I'm a geek: I read 2 atkins books this week.
Replies
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lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I also know that not everyone would benefit from a lchf just like a zone or moderation diet will not help everyone.
This I agree with. If everyone could agree on this and not insist that there's One Best Diet (which IMO seems to be promoted mainly by the keto folks, but occasionally by moderation types), we'd have a much happier forum.
I don't know if it is mostly keto folks... there's a lot less of us around. I suppose it is possible that we are both noticing the posts that bother us - posts that say our way of eating is wrong or inferior.
Numbers aside, I think most of the non-keto folks are like me -- we have a particular way we like to eat but understand that there are many different ways that people can eat in a healthy fashion, including keto. That's why I always say it can work for people and is worth experimenting with if you aren't already happy with what you are doing.
It seems to me that lately lots and lots of keto folks like to argue that that's the only way to be healthy and that people should reduce fruit and even veg and the like. Lots of drivebys along those lines lately, among other things.
That's not what I'm seeing (I'm not keto etc - I'm actually more your WOE). I'm leaving it at that though.
I'velemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I also know that not everyone would benefit from a lchf just like a zone or moderation diet will not help everyone.
This I agree with. If everyone could agree on this and not insist that there's One Best Diet (which IMO seems to be promoted mainly by the keto folks, but occasionally by moderation types), we'd have a much happier forum.
I don't know if it is mostly keto folks... there's a lot less of us around. I suppose it is possible that we are both noticing the posts that bother us - posts that say our way of eating is wrong or inferior.
Numbers aside, I think most of the non-keto folks are like me -- we have a particular way we like to eat but understand that there are many different ways that people can eat in a healthy fashion, including keto. That's why I always say it can work for people and is worth experimenting with if you aren't already happy with what you are doing.
It seems to me that lately lots and lots of keto folks like to argue that that's the only way to be healthy and that people should reduce fruit and even veg and the like. Lots of drivebys along those lines lately, among other things.
That's not what I'm seeing (I'm not keto etc - I'm actually more your WOE). I'm leaving it at that though.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find non keto folks who insist others must eat like them, but I invite you to email me with examples.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I also know that not everyone would benefit from a lchf just like a zone or moderation diet will not help everyone.
This I agree with. If everyone could agree on this and not insist that there's One Best Diet (which IMO seems to be promoted mainly by the keto folks, but occasionally by moderation types), we'd have a much happier forum.
I don't know if it is mostly keto folks... there's a lot less of us around. I suppose it is possible that we are both noticing the posts that bother us - posts that say our way of eating is wrong or inferior.
Numbers aside, I think most of the non-keto folks are like me -- we have a particular way we like to eat but understand that there are many different ways that people can eat in a healthy fashion, including keto. That's why I always say it can work for people and is worth experimenting with if you aren't already happy with what you are doing.
It seems to me that lately lots and lots of keto folks like to argue that that's the only way to be healthy and that people should reduce fruit and even veg and the like. Lots of drivebys along those lines lately, among other things.
I'm also not keto, and do not see the boards this way.
You've always seemed to me biased toward the low carb POV, even when the MFP group is pushing stuff like carnivous diets. Given that I think your POV is similar to mine -- basically Walter Willett -- and that's anti tons of sat fat and certainly anti reducing veg and fruit and legumes and whole grains, I've found that odd.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I also know that not everyone would benefit from a lchf just like a zone or moderation diet will not help everyone.
This I agree with. If everyone could agree on this and not insist that there's One Best Diet (which IMO seems to be promoted mainly by the keto folks, but occasionally by moderation types), we'd have a much happier forum.
I don't know if it is mostly keto folks... there's a lot less of us around. I suppose it is possible that we are both noticing the posts that bother us - posts that say our way of eating is wrong or inferior.
Numbers aside, I think most of the non-keto folks are like me -- we have a particular way we like to eat but understand that there are many different ways that people can eat in a healthy fashion, including keto. That's why I always say it can work for people and is worth experimenting with if you aren't already happy with what you are doing.
It seems to me that lately lots and lots of keto folks like to argue that that's the only way to be healthy and that people should reduce fruit and even veg and the like. Lots of drivebys along those lines lately, among other things.
Strangely, I am also non-keto (166g of carbs yesterday) and I see a totally different scenario.
I'm not permitted to post examples here, but feel free to email me with contrary evidence.
we are not before a court, but negativa non sunt probanda
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Liked Sugar Salt Fat and am reading Yoni Freedhoff's Diet Fix (I read diet books although I think they are largely pointless, who knows why).
I quite like Yoni Freedhoff's The Diet Fix. The "10-day reset" is gimmicky, but not too much so, and his emphasis on making incremental dietary changes that you can live with is refreshing. It's one of three books with "diet" in their title that I recommend without reservation. (The other two are John Walker, The Hacker's Diet, because Walker treats weight loss as an engineering and management problem, not a moral problem, and Richard Watson, The Philosopher's Diet, which is not really about dieting per se, but about the discipline required to do anything hard, such as losing a lot of weight and keeping it off.)
Thanks! Those are all on my list now.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I also know that not everyone would benefit from a lchf just like a zone or moderation diet will not help everyone.
This I agree with. If everyone could agree on this and not insist that there's One Best Diet (which IMO seems to be promoted mainly by the keto folks, but occasionally by moderation types), we'd have a much happier forum.
I don't know if it is mostly keto folks... there's a lot less of us around. I suppose it is possible that we are both noticing the posts that bother us - posts that say our way of eating is wrong or inferior.
Numbers aside, I think most of the non-keto folks are like me -- we have a particular way we like to eat but understand that there are many different ways that people can eat in a healthy fashion, including keto. That's why I always say it can work for people and is worth experimenting with if you aren't already happy with what you are doing.
It seems to me that lately lots and lots of keto folks like to argue that that's the only way to be healthy and that people should reduce fruit and even veg and the like. Lots of drivebys along those lines lately, among other things.
I'm also not keto, and do not see the boards this way.
You've always seemed to me biased toward the low carb POV, even when the MFP group is pushing stuff like carnivous diets. Given that I think your POV is similar to mine -- basically Walter Willett -- and that's anti tons of sat fat and certainly anti reducing veg and fruit and legumes and whole grains, I've found that odd.
I am very Michael Pollan: eat (real) food, not too much, mostly plants.
As I've hurtled toward menopause, and then hit it full on, I have further reduced my consumption of refined grains.
My diet has been rather lower carb these last few months, in an effort to ease hot flashes and night sweats and a few other annoying symptoms (which seems to be working, btw).
My fats, if it matters, come primarily from avocados, nuts, and cold water fish (and then some cheese, some red meat and chicken...
So I guess you could say I transitioned (at least temporarily) from a mediterranean/ south beach style to a lower carb mediterranean/south beach style of eating, with no limitations on fibers vegetables.
