall healthy diet we need to consider a few things:
(1) that it have appropriate calories for one's goals (neither too high NOR too low);
(2) that it be balanced -- in other words, that it have enough in the various micro and macronutrients for your goals.
Whether a particular food adds to the overall health of the diet depends on what one needs given the above considerations.
Broccoli will likely further one's goals (if one is the average person in the US) more often than an oatmeal cookie, but it really depends. (The oatmeal cookie could have more fiber, it will have more fat, relevant if the person is doing some juicing thing, it obviously has more calories which are not inherently bad, etc.).
More significantly, an absolutely okay goal is to have a diet that is enjoyable and satisfying and if someone finds that an oatmeal cookie furthers this goal and is not inconsistent with any others, I don't see how it's unhealthy. It's not identical to broccoli (and no one has ever said it is) and IMO it's neither healthy nor unhealthy in itself. It's neutral.
And like others I do regularly eat some food more for its taste than its micronutrient content (after getting plenty of food which I enjoy for both). I don't see anything wrong with this. It still contributes calories I need for my day (at the moment my deficit is as high as I think is appropriate at my current weight), and my diet is overall very healthy. Also, I am not hungry -- I find the claim that eating one cookie will make you hungry for the day awfully odd, if one is otherwise eating sensibly and at a reasonable calorie level.
I'm not against cookies or desserts, I did not ban these out of my life. I am ok with eating 1 or 2 or whatever I want as long as it fits in with my goal. My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it. You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Control when you get older you need to be able to differentiate between these at any age.
You keep saying that we need to acknowledge the "fact" that some foods are unhealthy. Are you even reading what people are writing to you? Because everyone else here is disputing your assumption that there exists the idea of an unhealthy food. The difference between a cookie and a bowl of fruit is the amount of nutrients in each. Cookies absolutely have nutrients. You know what doesn't have nutrients? Water. But if you're daily nutrient goals can be filled by a cookie, then there is nothing unhealthy about a cookie.
Pretend it's one of those futuristic movies and both foods are in pill form, no taste. One pill has the macro and micro nutrients of a cookie, and the other has the nutrients of a bowl of fruit. You happen to need more fat in your diet for that day (not to mention the micronutrients that a cookie also contains, btw), so it doesn't make sense to grab the "fruit" pill at all. Just because the two foods are dressed differently doesn't mean they are treated any differently by the body, except that one provides a certain set of nutrients and the other provides a different set. Healthy is determined by your food in context of all your other food.
And btw, if the truth about foods and a healthy overall diet had been properly explained to me as a child, I probably wouldn't have developed an eating disorder.0 -
For high volume (low calorie density) with the parameters given, I'd go with air. Which no-one seems to want to talk about. There's foods like popcorn and puffed wheat that do just that. Volume without calories.
Or water, and even fiber to a large degree. Watermelon, lettuce, cucumbers / pickles, etc.0 -
WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
Yes, as I suggested in response to your other post you seem to be confusing calorie dense and unhealthy.
How I would explain it to anyone (and children aren't the audience on MFP, but I was able to grasp this as a child so I do not think it's that difficult) is that some foods are more calorie dense than others and some are more nutrient dense than others and that to have an overall healthy diet we need to consider a few things:
(1) that it have appropriate calories for one's goals (neither too high NOR too low);
(2) that it be balanced -- in other words, that it have enough in the various micro and macronutrients for your goals.
Whether a particular food adds to the overall health of the diet depends on what one needs given the above considerations.
Broccoli will likely further one's goals (if one is the average person in the US) more often than an oatmeal cookie, but it really depends. (The oatmeal cookie could have more fiber, it will have more fat, relevant if the person is doing some juicing thing, it obviously has more calories which are not inherently bad, etc.).
More significantly, an absolutely okay goal is to have a diet that is enjoyable and satisfying and if someone finds that an oatmeal cookie furthers this goal and is not inconsistent with any others, I don't see how it's unhealthy. It's not identical to broccoli (and no one has ever said it is) and IMO it's neither healthy nor unhealthy in itself. It's neutral.
And like others I do regularly eat some food more for its taste than its micronutrient content (after getting plenty of food which I enjoy for both). I don't see anything wrong with this. It still contributes calories I need for my day (at the moment my deficit is as high as I think is appropriate at my current weight), and my diet is overall very healthy. Also, I am not hungry -- I find the claim that eating one cookie will make you hungry for the day awfully odd, if one is otherwise eating sensibly and at a reasonable calorie level.
I'm not against cookies or desserts, I did not ban these out of my life. I am ok with eating 1 or 2 or whatever I want as long as it fits in with my goal. My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it. You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Control when you get older you need to be able to differentiate between these at any age.
