Relationships and Age (May be Offensive To Some)
Replies
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To be honest, it was a topic of conversation among my friends and I, and everyone believed that the earlier proposals (potential spouses) were more qualified, more attractive, and overall, highly accomplished.
It really doesn't matter if you and your friends think some guy (or some guys) were more "qualified, attractive and accomplished" because it is isn't about you. The cutest guy with the biggest wallet and the longest CV isn't always the best mate. He might be an insensitive jerk, or spend too much time working and not enough time relating to his partner. Maybe she likes hairy dudes and you don't.
In the end, as you said, what matters is her happiness, which is not something you and your friends are in a position to have intimate knowledge over (considering you are 18 and I can only presume this woman with a long history of proposals is somewhat older)
Yeah she's in her forties now. And her parents said something to the effect of the words I stated above! They thought/still think their daughter deserves better, but they've resigned to the fact that she did what she wanted (rather than what they would have wanted) or so it seems.0 -
Om, No.
Infact I think the reason Im still single is cuz I refuse to settle, and men are such a let down
lol. That is comic gold, right thar.
Was thinking the same. The Taylor Swift syndrome, go through soo many guys and state how bad they are. Never once stopping to look at the mirror.0 -
Om, No.
Infact I think the reason Im still single is cuz I refuse to settle, and men are such a let down
lol. That is comic gold, right thar.
Was thinking the same. The Taylor Swift syndrome, go through soo many guys and state how bad they are. Never once stopping to look at the mirror.
The Taylor Swift Syndrome. Wonder if that's been UD'ed. If not, you should submit an entry for that.
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OP, I'm going to agree with you that egoism is part of every human interaction - including romantic entanglements, including parent-child relationships. And that we are, actually, narcissists at bottom.
But it's unfair, and actually, inaccurate, to assume that this reduction represents the whole truth. What's missing from that picture is the subjective *quality* of attachment that accompanies the selfishness of most things we do and are. That quality is the 'I don't know why' you love your father. It's the same thing many posters here are trying to emphasize.
You can look at love from any vantage point you like - neurons, hormones, exchange theory - each offers an explanation for part of the story, but can never account for it in its entirety.
It's normal to be disappointed that love isn't 100% altruistic, but that is the mark of a romantic, not a cynic.
My point is - yes, love is partly selfish, but it doesn't matter. The net effect is, it feels good.0 -
For example, having a child is the most selfish thing a person can do, really. There's no more direct expression of the desire to extend the self, by genes, and legacy.0
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For example, having a child is the most selfish thing a person can do, really. There's no more direct expression of the desire to extend the self, by genes, and legacy.
While that may be the evolutionary driving force behind why certain traits flourished in people, the trait that usually causes someone to have children (other than a surprise) is the desire to nurture. The desire is so strong that we will raise and love children that are not even children we gave birth to (through adoption). The desire to nurture and raise children is what produces healthy, successful children. So, that is the trait that was naturally selected for.0 -
For example, having a child is the most selfish thing a person can do, really. There's no more direct expression of the desire to extend the self, by genes, and legacy.
While that may be the evolutionary driving force behind why certain traits flourished in people, the trait that usually causes someone to have children (other than a surprise) is the desire to nurture. The desire is so strong that we will raise and love children that are not even children we gave birth to (through adoption). The desire to nurture and raise children is what produces healthy, successful children. So, that is the trait that was naturally selected for.
The desire to nurture is the more proximate and salient mechanism, sure. But, it is about self-extension, too, I think even consciously, today. Consider how many people are willing to spend buckets of money and endure all kinds of pain for IVF treatment, and how many children (as young as 1 year old) go unadopted. Consider the pleasure of identifying one's own physical traits in the child (or, those of grandparents, etc). I haven't looked into it, but would be willing to bet that resemblance plays a role in attachment, too.0 -
I believe it is the opposite of what you said...when a person gets older, more assured, confident and knowledgeable they SHOULD become more selective of a Life Partner/Spouse. I know i have; I was in a long term relationship and I know now that I would never stay in a similar relationship, in fact now I can head it off at the "door", actually My Spirit and Mentality is such that I would not even draw that "Type" to Me. Experience is the Best Teacher.
It is Truly Best to be Alone and Happy, than with someone Lonely and Unhappy!0 -
OP, I'm going to agree with you that egoism is part of every human interaction - including romantic entanglements, including parent-child relationships. And that we are, actually, narcissists at bottom.
But it's unfair, and actually, inaccurate, to assume that this reduction represents the whole truth. What's missing from that picture is the subjective *quality* of attachment that accompanies the selfishness of most things we do and are. That quality is the 'I don't know why' you love your father. It's the same thing many posters here are trying to emphasize.
You can look at love from any vantage point you like - neurons, hormones, exchange theory - each offers an explanation for part of the story, but can never account for it in its entirety.
It's normal to be disappointed that love isn't 100% altruistic, but that is the mark of a romantic, not a cynic.
