I called oatmeal cookies unhealthy and I got blasted - why?
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Back to beer, now?
May I respectfully submit:
Not a dessert beer by any means, but delicious and a stout, which seems to be on topic.
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Where do we draw that line? The answer to that question is a personal one as everyone is different so if they wanted to, because of health reasons or whatever, it is up to them where they need to draw this line that you speak of.
For me personally I need "two categories" so it is easier for me to work out a food plan for myself, that is what I can eat and how much of it.
That's perfectly fine when you're doing it for yourself at home. It's your own thing. Not so much when you're trying to give advice on a forum where people are seeking advice. Calling food 'healthy' and 'unhealthy' based on your own personal view of it doesn't help people who are trying to learn to eat for weight loss.
It's not her personal view - her doctor has advised to eat healthier, as does the American Diabetic Association, etc., in fact, everywhere but here on the MFP discussion boards do people understand the concept of healthy foods. While there is no one-size-fits-all definition, the concept being up for debate here is bizarre.mathjulz - Yes I can answer those questions to the best of my ability, with the hope of not being condemned should I use the "wrong words" to explain what I mean. Its not only about calorie counting or weight loss for me. I have to draw the line somewhere as my cholesterol is high and I am prediabetic. I have been warned by my doctor to cut down on fat and sugar intake to prevent getting Type 2 diabetes or (worse scenario) heart attack which I have a strong family history of ie my brother died at a young age from diabetes and he also suffered from heart attacks
I've also been advised to eat "healthier", lose weight and exercise. I love avocado and anything that comes from the ground or a tree I dont believe is unhealthy but I have to try to eat in moderation when it comes to high calorie or high fat/sugary foods. Fruit is OK but I cant have too much of it or it raises the sugar levels in my blood and makes me hungry for more sugar which can lead to overeating and cravings for cake. I love cake but if I eat too much of it will gradually become a health hazard for me. Whipped cream like all high calorie foods I try to have in moderation. Bread is processed, I have to limit my bread as it turns into sugar when it gets into my bloodstream. For a prediabetic, anything that turns into sugar in the body can lead to Type 2. Cookies contain a lot of butter and sugar OMG I love cookies but hopefully you might get the gist of what I am trying to say here by now.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »It's not her personal view - her doctor has advised to eat healthier, as does the American Diabetic Association, etc., in fact, everywhere but here on the MFP discussion boards do people understand the concept of healthy foods.
Deciding, out of context, that some foods are "healthy" and some are "unhealthy" is not an intelligent approach to learning to eat a healthy diet, and I would hope a registered dietitian would not approach it that way. If one did, I would have to conclude he or she was incompetent and not too bright.
This is because whether many foods contribute to health, detract from health, or are neutral depends on the overall diet, and what makes a diet healthy is not simply being composed of "healthy" (by which you likely mean nutrient dense) foods, but that they are present in sensible balances.
Therefore, rather than "bad" and "good" or "healthy" and "unhealthy," it is far more sensible to characterize them, at the least, as "calorie dense" or not and "nutrient dense" or not (some foods may be both calorie dense and nutrient dense, like avocado). Even more helpful would be to characterize them -- as any school child can, but apparently some adults need to make it simpler? -- as fruits, non-starchy vegetables, starches, meats (and eggs and dairy), legumes, fats, etc.
Then realize that your diet should be made up of a good (and ideally varied) balance of vegetables, sources of protein (like meat or legumes -- more complicated if one is vegetarian), and then add in other higher in nutrient foods (like whole grains or other starches like corn and fruit) to fill out the plate. Then, after making up the balance of your diet in this way, if you have some room left (as most non sedentary people should), have a lower nutrient "treat" if that makes you happy. Or don't if you don't want to.
Obviously modify that based on specific health considerations, but don't then become one of those annoying people who tell everyone else that "sugar" is always and everywhere unhealthy because you have diabetes or at one point grossly over-consumed it.