There's a difference between an avocado and a piece of celery as well. Should the avocado be deemed unhealthy because it's calorie dense?
No but I am pretty sure an avocado doesn't make you crave another one immediately after finishing it. I am sure everyone has experienced cravings for another cookie/dessert and has to practice self control in order to not act on it.
And again, you are going back to your personal physiology which doesn't reflect on the food, it reflects on you. I would absolutely crave more avocado after one because they are delicious and probably my favorite veggie. An oatmeal cookie, I could easily eat one and put them down...
And so what if a food makes you have to practice self control anyway? We are adults...
Natural instinct is to crave more of the unhealthy food and we all have to practice self control in order to not eat it. Since one gives a craving and one doesn't .. One is healthy and one isn't. My self control isn't any better or worse than anyone else's.. I am not overweight but do need to lose few pounds. No one finishes a salad with chicken and says I could really go for another one. Or even a steak 1 portion makes you too full to have or even crave another one. With cookies and dessert you do crave another one and you will want another one unless you tell yourself no and move on. This to me means there is a difference between the 2 groups of food.
So pineapple is unhealthy for everyone because for me when I eat some I crave more. Got it.0 -
And again, no one said there wasn't a difference in the foods. Do you read what people here are writing?WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
Yes, as I suggested in response to your other post you seem to be confusing calorie dense and unhealthy.
How I would explain it to anyone (and children aren't the audience on MFP, but I was able to grasp this as a child so I do not think it's that difficult) is that some foods are more calorie dense than others and some are more nutrient dense than others and that to have an overall healthy diet we need to consider a few things:
(1) that it have appropriate calories for one's goals (neither too high NOR too low);
(2) that it be balanced -- in other words, that it have enough in the various micro and macronutrients for your goals.
Whether a particular food adds to the overall health of the diet depends on what one needs given the above considerations.
Broccoli will likely further one's goals (if one is the average person in the US) more often than an oatmeal cookie, but it really depends. (The oatmeal cookie could have more fiber, it will have more fat, relevant if the person is doing some juicing thing, it obviously has more calories which are not inherently bad, etc.).
More significantly, an absolutely okay goal is to have a diet that is enjoyable and satisfying and if someone finds that an oatmeal cookie furthers this goal and is not inconsistent with any others, I don't see how it's unhealthy. It's not identical to broccoli (and no one has ever said it is) and IMO it's neither healthy nor unhealthy in itself. It's neutral.
And like others I do regularly eat some food more for its taste than its micronutrient content (after getting plenty of food which I enjoy for both). I don't see anything wrong with this. It still contributes calories I need for my day (at the moment my deficit is as high as I think is appropriate at my current weight), and my diet is overall very healthy. Also, I am not hungry -- I find the claim that eating one cookie will make you hungry for the day awfully odd, if one is otherwise eating sensibly and at a reasonable calorie level.
I'm not against cookies or desserts, I did not ban these out of my life. I am ok with eating 1 or 2 or whatever I want as long as it fits in with my goal. My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it. You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Control when you get older you need to be able to differentiate between these at any age.
There's a difference between an avocado and a piece of celery as well. Should the avocado be deemed unhealthy because it's calorie dense?
No but I am pretty sure an avocado doesn't make you crave another one immediately after finishing it. I am sure everyone has experienced cravings for another cookie/dessert and has to practice self control in order to not act on it.
And again, you are going back to your personal physiology which doesn't reflect on the food, it reflects on you. I would absolutely crave more avocado after one because they are delicious and probably my favorite veggie. An oatmeal cookie, I could easily eat one and put them down...
And so what if a food makes you have to practice self control anyway? We are adults...
Natural instinct is to crave more of the unhealthy food and we all have to practice self control in order to not eat it. Since one gives a craving and one doesn't .. One is healthy and one isn't. My self control isn't any better or worse than anyone else's.. I am not overweight but do need to lose few pounds. No one finishes a salad with chicken and says I could really go for another one. Or even 1 portion of steak makes you too full to have or even crave another one. With cookies and dessert you do crave another one and you will want another one unless you tell yourself no and move on. This to me means there is a difference between the 2 groups of food.
You are simply wrong on cravings and seem to think how you feel is how everyone feels. We aren't talking about dem feelers here.0 -
I have often finished my serving of fruit or even veggies and gone back to the fridge to get more. I have often had only one cookie and been satisfied.WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
Yes, as I suggested in response to your other post you seem to be confusing calorie dense and unhealthy.