My point is - yes, love is partly selfish, but it doesn't matter. The net effect is, it feels good.
I agree; generalizations should not be made. I guess you're right- it feels good, and therefore the motives/reasons for it are not questioned. Perhaps that is why I never question why I love my father or why he loves me.0 -
For example, having a child is the most selfish thing a person can do, really. There's no more direct expression of the desire to extend the self, by genes, and legacy.
While that may be the evolutionary driving force behind why certain traits flourished in people, the trait that usually causes someone to have children (other than a surprise) is the desire to nurture. The desire is so strong that we will raise and love children that are not even children we gave birth to (through adoption). The desire to nurture and raise children is what produces healthy, successful children. So, that is the trait that was naturally selected for.
The desire to nurture is the more proximate and salient mechanism, sure. But, it is about self-extension, too, I think even consciously, today. Consider how many people are willing to spend buckets of money and endure all kinds of pain for IVF treatment, and how many children (as young as 1 year old) go unadopted. Consider the pleasure of identifying one's own physical traits in the child (or, those of grandparents, etc). I haven't looked into it, but would be willing to bet that resemblance plays a role in attachment, too.
I wholeheartedly agree that resemblance probably plays a role in attachment. This is also a topic of dissension among my friends and I- it disappoints me to see that so many children go unadopted while others are off having children of their own, while there are impoverished children alone in the world. Just as you come to love someone who is not of your own blood (most spouses aren't related in any way), why can you not come to love another child, who is not borne by you? A child whose heart is pure and his soul innocent; a child who has done no wrong and does not deserve to be in the position he is in currently.0 -
for be is the opposite, i have raised my standards0
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My standards have always been high. Hasn't changed much as I've gotten older. Well, my moral standards. He could look like quasi-modo at this point, I think. :laugh:0
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My standards have always been high. Hasn't changed much as I've gotten older. Well, my moral standards. He could look like quasi-modo at this point, I think. :laugh:
LOL funny come on now quasi-modo0 -
I feel that I have raised my standards over the years.. Any man I dated was better for me than the one before. Still I continued to settle for things that were quite critical for me (out of sheer despair, really) until I met my SO who is so perfectly suitable to me in just any possible way, he keeps trying to make me believe miracles exist.0
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I expect *more* now that I'm older because my self-esteem is better and I know exactly what kind of people I want in my life. Because conventional relationships are not my thing, I feel no pressure to "settle." I have relationships for fun and companionship. I derive my stability and security from the way I manage my own life.0
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Lots of responses! (Some angry too...)
Alright, I'm NOT interested in a relationship/dating or ANYTHING right now, for literally at least another decade. So that's that. I know I don't have ANY life experience, of course I wouldn't! I'm just curious to know what y'all think and so I asked this question.
I guess it all comes down to the fact that it depends on the couple themselves, and that they learn how to handle the dynamic of their respective families and the way it plays into their relationship. And I still strongly believe there's a power rule in a couple, and I don't buy into the 'We love each other and we're equal' view. Sorry.
As for me being narcissistic, or cynical, I'm just talking from what I've seen, which is very limited, since I'm not that old at all. Experiences will change me, sure, but I'm definitely willing to stand by my opinion that love has a motive.
i think that the term "settling" is a misnomer. what actually happens as you get older is that the characteristics you value in another person change. when i was 18, it honestly didn't matter too much whether i could hold an interesting 3 hour conversation with a woman. now it does. there are all sorts of traits that you look for when you are 18 that end up not being as important when you're 30 or 40 or 50 years old, and vice versa.
so you don't "settle", you simply get wiser about the things that truly need to be there in order to find long term compatibility with somebody else.
In the eyes of someone else, you may be settling. But in your eyes, you're content with what you've got. It's a matter of perspective, I guess.
Because at 18, you know more than someone that is 50?
Has the 18 year-old been dating the same person since they were 14 & they're still very serious with family heavily involved in the relationship while preparing to start a future & family together,
While the 50 year-old has been in a few short-lived relationships that never went anywhere & has now stopped dating & only works & lives with five cats,
Then yes. That 18 year-old knows more than the 50 year-old.
I get quite irritated by the age aspect of this being the fact that I'm 22 years old & have been a wife for 3 years, to a man that's 11 years older than me, & a loving mother for 16 months.
You never know a person's life or precociousness, or how fast they had to grow up. As for me, my younger sister was born when I was 9 years-old, & due to the lives, problems, & work schedules of my parents, I was essentially her mother.
It wasn't until she was 4 & I 13 before she stopped calling me mommy.
Those things & the fact that on my 21st birthday I had to find a babysitter for my 16 week-old baby before I could go out for TWO hours & THREE drinks with my husband of two years suggests to me that I am, indeed, far beyond some 30-40 year-olds in the love, marriage, & maturity department.