And yes, I've always been happy to support folks trying a lower carb diet for their health. As well as those attempting to reduce their consumption of refined carbs.
Both are valid approaches to improving health, and lower the number on the scale. However, you'll note that I only offer guidance to folks asking about those topics. If someone is doing calorie counting, I don't say "hey why not go low carb instead". I offer ideas for calorie counting.
Perhaps if Keto-ers weren't told daily (including in this thread) that what they're doing is bad, unhealthy, and doomed to fail, the ones who do speak out loudly wouldn't feel inclined.0 -
Traveler120 wrote: »Here's another suggestion: The Starch Solution - by Dr. John McDougall.
Have you read it? What's the gist?0 -
IdoScience wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »This one was a good read:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Low-Carb-Myth-Determine/dp/1942761325/ref=br_lf_m_497vzbcvrpng9yy_1_1_img/181-2648524-1335660?ie=UTF8&s=books
If you want to get really deep this post by researcher Denise Minger is great
http://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in-defense-of-low-fat-a-call-for-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/
I will look into the Low Carb Myth. I am eating LCHF to improve my health, and it has worked. The book looks like it focuses on fat loss with a higher carb diet only, and not the improvements to autoimmune diseases or arthritis - inflammation - on a LCHF diet.... Doesn't look promising to someone coming from my direction. More of a "rah-rah moderation" book.
Not really about "moderation". The author is definitely against highly processed foods. But he does dive into a lot of the dogma with low carb diets, it doesn't quite go far enough into the metabolic and hormonal disruptions around long term low carb diets.
What metabolic and hormonal disruptions?
I apologize for the long video. It is queued up to start hopefully at 13:51. Also the last 25-30 minutes the Q&A asks and talks about keto diets.
this is a presentation by an endocrinologist with 25 years of clinical experience specializing in diabetes. In this presentation she discusses how low carb diets affects your hormones and metabolism and patients developing diabetes from low carb diets who never had diabetes before. Also, that going too low in carbs is a stressor on the body(adrenals?). The biochemistry is above the layman head, but it is very eye opening seeing as her old books were based on using low carb diets. My lab result confirm a lot of what negative effects she is talking about. She says short-term low carb studies are promising but the negative effects don't manifest until a much longer timeframe. She discusses nitric oxide,cortisol, adrenaline, noradrenaline, insulin, thyroid, adrenal fatigue etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm0MG_zYIdQ&t=13m51s
Some of what she said made sense to me.
A couple of years ago I was taking cortisol. I was moderate to high carb, recovering from some autoimmune issues, and my cortisol was low. I was probably at the beginning of prediabetes. Cortisol (meds)+ insulin = fat gain. I gained 20lbs in one year.
The fact that she says we can't rebuild like we could when we were younger. Makes sense.
She says cortisol will go up on a LC diet. That may not be a problem for me.
I do have insulin resistance. If I eat above 30g of carbs in one day, the next day my FBG is usually up around the prediabetic levels again. Same happens when sick. If I exercise, FBG goes down... This seems to fly in the face of what she is saying.
I can't figure out how she expects those with insulin resistance to treat themselves. We're supposed to eat everything in moderation. We're not supposed to go low carb? Moderation should work? What if it doesn't? It doesn't appear to work for me. I KNOW what my BG looks like if I eat 75+ g of carbs per meal.
I dunno. Maybe her books would make more sense for someone like me. The video didn't. I suspect she is just another diet book author though, meaning it may work for some but don't assume it is true for you.
In her opinion, diabetes isn't about fasting glucose, so she isn't predicting FBG would go up with exercise.
In her talk, diabetes is a point where intracellularly, certain hormonal pathways no longer operate - for her the main one is she says a diabetic no longer properly produces nitric oxide when signaled by insulin, which means the body is getting set up for heart disease.
Yes, I get that, but what are we (those with insulin resistance) supposed to do? It seemed like she wants us to wait it out. Not go LCHF. But then her online info seems to promote levels of low carb that could put people into ketosis.
Her treatment plan is unclear to me. She says low insulin and blood glucose are not the solution, but what is?
I am hoping she means carb timing. Eat some carbs but time it around exercise so the carbs are used. This way one could keep the benefits of low carb while raising insulin once a day.
I have requested her books from the library. I'll give my opinion once done0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I also know that not everyone would benefit from a lchf just like a zone or moderation diet will not help everyone.
This I agree with. If everyone could agree on this and not insist that there's One Best Diet (which IMO seems to be promoted mainly by the keto folks, but occasionally by moderation types), we'd have a much happier forum.
I don't know if it is mostly keto folks... there's a lot less of us around. I suppose it is possible that we are both noticing the posts that bother us - posts that say our way of eating is wrong or inferior.
Numbers aside, I think most of the non-keto folks are like me -- we have a particular way we like to eat but understand that there are many different ways that people can eat in a healthy fashion, including keto. That's why I always say it can work for people and is worth experimenting with if you aren't already happy with what you are doing.
It seems to me that lately lots and lots of keto folks like to argue that that's the only way to be healthy and that people should reduce fruit and even veg and the like. Lots of drivebys along those lines lately, among other things.
I'm also not keto, and do not see the boards this way.
You've always seemed to me biased toward the low carb POV, even when the MFP group is pushing stuff like carnivous diets. Given that I think your POV is similar to mine -- basically Walter Willett -- and that's anti tons of sat fat and certainly anti reducing veg and fruit and legumes and whole grains, I've found that odd.
I am very Michael Pollan: eat (real) food, not too much, mostly plants.
I very much like Pollan as well.As I've hurtled toward menopause, and then hit it full on, I have further reduced my consumption of refined grains.
I've never eaten lots of grains, but am reducing more lately (this obviously means refined as well). I'm going to do an experiment of low fat vs. low carb vs. 40-30-30 to see if I feel better, mostly re exercise and because I think it will interest me. I'm also doing Cron-O-Meter to interest me.And yes, I've always been happy to support folks trying a lower carb diet for their health. As well as those attempting to reduce their consumption of refined carbs.
So have I. I consider that different than insisting that one must lower carbs for health reasons or the like.
[quote}Both are valid approaches to improving health, and lower the number on the scale. However, you'll note that I only offer guidance to folks asking about those topics. If someone is doing calorie counting, I don't say "hey why not go low carb instead". I offer ideas for calorie counting.[/quote]
Sadly, your approach is not the only one, which is why I brought it up. (Also, I think far more people do low carb to improve weight, and health only indirectly, and a very low carb diet isn't the best approach to improving health unless you are someone who doesn't want to eat many fruits and veg. But I do think that getting weight in check is the best first step for most.)Perhaps if Keto-ers weren't told daily (including in this thread) that what they're doing is bad, unhealthy, and doomed to fail, the ones who do speak out loudly wouldn't feel inclined.