How I would explain it to anyone (and children aren't the audience on MFP, but I was able to grasp this as a child so I do not think it's that difficult) is that some foods are more calorie dense than others and some are more nutrient dense than others and that to have an overall healthy diet we need to consider a few things:
(1) that it have appropriate calories for one's goals (neither too high NOR too low);
(2) that it be balanced -- in other words, that it have enough in the various micro and macronutrients for your goals.
Whether a particular food adds to the overall health of the diet depends on what one needs given the above considerations.
Broccoli will likely further one's goals (if one is the average person in the US) more often than an oatmeal cookie, but it really depends. (The oatmeal cookie could have more fiber, it will have more fat, relevant if the person is doing some juicing thing, it obviously has more calories which are not inherently bad, etc.).
More significantly, an absolutely okay goal is to have a diet that is enjoyable and satisfying and if someone finds that an oatmeal cookie furthers this goal and is not inconsistent with any others, I don't see how it's unhealthy. It's not identical to broccoli (and no one has ever said it is) and IMO it's neither healthy nor unhealthy in itself. It's neutral.
And like others I do regularly eat some food more for its taste than its micronutrient content (after getting plenty of food which I enjoy for both). I don't see anything wrong with this. It still contributes calories I need for my day (at the moment my deficit is as high as I think is appropriate at my current weight), and my diet is overall very healthy. Also, I am not hungry -- I find the claim that eating one cookie will make you hungry for the day awfully odd, if one is otherwise eating sensibly and at a reasonable calorie level.
I'm not against cookies or desserts, I did not ban these out of my life. I am ok with eating 1 or 2 or whatever I want as long as it fits in with my goal. My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it. You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Control when you get older you need to be able to differentiate between these at any age.
There's a difference between an avocado and a piece of celery as well. Should the avocado be deemed unhealthy because it's calorie dense?
No but I am pretty sure an avocado doesn't make you crave another one immediately after finishing it. I am sure everyone has experienced cravings for another cookie/dessert and has to practice self control in order to not act on it.
And again, you are going back to your personal physiology which doesn't reflect on the food, it reflects on you. I would absolutely crave more avocado after one because they are delicious and probably my favorite veggie. An oatmeal cookie, I could easily eat one and put them down...
And so what if a food makes you have to practice self control anyway? We are adults...
Natural instinct is to crave more of the unhealthy food and we all have to practice self control in order to not eat it. Since one gives a craving and one doesn't .. One is healthy and one isn't. My self control isn't any better or worse than anyone else's.. I am not overweight but do need to lose few pounds. No one finishes a salad with chicken and says I could really go for another one. Or even a steak 1 portion makes you too full to have or even crave another one. With cookies and dessert you do crave another one and you will want another one unless you tell yourself no and move on. This to me means there is a difference between the 2 groups of food.
I don't understand your logic.
0 -
WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
Yes, as I suggested in response to your other post you seem to be confusing calorie dense and unhealthy.
How I would explain it to anyone (and children aren't the audience on MFP, but I was able to grasp this as a child so I do not think it's that difficult) is that some foods are more calorie dense than others and some are more nutrient dense than others and that to have an overall healthy diet we need to consider a few things:
(1) that it have appropriate calories for one's goals (neither too high NOR too low);
(2) that it be balanced -- in other words, that it have enough in the various micro and macronutrients for your goals.
Whether a particular food adds to the overall health of the diet depends on what one needs given the above considerations.
Broccoli will likely further one's goals (if one is the average person in the US) more often than an oatmeal cookie, but it really depends. (The oatmeal cookie could have more fiber, it will have more fat, relevant if the person is doing some juicing thing, it obviously has more calories which are not inherently bad, etc.).
More significantly, an absolutely okay goal is to have a diet that is enjoyable and satisfying and if someone finds that an oatmeal cookie furthers this goal and is not inconsistent with any others, I don't see how it's unhealthy. It's not identical to broccoli (and no one has ever said it is) and IMO it's neither healthy nor unhealthy in itself. It's neutral.
And like others I do regularly eat some food more for its taste than its micronutrient content (after getting plenty of food which I enjoy for both). I don't see anything wrong with this. It still contributes calories I need for my day (at the moment my deficit is as high as I think is appropriate at my current weight), and my diet is overall very healthy. Also, I am not hungry -- I find the claim that eating one cookie will make you hungry for the day awfully odd, if one is otherwise eating sensibly and at a reasonable calorie level.
I'm not against cookies or desserts, I did not ban these out of my life. I am ok with eating 1 or 2 or whatever I want as long as it fits in with my goal. My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it. You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Control when you get older you need to be able to differentiate between these at any age.
