Do you believe sugar cravings can be similar to drug addictions?
Replies
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cmcollins001 wrote: »Ok, here's a serious comment/question:
If sugar cravings and drug addictions are the same/similar - does a baby born from a mother who is suffering from sugar cravings going to have the same addiction? Babies born from drug addicted mothers often show signs of addiction themselves, does this hold true with sugar addiction?
Well...I recently watched a show (Nature of Things, David Suzuki, my genetics hero) where they discussed how babies are affected by what the mother does during her pregnancy. Epigenetics I think it's called. Feelings of stress, and even eating patterns can affect the unborn infant. After watching that show I felt a fair bit of guilt about how I allowed myself to remain under the direction of a "horrible boss" during my second pregnancy. My second child has had weight issues since she was a toddler despite the fact that the rest of the family didn't for the most part, (my weight has been up and down but mostly down), and we kept anything you might consider to be "junk food" out of the house.
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cmcollins001 wrote: »Ok, here's a serious comment/question:
If sugar cravings and drug addictions are the same/similar - does a baby born from a mother who is suffering from sugar cravings going to have the same addiction? Babies born from drug addicted mothers often show signs of addiction themselves, does this hold true with sugar addiction?
Does that hold true with nicotine (a drug) addiction?0 -
I don't think John was asking that if you boil it down to the lowest common denominator, do habits, craving, and enjoyable things have a commonality? It's a trivial question.goldthistime wrote: »Drinking alcohol to excess actually causes a physical change to the cells in the body. When drinking is stopped suddenly, the person goes through an intensely painful process called delirium tremens. The person will hallucinate, vomit, urinate and defecate without control, drool, and often need to be intubated because of the excessive suffering. People get intensely violent, even toward people they care about deeply. the cells in the body are affecting the person on a physical level as they are in a severe need of the substance that changed them in the first place.
People who eat a lot of sugar for a long time, and then stop eating it suddenly don't do any of that. Just because they get a little shaky from lack of energy or get a headache doesn't mean they have any understanding of the severe effects of any of the physical torture any addict suffers. Sugar doesn't change the cells of the body in any way, other than adding additional fat cells if eaten to excess.
On this I agree with you 100%. You can't compare the magnitude of sugar withdrawal (if it exists at all) with alcohol withdrawal. But withdrawal from alcohol is the most extreme of all addictions, if this were your only criteria to determine addiction, (I've read other posts you've written so I know it's not), other recognized addictions might not qualify either. Gambling is the easy one to throw out there. Surely it is less offensive to consider possible withdrawal effects from abstaining from sugary foods than from abstaining from gambling. But I have also read that cocaine withdrawal symptoms are very mild, and that it is much more of a behavioral addiction (as PeacyCarol suggests sugar cravings may be a result of) than alcohol.
But the OP did not ask us if we believed that sugar was an addictive substance. He asked if sugar cravings are similar to a drug addiction. The idea seems to me to be a good middle ground. Not addictive in a classical sense, but those damn cravings can have similarities with addiction.
And to answer an earlier posters question, what's the benefit of viewing sugar cravings in a similar way to a drug addiction, my answer, in part, is that we may be able to borrow from the study and research that has been done on addictions and apply it to our own struggles. Below, for example, is an excerpt from Moderation Management that may be of interest to some.
"Habits and urges go hand in hand. In fact, many people in the throes of an addictive behavior problem, whether it is overeating, drug use or alcohol abuse, claim that they derive no pleasure from their habit--that it is nothing but the relentless craving that fuels ongoing addictive behavior. What is usually most difficult for people when changing a bad habit is coping with the sometimes relentless urges. The initial days of a habit kicking plan can be exhausting as urges dominate thinking and interfere with daily routine. Many people give up change efforts because they feel that there is no way they can function without their habit as the urges interfere too much with quality of life.
It is important to remember that urges, in and of themselves, are normal. We experience craving in varying degrees every day. And because your habit has been important to you for a long time, it may be unreasonable to expect urges to vanish completely. What is hoped is that you will come to experience urges with less frequency and that when they are experienced you will be able to react in a way that avoids relapse.
The "three Ds" can be helpful in coping with urges and craving, 'whether these urges are related to alcohol or drug use, overeating, tobacco use or any habit you are attempting to change. The Ds stand for Decatastrophizing, Disputing expectancies and Distracting."
Follow the link for the rest...
http://www.moderation.org/faq/coping.shtml
And finally, although it have by no means made up my mind, my link to a moderation management site might suggest I am on the side of moderation versus abstention. I'm exploring moderation, but right now I lean towards abstaining from your trigger foods.
As has been said, the human brain does tend to have a reward center and pattern that applies to things as diverse as
Lighting up a crack pipe
Eatting sugar
Petting puppies
Smiling at people
Remembering that gold star your teacher gave you in 3rd grade
Knifing your dealer so you can take his whole stash
Thinking about what you're going to order at KFC
Being intimate
Cranking the handle on the one armed bandit and hoping you get 3 cherries this time, this time for sure, I know it, stop telling me the odds are fixed, I know my luck is different time, you downer
The smell of really nice laundry detergent
etc...
I wanted to comment on " ...do habits, craving, and enjoyable things have a commonality? It's a trivial question."
Maybe it's not a trivial question. Use/abuse of a substance is thought to fall along a continuum. There are times when I felt as though I was going to comfort foods so often and in such ridiculous quantity that I drew parallels to substance abuse. I was, in my mind, abusing cake and candy. But just as there is a distinction between alcoholics and problem drinkers, there is acknowledgement that problem drinking is, well, a problem. That "moderation management" site I linked to earlier was meant for problem drinkers, not alcoholics. The distinction was that once you are an alcoholic proper, forget about moderation and aim for abstinence. In fact, even for problem drinkers their counsel was that if abstinence was an option for you, you should go that route. I draw the parallels again to how here there has been a faction that argues for as much of an abstinence of sugary treats as can be realistically managed, where others argue that learning moderation is a far better path.
Here is an excerpt about the distinction of actual abuse along that continuum from alcoholrehab.com
The continuum of substance abuse is a term that is used to refer to the stages of substance use and abuse. The use of a drug can be only labeled drug abuse when the user becomes dysfunctional as a result of their use. If a person can maintain healthy relationships, does not suffer financial hardships, does not become unwell or is harmed from the use of the substance, then the use is maintained as drug use and not abuse. However, if a person begins to exhibit adverse reactions from a drug, has considerable problems with relationships with others, acts in a harmful, dangerous or reckless manner and begins to use significant amounts of energy acquiring and using a drug, then it can be considered that the individual has a drug abuse problem.
http://alcoholrehab.com/drug-addiction/continuum-of-substance-use-and-abuse/
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If you're seriously going to try to link any of this to sugar cravings, you might want to reconsider. If you wanted to discuss eating disorders, that's an entirely different realm altogether. BED, anorexia, bulimia, etc, are all in a class completely separate and are actual disorders/mental diseases.goldthistime wrote: »
I don't think John was asking that if you boil it down to the lowest common denominator, do habits, craving, and enjoyable things have a commonality? It's a trivial question.goldthistime wrote: »Drinking alcohol to excess actually causes a physical change to the cells in the body. When drinking is stopped suddenly, the person goes through an intensely painful process called delirium tremens. The person will hallucinate, vomit, urinate and defecate without control, drool, and often need to be intubated because of the excessive suffering. People get intensely violent, even toward people they care about deeply. the cells in the body are affecting the person on a physical level as they are in a severe need of the substance that changed them in the first place.
People who eat a lot of sugar for a long time, and then stop eating it suddenly don't do any of that. Just because they get a little shaky from lack of energy or get a headache doesn't mean they have any understanding of the severe effects of any of the physical torture any addict suffers. Sugar doesn't change the cells of the body in any way, other than adding additional fat cells if eaten to excess.
On this I agree with you 100%. You can't compare the magnitude of sugar withdrawal (if it exists at all) with alcohol withdrawal. But withdrawal from alcohol is the most extreme of all addictions, if this were your only criteria to determine addiction, (I've read other posts you've written so I know it's not), other recognized addictions might not qualify either. Gambling is the easy one to throw out there. Surely it is less offensive to consider possible withdrawal effects from abstaining from sugary foods than from abstaining from gambling. But I have also read that cocaine withdrawal symptoms are very mild, and that it is much more of a behavioral addiction (as PeacyCarol suggests sugar cravings may be a result of) than alcohol.