I don't think that's at all the case. Far more common lately is ketoers claiming that eating 40-50% carbs is inherently unhealthy.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Traveler120 wrote: »Here's another suggestion: The Starch Solution - by Dr. John McDougall.
Have you read it? What's the gist?
I've read it. Eat potatoes (and other whole foods carbs) -- don't worry about protein.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Traveler120 wrote: »Here's another suggestion: The Starch Solution - by Dr. John McDougall.
Have you read it? What's the gist?
I've read it. Eat potatoes (and other whole foods carbs) -- don't worry about protein.
I believe it's also low fat.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Traveler120 wrote: »Here's another suggestion: The Starch Solution - by Dr. John McDougall.
Have you read it? What's the gist?
I've read it. Eat potatoes (and other whole foods carbs) -- don't worry about protein.
I believe it's also low fat.
Yes.0 -
I'm a huge fan of Pollan too, I think he's great.
I read Lustig's "Fat Chance" and Taubes' "Good Calories and Bad Calories" and "Why We Get Fat". I liked these books and think they made a lot of sense--but I see a lot of anti-Lustig sentiment on these boards. Can someone recommend a book that gives an alternate view to Lustig's theories, or maybe a book that outright disagrees with him?0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »This one was a good read:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Low-Carb-Myth-Determine/dp/1942761325/ref=br_lf_m_497vzbcvrpng9yy_1_1_img/181-2648524-1335660?ie=UTF8&s=books
If you want to get really deep this post by researcher Denise Minger is great
http://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in-defense-of-low-fat-a-call-for-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/
I will look into the Low Carb Myth. I am eating LCHF to improve my health, and it has worked. The book looks like it focuses on fat loss with a higher carb diet only, and not the improvements to autoimmune diseases or arthritis - inflammation - on a LCHF diet.... Doesn't look promising to someone coming from my direction. More of a "rah-rah moderation" book.
Not really about "moderation". The author is definitely against highly processed foods. But he does dive into a lot of the dogma with low carb diets, it doesn't quite go far enough into the metabolic and hormonal disruptions around long term low carb diets.
What metabolic and hormonal disruptions?
I apologize for the long video. It is queued up to start hopefully at 13:51. Also the last 25-30 minutes the Q&A asks and talks about keto diets.
this is a presentation by an endocrinologist with 25 years of clinical experience specializing in diabetes. In this presentation she discusses how low carb diets affects your hormones and metabolism and patients developing diabetes from low carb diets who never had diabetes before. Also, that going too low in carbs is a stressor on the body(adrenals?). The biochemistry is above the layman head, but it is very eye opening seeing as her old books were based on using low carb diets. My lab result confirm a lot of what negative effects she is talking about. She says short-term low carb studies are promising but the negative effects don't manifest until a much longer timeframe. She discusses nitric oxide,cortisol, adrenaline, noradrenaline, insulin, thyroid, adrenal fatigue etc.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm0MG_zYIdQ&t=13m51s
Some of what she said made sense to me.
A couple of years ago I was taking cortisol. I was moderate to high carb, recovering from some autoimmune issues, and my cortisol was low. I was probably at the beginning of prediabetes. Cortisol (meds)+ insulin = fat gain. I gained 20lbs in one year.
The fact that she says we can't rebuild like we could when we were younger. Makes sense.
She says cortisol will go up on a LC diet. That may not be a problem for me.
I do have insulin resistance. If I eat above 30g of carbs in one day, the next day my FBG is usually up around the prediabetic levels again. Same happens when sick. If I exercise, FBG goes down... This seems to fly in the face of what she is saying.
I can't figure out how she expects those with insulin resistance to treat themselves. We're supposed to eat everything in moderation. We're not supposed to go low carb? Moderation should work? What if it doesn't? It doesn't appear to work for me. I KNOW what my BG looks like if I eat 75+ g of carbs per meal.
I dunno. Maybe her books would make more sense for someone like me. The video didn't. I suspect she is just another diet book author though, meaning it may work for some but don't assume it is true for you.
In her opinion, diabetes isn't about fasting glucose, so she isn't predicting FBG would go up with exercise.
In her talk, diabetes is a point where intracellularly, certain hormonal pathways no longer operate - for her the main one is she says a diabetic no longer properly produces nitric oxide when signaled by insulin, which means the body is getting set up for heart disease.
interesting, interesting, do you want to buy her supplements?
http://www.schwarzbeinprinciple.com/pgs/shop/supplmnts/store_supplmnts.html
"There are many choices and brands of supplements available. This has only created chaos and confusion for the consumer.[...]To help my patients, I decided to carry supplements in my office."
very generous, isn't it?
I'm not sure why you feel the need to address a veiled ad hominem about the doctor towards me. I don't agree with her assessment and I've seen a couple things she's said that I vehemently disagree with. I was merely explaining what claims she's making.0 -
It sounds like she wrote a low carb book originally and at one point thought it was what treated diabetes. Then as time went on, she feels some research, both in terms of being able to see the cellular chemistry and diet studies has shown that low carbing for IR and diabetics just leads to heart problems.IdoScience wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »This one was a good read:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Low-Carb-Myth-Determine/dp/1942761325/ref=br_lf_m_497vzbcvrpng9yy_1_1_img/181-2648524-1335660?ie=UTF8&s=books
If you want to get really deep this post by researcher Denise Minger is great
http://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in-defense-of-low-fat-a-call-for-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/
I will look into the Low Carb Myth. I am eating LCHF to improve my health, and it has worked. The book looks like it focuses on fat loss with a higher carb diet only, and not the improvements to autoimmune diseases or arthritis - inflammation - on a LCHF diet.... Doesn't look promising to someone coming from my direction. More of a "rah-rah moderation" book.
Not really about "moderation". The author is definitely against highly processed foods. But he does dive into a lot of the dogma with low carb diets, it doesn't quite go far enough into the metabolic and hormonal disruptions around long term low carb diets.
What metabolic and hormonal disruptions?
I apologize for the long video. It is queued up to start hopefully at 13:51. Also the last 25-30 minutes the Q&A asks and talks about keto diets.
this is a presentation by an endocrinologist with 25 years of clinical experience specializing in diabetes. In this presentation she discusses how low carb diets affects your hormones and metabolism and patients developing diabetes from low carb diets who never had diabetes before. Also, that going too low in carbs is a stressor on the body(adrenals?). The biochemistry is above the layman head, but it is very eye opening seeing as her old books were based on using low carb diets. My lab result confirm a lot of what negative effects she is talking about. She says short-term low carb studies are promising but the negative effects don't manifest until a much longer timeframe. She discusses nitric oxide,cortisol, adrenaline, noradrenaline, insulin, thyroid, adrenal fatigue etc.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm0MG_zYIdQ&t=13m51s
Some of what she said made sense to me.