There's a difference between an avocado and a piece of celery as well. Should the avocado be deemed unhealthy because it's calorie dense?
No but I am pretty sure an avocado doesn't make you crave another one immediately after finishing it. I am sure everyone has experienced cravings for another cookie/dessert and has to practice self control in order to not act on it.
And again, you are going back to your personal physiology which doesn't reflect on the food, it reflects on you. I would absolutely crave more avocado after one because they are delicious and probably my favorite veggie. An oatmeal cookie, I could easily eat one and put them down...
And so what if a food makes you have to practice self control anyway? We are adults...
Natural instinct is to crave more of the unhealthy food and we all have to practice self control in order to not eat it. Since one gives a craving and one doesn't .. One is healthy and one isn't. My self control isn't any better or worse than anyone else's.. I am not overweight but do need to lose few pounds. No one finishes a salad with chicken and says I could really go for another one. Or even 1 portion of steak makes you too full to have or even crave another one. With cookies ,dessert, or junk food you do crave another one and you will want another one unless you tell yourself no and move on. This to me means there is a difference between the 2 groups of food.
You've clearly never had a Ruth's Chris steak. Several people, including myself, have told you that there are plenty of vegetables or meats we can binge on happily.0 -
WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
Yes, as I suggested in response to your other post you seem to be confusing calorie dense and unhealthy.
How I would explain it to anyone (and children aren't the audience on MFP, but I was able to grasp this as a child so I do not think it's that difficult) is that some foods are more calorie dense than others and some are more nutrient dense than others and that to have an overall healthy diet we need to consider a few things:
(1) that it have appropriate calories for one's goals (neither too high NOR too low);
(2) that it be balanced -- in other words, that it have enough in the various micro and macronutrients for your goals.
Whether a particular food adds to the overall health of the diet depends on what one needs given the above considerations.
Broccoli will likely further one's goals (if one is the average person in the US) more often than an oatmeal cookie, but it really depends. (The oatmeal cookie could have more fiber, it will have more fat, relevant if the person is doing some juicing thing, it obviously has more calories which are not inherently bad, etc.).
More significantly, an absolutely okay goal is to have a diet that is enjoyable and satisfying and if someone finds that an oatmeal cookie furthers this goal and is not inconsistent with any others, I don't see how it's unhealthy. It's not identical to broccoli (and no one has ever said it is) and IMO it's neither healthy nor unhealthy in itself. It's neutral.
And like others I do regularly eat some food more for its taste than its micronutrient content (after getting plenty of food which I enjoy for both). I don't see anything wrong with this. It still contributes calories I need for my day (at the moment my deficit is as high as I think is appropriate at my current weight), and my diet is overall very healthy. Also, I am not hungry -- I find the claim that eating one cookie will make you hungry for the day awfully odd, if one is otherwise eating sensibly and at a reasonable calorie level.
I'm not against cookies or desserts, I did not ban these out of my life. I am ok with eating 1 or 2 or whatever I want as long as it fits in with my goal. My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it. You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Control when you get older you need to be able to differentiate between these at any age.
There's a difference between an avocado and a piece of celery as well. Should the avocado be deemed unhealthy because it's calorie dense?
No. I am pretty sure an avocado doesn't make you crave another one immediately after finishing it. I am sure everyone has experienced cravings for another cookie/dessert and has to practice self control in order to not act on it.
While I rarely just eat avocado straight, if you smash it up and add some spices, you have guacamole. Which I can eat all day long... Costco has a great one.. or just doing avocado + ortego guac mix with tortilla chips is my all time favorite snack. So yes, i could eat it all day long. I could even sub the chips for veggies and still want more.0 -
WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
Yes, as I suggested in response to your other post you seem to be confusing calorie dense and unhealthy.
How I would explain it to anyone (and children aren't the audience on MFP, but I was able to grasp this as a child so I do not think it's that difficult) is that some foods are more calorie dense than others and some are more nutrient dense than others and that to have an overall healthy diet we need to consider a few things:
(1) that it have appropriate calories for one's goals (neither too high NOR too low);
(2) that it be balanced -- in other words, that it have enough in the various micro and macronutrients for your goals.
Whether a particular food adds to the overall health of the diet depends on what one needs given the above considerations.
Broccoli will likely further one's goals (if one is the average person in the US) more often than an oatmeal cookie, but it really depends. (The oatmeal cookie could have more fiber, it will have more fat, relevant if the person is doing some juicing thing, it obviously has more calories which are not inherently bad, etc.).