You shouldn't be so quick to shrug off & disregard the opinions & claimed knowledge of a young person.0 -
OP, one thing is for certain. People marry for many different reasons. Some marry because they are tired of being alone. Some married because they are afraid to be alone. Some marry for money. Some marry to escape their home situation. Some marry as a business transaction. Some marry because of social pressures. Some marry a "trophy wife". Some marry a "rich" husband. And yes, some like BinaryPulsar actually marry for love, no other reason. Some actually do "settle". But have hope, there are actually those like BP that marry purely for love. I am also one of those lucky ones. Every day I count my blessings and cannot believe I am lucky enough to have him in my life. Every day he counts his blessings and cannot believe he is lucky enough to have me in his life. We married when we were 30 and have been married now for 27 years. We did not need to marry. We both owned our own property and were quite happy with our lives. But our lives have been enriched because of each other. I hope someday you find that.
Thank you! That is a really nice summation of the different reasons people enter a marital union. Congratulations on celebrating 27 years of a wonderful married life! :flowerforyou:
You are quite welcome. I always tell my wonderful children to work on being the right person, not finding the right person. I am confident if you wait and marry for love and no other "motives" you will have a long happy marriage as well. As others have said, it is give and take. There will be times you will be carrying a heavier load and times your spouse will carry a heavier load. My husband supports me and encourages me in all my passions and interests, and I do the same for him. Sometimes his needs come first, sometimes my needs come first. Your young, work on becoming the best you can become. Another bit of advice I always give to younger people is marry someone who feels really lucky to be with you, not someone that feels you are lucky to be with them. If you can find that, they will treasure you. Good luck!0 -
Lots of responses! (Some angry too...)
Alright, I'm NOT interested in a relationship/dating or ANYTHING right now, for literally at least another decade. So that's that. I know I don't have ANY life experience, of course I wouldn't! I'm just curious to know what y'all think and so I asked this question.
I guess it all comes down to the fact that it depends on the couple themselves, and that they learn how to handle the dynamic of their respective families and the way it plays into their relationship. And I still strongly believe there's a power rule in a couple, and I don't buy into the 'We love each other and we're equal' view. Sorry.
As for me being narcissistic, or cynical, I'm just talking from what I've seen, which is very limited, since I'm not that old at all. Experiences will change me, sure, but I'm definitely willing to stand by my opinion that love has a motive.
i think that the term "settling" is a misnomer. what actually happens as you get older is that the characteristics you value in another person change. when i was 18, it honestly didn't matter too much whether i could hold an interesting 3 hour conversation with a woman. now it does. there are all sorts of traits that you look for when you are 18 that end up not being as important when you're 30 or 40 or 50 years old, and vice versa.
so you don't "settle", you simply get wiser about the things that truly need to be there in order to find long term compatibility with somebody else.
In the eyes of someone else, you may be settling. But in your eyes, you're content with what you've got. It's a matter of perspective, I guess.
Because at 18, you know more than someone that is 50?
Has the 18 year-old been dating the same person since they were 14 & they're still very serious with family heavily involved in the relationship while preparing to start a future & family together,
While the 50 year-old has been in a few short-lived relationships that never went anywhere & has now stopped dating & only works & lives with five cats,
Then yes. That 18 year-old knows more than the 50 year-old.
I get quite irritated by the age aspect of this being the fact that I'm 22 years old & have been a wife for 3 years, to a man that's 11 years older than me, & a loving mother for 16 months.
You never know a person's life or precociousness, or how fast they had to grow up. As for me, my younger sister was born when I was 9 years-old, & due to the lives, problems, & work schedules of my parents, I was essentially her mother.
It wasn't until she was 4 & I 13 before she stopped calling me mommy.
Those things & the fact that on my 21st birthday I had to find a babysitter for my 16 week-old baby before I could go out for TWO hours & THREE drinks with my husband of two years suggests to me that I am, indeed, far beyond some 30-40 year-olds in the love, marriage, & maturity department.
You shouldn't be so quick to shrug off & disregard the opinions & claimed knowledge of a young person.
This 18 year old has never been in any relationship, and hasn't had any suitors lined up either! So I definitely have less (no) experience, and I admit it too. But I like to be an observer, watching from the sidelines. And I was just stating what I've noticed, and wanted to see what others thought about this topic. Everyone else on here has so much experience, and by sharing them with me, they have enabled me. Enabled me to make more informed opinions and decisions, and reflect upon what is of utmost importance to me. And allow me to say, kudos to you ma'am- You have been able to undertake the responsibility of a family at a relatively younger age, which not many very people can do successfully. I wish you a very happy married life. :flowerforyou:0 -
OP, one thing is for certain. People marry for many different reasons. Some marry because they are tired of being alone. Some married because they are afraid to be alone. Some marry for money. Some marry to escape their home situation. Some marry as a business transaction. Some marry because of social pressures. Some marry a "trophy wife". Some marry a "rich" husband. And yes, some like BinaryPulsar actually marry for love, no other reason. Some actually do "settle". But have hope, there are actually those like BP that marry purely for love. I am also one of those lucky ones. Every day I count my blessings and cannot believe I am lucky enough to have him in my life. Every day he counts his blessings and cannot believe he is lucky enough to have me in his life. We married when we were 30 and have been married now for 27 years. We did not need to marry. We both owned our own property and were quite happy with our lives. But our lives have been enriched because of each other. I hope someday you find that.