A couple of years ago I was taking cortisol. I was moderate to high carb, recovering from some autoimmune issues, and my cortisol was low. I was probably at the beginning of prediabetes. Cortisol (meds)+ insulin = fat gain. I gained 20lbs in one year.
The fact that she says we can't rebuild like we could when we were younger. Makes sense.
She says cortisol will go up on a LC diet. That may not be a problem for me.
I do have insulin resistance. If I eat above 30g of carbs in one day, the next day my FBG is usually up around the prediabetic levels again. Same happens when sick. If I exercise, FBG goes down... This seems to fly in the face of what she is saying.
I can't figure out how she expects those with insulin resistance to treat themselves. We're supposed to eat everything in moderation. We're not supposed to go low carb? Moderation should work? What if it doesn't? It doesn't appear to work for me. I KNOW what my BG looks like if I eat 75+ g of carbs per meal.
I dunno. Maybe her books would make more sense for someone like me. The video didn't. I suspect she is just another diet book author though, meaning it may work for some but don't assume it is true for you.
In her opinion, diabetes isn't about fasting glucose, so she isn't predicting FBG would go up with exercise.
In her talk, diabetes is a point where intracellularly, certain hormonal pathways no longer operate - for her the main one is she says a diabetic no longer properly produces nitric oxide when signaled by insulin, which means the body is getting set up for heart disease.
Yes, I get that, but what are we (those with insulin resistance) supposed to do? It seemed like she wants us to wait it out. Not go LCHF. But then her online info seems to promote levels of low carb that could put people into ketosis.
Her treatment plan is unclear to me. She says low insulin and blood glucose are not the solution, but what is?
I am hoping she means carb timing. Eat some carbs but time it around exercise so the carbs are used. This way one could keep the benefits of low carb while raising insulin once a day.
I have requested her books from the library. I'll give my opinion once done
So now she seems to advocate doing controlled carb but she doesn't seem to get into specifics in the video. She seems to be of the opinion that a person has to get their insulin and glucose under control slowly, and that snapping it back with low carb is a case of the cure being as bad as the poison. I think she said in the video she doesn't think you should be getting glucose under control in under a year.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I also know that not everyone would benefit from a lchf just like a zone or moderation diet will not help everyone.
This I agree with. If everyone could agree on this and not insist that there's One Best Diet (which IMO seems to be promoted mainly by the keto folks, but occasionally by moderation types), we'd have a much happier forum.
I don't know if it is mostly keto folks... there's a lot less of us around. I suppose it is possible that we are both noticing the posts that bother us - posts that say our way of eating is wrong or inferior.
Numbers aside, I think most of the non-keto folks are like me -- we have a particular way we like to eat but understand that there are many different ways that people can eat in a healthy fashion, including keto. That's why I always say it can work for people and is worth experimenting with if you aren't already happy with what you are doing.
It seems to me that lately lots and lots of keto folks like to argue that that's the only way to be healthy and that people should reduce fruit and even veg and the like. Lots of drivebys along those lines lately, among other things.
That's not what I'm seeing (I'm not keto etc - I'm actually more your WOE). I'm leaving it at that though.
I'velemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I also know that not everyone would benefit from a lchf just like a zone or moderation diet will not help everyone.
This I agree with. If everyone could agree on this and not insist that there's One Best Diet (which IMO seems to be promoted mainly by the keto folks, but occasionally by moderation types), we'd have a much happier forum.
I don't know if it is mostly keto folks... there's a lot less of us around. I suppose it is possible that we are both noticing the posts that bother us - posts that say our way of eating is wrong or inferior.
Numbers aside, I think most of the non-keto folks are like me -- we have a particular way we like to eat but understand that there are many different ways that people can eat in a healthy fashion, including keto. That's why I always say it can work for people and is worth experimenting with if you aren't already happy with what you are doing.
It seems to me that lately lots and lots of keto folks like to argue that that's the only way to be healthy and that people should reduce fruit and even veg and the like. Lots of drivebys along those lines lately, among other things.
That's not what I'm seeing (I'm not keto etc - I'm actually more your WOE). I'm leaving it at that though.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find non keto folks who insist others must eat like them, but I invite you to email me with examples.
That was not the original statement I disagreed with.
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For WIW I've read most of The Gluten Lie and I liked it. I survived the Gluten chapter. Learnt a lot it there. He mentions Peter Gibson whose sciencing I have a lot of time for.
I don't think it's condescending or patronising. It'd be a shame if you avoided the read off the back of the Slate article he wrote. However, some of it would be coals to Newcastle for members of MFP. Personally, for me on MFP, I'm constantly trying to tie one little gem from one thread to another little gem in another thread (which may be months later) and it gets a little confusing and frustrating. It's all solidified in this book.
He uses history and some biblical references which keeps you interested. I also felt these were used to soothe the reader somewhat as in, it's ok, we've been led by diet myths and bogus science claims for centuries. The fact that he has no investment in that industry or the science is to the readers advantage I feel. IMO he has a genuine intent to empower the reader with a dose of "healthy scepticism" so that you can "eat your dinner in peace". (Loosely quoted). I didn't feel like he was trying to cave my head in.
The "Unpacked Diet" that NV refers is not his. I was a little taken aback by that myself thinking he was contradicting all that he'd just said but further flicking through revealed there are two sections with the same text. The first is the "Unpacked Diet" as I mentioned and the second section is "UNPACKED: The Unpacked diet" - same text but deconstructed using critical literacy thought bubbles. It was worth reading. Interesting to read it wothout the aid of his thought bubbles and then again with that aid.kthompson601 wrote: »I'm a huge fan of Pollan too, I think he's great.
I read Lustig's "Fat Chance" and Taubes' "Good Calories and Bad Calories" and "Why We Get Fat". I liked these books and think they made a lot of sense--but I see a lot of anti-Lustig sentiment on these boards. Can someone recommend a book that gives an alternate view to Lustig's theories, or maybe a book that outright disagrees with him?
You would find this in The Gluten Lie.
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Gianfranco_R wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »This one was a good read:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Low-Carb-Myth-Determine/dp/1942761325/ref=br_lf_m_497vzbcvrpng9yy_1_1_img/181-2648524-1335660?ie=UTF8&s=books
If you want to get really deep this post by researcher Denise Minger is great
http://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in-defense-of-low-fat-a-call-for-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/
I will look into the Low Carb Myth. I am eating LCHF to improve my health, and it has worked. The book looks like it focuses on fat loss with a higher carb diet only, and not the improvements to autoimmune diseases or arthritis - inflammation - on a LCHF diet.... Doesn't look promising to someone coming from my direction. More of a "rah-rah moderation" book.