More significantly, an absolutely okay goal is to have a diet that is enjoyable and satisfying and if someone finds that an oatmeal cookie furthers this goal and is not inconsistent with any others, I don't see how it's unhealthy. It's not identical to broccoli (and no one has ever said it is) and IMO it's neither healthy nor unhealthy in itself. It's neutral.
And like others I do regularly eat some food more for its taste than its micronutrient content (after getting plenty of food which I enjoy for both). I don't see anything wrong with this. It still contributes calories I need for my day (at the moment my deficit is as high as I think is appropriate at my current weight), and my diet is overall very healthy. Also, I am not hungry -- I find the claim that eating one cookie will make you hungry for the day awfully odd, if one is otherwise eating sensibly and at a reasonable calorie level.
I'm not against cookies or desserts, I did not ban these out of my life. I am ok with eating 1 or 2 or whatever I want as long as it fits in with my goal. My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it. You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Control when you get older you need to be able to differentiate between these at any age.
There's a difference between an avocado and a piece of celery as well. Should the avocado be deemed unhealthy because it's calorie dense?
No. I am pretty sure an avocado doesn't make you crave another one immediately after finishing it. I am sure everyone has experienced cravings for another cookie/dessert and has to practice self control in order to not act on it.
While I rarely just eat avocado straight, if you smash it up and add some spices, you have guacamole. Which I can eat all day long... Costco has a great one.. or just doing avocado + ortego guac mix with tortilla chips is my all time favorite snack. So yes, i could eat it all day long. I could even sub the chips for veggies and still want more.
Yup; pico too.0 -
WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
Yes, as I suggested in response to your other post you seem to be confusing calorie dense and unhealthy.
How I would explain it to anyone (and children aren't the audience on MFP, but I was able to grasp this as a child so I do not think it's that difficult) is that some foods are more calorie dense than others and some are more nutrient dense than others and that to have an overall healthy diet we need to consider a few things:
(1) that it have appropriate calories for one's goals (neither too high NOR too low);
(2) that it be balanced -- in other words, that it have enough in the various micro and macronutrients for your goals.
Whether a particular food adds to the overall health of the diet depends on what one needs given the above considerations.
Broccoli will likely further one's goals (if one is the average person in the US) more often than an oatmeal cookie, but it really depends. (The oatmeal cookie could have more fiber, it will have more fat, relevant if the person is doing some juicing thing, it obviously has more calories which are not inherently bad, etc.).
More significantly, an absolutely okay goal is to have a diet that is enjoyable and satisfying and if someone finds that an oatmeal cookie furthers this goal and is not inconsistent with any others, I don't see how it's unhealthy. It's not identical to broccoli (and no one has ever said it is) and IMO it's neither healthy nor unhealthy in itself. It's neutral.
And like others I do regularly eat some food more for its taste than its micronutrient content (after getting plenty of food which I enjoy for both). I don't see anything wrong with this. It still contributes calories I need for my day (at the moment my deficit is as high as I think is appropriate at my current weight), and my diet is overall very healthy. Also, I am not hungry -- I find the claim that eating one cookie will make you hungry for the day awfully odd, if one is otherwise eating sensibly and at a reasonable calorie level.
I'm not against cookies or desserts, I did not ban these out of my life. I am ok with eating 1 or 2 or whatever I want as long as it fits in with my goal. My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it. You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Control when you get older you need to be able to differentiate between these at any age.
There's a difference between an avocado and a piece of celery as well. Should the avocado be deemed unhealthy because it's calorie dense?
No but I am pretty sure an avocado doesn't make you crave another one immediately after finishing it. I am sure everyone has experienced cravings for another cookie/dessert and has to practice self control in order to not act on it.
And again, you are going back to your personal physiology which doesn't reflect on the food, it reflects on you. I would absolutely crave more avocado after one because they are delicious and probably my favorite veggie. An oatmeal cookie, I could easily eat one and put them down...
And so what if a food makes you have to practice self control anyway? We are adults...
Natural instinct is to crave more of the unhealthy food and we all have to practice self control in order to not eat it. Since one gives a craving and one doesn't .. One is healthy and one isn't. My self control isn't any better or worse than anyone else's.. I am not overweight but do need to lose few pounds. No one finishes a salad with chicken and says I could really go for another one. Or even 1 portion of steak makes you too full to have or even crave another one. With cookies ,dessert, or junk food you do crave another one and you will want another one unless you tell yourself no and move on. This to me means there is a difference between the 2 groups of food.
You've clearly never had a Ruth's Chris steak. Several people, including myself, have told you that there are plenty of vegetables or meats we can binge on happily.
That is me. I never crave cookies, cake, doughnuts or most sweets. What i crave is wings, burgers and steak.....