But the OP did not ask us if we believed that sugar was an addictive substance. He asked if sugar cravings are similar to a drug addiction. The idea seems to me to be a good middle ground. Not addictive in a classical sense, but those damn cravings can have similarities with addiction.
And to answer an earlier posters question, what's the benefit of viewing sugar cravings in a similar way to a drug addiction, my answer, in part, is that we may be able to borrow from the study and research that has been done on addictions and apply it to our own struggles. Below, for example, is an excerpt from Moderation Management that may be of interest to some.
"Habits and urges go hand in hand. In fact, many people in the throes of an addictive behavior problem, whether it is overeating, drug use or alcohol abuse, claim that they derive no pleasure from their habit--that it is nothing but the relentless craving that fuels ongoing addictive behavior. What is usually most difficult for people when changing a bad habit is coping with the sometimes relentless urges. The initial days of a habit kicking plan can be exhausting as urges dominate thinking and interfere with daily routine. Many people give up change efforts because they feel that there is no way they can function without their habit as the urges interfere too much with quality of life.
It is important to remember that urges, in and of themselves, are normal. We experience craving in varying degrees every day. And because your habit has been important to you for a long time, it may be unreasonable to expect urges to vanish completely. What is hoped is that you will come to experience urges with less frequency and that when they are experienced you will be able to react in a way that avoids relapse.
The "three Ds" can be helpful in coping with urges and craving, 'whether these urges are related to alcohol or drug use, overeating, tobacco use or any habit you are attempting to change. The Ds stand for Decatastrophizing, Disputing expectancies and Distracting."
Follow the link for the rest...
http://www.moderation.org/faq/coping.shtml
And finally, although it have by no means made up my mind, my link to a moderation management site might suggest I am on the side of moderation versus abstention. I'm exploring moderation, but right now I lean towards abstaining from your trigger foods.
As has been said, the human brain does tend to have a reward center and pattern that applies to things as diverse as
Lighting up a crack pipe
Eatting sugar
Petting puppies
Smiling at people
Remembering that gold star your teacher gave you in 3rd grade
Knifing your dealer so you can take his whole stash
Thinking about what you're going to order at KFC
Being intimate
Cranking the handle on the one armed bandit and hoping you get 3 cherries this time, this time for sure, I know it, stop telling me the odds are fixed, I know my luck is different time, you downer
The smell of really nice laundry detergent
etc...
I wanted to comment on " ...do habits, craving, and enjoyable things have a commonality? It's a trivial question."
Maybe it's not a trivial question. Use/abuse of a substance is thought to fall along a continuum. There are times when I felt as though I was going to comfort foods so often and in such ridiculous quantity that I drew parallels to substance abuse. I was, in my mind, abusing cake and candy. But just as there is a distinction between alcoholics and problem drinkers, there is acknowledgement that problem drinking is, well, a problem. That "moderation management" site I linked to earlier was meant for problem drinkers, not alcoholics. The distinction was that once you are an alcoholic proper, forget about moderation and aim for abstinence. In fact, even for problem drinkers their counsel was that if abstinence was an option for you, you should go that route. I draw the parallels again to how here there has been a faction that argues for as much of an abstinence of sugary treats as can be realistically managed, where others argue that learning moderation is a far better path.
Here is an excerpt about the distinction of actual abuse along that continuum from alcoholrehab.com
The continuum of substance abuse is a term that is used to refer to the stages of substance use and abuse. The use of a drug can be only labeled drug abuse when the user becomes dysfunctional as a result of their use. If a person can maintain healthy relationships, does not suffer financial hardships, does not become unwell or is harmed from the use of the substance, then the use is maintained as drug use and not abuse. However, if a person begins to exhibit adverse reactions from a drug, has considerable problems with relationships with others, acts in a harmful, dangerous or reckless manner and begins to use significant amounts of energy acquiring and using a drug, then it can be considered that the individual has a drug abuse problem.
http://alcoholrehab.com/drug-addiction/continuum-of-substance-use-and-abuse/
Please don't try to connect them in any way to something like a craving for sugar.
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Things happening while pregnant are usually just consider in utero / environmental factors.goldthistime wrote: »cmcollins001 wrote: »Ok, here's a serious comment/question:
If sugar cravings and drug addictions are the same/similar - does a baby born from a mother who is suffering from sugar cravings going to have the same addiction? Babies born from drug addicted mothers often show signs of addiction themselves, does this hold true with sugar addiction?
Well...I recently watched a show (Nature of Things, David Suzuki, my genetics hero) where they discussed how babies are affected by what the mother does during her pregnancy. Epigenetics I think it's called. Feelings of stress, and even eating patterns can affect the unborn infant. After watching that show I felt a fair bit of guilt about how I allowed myself to remain under the direction of a "horrible boss" during my second pregnancy. My second child has had weight issues since she was a toddler despite the fact that the rest of the family didn't for the most part, (my weight has been up and down but mostly down), and we kept anything you might consider to be "junk food" out of the house.
Epigenetics is a bit weirder. It is increased or decreased expression of genes that is heritable but doesn't actually inherit from genes themselves. I think the mechanisms are not fully understood.
But odd cases are things like a male mouse that is raised in a high stress environment will produce offspring (and even grandkids (grandrats?)) that exhibit the kinds of behaviors exhibited by stressed rats even when in a non-stressful environment.0 -
Epigenetics is a fascinating field. At the very least the differentiation of tissues and cells from a single DNA code is awesome.
Things happening while pregnant are usually just consider in utero / environmental factors.goldthistime wrote: »cmcollins001 wrote: »Ok, here's a serious comment/question:
If sugar cravings and drug addictions are the same/similar - does a baby born from a mother who is suffering from sugar cravings going to have the same addiction? Babies born from drug addicted mothers often show signs of addiction themselves, does this hold true with sugar addiction?
Well...I recently watched a show (Nature of Things, David Suzuki, my genetics hero) where they discussed how babies are affected by what the mother does during her pregnancy. Epigenetics I think it's called. Feelings of stress, and even eating patterns can affect the unborn infant. After watching that show I felt a fair bit of guilt about how I allowed myself to remain under the direction of a "horrible boss" during my second pregnancy. My second child has had weight issues since she was a toddler despite the fact that the rest of the family didn't for the most part, (my weight has been up and down but mostly down), and we kept anything you might consider to be "junk food" out of the house.
Epigenetics is a bit weirder. It is increased or decreased expression of genes that is heritable but doesn't actually inherit from genes themselves. I think the mechanisms are not fully understood.
But odd cases are things like a male mouse that is raised in a high stress environment will produce offspring (and even grandkids (grandrats?)) that exhibit the kinds of behaviors exhibited by stressed rats even when in a non-stressful environment.
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If you're seriously going to try to link any of this to sugar cravings, you might want to reconsider. If you wanted to discuss eating disorders, that's an entirely different realm altogether. BED, anorexia, bulimia, etc, are all in a class completely separate and are actual disorders/mental diseases.goldthistime wrote: »
I don't think John was asking that if you boil it down to the lowest common denominator, do habits, craving, and enjoyable things have a commonality? It's a trivial question.goldthistime wrote: »Drinking alcohol to excess actually causes a physical change to the cells in the body. When drinking is stopped suddenly, the person goes through an intensely painful process called delirium tremens. The person will hallucinate, vomit, urinate and defecate without control, drool, and often need to be intubated because of the excessive suffering. People get intensely violent, even toward people they care about deeply. the cells in the body are affecting the person on a physical level as they are in a severe need of the substance that changed them in the first place.
People who eat a lot of sugar for a long time, and then stop eating it suddenly don't do any of that. Just because they get a little shaky from lack of energy or get a headache doesn't mean they have any understanding of the severe effects of any of the physical torture any addict suffers. Sugar doesn't change the cells of the body in any way, other than adding additional fat cells if eaten to excess.
On this I agree with you 100%. You can't compare the magnitude of sugar withdrawal (if it exists at all) with alcohol withdrawal. But withdrawal from alcohol is the most extreme of all addictions, if this were your only criteria to determine addiction, (I've read other posts you've written so I know it's not), other recognized addictions might not qualify either. Gambling is the easy one to throw out there. Surely it is less offensive to consider possible withdrawal effects from abstaining from sugary foods than from abstaining from gambling. But I have also read that cocaine withdrawal symptoms are very mild, and that it is much more of a behavioral addiction (as PeacyCarol suggests sugar cravings may be a result of) than alcohol.