Thank you! That is a really nice summation of the different reasons people enter a marital union. Congratulations on celebrating 27 years of a wonderful married life! :flowerforyou:
You are quite welcome. I always tell my wonderful children to work on being the right person, not finding the right person. I am confident if you wait and marry for love and no other "motives" you will have a long happy marriage as well. As others have said, it is give and take. There will be times you will be carrying a heavier load and times your spouse will carry a heavier load. My husband supports me and encourages me in all my passions and interests, and I do the same for him. Sometimes his needs come first, sometimes my needs come first. Your young, work on becoming the best you can become. Another bit of advice I always give to younger people is marry someone who feels really lucky to be with you, not someone that feels you are lucky to be with them. If you can find that, they will treasure you. Good luck!
Thank you! I certainly want to work on being the best me I can be, for myself.0 -
Om, No.
Infact I think the reason Im still single is cuz I refuse to settle, and men are such a let down
lol. That is comic gold, right thar.
Was thinking the same. The Taylor Swift syndrome, go through soo many guys and state how bad they are. Never once stopping to look at the mirror.
The Taylor Swift Syndrome. Wonder if that's been UD'ed. If not, you should submit an entry for that.
Haha, I know, I should!
I felt bad for her at first and thought the music told a real struggle. But fast forward 10 guys later, I lost all sympathy because she finds herself in the same situation and doesn't learn from it.0 -
Lots of responses! (Some angry too...)
Alright, I'm NOT interested in a relationship/dating or ANYTHING right now, for literally at least another decade. So that's that. I know I don't have ANY life experience, of course I wouldn't! I'm just curious to know what y'all think and so I asked this question.
I guess it all comes down to the fact that it depends on the couple themselves, and that they learn how to handle the dynamic of their respective families and the way it plays into their relationship. And I still strongly believe there's a power rule in a couple, and I don't buy into the 'We love each other and we're equal' view. Sorry.
As for me being narcissistic, or cynical, I'm just talking from what I've seen, which is very limited, since I'm not that old at all. Experiences will change me, sure, but I'm definitely willing to stand by my opinion that love has a motive.
i think that the term "settling" is a misnomer. what actually happens as you get older is that the characteristics you value in another person change. when i was 18, it honestly didn't matter too much whether i could hold an interesting 3 hour conversation with a woman. now it does. there are all sorts of traits that you look for when you are 18 that end up not being as important when you're 30 or 40 or 50 years old, and vice versa.
so you don't "settle", you simply get wiser about the things that truly need to be there in order to find long term compatibility with somebody else.
In the eyes of someone else, you may be settling. But in your eyes, you're content with what you've got. It's a matter of perspective, I guess.
Because at 18, you know more than someone that is 50?
Has the 18 year-old been dating the same person since they were 14 & they're still very serious with family heavily involved in the relationship while preparing to start a future & family together,
While the 50 year-old has been in a few short-lived relationships that never went anywhere & has now stopped dating & only works & lives with five cats,
Then yes. That 18 year-old knows more than the 50 year-old.
I get quite irritated by the age aspect of this being the fact that I'm 22 years old & have been a wife for 3 years, to a man that's 11 years older than me, & a loving mother for 16 months.
You never know a person's life or precociousness, or how fast they had to grow up. As for me, my younger sister was born when I was 9 years-old, & due to the lives, problems, & work schedules of my parents, I was essentially her mother.
It wasn't until she was 4 & I 13 before she stopped calling me mommy.
Those things & the fact that on my 21st birthday I had to find a babysitter for my 16 week-old baby before I could go out for TWO hours & THREE drinks with my husband of two years suggests to me that I am, indeed, far beyond some 30-40 year-olds in the love, marriage, & maturity department.
You shouldn't be so quick to shrug off & disregard the opinions & claimed knowledge of a young person.
This was not directed at you or at all 18 year olds. It was a reply to the two comments I had read.
I already posted a reply that I had misunderstood what the OP was saying and I apologized for that. It was a misunderstanding.
I already replied to you directly and said that you have experience and mature understanding. I also met my husband when I was 18 and got married when I was 22.
And I posted another reply saying in very clear terms that I do not think age is the only factor. Based on my own experiences of having to grow up and take care of myself fast.
So, I was not talking to you, I was not talking about all 18 year olds, I do not think that about all young people (not even about my younger self), and I already apologized because I had even misunderstood the OP.