0 -
@midwesterner85 , absolutely. Water and fiber are right up there with the bulk fillers. For a bulk cookie replacement my first go-to is air. Bulk Barn also has a variety of air-popped grains including millet.0
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WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
Yes, as I suggested in response to your other post you seem to be confusing calorie dense and unhealthy.
How I would explain it to anyone (and children aren't the audience on MFP, but I was able to grasp this as a child so I do not think it's that difficult) is that some foods are more calorie dense than others and some are more nutrient dense than others and that to have an overall healthy diet we need to consider a few things:
(1) that it have appropriate calories for one's goals (neither too high NOR too low);
(2) that it be balanced -- in other words, that it have enough in the various micro and macronutrients for your goals.
Whether a particular food adds to the overall health of the diet depends on what one needs given the above considerations.
Broccoli will likely further one's goals (if one is the average person in the US) more often than an oatmeal cookie, but it really depends. (The oatmeal cookie could have more fiber, it will have more fat, relevant if the person is doing some juicing thing, it obviously has more calories which are not inherently bad, etc.).
More significantly, an absolutely okay goal is to have a diet that is enjoyable and satisfying and if someone finds that an oatmeal cookie furthers this goal and is not inconsistent with any others, I don't see how it's unhealthy. It's not identical to broccoli (and no one has ever said it is) and IMO it's neither healthy nor unhealthy in itself. It's neutral.
And like others I do regularly eat some food more for its taste than its micronutrient content (after getting plenty of food which I enjoy for both). I don't see anything wrong with this. It still contributes calories I need for my day (at the moment my deficit is as high as I think is appropriate at my current weight), and my diet is overall very healthy. Also, I am not hungry -- I find the claim that eating one cookie will make you hungry for the day awfully odd, if one is otherwise eating sensibly and at a reasonable calorie level.
I'm not against cookies or desserts, I did not ban these out of my life. I am ok with eating 1 or 2 or whatever I want as long as it fits in with my goal. My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it. You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Control when you get older you need to be able to differentiate between these at any age.
There's a difference between an avocado and a piece of celery as well. Should the avocado be deemed unhealthy because it's calorie dense?
No but I am pretty sure an avocado doesn't make you crave another one immediately after finishing it. I am sure everyone has experienced cravings for another cookie/dessert and has to practice self control in order to not act on it.
And again, you are going back to your personal physiology which doesn't reflect on the food, it reflects on you. I would absolutely crave more avocado after one because they are delicious and probably my favorite veggie. An oatmeal cookie, I could easily eat one and put them down...
And so what if a food makes you have to practice self control anyway? We are adults...
Natural instinct is to crave more of the unhealthy food and we all have to practice self control in order to not eat it. Since one gives a craving and one doesn't .. One is healthy and one isn't. My self control isn't any better or worse than anyone else's.. I am not overweight but do need to lose few pounds. No one finishes a salad with chicken and says I could really go for another one. Or even 1 portion of steak makes you too full to have or even crave another one. With cookies ,dessert, or junk food you do crave another one and you will want another one unless you tell yourself no and move on. This to me means there is a difference between the 2 groups of food.
I crave sweet cherries and can pop 4lbs of them in my mouth in one sitting if I allow myself. Are they then in the same category as cookies?0 -
tephanies1234 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
Yes, as I suggested in response to your other post you seem to be confusing calorie dense and unhealthy.
How I would explain it to anyone (and children aren't the audience on MFP, but I was able to grasp this as a child so I do not think it's that difficult) is that some foods are more calorie dense than others and some are more nutrient dense than others and that to have an overall healthy diet we need to consider a few things:
(1) that it have appropriate calories for one's goals (neither too high NOR too low);
(2) that it be balanced -- in other words, that it have enough in the various micro and macronutrients for your goals.
Whether a particular food adds to the overall health of the diet depends on what one needs given the above considerations.
Broccoli will likely further one's goals (if one is the average person in the US) more often than an oatmeal cookie, but it really depends. (The oatmeal cookie could have more fiber, it will have more fat, relevant if the person is doing some juicing thing, it obviously has more calories which are not inherently bad, etc.).
More significantly, an absolutely okay goal is to have a diet that is enjoyable and satisfying and if someone finds that an oatmeal cookie furthers this goal and is not inconsistent with any others, I don't see how it's unhealthy. It's not identical to broccoli (and no one has ever said it is) and IMO it's neither healthy nor unhealthy in itself. It's neutral.