But the OP did not ask us if we believed that sugar was an addictive substance. He asked if sugar cravings are similar to a drug addiction. The idea seems to me to be a good middle ground. Not addictive in a classical sense, but those damn cravings can have similarities with addiction.
And to answer an earlier posters question, what's the benefit of viewing sugar cravings in a similar way to a drug addiction, my answer, in part, is that we may be able to borrow from the study and research that has been done on addictions and apply it to our own struggles. Below, for example, is an excerpt from Moderation Management that may be of interest to some.
"Habits and urges go hand in hand. In fact, many people in the throes of an addictive behavior problem, whether it is overeating, drug use or alcohol abuse, claim that they derive no pleasure from their habit--that it is nothing but the relentless craving that fuels ongoing addictive behavior. What is usually most difficult for people when changing a bad habit is coping with the sometimes relentless urges. The initial days of a habit kicking plan can be exhausting as urges dominate thinking and interfere with daily routine. Many people give up change efforts because they feel that there is no way they can function without their habit as the urges interfere too much with quality of life.
It is important to remember that urges, in and of themselves, are normal. We experience craving in varying degrees every day. And because your habit has been important to you for a long time, it may be unreasonable to expect urges to vanish completely. What is hoped is that you will come to experience urges with less frequency and that when they are experienced you will be able to react in a way that avoids relapse.
The "three Ds" can be helpful in coping with urges and craving, 'whether these urges are related to alcohol or drug use, overeating, tobacco use or any habit you are attempting to change. The Ds stand for Decatastrophizing, Disputing expectancies and Distracting."
Follow the link for the rest...
http://www.moderation.org/faq/coping.shtml
And finally, although it have by no means made up my mind, my link to a moderation management site might suggest I am on the side of moderation versus abstention. I'm exploring moderation, but right now I lean towards abstaining from your trigger foods.
As has been said, the human brain does tend to have a reward center and pattern that applies to things as diverse as
Lighting up a crack pipe
Eatting sugar
Petting puppies
Smiling at people
Remembering that gold star your teacher gave you in 3rd grade
Knifing your dealer so you can take his whole stash
Thinking about what you're going to order at KFC
Being intimate
Cranking the handle on the one armed bandit and hoping you get 3 cherries this time, this time for sure, I know it, stop telling me the odds are fixed, I know my luck is different time, you downer
The smell of really nice laundry detergent
etc...
I wanted to comment on " ...do habits, craving, and enjoyable things have a commonality? It's a trivial question."
Maybe it's not a trivial question. Use/abuse of a substance is thought to fall along a continuum. There are times when I felt as though I was going to comfort foods so often and in such ridiculous quantity that I drew parallels to substance abuse. I was, in my mind, abusing cake and candy. But just as there is a distinction between alcoholics and problem drinkers, there is acknowledgement that problem drinking is, well, a problem. That "moderation management" site I linked to earlier was meant for problem drinkers, not alcoholics. The distinction was that once you are an alcoholic proper, forget about moderation and aim for abstinence. In fact, even for problem drinkers their counsel was that if abstinence was an option for you, you should go that route. I draw the parallels again to how here there has been a faction that argues for as much of an abstinence of sugary treats as can be realistically managed, where others argue that learning moderation is a far better path.
Here is an excerpt about the distinction of actual abuse along that continuum from alcoholrehab.com
The continuum of substance abuse is a term that is used to refer to the stages of substance use and abuse. The use of a drug can be only labeled drug abuse when the user becomes dysfunctional as a result of their use. If a person can maintain healthy relationships, does not suffer financial hardships, does not become unwell or is harmed from the use of the substance, then the use is maintained as drug use and not abuse. However, if a person begins to exhibit adverse reactions from a drug, has considerable problems with relationships with others, acts in a harmful, dangerous or reckless manner and begins to use significant amounts of energy acquiring and using a drug, then it can be considered that the individual has a drug abuse problem.
http://alcoholrehab.com/drug-addiction/continuum-of-substance-use-and-abuse/
Please don't try to connect them in any way to something like a craving for sugar.
Upon review, I'd say my post was a bit meandering in thought. Mostly I was trying to say (I think) that even if sugar cravings don't fall into any kind of formal disorder, they can be a nontrivial problem for people, and, obviously I guess, shouldn't be trivialized. If I went to a methadone clinic saying I want medication to help me deal with my sugar cravings I might deserve ridicule. But here, on a website primarily (though not exclusively) set up to help people lose weight, it's odd to me that sugar cravings ARE so often trivialized. I give you cwolfman's post above. @cwolfman13, I have seen many a helpful post from you on cycling and just living a healthy balanced life. But on this topic, your frustration shows in the use of the word "any" in saying 'is just code for "I don't have any self control"'. More self control is the only answer. I don't think anyone is asking for a drug. But saying that those who feel as though they have an unusual degree of cravings for sweets don't have ANY self control trivializes their problem, and maybe even their character.
Eek, I've meandered yet again but I wanted to point out that based on the paragraph I quoted about distinguishing use from abuse, I certainly could not consider the cravings I have had for sugary treats as constituting abuse. It was, in fact, a quiet acknowledgement that I do not consider most sugar cravings to be addictions/abuse. (Still not trivial.
)
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That actually makes MUCH more sense. And I've talked to many people about things like having control over food; if they don't have it, not having the food around is a good idea. Often the advice I give is to not buy food that is a specific trigger, and not to keep it in the house. Not eating it at all can sometimes lead to binging so I'll advise the purchase of a single serving size and just eating that (not at the store where more can be purchased after consumption).goldthistime wrote: »
If you're seriously going to try to link any of this to sugar cravings, you might want to reconsider. If you wanted to discuss eating disorders, that's an entirely different realm altogether. BED, anorexia, bulimia, etc, are all in a class completely separate and are actual disorders/mental diseases.goldthistime wrote: »
I don't think John was asking that if you boil it down to the lowest common denominator, do habits, craving, and enjoyable things have a commonality? It's a trivial question.goldthistime wrote: »Drinking alcohol to excess actually causes a physical change to the cells in the body. When drinking is stopped suddenly, the person goes through an intensely painful process called delirium tremens. The person will hallucinate, vomit, urinate and defecate without control, drool, and often need to be intubated because of the excessive suffering. People get intensely violent, even toward people they care about deeply. the cells in the body are affecting the person on a physical level as they are in a severe need of the substance that changed them in the first place.
People who eat a lot of sugar for a long time, and then stop eating it suddenly don't do any of that. Just because they get a little shaky from lack of energy or get a headache doesn't mean they have any understanding of the severe effects of any of the physical torture any addict suffers. Sugar doesn't change the cells of the body in any way, other than adding additional fat cells if eaten to excess.
On this I agree with you 100%. You can't compare the magnitude of sugar withdrawal (if it exists at all) with alcohol withdrawal. But withdrawal from alcohol is the most extreme of all addictions, if this were your only criteria to determine addiction, (I've read other posts you've written so I know it's not), other recognized addictions might not qualify either. Gambling is the easy one to throw out there. Surely it is less offensive to consider possible withdrawal effects from abstaining from sugary foods than from abstaining from gambling. But I have also read that cocaine withdrawal symptoms are very mild, and that it is much more of a behavioral addiction (as PeacyCarol suggests sugar cravings may be a result of) than alcohol.
But the OP did not ask us if we believed that sugar was an addictive substance. He asked if sugar cravings are similar to a drug addiction. The idea seems to me to be a good middle ground. Not addictive in a classical sense, but those damn cravings can have similarities with addiction.
And to answer an earlier posters question, what's the benefit of viewing sugar cravings in a similar way to a drug addiction, my answer, in part, is that we may be able to borrow from the study and research that has been done on addictions and apply it to our own struggles. Below, for example, is an excerpt from Moderation Management that may be of interest to some.
"Habits and urges go hand in hand. In fact, many people in the throes of an addictive behavior problem, whether it is overeating, drug use or alcohol abuse, claim that they derive no pleasure from their habit--that it is nothing but the relentless craving that fuels ongoing addictive behavior. What is usually most difficult for people when changing a bad habit is coping with the sometimes relentless urges. The initial days of a habit kicking plan can be exhausting as urges dominate thinking and interfere with daily routine. Many people give up change efforts because they feel that there is no way they can function without their habit as the urges interfere too much with quality of life.
It is important to remember that urges, in and of themselves, are normal. We experience craving in varying degrees every day. And because your habit has been important to you for a long time, it may be unreasonable to expect urges to vanish completely. What is hoped is that you will come to experience urges with less frequency and that when they are experienced you will be able to react in a way that avoids relapse.