I remember what it was like to be young and to be mature. I also hope that all people will have gone through growth between the age of 18 and 50, though. I'm not even 50. I'm 35. I hope that I will have gone through more growth when I am 500 -
OP, one thing is for certain. People marry for many different reasons. Some marry because they are tired of being alone. Some married because they are afraid to be alone. Some marry for money. Some marry to escape their home situation. Some marry as a business transaction. Some marry because of social pressures. Some marry a "trophy wife". Some marry a "rich" husband. And yes, some like BinaryPulsar actually marry for love, no other reason. Some actually do "settle". But have hope, there are actually those like BP that marry purely for love. I am also one of those lucky ones. Every day I count my blessings and cannot believe I am lucky enough to have him in my life. Every day he counts his blessings and cannot believe he is lucky enough to have me in his life. We married when we were 30 and have been married now for 27 years. We did not need to marry. We both owned our own property and were quite happy with our lives. But our lives have been enriched because of each other. I hope someday you find that.
Thank you! That is a really nice summation of the different reasons people enter a marital union. Congratulations on celebrating 27 years of a wonderful married life! :flowerforyou:
You are quite welcome. I always tell my wonderful children to work on being the right person, not finding the right person. I am confident if you wait and marry for love and no other "motives" you will have a long happy marriage as well. As others have said, it is give and take. There will be times you will be carrying a heavier load and times your spouse will carry a heavier load. My husband supports me and encourages me in all my passions and interests, and I do the same for him. Sometimes his needs come first, sometimes my needs come first. Your young, work on becoming the best you can become. Another bit of advice I always give to younger people is marry someone who feels really lucky to be with you, not someone that feels you are lucky to be with them. If you can find that, they will treasure you. Good luck!
Yes, I agree with all of this! This is wonderful!0 -
For example, having a child is the most selfish thing a person can do, really. There's no more direct expression of the desire to extend the self, by genes, and legacy.
While that may be the evolutionary driving force behind why certain traits flourished in people, the trait that usually causes someone to have children (other than a surprise) is the desire to nurture. The desire is so strong that we will raise and love children that are not even children we gave birth to (through adoption). The desire to nurture and raise children is what produces healthy, successful children. So, that is the trait that was naturally selected for.
The desire to nurture is the more proximate and salient mechanism, sure. But, it is about self-extension, too, I think even consciously, today. Consider how many people are willing to spend buckets of money and endure all kinds of pain for IVF treatment, and how many children (as young as 1 year old) go unadopted. Consider the pleasure of identifying one's own physical traits in the child (or, those of grandparents, etc). I haven't looked into it, but would be willing to bet that resemblance plays a role in attachment, too.
I wholeheartedly agree that resemblance probably plays a role in attachment. This is also a topic of dissension among my friends and I- it disappoints me to see that so many children go unadopted while others are off having children of their own, while there are impoverished children alone in the world. Just as you come to love someone who is not of your own blood (most spouses aren't related in any way), why can you not come to love another child, who is not borne by you? A child whose heart is pure and his soul innocent; a child who has done no wrong and does not deserve to be in the position he is in currently.
During the course of evolution people (and other primates) do not adopt from afar. They adopt when they love and bond with a child and the mother. And then the mother dies or is killed. They will take over raising the child.
And as for wondering why more people don't adopt. Go ahead and contact an adoption agency and tell them you want to adopt. It's not as easy as you think it is. They will thoroughly convince you not to do it unless you are fully prepared to handle all of the challenges that can go along with adoption. It would be selfish to adopt a child without being prepared for that and capable to be the right parent for a child that has had an abusive past or an attachment disorder (if you are not adopting a newborn which is very hard to do). And they will put you through extensive and invasive background checks, all the way back through your teenage years.
It is a simplistic view to think that lack of adoptive parents is the only issue that causes the problems we have with unwanted and abused children in this world. (I was abused also)
I'm saying that evolutionary drive is a biological drive that a person has to experience pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding and motherhood, it's not a conscious choice to have children in order to pass on genes and legacy.0 -
OP, one thing is for certain. People marry for many different reasons. Some marry because they are tired of being alone. Some married because they are afraid to be alone. Some marry for money. Some marry to escape their home situation. Some marry as a business transaction. Some marry because of social pressures. Some marry a "trophy wife". Some marry a "rich" husband. And yes, some like BinaryPulsar actually marry for love, no other reason. Some actually do "settle". But have hope, there are actually those like BP that marry purely for love. I am also one of those lucky ones. Every day I count my blessings and cannot believe I am lucky enough to have him in my life. Every day he counts his blessings and cannot believe he is lucky enough to have me in his life. We married when we were 30 and have been married now for 27 years. We did not need to marry. We both owned our own property and were quite happy with our lives. But our lives have been enriched because of each other. I hope someday you find that.
Thank you! That is a really nice summation of the different reasons people enter a marital union. Congratulations on celebrating 27 years of a wonderful married life! :flowerforyou:
You are quite welcome. I always tell my wonderful children to work on being the right person, not finding the right person. I am confident if you wait and marry for love and no other "motives" you will have a long happy marriage as well. As others have said, it is give and take. There will be times you will be carrying a heavier load and times your spouse will carry a heavier load. My husband supports me and encourages me in all my passions and interests, and I do the same for him. Sometimes his needs come first, sometimes my needs come first. Your young, work on becoming the best you can become. Another bit of advice I always give to younger people is marry someone who feels really lucky to be with you, not someone that feels you are lucky to be with them. If you can find that, they will treasure you. Good luck!