And like others I do regularly eat some food more for its taste than its micronutrient content (after getting plenty of food which I enjoy for both). I don't see anything wrong with this. It still contributes calories I need for my day (at the moment my deficit is as high as I think is appropriate at my current weight), and my diet is overall very healthy. Also, I am not hungry -- I find the claim that eating one cookie will make you hungry for the day awfully odd, if one is otherwise eating sensibly and at a reasonable calorie level.
I'm not against cookies or desserts, I did not ban these out of my life. I am ok with eating 1 or 2 or whatever I want as long as it fits in with my goal. My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it. You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Control when you get older you need to be able to differentiate between these at any age.
There's a difference between an avocado and a piece of celery as well. Should the avocado be deemed unhealthy because it's calorie dense?
No but I am pretty sure an avocado doesn't make you crave another one immediately after finishing it. I am sure everyone has experienced cravings for another cookie/dessert and has to practice self control in order to not act on it.
And again, you are going back to your personal physiology which doesn't reflect on the food, it reflects on you. I would absolutely crave more avocado after one because they are delicious and probably my favorite veggie. An oatmeal cookie, I could easily eat one and put them down...
And so what if a food makes you have to practice self control anyway? We are adults...
Natural instinct is to crave more of the unhealthy food and we all have to practice self control in order to not eat it. Since one gives a craving and one doesn't .. One is healthy and one isn't. My self control isn't any better or worse than anyone else's.. I am not overweight but do need to lose few pounds. No one finishes a salad with chicken and says I could really go for another one. Or even 1 portion of steak makes you too full to have or even crave another one. With cookies ,dessert, or junk food you do crave another one and you will want another one unless you tell yourself no and move on. This to me means there is a difference between the 2 groups of food.
I crave sweet cherries and can pop 4lbs of them in my mouth in one sitting if I allow myself. Are they then in the same category as cookies?
Hell yea... cherries are the f'in bomb!!!! I hate how expensive they are in my area..
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tephanies1234 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
Yes, as I suggested in response to your other post you seem to be confusing calorie dense and unhealthy.
How I would explain it to anyone (and children aren't the audience on MFP, but I was able to grasp this as a child so I do not think it's that difficult) is that some foods are more calorie dense than others and some are more nutrient dense than others and that to have an overall healthy diet we need to consider a few things:
(1) that it have appropriate calories for one's goals (neither too high NOR too low);
(2) that it be balanced -- in other words, that it have enough in the various micro and macronutrients for your goals.
Whether a particular food adds to the overall health of the diet depends on what one needs given the above considerations.
Broccoli will likely further one's goals (if one is the average person in the US) more often than an oatmeal cookie, but it really depends. (The oatmeal cookie could have more fiber, it will have more fat, relevant if the person is doing some juicing thing, it obviously has more calories which are not inherently bad, etc.).
More significantly, an absolutely okay goal is to have a diet that is enjoyable and satisfying and if someone finds that an oatmeal cookie furthers this goal and is not inconsistent with any others, I don't see how it's unhealthy. It's not identical to broccoli (and no one has ever said it is) and IMO it's neither healthy nor unhealthy in itself. It's neutral.
And like others I do regularly eat some food more for its taste than its micronutrient content (after getting plenty of food which I enjoy for both). I don't see anything wrong with this. It still contributes calories I need for my day (at the moment my deficit is as high as I think is appropriate at my current weight), and my diet is overall very healthy. Also, I am not hungry -- I find the claim that eating one cookie will make you hungry for the day awfully odd, if one is otherwise eating sensibly and at a reasonable calorie level.
I'm not against cookies or desserts, I did not ban these out of my life. I am ok with eating 1 or 2 or whatever I want as long as it fits in with my goal. My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it. You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Control when you get older you need to be able to differentiate between these at any age.
There's a difference between an avocado and a piece of celery as well. Should the avocado be deemed unhealthy because it's calorie dense?
No but I am pretty sure an avocado doesn't make you crave another one immediately after finishing it. I am sure everyone has experienced cravings for another cookie/dessert and has to practice self control in order to not act on it.
And again, you are going back to your personal physiology which doesn't reflect on the food, it reflects on you. I would absolutely crave more avocado after one because they are delicious and probably my favorite veggie. An oatmeal cookie, I could easily eat one and put them down...
And so what if a food makes you have to practice self control anyway? We are adults...
Natural instinct is to crave more of the unhealthy food and we all have to practice self control in order to not eat it. Since one gives a craving and one doesn't .. One is healthy and one isn't. My self control isn't any better or worse than anyone else's.. I am not overweight but do need to lose few pounds. No one finishes a salad with chicken and says I could really go for another one. Or even 1 portion of steak makes you too full to have or even crave another one. With cookies ,dessert, or junk food you do crave another one and you will want another one unless you tell yourself no and move on. This to me means there is a difference between the 2 groups of food.