Calling foods "bad" and "good" or "healthy" and "unhealthy" is a problem (as well as just demonstrating that one is not very knowledgeable about nutrition), because lots of foods may be positive contributions to the diet in some circumstances but not in others. For example, meat -- an example I brought up before. Lots of meat will contain sat fat or otherwise be higher in calories and a vegetarian could correctly claim it's not necessary. But for most meat probably has a positive effect, and that would even include red meat due to such things as iron, although I personally try to limit my consumption of red meat somewhat (because I love it and would overconsume it if I did not). Saying it's "unhealthy" and should rarely be eaten is not correct, but neither is it correct to say it's always healthy."
Indeed, even broccoli is not always "healthy" in that if you eat it to the exclusion of certain other things you will have a poor diet.
I'm not much bothered by calling foods like vegetables "healthy" as I think people just mean "high in micronutrients" and there's little risk of most people (including those most likely to be ignorant about nutrition) overconsuming it. But we do see examples of why it's bad and foolish to focus on "healthy" vs. "unhealthy" as opposed to a more intelligent understanding of the topic. One is the people who try to decide what the "healthiest" foods are and to only eat those, when getting a variety is probably better and there's no way to say that kale is better than chicken (or better than spinach, for that matter). Another is the people who think if fruits and veg are good then ONLY fruits and veg must be ideal (or even a detox).
Therefore, I think it better promotes healthy eating to actually be accurate in our discussion and not give in to dumb formulations like "healthy foods" vs. "unhealthy foods" or "bad foods" vs. "good foods."
If people want to say "high in micronutrient"="healthy," fine, whatever, but it's still important to acknowledge that many foods have other benefits (protein vs. micros) or are lower in nutrients but still contribute to goals (eating rice or pasta may help with a workout or make other foods eaten with it more appealing) or are lower in nutrients but still not unhealthy unless overconsumed (like a piece of pie).0 -
Okay, sorry for the rant. I just wanted to start Friday off right, and besides I'm sick and tired of the points about "healthy" and "unhealthy" being portrayed -- disingenuously -- as if they were intended to argue against a healthy overall diet when I think they are quite important to actually constructing a health diet and understanding how to do so properly.
Back to beer!0 -
Sorry to derail the beer discussion, this is not chocolaty but tangy. It's super good.0 -
queenliz99 wrote: »
Sorry to derail the beer discussion, this is not chocolaty but tangy. It's super good.
I will drink this all night and fight you if you try to take the last bottle!0 -
This is my personal favorite. It tastes best at warm temperatures instead of chilled. Super malty flavor.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »
Sorry to derail the beer discussion, this is not chocolaty but tangy. It's super good.
I will drink this all night and fight you if you try to take the last bottle!
Your on!! This brewery is 10 driving minutes from my house and I could walk home if I needed to. LOL0 -
Yes but you are still missing the point. Eating healthier is a product of the diet viewed as a whole, not it's individual pieces. Eating healthier does not mean (barring a medical condition) permanent elimination of certain foods. Many junk, crap, garbage and poison foods (as clean eaters would like to call them) can be included as part of a healthy diet. You really can eat whatever you want, just not as much as you want...kshama2001 wrote: »It's not her personal view - her doctor has advised to eat healthier
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speaking of beer, here are the results from my beerbrewing attic...
Prost!
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Yes but you are still missing the point. Eating healthier is a product of the diet viewed as a whole, not it's individual pieces. Eating healthier does not mean (barring a medical condition) permanent elimination of certain foods. Many junk, crap, garbage and poison foods (as clean eaters would like to call them) can be included as part of a healthy diet. You really can eat whatever you want, just not as much as you want...kshama2001 wrote: »It's not her personal view - her doctor has advised to eat healthier
Wouldn't it be nice if instead of focusing on what we have to restrict or eliminate in order to improve our health, if we all just started advising people on things to add to their overall diet? If people start adding more of the lean meats, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, dairy, all those things that I think most of us can implicitly agree are nutrient dense "healthy" foods, then they would likely have less room, but still some room, for the treats. They may still be cutting down on the portions or the types of calorie dense foods, but instead of focusing on the negative of restriction or "unhealthy" I wish we could all see that most people on Team Clean and Team Moderation are eating fairly similar diets, it is just the phrasing of how we describe our diets and the advice we give that differs.