The "three Ds" can be helpful in coping with urges and craving, 'whether these urges are related to alcohol or drug use, overeating, tobacco use or any habit you are attempting to change. The Ds stand for Decatastrophizing, Disputing expectancies and Distracting."
Follow the link for the rest...
http://www.moderation.org/faq/coping.shtml
And finally, although it have by no means made up my mind, my link to a moderation management site might suggest I am on the side of moderation versus abstention. I'm exploring moderation, but right now I lean towards abstaining from your trigger foods.
As has been said, the human brain does tend to have a reward center and pattern that applies to things as diverse as
Lighting up a crack pipe
Eatting sugar
Petting puppies
Smiling at people
Remembering that gold star your teacher gave you in 3rd grade
Knifing your dealer so you can take his whole stash
Thinking about what you're going to order at KFC
Being intimate
Cranking the handle on the one armed bandit and hoping you get 3 cherries this time, this time for sure, I know it, stop telling me the odds are fixed, I know my luck is different time, you downer
The smell of really nice laundry detergent
etc...
I wanted to comment on " ...do habits, craving, and enjoyable things have a commonality? It's a trivial question."
Maybe it's not a trivial question. Use/abuse of a substance is thought to fall along a continuum. There are times when I felt as though I was going to comfort foods so often and in such ridiculous quantity that I drew parallels to substance abuse. I was, in my mind, abusing cake and candy. But just as there is a distinction between alcoholics and problem drinkers, there is acknowledgement that problem drinking is, well, a problem. That "moderation management" site I linked to earlier was meant for problem drinkers, not alcoholics. The distinction was that once you are an alcoholic proper, forget about moderation and aim for abstinence. In fact, even for problem drinkers their counsel was that if abstinence was an option for you, you should go that route. I draw the parallels again to how here there has been a faction that argues for as much of an abstinence of sugary treats as can be realistically managed, where others argue that learning moderation is a far better path.
Here is an excerpt about the distinction of actual abuse along that continuum from alcoholrehab.com
The continuum of substance abuse is a term that is used to refer to the stages of substance use and abuse. The use of a drug can be only labeled drug abuse when the user becomes dysfunctional as a result of their use. If a person can maintain healthy relationships, does not suffer financial hardships, does not become unwell or is harmed from the use of the substance, then the use is maintained as drug use and not abuse. However, if a person begins to exhibit adverse reactions from a drug, has considerable problems with relationships with others, acts in a harmful, dangerous or reckless manner and begins to use significant amounts of energy acquiring and using a drug, then it can be considered that the individual has a drug abuse problem.
http://alcoholrehab.com/drug-addiction/continuum-of-substance-use-and-abuse/
Please don't try to connect them in any way to something like a craving for sugar.
Upon review, I'd say my post was a bit meandering in thought. Mostly I was trying to say (I think) that even if sugar cravings don't fall into any kind of formal disorder, they can be a nontrivial problem for people, and, obviously I guess, shouldn't be trivialized. If I went to a methadone clinic saying I want medication to help me deal with my sugar cravings I might deserve ridicule. But here, on a website primarily (though not exclusively) set up to help people lose weight, it's odd to me that sugar cravings ARE so often trivialized. I give you cwolfman's post above. @cwolfman13, I have seen many a helpful post from you on cycling and just living a healthy balanced life. But on this topic, your frustration shows in the use of the word "any" in saying 'is just code for "I don't have any self control"'. More self control is the only answer. I don't think anyone is asking for a drug. But saying that those who feel as though they have an unusual degree of cravings for sweets don't have ANY self control trivializes their problem, and maybe even their character.
Eek, I've meandered yet again but I wanted to point out that based on the paragraph I quoted about distinguishing use from abuse, I certainly could not consider the cravings I have had for sugary treats as constituting abuse. It was, in fact, a quiet acknowledgement that I do not consider most sugar cravings to be addictions/abuse. (Still not trivial. )0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »IMO, for the most part, "I'm addicted to carbs" or "I'm addicted to sugar" or "I'm addicted to fast food" is just code for "I don't have any self control".
I'm addicted to "X" is far overused and IMO, has just become a socially acceptable excuse to absolve personal responsibility for just about anything.
How does that differ from "I'm addicted to cigarettes" being code for "I don't have any self control"? Isn't self control what is needed to break any addiction?
Edit: Or restraint - but that would also work for sugar as well as drugs.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »IMO, for the most part, "I'm addicted to carbs" or "I'm addicted to sugar" or "I'm addicted to fast food" is just code for "I don't have any self control".
I'm addicted to "X" is far overused and IMO, has just become a socially acceptable excuse to absolve personal responsibility for just about anything.
How does that differ from "I'm addicted to cigarettes" being code for "I don't have any self control"? Isn't self control what is needed to break any addiction?
Edit: Or restraint - but that would also work for sugar as well as drugs.
you do realize that people coming off of narcotics, alcohol, etc can actually die from withdrawal right? i think it goes a little beyond wanting a cookie.
you people are fecking ridiculous.0 -
I'll admit to being one of the more blunt posters on here about things like sugar cravings. I'm inclined to have more sympathy when someone is willing to drop the pretense of it being addiction and saying it is just plain hard. Nothing to argue with there. Hence I'm usually pretty fond of dropping the quote "Oh definitely. Weight loss is definitely hard. Being overweight is hard. Choose your hard."goldthistime wrote: »
If you're seriously going to try to link any of this to sugar cravings, you might want to reconsider. If you wanted to discuss eating disorders, that's an entirely different realm altogether. BED, anorexia, bulimia, etc, are all in a class completely separate and are actual disorders/mental diseases.goldthistime wrote: »
I don't think John was asking that if you boil it down to the lowest common denominator, do habits, craving, and enjoyable things have a commonality? It's a trivial question.goldthistime wrote: »Drinking alcohol to excess actually causes a physical change to the cells in the body. When drinking is stopped suddenly, the person goes through an intensely painful process called delirium tremens. The person will hallucinate, vomit, urinate and defecate without control, drool, and often need to be intubated because of the excessive suffering. People get intensely violent, even toward people they care about deeply. the cells in the body are affecting the person on a physical level as they are in a severe need of the substance that changed them in the first place.
People who eat a lot of sugar for a long time, and then stop eating it suddenly don't do any of that. Just because they get a little shaky from lack of energy or get a headache doesn't mean they have any understanding of the severe effects of any of the physical torture any addict suffers. Sugar doesn't change the cells of the body in any way, other than adding additional fat cells if eaten to excess.
On this I agree with you 100%. You can't compare the magnitude of sugar withdrawal (if it exists at all) with alcohol withdrawal. But withdrawal from alcohol is the most extreme of all addictions, if this were your only criteria to determine addiction, (I've read other posts you've written so I know it's not), other recognized addictions might not qualify either. Gambling is the easy one to throw out there. Surely it is less offensive to consider possible withdrawal effects from abstaining from sugary foods than from abstaining from gambling. But I have also read that cocaine withdrawal symptoms are very mild, and that it is much more of a behavioral addiction (as PeacyCarol suggests sugar cravings may be a result of) than alcohol.
But the OP did not ask us if we believed that sugar was an addictive substance. He asked if sugar cravings are similar to a drug addiction. The idea seems to me to be a good middle ground. Not addictive in a classical sense, but those damn cravings can have similarities with addiction.
And to answer an earlier posters question, what's the benefit of viewing sugar cravings in a similar way to a drug addiction, my answer, in part, is that we may be able to borrow from the study and research that has been done on addictions and apply it to our own struggles. Below, for example, is an excerpt from Moderation Management that may be of interest to some.
"Habits and urges go hand in hand. In fact, many people in the throes of an addictive behavior problem, whether it is overeating, drug use or alcohol abuse, claim that they derive no pleasure from their habit--that it is nothing but the relentless craving that fuels ongoing addictive behavior. What is usually most difficult for people when changing a bad habit is coping with the sometimes relentless urges. The initial days of a habit kicking plan can be exhausting as urges dominate thinking and interfere with daily routine. Many people give up change efforts because they feel that there is no way they can function without their habit as the urges interfere too much with quality of life.
It is important to remember that urges, in and of themselves, are normal. We experience craving in varying degrees every day. And because your habit has been important to you for a long time, it may be unreasonable to expect urges to vanish completely. What is hoped is that you will come to experience urges with less frequency and that when they are experienced you will be able to react in a way that avoids relapse.