Not really about "moderation". The author is definitely against highly processed foods. But he does dive into a lot of the dogma with low carb diets, it doesn't quite go far enough into the metabolic and hormonal disruptions around long term low carb diets.
What metabolic and hormonal disruptions?
I apologize for the long video. It is queued up to start hopefully at 13:51. Also the last 25-30 minutes the Q&A asks and talks about keto diets.
this is a presentation by an endocrinologist with 25 years of clinical experience specializing in diabetes. In this presentation she discusses how low carb diets affects your hormones and metabolism and patients developing diabetes from low carb diets who never had diabetes before. Also, that going too low in carbs is a stressor on the body(adrenals?). The biochemistry is above the layman head, but it is very eye opening seeing as her old books were based on using low carb diets. My lab result confirm a lot of what negative effects she is talking about. She says short-term low carb studies are promising but the negative effects don't manifest until a much longer timeframe. She discusses nitric oxide,cortisol, adrenaline, noradrenaline, insulin, thyroid, adrenal fatigue etc.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm0MG_zYIdQ&t=13m51s
Some of what she said made sense to me.
A couple of years ago I was taking cortisol. I was moderate to high carb, recovering from some autoimmune issues, and my cortisol was low. I was probably at the beginning of prediabetes. Cortisol (meds)+ insulin = fat gain. I gained 20lbs in one year.
The fact that she says we can't rebuild like we could when we were younger. Makes sense.
She says cortisol will go up on a LC diet. That may not be a problem for me.
I do have insulin resistance. If I eat above 30g of carbs in one day, the next day my FBG is usually up around the prediabetic levels again. Same happens when sick. If I exercise, FBG goes down... This seems to fly in the face of what she is saying.
I can't figure out how she expects those with insulin resistance to treat themselves. We're supposed to eat everything in moderation. We're not supposed to go low carb? Moderation should work? What if it doesn't? It doesn't appear to work for me. I KNOW what my BG looks like if I eat 75+ g of carbs per meal.
I dunno. Maybe her books would make more sense for someone like me. The video didn't. I suspect she is just another diet book author though, meaning it may work for some but don't assume it is true for you.
In her opinion, diabetes isn't about fasting glucose, so she isn't predicting FBG would go up with exercise.
In her talk, diabetes is a point where intracellularly, certain hormonal pathways no longer operate - for her the main one is she says a diabetic no longer properly produces nitric oxide when signaled by insulin, which means the body is getting set up for heart disease.
interesting, interesting, do you want to buy her supplements?
http://www.schwarzbeinprinciple.com/pgs/shop/supplmnts/store_supplmnts.html
"There are many choices and brands of supplements available. This has only created chaos and confusion for the consumer.[...]To help my patients, I decided to carry supplements in my office."
very generous, isn't it?
I'm not sure why you feel the need to address a veiled ad hominem about the doctor towards me. I don't agree with her assessment and I've seen a couple things she's said that I vehemently disagree with. I was merely explaining what claims she's making.
it's a conversation, of course the veil "ad hominem" was not meant to attack or criticize you.
Oh, by the way, do you want some detox pills?
http://www.schwarzbeinprinciple.com/pgs/shop/supplmnts/descript/desc_antioxid.html0 -
Correction..."The Unpacked Diet" is the authors construction - a loose amalgamation of a variety of texts within the diet genre that highlights the common persausive language that encourage a reader to invest emotionally in its POV.0
-
Gianfranco_R wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »This one was a good read:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Low-Carb-Myth-Determine/dp/1942761325/ref=br_lf_m_497vzbcvrpng9yy_1_1_img/181-2648524-1335660?ie=UTF8&s=books
If you want to get really deep this post by researcher Denise Minger is great
http://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in-defense-of-low-fat-a-call-for-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/
I will look into the Low Carb Myth. I am eating LCHF to improve my health, and it has worked. The book looks like it focuses on fat loss with a higher carb diet only, and not the improvements to autoimmune diseases or arthritis - inflammation - on a LCHF diet.... Doesn't look promising to someone coming from my direction. More of a "rah-rah moderation" book.
Not really about "moderation". The author is definitely against highly processed foods. But he does dive into a lot of the dogma with low carb diets, it doesn't quite go far enough into the metabolic and hormonal disruptions around long term low carb diets.
What metabolic and hormonal disruptions?
I apologize for the long video. It is queued up to start hopefully at 13:51. Also the last 25-30 minutes the Q&A asks and talks about keto diets.
this is a presentation by an endocrinologist with 25 years of clinical experience specializing in diabetes. In this presentation she discusses how low carb diets affects your hormones and metabolism and patients developing diabetes from low carb diets who never had diabetes before. Also, that going too low in carbs is a stressor on the body(adrenals?). The biochemistry is above the layman head, but it is very eye opening seeing as her old books were based on using low carb diets. My lab result confirm a lot of what negative effects she is talking about. She says short-term low carb studies are promising but the negative effects don't manifest until a much longer timeframe. She discusses nitric oxide,cortisol, adrenaline, noradrenaline, insulin, thyroid, adrenal fatigue etc.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm0MG_zYIdQ&t=13m51s
Some of what she said made sense to me.
A couple of years ago I was taking cortisol. I was moderate to high carb, recovering from some autoimmune issues, and my cortisol was low. I was probably at the beginning of prediabetes. Cortisol (meds)+ insulin = fat gain. I gained 20lbs in one year.
The fact that she says we can't rebuild like we could when we were younger. Makes sense.
She says cortisol will go up on a LC diet. That may not be a problem for me.
I do have insulin resistance. If I eat above 30g of carbs in one day, the next day my FBG is usually up around the prediabetic levels again. Same happens when sick. If I exercise, FBG goes down... This seems to fly in the face of what she is saying.
I can't figure out how she expects those with insulin resistance to treat themselves. We're supposed to eat everything in moderation. We're not supposed to go low carb? Moderation should work? What if it doesn't? It doesn't appear to work for me. I KNOW what my BG looks like if I eat 75+ g of carbs per meal.
I dunno. Maybe her books would make more sense for someone like me. The video didn't. I suspect she is just another diet book author though, meaning it may work for some but don't assume it is true for you.
In her opinion, diabetes isn't about fasting glucose, so she isn't predicting FBG would go up with exercise.
In her talk, diabetes is a point where intracellularly, certain hormonal pathways no longer operate - for her the main one is she says a diabetic no longer properly produces nitric oxide when signaled by insulin, which means the body is getting set up for heart disease.
interesting, interesting, do you want to buy her supplements?
http://www.schwarzbeinprinciple.com/pgs/shop/supplmnts/store_supplmnts.html
"There are many choices and brands of supplements available. This has only created chaos and confusion for the consumer.[...]To help my patients, I decided to carry supplements in my office."
very generous, isn't it?