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WinoGelato wrote: »
Yes but you are still missing the point. Eating healthier is a product of the diet viewed as a whole, not it's individual pieces. Eating healthier does not mean (barring a medical condition) permanent elimination of certain foods. Many junk, crap, garbage and poison foods (as clean eaters would like to call them) can be included as part of a healthy diet. You really can eat whatever you want, just not as much as you want...kshama2001 wrote: »It's not her personal view - her doctor has advised to eat healthier
Wouldn't it be nice if instead of focusing on what we have to restrict or eliminate in order to improve our health, if we all just started advising people on things to add to their overall diet? If people start adding more of the lean meats, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, dairy, all those things that I think most of us can implicitly agree are nutrient dense "healthy" foods, then they would likely have less room, but still some room, for the treats. They may still be cutting down on the portions or the types of calorie dense foods, but instead of focusing on the negative of restriction or "unhealthy" I wish we could all see that most people on Team Clean and Team Moderation are eating fairly similar diets, it is just the phrasing of how we describe our diets and the advice we give that differs.
Absolutely!
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tincanonastring wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »
Yup. This shake is from the Alamo Drafthouse, which also originates in Austin.
I love the Alamo! Hahaha... I was there in April and we caught a late screening of Half Baked on the 20th...
Austin is my 3rd favorite city in the country!
so what you're saying is when I go visit Austin in 2 weeks I need one of these Alamo Drafhouse things?0 -
Also Threadgill's and El Arroyo.tincanonastring wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »
Yup. This shake is from the Alamo Drafthouse, which also originates in Austin.
I love the Alamo! Hahaha... I was there in April and we caught a late screening of Half Baked on the 20th...
Austin is my 3rd favorite city in the country!
so what you're saying is when I go visit Austin in 2 weeks I need one of these Alamo Drafhouse things?
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
Also Threadgill's and El Arroyo.tincanonastring wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »
Yup. This shake is from the Alamo Drafthouse, which also originates in Austin.
I love the Alamo! Hahaha... I was there in April and we caught a late screening of Half Baked on the 20th...
Austin is my 3rd favorite city in the country!
so what you're saying is when I go visit Austin in 2 weeks I need one of these Alamo Drafhouse things?
Omit visiting Jester King Brewery at your own risk.
They make some awesome sour beers.
http://jesterkingbrewery.com/beers/
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tincanonastring wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »
Yup. This shake is from the Alamo Drafthouse, which also originates in Austin.
I love the Alamo! Hahaha... I was there in April and we caught a late screening of Half Baked on the 20th...
Austin is my 3rd favorite city in the country!
so what you're saying is when I go visit Austin in 2 weeks I need one of these Alamo Drafhouse things?
It's a movie theater with good food, good beer, and people get kicked out if they talk or use cell phones.
I also highly recommend Bangers. They make their own sausage, and tons of beer available. The duck, fig, and bacon sausage was amazing.0 -
Here's an example I encounter every week on this board. A newly diagnosed diabetic or pre-diabetic asks for a list of forbidden foods.
Doesn't work that way.
The diabetic lifestyle is all about balance, eating all foods in proportion to prevent energy spikes. Most people handle this without even thinking about it with their own pancreatic supplies of insulin. Diabetics must learn to manage this through diet, exercise, and medications if required. So all foods are in. Balanced. Proportioned. And regularly supplied.
Here's another example; fats. They're very high calorie but they also help along many bodily functions, and are carriers for our fat soluble vitamins. We must watch the fats because they can double or triple our calorie counts so easily, but they are also necessary. Are they good or bad? Healthy or unhealthy? False dichotomies. They fit, in context.