The "three Ds" can be helpful in coping with urges and craving, 'whether these urges are related to alcohol or drug use, overeating, tobacco use or any habit you are attempting to change. The Ds stand for Decatastrophizing, Disputing expectancies and Distracting."
Follow the link for the rest...
http://www.moderation.org/faq/coping.shtml
And finally, although it have by no means made up my mind, my link to a moderation management site might suggest I am on the side of moderation versus abstention. I'm exploring moderation, but right now I lean towards abstaining from your trigger foods.
As has been said, the human brain does tend to have a reward center and pattern that applies to things as diverse as
Lighting up a crack pipe
Eatting sugar
Petting puppies
Smiling at people
Remembering that gold star your teacher gave you in 3rd grade
Knifing your dealer so you can take his whole stash
Thinking about what you're going to order at KFC
Being intimate
Cranking the handle on the one armed bandit and hoping you get 3 cherries this time, this time for sure, I know it, stop telling me the odds are fixed, I know my luck is different time, you downer
The smell of really nice laundry detergent
etc...
I wanted to comment on " ...do habits, craving, and enjoyable things have a commonality? It's a trivial question."
Maybe it's not a trivial question. Use/abuse of a substance is thought to fall along a continuum. There are times when I felt as though I was going to comfort foods so often and in such ridiculous quantity that I drew parallels to substance abuse. I was, in my mind, abusing cake and candy. But just as there is a distinction between alcoholics and problem drinkers, there is acknowledgement that problem drinking is, well, a problem. That "moderation management" site I linked to earlier was meant for problem drinkers, not alcoholics. The distinction was that once you are an alcoholic proper, forget about moderation and aim for abstinence. In fact, even for problem drinkers their counsel was that if abstinence was an option for you, you should go that route. I draw the parallels again to how here there has been a faction that argues for as much of an abstinence of sugary treats as can be realistically managed, where others argue that learning moderation is a far better path.
Here is an excerpt about the distinction of actual abuse along that continuum from alcoholrehab.com
The continuum of substance abuse is a term that is used to refer to the stages of substance use and abuse. The use of a drug can be only labeled drug abuse when the user becomes dysfunctional as a result of their use. If a person can maintain healthy relationships, does not suffer financial hardships, does not become unwell or is harmed from the use of the substance, then the use is maintained as drug use and not abuse. However, if a person begins to exhibit adverse reactions from a drug, has considerable problems with relationships with others, acts in a harmful, dangerous or reckless manner and begins to use significant amounts of energy acquiring and using a drug, then it can be considered that the individual has a drug abuse problem.
http://alcoholrehab.com/drug-addiction/continuum-of-substance-use-and-abuse/
Please don't try to connect them in any way to something like a craving for sugar.
Upon review, I'd say my post was a bit meandering in thought. Mostly I was trying to say (I think) that even if sugar cravings don't fall into any kind of formal disorder, they can be a nontrivial problem for people, and, obviously I guess, shouldn't be trivialized. If I went to a methadone clinic saying I want medication to help me deal with my sugar cravings I might deserve ridicule. But here, on a website primarily (though not exclusively) set up to help people lose weight, it's odd to me that sugar cravings ARE so often trivialized. I give you cwolfman's post above. @cwolfma n13, I have seen many a helpful post from you on cycling and just living a healthy balanced life. But on this topic, your frustration shows in the use of the word "any" in saying 'is just code for "I don't have any self control"'. More self control is the only answer. I don't think anyone is asking for a drug. But saying that those who feel as though they have an unusual degree of cravings for sweets don't have ANY self control trivializes their problem, and maybe even their character.
Eek, I've meandered yet again but I wanted to point out that based on the paragraph I quoted about distinguishing use from abuse, I certainly could not consider the cravings I have had for sugary treats as constituting abuse. It was, in fact, a quiet acknowledgement that I do not consider most sugar cravings to be addictions/abuse. (Still not trivial. )
I think plenty of the blunter posters just don't see people that are still stuck in those phases are being ready to change - it's not their time, send them back. And to be honest, no one here has learned how to give other people the will to do anything (or any humans have for that matter) - you can inspire and motivate, but all of that is going to run out eventually. People will eventually need to learn how to have a will the renews at a rate they use it.0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »IMO, for the most part, "I'm addicted to carbs" or "I'm addicted to sugar" or "I'm addicted to fast food" is just code for "I don't have any self control".
I'm addicted to "X" is far overused and IMO, has just become a socially acceptable excuse to absolve personal responsibility for just about anything.
How does that differ from "I'm addicted to cigarettes" being code for "I don't have any self control"? Isn't self control what is needed to break any addiction?
Edit: Or restraint - but that would also work for sugar as well as drugs.
you do realize that people coming off of narcotics, alcohol, etc can actually die from withdrawal right? i think it goes a little beyond wanting a cookie.
you people are fecking ridiculous.
So, is that the criteria for addiction? If the withdrawls can't kill you it's not an addiction?0 -
In before diabetics can be addicted to sugar because glucose drops.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »IMO, for the most part, "I'm addicted to carbs" or "I'm addicted to sugar" or "I'm addicted to fast food" is just code for "I don't have any self control".
I'm addicted to "X" is far overused and IMO, has just become a socially acceptable excuse to absolve personal responsibility for just about anything.
How does that differ from "I'm addicted to cigarettes" being code for "I don't have any self control"? Isn't self control what is needed to break any addiction?
Edit: Or restraint - but that would also work for sugar as well as drugs.
you do realize that people coming off of narcotics, alcohol, etc can actually die from withdrawal right? i think it goes a little beyond wanting a cookie.
you people are fecking ridiculous.
So, is that the criteria for addiction? If the withdrawls can't kill you it's not an addiction?0 -
In before diabetics can be addicted to sugar because glucose drops.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »IMO, for the most part, "I'm addicted to carbs" or "I'm addicted to sugar" or "I'm addicted to fast food" is just code for "I don't have any self control".
I'm addicted to "X" is far overused and IMO, has just become a socially acceptable excuse to absolve personal responsibility for just about anything.
How does that differ from "I'm addicted to cigarettes" being code for "I don't have any self control"? Isn't self control what is needed to break any addiction?
Edit: Or restraint - but that would also work for sugar as well as drugs.
you do realize that people coming off of narcotics, alcohol, etc can actually die from withdrawal right? i think it goes a little beyond wanting a cookie.
you people are fecking ridiculous.
So, is that the criteria for addiction? If the withdrawls can't kill you it's not an addiction?
But people do die from low blood sugar. 0 -
I'll admit to being one of the more blunt posters on here about things like sugar cravings. I'm inclined to have more sympathy when someone is willing to drop the pretense of it being addiction and saying it is just plain hard. Nothing to argue with there. Hence I'm usually pretty fond of dropping the quote "Oh definitely. Weight loss is definitely hard. Being overweight is hard. Choose your hard."goldthistime wrote: »
If you're seriously going to try to link any of this to sugar cravings, you might want to reconsider. If you wanted to discuss eating disorders, that's an entirely different realm altogether. BED, anorexia, bulimia, etc, are all in a class completely separate and are actual disorders/mental diseases.goldthistime wrote: »
I don't think John was asking that if you boil it down to the lowest common denominator, do habits, craving, and enjoyable things have a commonality? It's a trivial question.goldthistime wrote: »Drinking alcohol to excess actually causes a physical change to the cells in the body. When drinking is stopped suddenly, the person goes through an intensely painful process called delirium tremens. The person will hallucinate, vomit, urinate and defecate without control, drool, and often need to be intubated because of the excessive suffering. People get intensely violent, even toward people they care about deeply. the cells in the body are affecting the person on a physical level as they are in a severe need of the substance that changed them in the first place.
People who eat a lot of sugar for a long time, and then stop eating it suddenly don't do any of that. Just because they get a little shaky from lack of energy or get a headache doesn't mean they have any understanding of the severe effects of any of the physical torture any addict suffers. Sugar doesn't change the cells of the body in any way, other than adding additional fat cells if eaten to excess.
On this I agree with you 100%. You can't compare the magnitude of sugar withdrawal (if it exists at all) with alcohol withdrawal. But withdrawal from alcohol is the most extreme of all addictions, if this were your only criteria to determine addiction, (I've read other posts you've written so I know it's not), other recognized addictions might not qualify either. Gambling is the easy one to throw out there. Surely it is less offensive to consider possible withdrawal effects from abstaining from sugary foods than from abstaining from gambling. But I have also read that cocaine withdrawal symptoms are very mild, and that it is much more of a behavioral addiction (as PeacyCarol suggests sugar cravings may be a result of) than alcohol.