I'm not sure why you feel the need to address a veiled ad hominem about the doctor towards me. I don't agree with her assessment and I've seen a couple things she's said that I vehemently disagree with. I was merely explaining what claims she's making.
it's a conversation, of course the veil "ad hominem" was not meant to attack or criticize you.
Oh, by the way, do you want some detox pills?
http://www.schwarzbeinprinciple.com/pgs/shop/supplmnts/descript/desc_antioxid.html
Please don't insult my intelligence. You're deliberately attack character of Schwarzbein by bringing up things that have nothing to do with what she said in the video, and sadly, it says quite a bit about how you don't have anything legitimate to discuss. The ad hominem isn't at at me, it is at Schwarzbein. The interesting thing is, I don't see where in this thread you've tried to imply that all the books in this thread are illegitimate - because you do realize selling a book is also selling people something, right?
What you may not understand is, if Dr. Mercola himself says gravity causes object to fall, I don't immediately look to say gravity is wrong because it is Mercola.
And again, I'm not sure why you think I care just because I explained her position. I've already said she's said some things in the video itself that I disagree with. I may have to look up the cardiac conditions cause by low carb trials she's mentioned in it though.0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »This one was a good read:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Low-Carb-Myth-Determine/dp/1942761325/ref=br_lf_m_497vzbcvrpng9yy_1_1_img/181-2648524-1335660?ie=UTF8&s=books
If you want to get really deep this post by researcher Denise Minger is great
http://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in-defense-of-low-fat-a-call-for-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/
I will look into the Low Carb Myth. I am eating LCHF to improve my health, and it has worked. The book looks like it focuses on fat loss with a higher carb diet only, and not the improvements to autoimmune diseases or arthritis - inflammation - on a LCHF diet.... Doesn't look promising to someone coming from my direction. More of a "rah-rah moderation" book.
Not really about "moderation". The author is definitely against highly processed foods. But he does dive into a lot of the dogma with low carb diets, it doesn't quite go far enough into the metabolic and hormonal disruptions around long term low carb diets.
What metabolic and hormonal disruptions?
I apologize for the long video. It is queued up to start hopefully at 13:51. Also the last 25-30 minutes the Q&A asks and talks about keto diets.
this is a presentation by an endocrinologist with 25 years of clinical experience specializing in diabetes. In this presentation she discusses how low carb diets affects your hormones and metabolism and patients developing diabetes from low carb diets who never had diabetes before. Also, that going too low in carbs is a stressor on the body(adrenals?). The biochemistry is above the layman head, but it is very eye opening seeing as her old books were based on using low carb diets. My lab result confirm a lot of what negative effects she is talking about. She says short-term low carb studies are promising but the negative effects don't manifest until a much longer timeframe. She discusses nitric oxide,cortisol, adrenaline, noradrenaline, insulin, thyroid, adrenal fatigue etc.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm0MG_zYIdQ&t=13m51s
Some of what she said made sense to me.
A couple of years ago I was taking cortisol. I was moderate to high carb, recovering from some autoimmune issues, and my cortisol was low. I was probably at the beginning of prediabetes. Cortisol (meds)+ insulin = fat gain. I gained 20lbs in one year.
The fact that she says we can't rebuild like we could when we were younger. Makes sense.
She says cortisol will go up on a LC diet. That may not be a problem for me.
I do have insulin resistance. If I eat above 30g of carbs in one day, the next day my FBG is usually up around the prediabetic levels again. Same happens when sick. If I exercise, FBG goes down... This seems to fly in the face of what she is saying.
I can't figure out how she expects those with insulin resistance to treat themselves. We're supposed to eat everything in moderation. We're not supposed to go low carb? Moderation should work? What if it doesn't? It doesn't appear to work for me. I KNOW what my BG looks like if I eat 75+ g of carbs per meal.
I dunno. Maybe her books would make more sense for someone like me. The video didn't. I suspect she is just another diet book author though, meaning it may work for some but don't assume it is true for you.
In her opinion, diabetes isn't about fasting glucose, so she isn't predicting FBG would go up with exercise.
In her talk, diabetes is a point where intracellularly, certain hormonal pathways no longer operate - for her the main one is she says a diabetic no longer properly produces nitric oxide when signaled by insulin, which means the body is getting set up for heart disease.
interesting, interesting, do you want to buy her supplements?
http://www.schwarzbeinprinciple.com/pgs/shop/supplmnts/store_supplmnts.html
"There are many choices and brands of supplements available. This has only created chaos and confusion for the consumer.[...]To help my patients, I decided to carry supplements in my office."
very generous, isn't it?
I'm not sure why you feel the need to address a veiled ad hominem about the doctor towards me. I don't agree with her assessment and I've seen a couple things she's said that I vehemently disagree with. I was merely explaining what claims she's making.
it's a conversation, of course the veil "ad hominem" was not meant to attack or criticize you.
Oh, by the way, do you want some detox pills?
http://www.schwarzbeinprinciple.com/pgs/shop/supplmnts/descript/desc_antioxid.html
Please don't insult my intelligence. You're deliberately attack character of Schwarzbein by bringing up things that have nothing to do with what she said in the video, and sadly, it says quite a bit about how you don't have anything legitimate to discuss. The ad hominem isn't at at me, it is at Schwarzbein. The interesting thing is, I don't see where in this thread you've tried to imply that all the books in this thread are illegitimate - because you do realize selling a book is also selling people something, right?
What you may not understand is, if Dr. Mercola himself says gravity causes object to fall, I don't immediately look to say gravity is wrong because it is Mercola.
And again, I'm not sure why you think I care just because I explained her position. I've already said she's said some things in the video itself that I disagree with. I may have to look up the cardiac conditions cause by low carb trials she's mentioned in it though.
I confess that eventually I haven't watched the video, because after having read her website, especially this part:
Nutrients are essential components of the Schwarzbein Principle Program. They are used in conjunction with food to create a healthy nutrition program that will enable your body to rebalance its hormone systems. Unfortunately, we cannot get enough of all the necessary nutrients from eating food.
Therefore, I recommend the following core supplement program for everyone:[...] (from the first link I "addressed" to you)
I've decided that it is not worth my time.
Choices...
0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Traveler120 wrote: »Here's another suggestion: The Starch Solution - by Dr. John McDougall.
Have you read it? What's the gist?
I've read it. Eat potatoes (and other whole foods carbs) -- don't worry about protein.
I believe it's also low fat.