And a final analogy. We use keys, shoes and hammers in a given week. They all have a particular function, and are good at what they are designed to do. However, if we borrow a shoe to hammer in a nail, or hammer our way through a door, we might declare that the tool is "bad" for the task at hand. Or if we declare hammers (carbs) "bad" and we can function perfectly well without them (with a little extra effort and pre-planning) we've eliminated a very useful tool for no good reason.
Now I might have to take up beer. Is there a fruity girly beer that doesn't taste of hops?0 -
Context matters.
For example, if we look up the definition of the word, "slag" we could get a fairly tame statement of: "stony waste matter separated from metals during the smelting or refining of ore."
On other hand, if you look up "slag" at Urban Dictionary, you'll get a very different definition.
As a term, "healthy" relies heavily on context. Describing the relative health of common foods without a context becomes problematic.
To me there is nothing particularly unhealthy about *an* oatmeal cookie. Thus, there is nothing particularly unhealthy about oatmeal cookies in general. If I randomly developed an allergy to oatmeal, I suspect my view would change, but I wouldn't expect anyone else's to also change with mine.0 -
Here's an example I encounter every week on this board. A newly diagnosed diabetic or pre-diabetic asks for a list of forbidden foods.
Doesn't work that way.
The diabetic lifestyle is all about balance, eating all foods in proportion to prevent energy spikes. Most people handle this without even thinking about it with their own pancreatic supplies of insulin. Diabetics must learn to manage this through diet, exercise, and medications if required. So all foods are in. Balanced. Proportioned. And regularly supplied.
Here's another example; fats. They're very high calorie but they also help along many bodily functions, and are carriers for our fat soluble vitamins. We must watch the fats because they can double or triple our calorie counts so easily, but they are also necessary. Are they good or bad? Healthy or unhealthy? False dichotomies. They fit, in context.
And a final analogy. We use keys, shoes and hammers in a given week. They all have a particular function, and are good at what they are designed to do. However, if we borrow a shoe to hammer in a nail, or hammer our way through a door, we might declare that the tool is "bad" for the task at hand. Or if we declare hammers (carbs) "bad" and we can function perfectly well without them (with a little extra effort and pre-planning) we've eliminated a very useful tool for no good reason.
Now I might have to take up beer. Is there a fruity girly beer that doesn't taste of hops?
100% agreed. The only "forbidden" foods are the ones we personally forbid, whether it's because of the food no longer being worth the calories (or, for me, the insulin I would need to take to cover it. I'm looking at you, regular soda), a medical reason to avoid it, or even a ridiculous reason like Mary Sue saying xyz foods cause fat gain. Most of the time, I view foods based off how they can meet my macronutrient and micronutrient goals -a piece of chocolate can certainly be "healthy" for me if it helps me meet my fat and iron goals.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »
Yup. This shake is from the Alamo Drafthouse, which also originates in Austin.
I love the Alamo! Hahaha... I was there in April and we caught a late screening of Half Baked on the 20th...
Austin is my 3rd favorite city in the country!
so what you're saying is when I go visit Austin in 2 weeks I need one of these Alamo Drafhouse things?
It's a movie theater with good food, good beer, and people get kicked out if they talk or use cell phones.
I also highly recommend Bangers. They make their own sausage, and tons of beer available. The duck, fig, and bacon sausage was amazing.
oh well I won't have time for a movie theater unfortunately. I am there for a dance intensive- so I'm balls to the wall Saturday- Sunday- Monday. Show on Saturday night and I suspect I'm going to be super beat up from the workshop- but I'll see what I can do Friday night since I'm there with nothing to do.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »
Yup. This shake is from the Alamo Drafthouse, which also originates in Austin.
I love the Alamo! Hahaha... I was there in April and we caught a late screening of Half Baked on the 20th...
Austin is my 3rd favorite city in the country!
so what you're saying is when I go visit Austin in 2 weeks I need one of these Alamo Drafhouse things?