But the OP did not ask us if we believed that sugar was an addictive substance. He asked if sugar cravings are similar to a drug addiction. The idea seems to me to be a good middle ground. Not addictive in a classical sense, but those damn cravings can have similarities with addiction.
And to answer an earlier posters question, what's the benefit of viewing sugar cravings in a similar way to a drug addiction, my answer, in part, is that we may be able to borrow from the study and research that has been done on addictions and apply it to our own struggles. Below, for example, is an excerpt from Moderation Management that may be of interest to some.
"Habits and urges go hand in hand. In fact, many people in the throes of an addictive behavior problem, whether it is overeating, drug use or alcohol abuse, claim that they derive no pleasure from their habit--that it is nothing but the relentless craving that fuels ongoing addictive behavior. What is usually most difficult for people when changing a bad habit is coping with the sometimes relentless urges. The initial days of a habit kicking plan can be exhausting as urges dominate thinking and interfere with daily routine. Many people give up change efforts because they feel that there is no way they can function without their habit as the urges interfere too much with quality of life.
It is important to remember that urges, in and of themselves, are normal. We experience craving in varying degrees every day. And because your habit has been important to you for a long time, it may be unreasonable to expect urges to vanish completely. What is hoped is that you will come to experience urges with less frequency and that when they are experienced you will be able to react in a way that avoids relapse.
The "three Ds" can be helpful in coping with urges and craving, 'whether these urges are related to alcohol or drug use, overeating, tobacco use or any habit you are attempting to change. The Ds stand for Decatastrophizing, Disputing expectancies and Distracting."
Follow the link for the rest...
http://www.moderation.org/faq/coping.shtml
And finally, although it have by no means made up my mind, my link to a moderation management site might suggest I am on the side of moderation versus abstention. I'm exploring moderation, but right now I lean towards abstaining from your trigger foods.
As has been said, the human brain does tend to have a reward center and pattern that applies to things as diverse as
Lighting up a crack pipe
Eatting sugar
Petting puppies
Smiling at people
Remembering that gold star your teacher gave you in 3rd grade
Knifing your dealer so you can take his whole stash
Thinking about what you're going to order at KFC
Being intimate
Cranking the handle on the one armed bandit and hoping you get 3 cherries this time, this time for sure, I know it, stop telling me the odds are fixed, I know my luck is different time, you downer
The smell of really nice laundry detergent
etc...
I wanted to comment on " ...do habits, craving, and enjoyable things have a commonality? It's a trivial question."
Maybe it's not a trivial question. Use/abuse of a substance is thought to fall along a continuum. There are times when I felt as though I was going to comfort foods so often and in such ridiculous quantity that I drew parallels to substance abuse. I was, in my mind, abusing cake and candy. But just as there is a distinction between alcoholics and problem drinkers, there is acknowledgement that problem drinking is, well, a problem. That "moderation management" site I linked to earlier was meant for problem drinkers, not alcoholics. The distinction was that once you are an alcoholic proper, forget about moderation and aim for abstinence. In fact, even for problem drinkers their counsel was that if abstinence was an option for you, you should go that route. I draw the parallels again to how here there has been a faction that argues for as much of an abstinence of sugary treats as can be realistically managed, where others argue that learning moderation is a far better path.
Here is an excerpt about the distinction of actual abuse along that continuum from alcoholrehab.com
The continuum of substance abuse is a term that is used to refer to the stages of substance use and abuse. The use of a drug can be only labeled drug abuse when the user becomes dysfunctional as a result of their use. If a person can maintain healthy relationships, does not suffer financial hardships, does not become unwell or is harmed from the use of the substance, then the use is maintained as drug use and not abuse. However, if a person begins to exhibit adverse reactions from a drug, has considerable problems with relationships with others, acts in a harmful, dangerous or reckless manner and begins to use significant amounts of energy acquiring and using a drug, then it can be considered that the individual has a drug abuse problem.
http://alcoholrehab.com/drug-addiction/continuum-of-substance-use-and-abuse/
Please don't try to connect them in any way to something like a craving for sugar.
Upon review, I'd say my post was a bit meandering in thought. Mostly I was trying to say (I think) that even if sugar cravings don't fall into any kind of formal disorder, they can be a nontrivial problem for people, and, obviously I guess, shouldn't be trivialized. If I went to a methadone clinic saying I want medication to help me deal with my sugar cravings I might deserve ridicule. But here, on a website primarily (though not exclusively) set up to help people lose weight, it's odd to me that sugar cravings ARE so often trivialized. I give you cwolfman's post above. @cwolfma n13, I have seen many a helpful post from you on cycling and just living a healthy balanced life. But on this topic, your frustration shows in the use of the word "any" in saying 'is just code for "I don't have any self control"'. More self control is the only answer. I don't think anyone is asking for a drug. But saying that those who feel as though they have an unusual degree of cravings for sweets don't have ANY self control trivializes their problem, and maybe even their character.
Eek, I've meandered yet again but I wanted to point out that based on the paragraph I quoted about distinguishing use from abuse, I certainly could not consider the cravings I have had for sugary treats as constituting abuse. It was, in fact, a quiet acknowledgement that I do not consider most sugar cravings to be addictions/abuse. (Still not trivial. )
I think plenty of the blunter posters just don't see people that are still stuck in those phases are being ready to change - it's not their time, send them back. And to be honest, no one here has learned how to give other people the will to do anything (or any humans have for that matter) - you can inspire and motivate, but all of that is going to run out eventually. People will eventually need to learn how to have a will the renews at a rate they use it.
What you wrote is kinda what I was thinking.... some people (not all...but some) who claim there are sugar addictions just seem to be using that to blame something...like a disease... for their lack of self control. Again- not lumping everyone in this category, but some people seem to do that.0 -
To be fair, I think Need2 is discussing more with an eye towards sympathy and compassion rather than a self diagnosed sugar addiction.cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »IMO, for the most part, "I'm addicted to carbs" or "I'm addicted to sugar" or "I'm addicted to fast food" is just code for "I don't have any self control".
I'm addicted to "X" is far overused and IMO, has just become a socially acceptable excuse to absolve personal responsibility for just about anything.
How does that differ from "I'm addicted to cigarettes" being code for "I don't have any self control"? Isn't self control what is needed to break any addiction?
Edit: Or restraint - but that would also work for sugar as well as drugs.
you do realize that people coming off of narcotics, alcohol, etc can actually die from withdrawal right? i think it goes a little beyond wanting a cookie.
you people are fecking ridiculous.
So, is that the criteria for addiction? If the withdrawls can't kill you it's not an addiction?
you should change your name to "Need4Excuses"
0 -
To be fair, I think Need2 is discussing more with an eye towards sympathy and compassion rather than a self diagnosed sugar addiction.cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »IMO, for the most part, "I'm addicted to carbs" or "I'm addicted to sugar" or "I'm addicted to fast food" is just code for "I don't have any self control".
I'm addicted to "X" is far overused and IMO, has just become a socially acceptable excuse to absolve personal responsibility for just about anything.
How does that differ from "I'm addicted to cigarettes" being code for "I don't have any self control"? Isn't self control what is needed to break any addiction?
Edit: Or restraint - but that would also work for sugar as well as drugs.
you do realize that people coming off of narcotics, alcohol, etc can actually die from withdrawal right? i think it goes a little beyond wanting a cookie.
you people are fecking ridiculous.
So, is that the criteria for addiction? If the withdrawls can't kill you it's not an addiction?
you should change your name to "Need4Excuses"
perhaps...i'm interpreting what she's saying as basically everything is addictive and thus we're all addicts to something, which I don't buy for a second.
i love cycling...it gets my endorphins going and i get a great high...i miss it when i can't ride, but i wouldn't consider my passion an addiction...but the way i'm interpreting Need2 is that indeed it would be, just like drugs.
i just don't buy this everyone's addicted to everything stuff and that there's no difference between craving a cookie and needing a shot of heroin. i have a very close friend who is a heroin addict and likely he will OD one day...and sorry...but it's a whole lot different than "I'm addicted to fast food." or craving a cookie I just don't buy it.
0 -
To be fair, I think Need2 is discussing more with an eye towards sympathy and compassion rather than a self diagnosed sugar addiction.cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »IMO, for the most part, "I'm addicted to carbs" or "I'm addicted to sugar" or "I'm addicted to fast food" is just code for "I don't have any self control".