I should add that because I've read it doesn't mean I'm a fan. I just find different diet arguments interesting.0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »This one was a good read:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Low-Carb-Myth-Determine/dp/1942761325/ref=br_lf_m_497vzbcvrpng9yy_1_1_img/181-2648524-1335660?ie=UTF8&s=books
If you want to get really deep this post by researcher Denise Minger is great
http://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in-defense-of-low-fat-a-call-for-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/
I will look into the Low Carb Myth. I am eating LCHF to improve my health, and it has worked. The book looks like it focuses on fat loss with a higher carb diet only, and not the improvements to autoimmune diseases or arthritis - inflammation - on a LCHF diet.... Doesn't look promising to someone coming from my direction. More of a "rah-rah moderation" book.
Not really about "moderation". The author is definitely against highly processed foods. But he does dive into a lot of the dogma with low carb diets, it doesn't quite go far enough into the metabolic and hormonal disruptions around long term low carb diets.
What metabolic and hormonal disruptions?
I apologize for the long video. It is queued up to start hopefully at 13:51. Also the last 25-30 minutes the Q&A asks and talks about keto diets.
this is a presentation by an endocrinologist with 25 years of clinical experience specializing in diabetes. In this presentation she discusses how low carb diets affects your hormones and metabolism and patients developing diabetes from low carb diets who never had diabetes before. Also, that going too low in carbs is a stressor on the body(adrenals?). The biochemistry is above the layman head, but it is very eye opening seeing as her old books were based on using low carb diets. My lab result confirm a lot of what negative effects she is talking about. She says short-term low carb studies are promising but the negative effects don't manifest until a much longer timeframe. She discusses nitric oxide,cortisol, adrenaline, noradrenaline, insulin, thyroid, adrenal fatigue etc.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm0MG_zYIdQ&t=13m51s
Some of what she said made sense to me.
A couple of years ago I was taking cortisol. I was moderate to high carb, recovering from some autoimmune issues, and my cortisol was low. I was probably at the beginning of prediabetes. Cortisol (meds)+ insulin = fat gain. I gained 20lbs in one year.
The fact that she says we can't rebuild like we could when we were younger. Makes sense.
She says cortisol will go up on a LC diet. That may not be a problem for me.
I do have insulin resistance. If I eat above 30g of carbs in one day, the next day my FBG is usually up around the prediabetic levels again. Same happens when sick. If I exercise, FBG goes down... This seems to fly in the face of what she is saying.
I can't figure out how she expects those with insulin resistance to treat themselves. We're supposed to eat everything in moderation. We're not supposed to go low carb? Moderation should work? What if it doesn't? It doesn't appear to work for me. I KNOW what my BG looks like if I eat 75+ g of carbs per meal.
I dunno. Maybe her books would make more sense for someone like me. The video didn't. I suspect she is just another diet book author though, meaning it may work for some but don't assume it is true for you.
In her opinion, diabetes isn't about fasting glucose, so she isn't predicting FBG would go up with exercise.
In her talk, diabetes is a point where intracellularly, certain hormonal pathways no longer operate - for her the main one is she says a diabetic no longer properly produces nitric oxide when signaled by insulin, which means the body is getting set up for heart disease.
interesting, interesting, do you want to buy her supplements?
http://www.schwarzbeinprinciple.com/pgs/shop/supplmnts/store_supplmnts.html
"There are many choices and brands of supplements available. This has only created chaos and confusion for the consumer.[...]To help my patients, I decided to carry supplements in my office."
very generous, isn't it?
I'm not sure why you feel the need to address a veiled ad hominem about the doctor towards me. I don't agree with her assessment and I've seen a couple things she's said that I vehemently disagree with. I was merely explaining what claims she's making.
it's a conversation, of course the veil "ad hominem" was not meant to attack or criticize you.
Oh, by the way, do you want some detox pills?
http://www.schwarzbeinprinciple.com/pgs/shop/supplmnts/descript/desc_antioxid.html
Please don't insult my intelligence. You're deliberately attack character of Schwarzbein by bringing up things that have nothing to do with what she said in the video, and sadly, it says quite a bit about how you don't have anything legitimate to discuss. The ad hominem isn't at at me, it is at Schwarzbein. The interesting thing is, I don't see where in this thread you've tried to imply that all the books in this thread are illegitimate - because you do realize selling a book is also selling people something, right?
What you may not understand is, if Dr. Mercola himself says gravity causes object to fall, I don't immediately look to say gravity is wrong because it is Mercola.
And again, I'm not sure why you think I care just because I explained her position. I've already said she's said some things in the video itself that I disagree with. I may have to look up the cardiac conditions cause by low carb trials she's mentioned in it though.
I confess that eventually I haven't watched the video, because after having read her website, especially this part:
Nutrients are essential components of the Schwarzbein Principle Program. They are used in conjunction with food to create a healthy nutrition program that will enable your body to rebalance its hormone systems. Unfortunately, we cannot get enough of all the necessary nutrients from eating food.
Therefore, I recommend the following core supplement program for everyone:[...] (from the first link I "addressed" to you)
I've decided that it is not worth my time.
Choices...
So I assume you don't read any low carb books because almost every low carb person hawks products, right? I assume you don't read any diet books because diet books exist to sell diet books, right?
It is poor reasoning and an ad hominem. I'd enjoy having a conversation on what parts of her science is wrong, where it is wrong.0 -
the actual "maintenance diet" suggested by Atkins is not far off a 30-40% protein diet with adequate fat...and a LOT of people here eat close to those macros.0
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This content has been removed.
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Gianfranco_R wrote: »I confess that eventually I haven't watched the video
I dropped out after about the 5th "mmmkay" and decided to watch South Park instead.
re heart disease, apart from the well known reductions in triglycerides and insulin plus improved Total/HDL cholesterol ratios (risk factor") there's always the published evidence -
"Of the 23 patients who have used a low-carbohydrate diet and for whom we have long-term data, two have suffered a cardiovascular event while four of the six controls who never changed diet have suffered several cardiovascular events." http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/5/1/140 -
Yeah, her occasional nervous laugh at her own non-jokes bothered me more than the mmms. Her asking the audience to get up and stretch wasn't necessarily about people's health.Gianfranco_R wrote: »I confess that eventually I haven't watched the video
I dropped out after about the 5th "mmmkay" and decided to watch South Park instead.
re heart disease, apart from the well known reductions in triglycerides and insulin plus improved Total/HDL cholesterol ratios (risk factor") there's always the published evidence -
"Of the 23 patients who have used a low-carbohydrate diet and for whom we have long-term data, two have suffered a cardiovascular event while four of the six controls who never changed diet have suffered several cardiovascular events." http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/5/1/140 -
For WIW I've read most of The Gluten Lie and I liked it. I survived the Gluten chapter. Learnt a lot it there. He mentions Peter Gibson whose sciencing I have a lot of time for.