It's a movie theater with good food, good beer, and people get kicked out if they talk or use cell phones.
I also highly recommend Bangers. They make their own sausage, and tons of beer available. The duck, fig, and bacon sausage was amazing.
Alamo also has all you can eat popcorn for like $6. We have one within a mile of my house.
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WinoGelato wrote: »
Yes but you are still missing the point. Eating healthier is a product of the diet viewed as a whole, not it's individual pieces. Eating healthier does not mean (barring a medical condition) permanent elimination of certain foods. Many junk, crap, garbage and poison foods (as clean eaters would like to call them) can be included as part of a healthy diet. You really can eat whatever you want, just not as much as you want...kshama2001 wrote: »It's not her personal view - her doctor has advised to eat healthier
Wouldn't it be nice if instead of focusing on what we have to restrict or eliminate in order to improve our health, if we all just started advising people on things to add to their overall diet? If people start adding more of the lean meats, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, dairy, all those things that I think most of us can implicitly agree are nutrient dense "healthy" foods, then they would likely have less room, but still some room, for the treats. They may still be cutting down on the portions or the types of calorie dense foods, but instead of focusing on the negative of restriction or "unhealthy" I wish we could all see that most people on Team Clean and Team Moderation are eating fairly similar diets, it is just the phrasing of how we describe our diets and the advice we give that differs.
Yes, this is what I think the best approach is, by far. The people who seem to have the most trouble are those who claim not to like "healthy foods" -- in other words, the ones not creating an overall healthy, balanced diet as the foundation, whatever they do about "treats." Arguing over whether one has "treats" or not or making it all about cutting things as, as if that were the key to health, seems to me to miss the forest for the trees. I often think people go on about cutting things out because that seems easier than trying to figure out what a healthy diet is (or how to create meals consistent with that).0 -
Yes, I have a personal short forbidden list, and I characterize them as "too expensive" calorie-wise. This includes poutine and a few forbidden restaurants (Carl's Jr., been to twice in the last three years, and Red Robin's).
I made a personal choice to be a food adventurist, and actively include new foods to try. I've been on this weight loss enterprise for three years now, and no way I could have made it if I hated the foods I was eating every day.0 -
Here's an example I encounter every week on this board. A newly diagnosed diabetic or pre-diabetic asks for a list of forbidden foods.
Doesn't work that way.
The diabetic lifestyle is all about balance, eating all foods in proportion to prevent energy spikes. Most people handle this without even thinking about it with their own pancreatic supplies of insulin. Diabetics must learn to manage this through diet, exercise, and medications if required. So all foods are in. Balanced. Proportioned. And regularly supplied.
Here's another example; fats. They're very high calorie but they also help along many bodily functions, and are carriers for our fat soluble vitamins. We must watch the fats because they can double or triple our calorie counts so easily, but they are also necessary. Are they good or bad? Healthy or unhealthy? False dichotomies. They fit, in context.
And a final analogy. We use keys, shoes and hammers in a given week. They all have a particular function, and are good at what they are designed to do. However, if we borrow a shoe to hammer in a nail, or hammer our way through a door, we might declare that the tool is "bad" for the task at hand. Or if we declare hammers (carbs) "bad" and we can function perfectly well without them (with a little extra effort and pre-planning) we've eliminated a very useful tool for no good reason.
Now I might have to take up beer. Is there a fruity girly beer that doesn't taste of hops?
Try Belgian.
Or Hacker Pschorr Weiss with a lemon.0 -
@lemurcat12 , added to my bucket list.0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Here's an example I encounter every week on this board. A newly diagnosed diabetic or pre-diabetic asks for a list of forbidden foods.
Doesn't work that way.
The diabetic lifestyle is all about balance, eating all foods in proportion to prevent energy spikes. Most people handle this without even thinking about it with their own pancreatic supplies of insulin. Diabetics must learn to manage this through diet, exercise, and medications if required. So all foods are in. Balanced. Proportioned. And regularly supplied.