I'm addicted to "X" is far overused and IMO, has just become a socially acceptable excuse to absolve personal responsibility for just about anything.
How does that differ from "I'm addicted to cigarettes" being code for "I don't have any self control"? Isn't self control what is needed to break any addiction?
Edit: Or restraint - but that would also work for sugar as well as drugs.
you do realize that people coming off of narcotics, alcohol, etc can actually die from withdrawal right? i think it goes a little beyond wanting a cookie.
you people are fecking ridiculous.
So, is that the criteria for addiction? If the withdrawls can't kill you it's not an addiction?
you should change your name to "Need4Excuses"
Bingo. I have no addiction to sugar. Nuts and wine, maybe, but I can control those with a small daily fix.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
To be fair, I think Need2 is discussing more with an eye towards sympathy and compassion rather than a self diagnosed sugar addiction.cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »IMO, for the most part, "I'm addicted to carbs" or "I'm addicted to sugar" or "I'm addicted to fast food" is just code for "I don't have any self control".
I'm addicted to "X" is far overused and IMO, has just become a socially acceptable excuse to absolve personal responsibility for just about anything.
How does that differ from "I'm addicted to cigarettes" being code for "I don't have any self control"? Isn't self control what is needed to break any addiction?
Edit: Or restraint - but that would also work for sugar as well as drugs.
you do realize that people coming off of narcotics, alcohol, etc can actually die from withdrawal right? i think it goes a little beyond wanting a cookie.
you people are fecking ridiculous.
So, is that the criteria for addiction? If the withdrawls can't kill you it's not an addiction?
you should change your name to "Need4Excuses"
Bingo. I have no addiction to sugar. Nuts and wine, maybe, but I can control those with a small daily fix.
You are a smart, patient woman. Major kudos.
0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »
To be fair, I think Need2 is discussing more with an eye towards sympathy and compassion rather than a self diagnosed sugar addiction.cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »IMO, for the most part, "I'm addicted to carbs" or "I'm addicted to sugar" or "I'm addicted to fast food" is just code for "I don't have any self control".
I'm addicted to "X" is far overused and IMO, has just become a socially acceptable excuse to absolve personal responsibility for just about anything.
How does that differ from "I'm addicted to cigarettes" being code for "I don't have any self control"? Isn't self control what is needed to break any addiction?
Edit: Or restraint - but that would also work for sugar as well as drugs.
you do realize that people coming off of narcotics, alcohol, etc can actually die from withdrawal right? i think it goes a little beyond wanting a cookie.
you people are fecking ridiculous.
So, is that the criteria for addiction? If the withdrawls can't kill you it's not an addiction?
you should change your name to "Need4Excuses"
perhaps...i'm interpreting what she's saying as basically everything is addictive and thus we're all addicts to something, which I don't buy for a second.
i love cycling...it gets my endorphins going and i get a great high...i miss it when i can't ride, but i wouldn't consider my passion an addiction...but the way i'm interpreting Need2 is that indeed it would be, just like drugs.
i just don't buy this everyone's addicted to everything stuff and that there's no difference between craving a cookie and needing a shot of heroin. i have a very close friend who is a heroin addict and likely he will OD one day...and sorry...but it's a whole lot different than "I'm addicted to fast food." or craving a cookie I just don't buy it.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just pointing out the silliness used to try and "prove" something is not addictive.
'My addiction has worse symptoms than you could ever have so you can't be addicted' sounds as ridiculous to me as 'I have cancer so you are not sick with your common cold'.0 -
I'll admit to being one of the more blunt posters on here about things like sugar cravings. I'm inclined to have more sympathy when someone is willing to drop the pretense of it being addiction and saying it is just plain hard. Nothing to argue with there. Hence I'm usually pretty fond of dropping the quote "Oh definitely. Weight loss is definitely hard. Being overweight is hard. Choose your hard."goldthistime wrote: »
If you're seriously going to try to link any of this to sugar cravings, you might want to reconsider. If you wanted to discuss eating disorders, that's an entirely different realm altogether. BED, anorexia, bulimia, etc, are all in a class completely separate and are actual disorders/mental diseases.goldthistime wrote: »
I don't think John was asking that if you boil it down to the lowest common denominator, do habits, craving, and enjoyable things have a commonality? It's a trivial question.goldthistime wrote: »Drinking alcohol to excess actually causes a physical change to the cells in the body. When drinking is stopped suddenly, the person goes through an intensely painful process called delirium tremens. The person will hallucinate, vomit, urinate and defecate without control, drool, and often need to be intubated because of the excessive suffering. People get intensely violent, even toward people they care about deeply. the cells in the body are affecting the person on a physical level as they are in a severe need of the substance that changed them in the first place.
People who eat a lot of sugar for a long time, and then stop eating it suddenly don't do any of that. Just because they get a little shaky from lack of energy or get a headache doesn't mean they have any understanding of the severe effects of any of the physical torture any addict suffers. Sugar doesn't change the cells of the body in any way, other than adding additional fat cells if eaten to excess.
On this I agree with you 100%. You can't compare the magnitude of sugar withdrawal (if it exists at all) with alcohol withdrawal. But withdrawal from alcohol is the most extreme of all addictions, if this were your only criteria to determine addiction, (I've read other posts you've written so I know it's not), other recognized addictions might not qualify either. Gambling is the easy one to throw out there. Surely it is less offensive to consider possible withdrawal effects from abstaining from sugary foods than from abstaining from gambling. But I have also read that cocaine withdrawal symptoms are very mild, and that it is much more of a behavioral addiction (as PeacyCarol suggests sugar cravings may be a result of) than alcohol.
But the OP did not ask us if we believed that sugar was an addictive substance. He asked if sugar cravings are similar to a drug addiction. The idea seems to me to be a good middle ground. Not addictive in a classical sense, but those damn cravings can have similarities with addiction.
And to answer an earlier posters question, what's the benefit of viewing sugar cravings in a similar way to a drug addiction, my answer, in part, is that we may be able to borrow from the study and research that has been done on addictions and apply it to our own struggles. Below, for example, is an excerpt from Moderation Management that may be of interest to some.
"Habits and urges go hand in hand. In fact, many people in the throes of an addictive behavior problem, whether it is overeating, drug use or alcohol abuse, claim that they derive no pleasure from their habit--that it is nothing but the relentless craving that fuels ongoing addictive behavior. What is usually most difficult for people when changing a bad habit is coping with the sometimes relentless urges. The initial days of a habit kicking plan can be exhausting as urges dominate thinking and interfere with daily routine. Many people give up change efforts because they feel that there is no way they can function without their habit as the urges interfere too much with quality of life.
It is important to remember that urges, in and of themselves, are normal. We experience craving in varying degrees every day. And because your habit has been important to you for a long time, it may be unreasonable to expect urges to vanish completely. What is hoped is that you will come to experience urges with less frequency and that when they are experienced you will be able to react in a way that avoids relapse.
The "three Ds" can be helpful in coping with urges and craving, 'whether these urges are related to alcohol or drug use, overeating, tobacco use or any habit you are attempting to change. The Ds stand for Decatastrophizing, Disputing expectancies and Distracting."
Follow the link for the rest...
http://www.moderation.org/faq/coping.shtml
And finally, although it have by no means made up my mind, my link to a moderation management site might suggest I am on the side of moderation versus abstention. I'm exploring moderation, but right now I lean towards abstaining from your trigger foods.
As has been said, the human brain does tend to have a reward center and pattern that applies to things as diverse as
Lighting up a crack pipe
Eatting sugar
Petting puppies
Smiling at people
Remembering that gold star your teacher gave you in 3rd grade
Knifing your dealer so you can take his whole stash
Thinking about what you're going to order at KFC
Being intimate
Cranking the handle on the one armed bandit and hoping you get 3 cherries this time, this time for sure, I know it, stop telling me the odds are fixed, I know my luck is different time, you downer
The smell of really nice laundry detergent
etc...
I wanted to comment on " ...do habits, craving, and enjoyable things have a commonality? It's a trivial question."