I don't think it's condescending or patronising. It'd be a shame if you avoided the read off the back of the Slate article he wrote. However, some of it would be coals to Newcastle for members of MFP. Personally, for me on MFP, I'm constantly trying to tie one little gem from one thread to another little gem in another thread (which may be months later) and it gets a little confusing and frustrating. It's all solidified in this book.
He uses history and some biblical references which keeps you interested. I also felt these were used to soothe the reader somewhat as in, it's ok, we've been led by diet myths and bogus science claims for centuries. The fact that he has no investment in that industry or the science is to the readers advantage I feel. IMO he has a genuine intent to empower the reader with a dose of "healthy scepticism" so that you can "eat your dinner in peace". (Loosely quoted). I didn't feel like he was trying to cave my head in.
The "Unpacked Diet" that NV refers is not his. I was a little taken aback by that myself thinking he was contradicting all that he'd just said but further flicking through revealed there are two sections with the same text. The first is the "Unpacked Diet" as I mentioned and the second section is "UNPACKED: The Unpacked diet" - same text but deconstructed using critical literacy thought bubbles. It was worth reading. Interesting to read it wothout the aid of his thought bubbles and then again with that aid.kthompson601 wrote: »I'm a huge fan of Pollan too, I think he's great.
I read Lustig's "Fat Chance" and Taubes' "Good Calories and Bad Calories" and "Why We Get Fat". I liked these books and think they made a lot of sense--but I see a lot of anti-Lustig sentiment on these boards. Can someone recommend a book that gives an alternate view to Lustig's theories, or maybe a book that outright disagrees with him?
You would find this in The Gluten Lie.
Thanks, @mrsbaldee ! Good to hear the flipside.
I'd like to hear what he says in relation to religion and food. Some forms of dieting can be quite cultish!0 -
For WIW I've read most of The Gluten Lie and I liked it. I survived the Gluten chapter. Learnt a lot it there. He mentions Peter Gibson whose sciencing I have a lot of time for.
I don't think it's condescending or patronising. It'd be a shame if you avoided the read off the back of the Slate article he wrote. However, some of it would be coals to Newcastle for members of MFP. Personally, for me on MFP, I'm constantly trying to tie one little gem from one thread to another little gem in another thread (which may be months later) and it gets a little confusing and frustrating. It's all solidified in this book.
He uses history and some biblical references which keeps you interested. I also felt these were used to soothe the reader somewhat as in, it's ok, we've been led by diet myths and bogus science claims for centuries. The fact that he has no investment in that industry or the science is to the readers advantage I feel. IMO he has a genuine intent to empower the reader with a dose of "healthy scepticism" so that you can "eat your dinner in peace". (Loosely quoted). I didn't feel like he was trying to cave my head in.
The "Unpacked Diet" that NV refers is not his. I was a little taken aback by that myself thinking he was contradicting all that he'd just said but further flicking through revealed there are two sections with the same text. The first is the "Unpacked Diet" as I mentioned and the second section is "UNPACKED: The Unpacked diet" - same text but deconstructed using critical literacy thought bubbles. It was worth reading. Interesting to read it wothout the aid of his thought bubbles and then again with that aid.kthompson601 wrote: »I'm a huge fan of Pollan too, I think he's great.
I read Lustig's "Fat Chance" and Taubes' "Good Calories and Bad Calories" and "Why We Get Fat". I liked these books and think they made a lot of sense--but I see a lot of anti-Lustig sentiment on these boards. Can someone recommend a book that gives an alternate view to Lustig's theories, or maybe a book that outright disagrees with him?
You would find this in The Gluten Lie.
Thanks, @mrsbaldee ! Good to hear the flipside.
I'd like to hear what he says in relation to religion and food. Some forms of dieting can be quite cultish!
Agree, the book left me wanting more in that department.
"Calories and Corsets - a history of dieting over 2000 years" I started to read a couple of years ago but couldn't finish. It's loaded with historical fads but at the time I found the layout overloaded my brain. I'm going to revisit that one.
0 -
For WIW I've read most of The Gluten Lie and I liked it. I survived the Gluten chapter. Learnt a lot it there. He mentions Peter Gibson whose sciencing I have a lot of time for.
I don't think it's condescending or patronising. It'd be a shame if you avoided the read off the back of the Slate article he wrote. However, some of it would be coals to Newcastle for members of MFP. Personally, for me on MFP, I'm constantly trying to tie one little gem from one thread to another little gem in another thread (which may be months later) and it gets a little confusing and frustrating. It's all solidified in this book.
He uses history and some biblical references which keeps you interested. I also felt these were used to soothe the reader somewhat as in, it's ok, we've been led by diet myths and bogus science claims for centuries. The fact that he has no investment in that industry or the science is to the readers advantage I feel. IMO he has a genuine intent to empower the reader with a dose of "healthy scepticism" so that you can "eat your dinner in peace". (Loosely quoted). I didn't feel like he was trying to cave my head in.
The "Unpacked Diet" that NV refers is not his. I was a little taken aback by that myself thinking he was contradicting all that he'd just said but further flicking through revealed there are two sections with the same text. The first is the "Unpacked Diet" as I mentioned and the second section is "UNPACKED: The Unpacked diet" - same text but deconstructed using critical literacy thought bubbles. It was worth reading. Interesting to read it wothout the aid of his thought bubbles and then again with that aid.kthompson601 wrote: »I'm a huge fan of Pollan too, I think he's great.
I read Lustig's "Fat Chance" and Taubes' "Good Calories and Bad Calories" and "Why We Get Fat". I liked these books and think they made a lot of sense--but I see a lot of anti-Lustig sentiment on these boards. Can someone recommend a book that gives an alternate view to Lustig's theories, or maybe a book that outright disagrees with him?
You would find this in The Gluten Lie.
Thanks, @mrsbaldee ! Good to hear the flipside.
I'd like to hear what he says in relation to religion and food. Some forms of dieting can be quite cultish!
Agree, the book left me wanting more in that department.
That's odd, because the reviews I've read go into a bit of detail.
Take this quote of his from a thorough article from The Atlantic:
"Ideas about religion can be so powerful that people can't endorse them without giving up a part of their identity. It's the same thing with diets. If you've adopted a diet and it's become part of your identity, asking someone to reconsider something as simple as eating sugar or gluten is kind of like asking someone to give up their faith. To admit that the core of their identity is fundamentally mistaken."
The article is a great read:
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/05/the-puritanical-approach-to-food/392030/0 -
@Orphia - thanks for the article, I enjoyed that (need a re-read). One of my favourite paragraphs quoted.
I didn't mean more as in he was inadequate in that department but obviously there's more history and religious examples (like the monks) than what he could use in the book. Where would I find that?
Can't believe this was sitting in Big W amongst the 21 day detox and Smooth your butt diet etc...and not surprisingly, it wasn't the one flying off the shelf (I'd been eyeing it off for a while).0
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