Here's another example; fats. They're very high calorie but they also help along many bodily functions, and are carriers for our fat soluble vitamins. We must watch the fats because they can double or triple our calorie counts so easily, but they are also necessary. Are they good or bad? Healthy or unhealthy? False dichotomies. They fit, in context.
And a final analogy. We use keys, shoes and hammers in a given week. They all have a particular function, and are good at what they are designed to do. However, if we borrow a shoe to hammer in a nail, or hammer our way through a door, we might declare that the tool is "bad" for the task at hand. Or if we declare hammers (carbs) "bad" and we can function perfectly well without them (with a little extra effort and pre-planning) we've eliminated a very useful tool for no good reason.
Now I might have to take up beer. Is there a fruity girly beer that doesn't taste of hops?
Try Belgian.
Or Hacker Pschorr Weiss with a lemon.
Agreed. I also find berliner-weiss very drinkable, and it's ever so slightly sour. I've turned several of my friends onto it as a style.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »
Yup. This shake is from the Alamo Drafthouse, which also originates in Austin.
I love the Alamo! Hahaha... I was there in April and we caught a late screening of Half Baked on the 20th...
Austin is my 3rd favorite city in the country!
so what you're saying is when I go visit Austin in 2 weeks I need one of these Alamo Drafhouse things?
It's a movie theater with good food, good beer, and people get kicked out if they talk or use cell phones.
I also highly recommend Bangers. They make their own sausage, and tons of beer available. The duck, fig, and bacon sausage was amazing.
oh well I won't have time for a movie theater unfortunately. I am there for a dance intensive- so I'm balls to the wall Saturday- Sunday- Monday. Show on Saturday night and I suspect I'm going to be super beat up from the workshop- but I'll see what I can do Friday night since I'm there with nothing to do.
There's a great pizza place called Home Slice on South Congress, just outside of downtown Austin. You can get some slices, grab a beer (good beer, too) and sit outside. ****ing awesome. My buddy runs the joint.0 -
People are passionate about their foods, you say something about one of their favorites you may as well say something about their momma. And if you even look at cornbread wrong I will hunt you down like a scurvy dog! ;-)
The main things to take in here is that in moderation you can have a little of anything you want, and don’t worry about what others are saying. So with that said don’t worry about anything I just said.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »KittensMaster wrote: »MFP has a... thing about this. I have never seen a diet and fitness site like this before. People get criticized for avoiding excess sugar, junk food, highly processed items, etc. I may very occasionally permit myself such an item, but I'm not going to pretend it's *healthy* AKA high in nutrients, because it isn't! Folks will equate the "processing" of placing fruit or vegetables in a bag with the processing of mashing things to a pulp, adding a ton of preservatives, artificial flavors and salt, and frying it. To avoid criticism, the only thing to do is to eat healthy for your own sake but never mention it anywhere but on your own home page. *smh*
Exactly how I see many on MFP
Just learn to ignore them.
The conversations defending eating those junk foods just don't happen at the gym.
You should come to my running club track sessions - we're all amazing home bakers and sometimes we bring cookies and cake for after training.
The junior track coach gave me an amazing recipe for strawberry crumble the other day.
In my opinion, 'high in nutrients' is important for health if you're restricting calories, because if you're not eating much you have to make what you do eat count. If you're very active (like some people at the gym, perhaps), you're probably eating a lot more food and some of it can easily be cookies, as you're still getting all the other nutrients you need elsewhere in your diet.
Yeah, almost every group bike or run around here ends up intentionally at brunch or a bakery. Same with many of my tri club workouts.
It is true people generally don't waste time "defending" what they are eating, because there's no need to.
Yeah, there's a bike club (serious riders in great shape, too!) around here that starts and ends every Tuesday night at a bar on the outside of town. They ride for awhile, then come back and have drinks and eat BBQ. My kind of club!
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This discussion has been closed.
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