Yes, I agree with all of this! This is wonderful!
Thank you! And I am confident you will be amazed at how much you grow as a person between now and when you are 50. I am currently 57. And who I am now is so different than who I was at 35. I've grown so much. And I have to say much of that growth is because of the wonderful man I married. He's believed in me when I did not believe in myself. He's always encouraged and loved unconditionally. I do not deserve him, but thank God he chose me.0 -
For example, having a child is the most selfish thing a person can do, really. There's no more direct expression of the desire to extend the self, by genes, and legacy.
While that may be the evolutionary driving force behind why certain traits flourished in people, the trait that usually causes someone to have children (other than a surprise) is the desire to nurture. The desire is so strong that we will raise and love children that are not even children we gave birth to (through adoption). The desire to nurture and raise children is what produces healthy, successful children. So, that is the trait that was naturally selected for.
The desire to nurture is the more proximate and salient mechanism, sure. But, it is about self-extension, too, I think even consciously, today. Consider how many people are willing to spend buckets of money and endure all kinds of pain for IVF treatment, and how many children (as young as 1 year old) go unadopted. Consider the pleasure of identifying one's own physical traits in the child (or, those of grandparents, etc). I haven't looked into it, but would be willing to bet that resemblance plays a role in attachment, too.
I wholeheartedly agree that resemblance probably plays a role in attachment. This is also a topic of dissension among my friends and I- it disappoints me to see that so many children go unadopted while others are off having children of their own, while there are impoverished children alone in the world. Just as you come to love someone who is not of your own blood (most spouses aren't related in any way), why can you not come to love another child, who is not borne by you? A child whose heart is pure and his soul innocent; a child who has done no wrong and does not deserve to be in the position he is in currently.
During the course of evolution people (and other primates) do not adopt from afar. They adopt when they love and bond with a child and the mother. And then the mother dies or is killed. They will take over raising the child.
And as for wondering why more people don't adopt. Go ahead and contact an adoption agency and tell them you want to adopt. It's not as easy as you think it is. They will thoroughly convince you not to do it unless you are fully prepared to handle all of the challenges that can go along with adoption. It would be selfish to adopt a child without being prepared for that and capable to be the right parent for a child that has had an abusive past or an attachment disorder (if you are not adopting a newborn which is very hard to do). And they will put you through extensive and invasive background checks, all the way back through your teenage years.
It is a simplistic view to think that lack of adoptive parents is the only issue that causes the problems we have with unwanted and abused children in this world. (I was abused also)
I'm saying that evolutionary drive is a biological drive that a person has to experience pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding and motherhood, it's not a conscious choice to have children in order to pass on genes and legacy.
I understand that the adoption process is very rigorous, but I feel that if you really want something badly, you should be a go-getter. Sometimes it is not meant to be, which is why it does not happen. But other times, if you test your limits, you'll usually succeed. And as a matter of fact, I asked my mother why she bore me when she could adopt, and she admitted that she had not discussed this option with my father though she was very much interested in it, for she thought he wouldn't take to it. We've never asked him this question, and I'd be very curious to know the answer.
I agree that the evolutionary drive is an unconscious choice but the choice of the act of unprotected sex and resultingly, pregnancy is very much a conscious choice, I think. (No offense)0 -
My standards have always been high. Hasn't changed much as I've gotten older. Well, my moral standards. He could look like quasi-modo at this point, I think. :laugh:
Well, hi! :flowerforyou:
0 -
For example, having a child is the most selfish thing a person can do, really. There's no more direct expression of the desire to extend the self, by genes, and legacy.
While that may be the evolutionary driving force behind why certain traits flourished in people, the trait that usually causes someone to have children (other than a surprise) is the desire to nurture. The desire is so strong that we will raise and love children that are not even children we gave birth to (through adoption). The desire to nurture and raise children is what produces healthy, successful children. So, that is the trait that was naturally selected for.
The desire to nurture is the more proximate and salient mechanism, sure. But, it is about self-extension, too, I think even consciously, today. Consider how many people are willing to spend buckets of money and endure all kinds of pain for IVF treatment, and how many children (as young as 1 year old) go unadopted. Consider the pleasure of identifying one's own physical traits in the child (or, those of grandparents, etc). I haven't looked into it, but would be willing to bet that resemblance plays a role in attachment, too.
I wholeheartedly agree that resemblance probably plays a role in attachment. This is also a topic of dissension among my friends and I- it disappoints me to see that so many children go unadopted while others are off having children of their own, while there are impoverished children alone in the world. Just as you come to love someone who is not of your own blood (most spouses aren't related in any way), why can you not come to love another child, who is not borne by you? A child whose heart is pure and his soul innocent; a child who has done no wrong and does not deserve to be in the position he is in currently.