Maybe it's not a trivial question. Use/abuse of a substance is thought to fall along a continuum. There are times when I felt as though I was going to comfort foods so often and in such ridiculous quantity that I drew parallels to substance abuse. I was, in my mind, abusing cake and candy. But just as there is a distinction between alcoholics and problem drinkers, there is acknowledgement that problem drinking is, well, a problem. That "moderation management" site I linked to earlier was meant for problem drinkers, not alcoholics. The distinction was that once you are an alcoholic proper, forget about moderation and aim for abstinence. In fact, even for problem drinkers their counsel was that if abstinence was an option for you, you should go that route. I draw the parallels again to how here there has been a faction that argues for as much of an abstinence of sugary treats as can be realistically managed, where others argue that learning moderation is a far better path.
Here is an excerpt about the distinction of actual abuse along that continuum from alcoholrehab.com
The continuum of substance abuse is a term that is used to refer to the stages of substance use and abuse. The use of a drug can be only labeled drug abuse when the user becomes dysfunctional as a result of their use. If a person can maintain healthy relationships, does not suffer financial hardships, does not become unwell or is harmed from the use of the substance, then the use is maintained as drug use and not abuse. However, if a person begins to exhibit adverse reactions from a drug, has considerable problems with relationships with others, acts in a harmful, dangerous or reckless manner and begins to use significant amounts of energy acquiring and using a drug, then it can be considered that the individual has a drug abuse problem.
http://alcoholrehab.com/drug-addiction/continuum-of-substance-use-and-abuse/
Please don't try to connect them in any way to something like a craving for sugar.
Upon review, I'd say my post was a bit meandering in thought. Mostly I was trying to say (I think) that even if sugar cravings don't fall into any kind of formal disorder, they can be a nontrivial problem for people, and, obviously I guess, shouldn't be trivialized. If I went to a methadone clinic saying I want medication to help me deal with my sugar cravings I might deserve ridicule. But here, on a website primarily (though not exclusively) set up to help people lose weight, it's odd to me that sugar cravings ARE so often trivialized. I give you cwolfman's post above. @cwolfma n13, I have seen many a helpful post from you on cycling and just living a healthy balanced life. But on this topic, your frustration shows in the use of the word "any" in saying 'is just code for "I don't have any self control"'. More self control is the only answer. I don't think anyone is asking for a drug. But saying that those who feel as though they have an unusual degree of cravings for sweets don't have ANY self control trivializes their problem, and maybe even their character.
Eek, I've meandered yet again but I wanted to point out that based on the paragraph I quoted about distinguishing use from abuse, I certainly could not consider the cravings I have had for sugary treats as constituting abuse. It was, in fact, a quiet acknowledgement that I do not consider most sugar cravings to be addictions/abuse. (Still not trivial. )
I think plenty of the blunter posters just don't see people that are still stuck in those phases are being ready to change - it's not their time, send them back. And to be honest, no one here has learned how to give other people the will to do anything (or any humans have for that matter) - you can inspire and motivate, but all of that is going to run out eventually. People will eventually need to learn how to have a will the renews at a rate they use it.
Truth.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »
To be fair, I think Need2 is discussing more with an eye towards sympathy and compassion rather than a self diagnosed sugar addiction.cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »IMO, for the most part, "I'm addicted to carbs" or "I'm addicted to sugar" or "I'm addicted to fast food" is just code for "I don't have any self control".
I'm addicted to "X" is far overused and IMO, has just become a socially acceptable excuse to absolve personal responsibility for just about anything.
How does that differ from "I'm addicted to cigarettes" being code for "I don't have any self control"? Isn't self control what is needed to break any addiction?
Edit: Or restraint - but that would also work for sugar as well as drugs.
you do realize that people coming off of narcotics, alcohol, etc can actually die from withdrawal right? i think it goes a little beyond wanting a cookie.
you people are fecking ridiculous.
So, is that the criteria for addiction? If the withdrawls can't kill you it's not an addiction?
you should change your name to "Need4Excuses"
perhaps...i'm interpreting what she's saying as basically everything is addictive and thus we're all addicts to something, which I don't buy for a second.
i love cycling...it gets my endorphins going and i get a great high...i miss it when i can't ride, but i wouldn't consider my passion an addiction...but the way i'm interpreting Need2 is that indeed it would be, just like drugs.
i just don't buy this everyone's addicted to everything stuff and that there's no difference between craving a cookie and needing a shot of heroin. i have a very close friend who is a heroin addict and likely he will OD one day...and sorry...but it's a whole lot different than "I'm addicted to fast food." or craving a cookie I just don't buy it.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just pointing out the silliness used to try and "prove" something is not addictive.
'My addiction has worse symptoms than you could ever have so you can't be addicted' sounds as ridiculous to me as 'I have cancer so you are not sick with your common cold'.
meh...i would say that craving a cookie and calling it an addiction would be more in line with someone having the sniffles and thinking they have cancer rather than just a cold and they don't feel very good.
nobody is saying that breaking habits isn't hard...but that doesn't mean they're actual addictions.0 -
Yes!.....and don't get between me and a peice of chocolate when I have a craving!!! OMG I'll knock you to the ground with a zombie look on my face!!0
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summerkissed wrote: »Yes!.....and don't get between me and a peice of chocolate when I have a craving!!! OMG I'll knock you to the ground with a zombie look on my face!!
Lol agreed!! I'm pretty bad.0 -
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cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »
To be fair, I think Need2 is discussing more with an eye towards sympathy and compassion rather than a self diagnosed sugar addiction.cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »IMO, for the most part, "I'm addicted to carbs" or "I'm addicted to sugar" or "I'm addicted to fast food" is just code for "I don't have any self control".
I'm addicted to "X" is far overused and IMO, has just become a socially acceptable excuse to absolve personal responsibility for just about anything.
How does that differ from "I'm addicted to cigarettes" being code for "I don't have any self control"? Isn't self control what is needed to break any addiction?
Edit: Or restraint - but that would also work for sugar as well as drugs.
you do realize that people coming off of narcotics, alcohol, etc can actually die from withdrawal right? i think it goes a little beyond wanting a cookie.
you people are fecking ridiculous.
So, is that the criteria for addiction? If the withdrawls can't kill you it's not an addiction?
you should change your name to "Need4Excuses"
perhaps...i'm interpreting what she's saying as basically everything is addictive and thus we're all addicts to something, which I don't buy for a second.
i love cycling...it gets my endorphins going and i get a great high...i miss it when i can't ride, but i wouldn't consider my passion an addiction...but the way i'm interpreting Need2 is that indeed it would be, just like drugs.
i just don't buy this everyone's addicted to everything stuff and that there's no difference between craving a cookie and needing a shot of heroin. i have a very close friend who is a heroin addict and likely he will OD one day...and sorry...but it's a whole lot different than "I'm addicted to fast food." or craving a cookie I just don't buy it.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just pointing out the silliness used to try and "prove" something is not addictive.
'My addiction has worse symptoms than you could ever have so you can't be addicted' sounds as ridiculous to me as 'I have cancer so you are not sick with your common cold'.
meh...i would say that craving a cookie and calling it an addiction would be more in line with someone having the sniffles and thinking they have cancer rather than just a cold and they don't feel very good.
nobody is saying that breaking habits isn't hard...but that doesn't mean they're actual addictions.
Doesn't mean they aren't similar either. And wasn't that the question?0 -
Definition of Addiction – a state characterized by compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli despite adverse consequences
Yes sugar does come into this. Is it as bad as drugs?? It depends on the person! Depends on the level of addiction and dependency! No 2 people are the same! I had a friend give up drugs, headaches, hot sweats, sleep problems.....I've also trained girls who go through the same with sugar!0 -
Hey, I just noticed that Wikipedia has changed their "sugar addiction" entry to say that it's a thing. A couple years ago I'm sure it said it was NOT considered to be an addiction, but when I looked at the history at that time, it had previously said it WAS. The talk section shows that it is still controversial.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_addiction
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sugar_addiction
Before anyone has a chance to mock my wiki references, my point is only that the concept of sugar addiction may be arguable but shouldn't be considered ridiculous.0 -
goldthistime wrote: »Hey, I just noticed that Wikipedia has changed their "sugar addiction" entry to say that it's a thing. A couple years ago I'm sure it said it was NOT considered to be an addiction, but when I looked at the history at that time, it had previously said it WAS. The talk section shows that it is still controversial.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_addiction
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sugar_addiction
Before anyone has a chance to mock my wiki references, my point is only that the concept of sugar addiction may be arguable but shouldn't be considered ridiculous.
Anyone can modify any Wikepedia entry to say anything they want it to say. So.... anyone could have entered those.
There have been literally hundreds of actual scientific studies performed by actual research scientists in human trials that failed to prove that sugar is addictive in humans.0
This discussion has been closed.
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