I crave sweet cherries and can pop 4lbs of them in my mouth in one sitting if I allow myself. Are they then in the same category as cookies?
And all I read is that you love popping cherries...0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Oatmeal cookies have a ton of butter and sugar so it would make sense why og poster was trying to find alternative recipes. If I eat fruit and top it with whipped cream it doesn't make it healthy because it's based with fruit. My point was there are 2 categories of food and it should be ok to differentiate between them... In my opinion that's the realistic way of looking at it. If you want to sugar coat it and say all foods are healthy then I guess that works for you.
again- what's inherently wrong with butter and sugar.
For that matter, the poster seems to think adding some whipped cream to fruit makes it unhealthy. What's wrong with fruit and whipped cream?
what's wrong with it? what's wrong is that I haven't had it in ages- that's what's wrong with it.
Get In MAI BELLAYE!0 -
It's noteworthy how you speak in absolutes and assumptions rather than fact and observables. You're "pretty sure "what makes others crave more ... you pontificate based on what you've deemed good/bad, healthy/unhealthy rather than based upon the nutritional profiles of the foods ... the reductio ad abusurdum of an all broccoli or all cookie diet. Foods are nothing more than a means for the human body to take in the required chemicals (macro and micro nutrients) to function. In a Shakespearean view, nothing is good nor evil ... the ratio of nutrients just differs.
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esmesqualor wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »MFP has a... thing about this. I have never seen a diet and fitness site like this before. People get criticized for avoiding excess sugar, junk food, highly processed items, etc. I may very occasionally permit myself such an item, but I'm not going to pretend it's *healthy* AKA high in nutrients, because it isn't! Folks will equate the "processing" of placing fruit or vegetables in a bag with the processing of mashing things to a pulp, adding a ton of preservatives, artificial flavors and salt, and frying it. To avoid criticism, the only thing to do is to eat healthy for your own sake but never mention it anywhere but on your own home page. *smh*
You're right. It's mind-boggling.
I agree, it's idiotic. Foods may not necessarily be Unhealthy (like oatmeal cookies in moderation) but they are certainly not healthy! Many people when attempting to lose weight (and other times) would like to make all of the calories that go in to their bodies actually nutritious. I think this is a great goal! Why put "empty" calories in to one's body when it can be avoided. Not to say that there should't be room for some treats now and then, just don't fool yourself in to thinking you are doing something good for yourself!
Because health is a lot more than what you put in your body. And sometimes the enjoyment of eating a cookie or ice cream goes a long way for mental health. Daily Klondikes have kept me in the game for a long time. When i cut them all out, while going paleo, i binged. So let me ask you what is more healthy. .. a diet that is 90% nutrient dense and 10% personal enjoyment or a diet where i binge?
So my "idotic" diet has been my success. And i know its success because all my numbers improve and i keep hitting PRs every lifting session.
Sure, I have the occasional cookie or ice cream myself. However, the comment we were responding to was about criticizing the desire to reduce excess sugar and pretending junk food is nutritionally healthy. Good for mental health is another issue
MFP has a... thing about this. I have never seen a diet and fitness site like this before. People get criticized for avoiding excess sugar, junk food, highly processed items, etc. I may very occasionally permit myself such an item, but I'm not going to pretend it's *healthy* AKA high in nutrients, because it isn't! Folks will equate the "processing" of placing fruit or vegetables in a bag with the processing of mashing things to a pulp, adding a ton of preservatives, artificial flavors and salt, and frying it. To avoid criticism, the only thing to do is to eat healthy for your own sake but never mention it anywhere but on your own home page. *smh*0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Oatmeal cookies have a ton of butter and sugar so it would make sense why og poster was trying to find alternative recipes. If I eat fruit and top it with whipped cream it doesn't make it healthy because it's based with fruit. My point was there are 2 categories of food and it should be ok to differentiate between them... In my opinion that's the realistic way of looking at it. If you want to sugar coat it and say all foods are healthy then I guess that works for you.
again- what's inherently wrong with butter and sugar.
For that matter, the poster seems to think adding some whipped cream to fruit makes it unhealthy. What's wrong with fruit and whipped cream?
what's wrong with it? what's wrong is that I haven't had it in ages- that's what's wrong with it.
Get In MAI BELLAYE!
my mom used to chop up bananas and serve with good size dollop of redi-whip. Yum. So good.0 -
Personally, if I don't do a Klondike for desert, I do grapes, strawberries and blueberries topped with coolwhip. I tend to do this if I am still hungry after dinner, especially on heavy lifting days.0
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