During the course of evolution people (and other primates) do not adopt from afar. They adopt when they love and bond with a child and the mother. And then the mother dies or is killed. They will take over raising the child.
And as for wondering why more people don't adopt. Go ahead and contact an adoption agency and tell them you want to adopt. It's not as easy as you think it is. They will thoroughly convince you not to do it unless you are fully prepared to handle all of the challenges that can go along with adoption. It would be selfish to adopt a child without being prepared for that and capable to be the right parent for a child that has had an abusive past or an attachment disorder (if you are not adopting a newborn which is very hard to do). And they will put you through extensive and invasive background checks, all the way back through your teenage years.
It is a simplistic view to think that lack of adoptive parents is the only issue that causes the problems we have with unwanted and abused children in this world. (I was abused also)
I'm saying that evolutionary drive is a biological drive that a person has to experience pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding and motherhood, it's not a conscious choice to have children in order to pass on genes and legacy.
I understand that the adoption process is very rigorous, but I feel that if you really want something badly, you should be a go-getter. Sometimes it is not meant to be, which is why it does not happen. But other times, if you test your limits, you'll usually succeed. And as a matter of fact, I asked my mother why she bore me when she could adopt, and she admitted that she had not discussed this option with my father though she was very much interested in it, for she thought he wouldn't take to it. We've never asked him this question, and I'd be very curious to know the answer.
I agree that the evolutionary drive is an unconscious choice but the choice of the act of unprotected sex and resultingly, pregnancy is very much a conscious choice, I think. (No offense)
No offense to me.
But, I know life is complicated and I'm not about to judge people that have unexpected pregnancies (sometimes even the result of rape...see an example of how complicated life can get), or who struggle with infertility. I can understand having issues with one specific person that may have caused hurt or harm to someone personally. But, people, life, growing up...all of that is messy business.
I just know that there are a lot of terrible, horrible, horrendous things that people do in this world and I know that having children is not "the most selfish thing a person can do" (as was stated), unless they abuse or abandon the children.0 -
For example, having a child is the most selfish thing a person can do, really. There's no more direct expression of the desire to extend the self, by genes, and legacy.
While that may be the evolutionary driving force behind why certain traits flourished in people, the trait that usually causes someone to have children (other than a surprise) is the desire to nurture. The desire is so strong that we will raise and love children that are not even children we gave birth to (through adoption). The desire to nurture and raise children is what produces healthy, successful children. So, that is the trait that was naturally selected for.
The desire to nurture is the more proximate and salient mechanism, sure. But, it is about self-extension, too, I think even consciously, today. Consider how many people are willing to spend buckets of money and endure all kinds of pain for IVF treatment, and how many children (as young as 1 year old) go unadopted. Consider the pleasure of identifying one's own physical traits in the child (or, those of grandparents, etc). I haven't looked into it, but would be willing to bet that resemblance plays a role in attachment, too.
I wholeheartedly agree that resemblance probably plays a role in attachment. This is also a topic of dissension among my friends and I- it disappoints me to see that so many children go unadopted while others are off having children of their own, while there are impoverished children alone in the world. Just as you come to love someone who is not of your own blood (most spouses aren't related in any way), why can you not come to love another child, who is not borne by you? A child whose heart is pure and his soul innocent; a child who has done no wrong and does not deserve to be in the position he is in currently.
During the course of evolution people (and other primates) do not adopt from afar. They adopt when they love and bond with a child and the mother. And then the mother dies or is killed. They will take over raising the child.
And as for wondering why more people don't adopt. Go ahead and contact an adoption agency and tell them you want to adopt. It's not as easy as you think it is. They will thoroughly convince you not to do it unless you are fully prepared to handle all of the challenges that can go along with adoption. It would be selfish to adopt a child without being prepared for that and capable to be the right parent for a child that has had an abusive past or an attachment disorder (if you are not adopting a newborn which is very hard to do). And they will put you through extensive and invasive background checks, all the way back through your teenage years.
It is a simplistic view to think that lack of adoptive parents is the only issue that causes the problems we have with unwanted and abused children in this world. (I was abused also)
I'm saying that evolutionary drive is a biological drive that a person has to experience pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding and motherhood, it's not a conscious choice to have children in order to pass on genes and legacy.
I understand that the adoption process is very rigorous, but I feel that if you really want something badly, you should be a go-getter. Sometimes it is not meant to be, which is why it does not happen. But other times, if you test your limits, you'll usually succeed. And as a matter of fact, I asked my mother why she bore me when she could adopt, and she admitted that she had not discussed this option with my father though she was very much interested in it, for she thought he wouldn't take to it. We've never asked him this question, and I'd be very curious to know the answer.
I agree that the evolutionary drive is an unconscious choice but the choice of the act of unprotected sex and resultingly, pregnancy is very much a conscious choice, I think. (No offense)
No offense to me.
But, I know life is complicated and I'm not about to judge people that have unexpected pregnancies (sometimes even the result of rape...see an example of how complicated life can get), or who struggle with infertility. I can understand having issues with one specific person that may have caused hurt or harm to someone personally. But, people, life, growing up...all of that is messy business.
I just know that there are a lot of terrible, horrible, horrendous things that people do in this world and I know that having children is not "the most selfish thing a person can do" (as was stated), unless they abuse or abandon the children.
Life is indeed a complicated situation. And a severely extended one, at that.
I don't think that having children is selfish at all, but I do think that it would be a nice thing to do, if one could adopt. But to each his own. And as long as the child is being taken care of properly as you said, I guess it works out okay for the family.0 -
For example, having a child is the most selfish thing a person can do, really. There's no more direct expression of the desire to extend the self, by genes, and legacy.
While that may be the evolutionary driving force behind why certain traits flourished in people, the trait that usually causes someone to have children (other than a surprise) is the desire to nurture. The desire is so strong that we will raise and love children that are not even children we gave birth to (through adoption). The desire to nurture and raise children is what produces healthy, successful children. So, that is the trait that was naturally selected for.
The desire to nurture is the more proximate and salient mechanism, sure. But, it is about self-extension, too, I think even consciously, today. Consider how many people are willing to spend buckets of money and endure all kinds of pain for IVF treatment, and how many children (as young as 1 year old) go unadopted. Consider the pleasure of identifying one's own physical traits in the child (or, those of grandparents, etc). I haven't looked into it, but would be willing to bet that resemblance plays a role in attachment, too.
I wholeheartedly agree that resemblance probably plays a role in attachment. This is also a topic of dissension among my friends and I- it disappoints me to see that so many children go unadopted while others are off having children of their own, while there are impoverished children alone in the world. Just as you come to love someone who is not of your own blood (most spouses aren't related in any way), why can you not come to love another child, who is not borne by you? A child whose heart is pure and his soul innocent; a child who has done no wrong and does not deserve to be in the position he is in currently.
During the course of evolution people (and other primates) do not adopt from afar. They adopt when they love and bond with a child and the mother. And then the mother dies or is killed. They will take over raising the child.
And as for wondering why more people don't adopt. Go ahead and contact an adoption agency and tell them you want to adopt. It's not as easy as you think it is. They will thoroughly convince you not to do it unless you are fully prepared to handle all of the challenges that can go along with adoption. It would be selfish to adopt a child without being prepared for that and capable to be the right parent for a child that has had an abusive past or an attachment disorder (if you are not adopting a newborn which is very hard to do). And they will put you through extensive and invasive background checks, all the way back through your teenage years.
It is a simplistic view to think that lack of adoptive parents is the only issue that causes the problems we have with unwanted and abused children in this world. (I was abused also)
I'm saying that evolutionary drive is a biological drive that a person has to experience pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding and motherhood, it's not a conscious choice to have children in order to pass on genes and legacy.
I understand that the adoption process is very rigorous, but I feel that if you really want something badly, you should be a go-getter. Sometimes it is not meant to be, which is why it does not happen. But other times, if you test your limits, you'll usually succeed. And as a matter of fact, I asked my mother why she bore me when she could adopt, and she admitted that she had not discussed this option with my father though she was very much interested in it, for she thought he wouldn't take to it. We've never asked him this question, and I'd be very curious to know the answer.
I agree that the evolutionary drive is an unconscious choice but the choice of the act of unprotected sex and resultingly, pregnancy is very much a conscious choice, I think. (No offense)
No offense to me.
But, I know life is complicated and I'm not about to judge people that have unexpected pregnancies (sometimes even the result of rape...see an example of how complicated life can get), or who struggle with infertility. I can understand having issues with one specific person that may have caused hurt or harm to someone personally. But, people, life, growing up...all of that is messy business.
I just know that there are a lot of terrible, horrible, horrendous things that people do in this world and I know that having children is not "the most selfish thing a person can do" (as was stated), unless they abuse or abandon the children.
It is arguably selfish to bring into the world another creature that will definitely take up a good part of the earth's resources (especially if the parent lives in a 'first world' country), when that child, over its lifetime, only *might* make up for its consumption needs with its own output. A less selfish action would be either to adopt a child or contribute part of one's earnings toward the support of an already-born child.
Look, I'm not saying children aren't amazing, or negatively judging people for wanting to have them. But the motivation isn't strictly altruistic, not by a long shot.
i.e., I am fine with 'selfishness', it's just part of the human condition.0 -
i.e., I am fine with 'selfishness', it's just part of the human condition.
You know, I completely understand where you're coming from with that opinion, and I agree with you fully (but I didn't know how my strong opinion would be received by the rest of the MFP community). But the part of your statement that struck me most was the one I clipped above. It's only natural for humans to be that way. It's rare to find couples who want to adopt. And even still, to find those who don't adopt yet sponsor children in developing nations.0
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