The deal on sugar
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »If ketosis was healthier in any significant amount, humanity would have mostly lived on a ketogenic diet throughout evolution, because that's how evolution works. Stuff that's beneficial stays, while stuff that's not as beneficial slowly dies out. The fact that your brain will immediately drop the ketones as soon as glucose is back on the table shows it just does not want to use them that much. Which makes sense because that's extra work and evolution, as @senecarr pointed out, strives to conserve as much energy as possible.
Humanity really is weird sometimes, trying to convince others that a process that wastes energy and is only done by your body when the preferred power sources aren't available is somehow "superior".
I didn't intend to participate anymore but I have to ask you
Did someone say that ketosis was healthier than some other thing? I didn't. Who said it was healthier and what did they say exactly?
Who is trying to convince anyone that ketosis is superior? What statement was made that claims superiority over any other thing?
Your entire response is in defense to a fictional argument where you think someone has said that ketosis is healthier and superior to the "preferred" way. I don't see the opposing side of the debate you are carrying out here. If there is someone saying those things, I have missed it.
Well that would be why you don't call using ketones optimal, claim they're a less lazy fuel, imply the brain doesn't have good, healthy reasons to use glucose as fuel, or that the properties of ketosis lead it to supposedly cure Alzheimer's, epilepsy, and so on.
You're mixing us low carbers up. I know, I know. We all look and sound the same.
I'm the one who brought up Alzheimer's. I never said cure. I said ketones can be used as a treatment for Alzheimer's. It can benefit some people suffering with that. You've exaggerated the health claims of ketosis in order to win an argument (JMO).0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »If ketosis was healthier in any significant amount, humanity would have mostly lived on a ketogenic diet throughout evolution, because that's how evolution works. Stuff that's beneficial stays, while stuff that's not as beneficial slowly dies out. The fact that your brain will immediately drop the ketones as soon as glucose is back on the table shows it just does not want to use them that much. Which makes sense because that's extra work and evolution, as @senecarr pointed out, strives to conserve as much energy as possible.
Humanity really is weird sometimes, trying to convince others that a process that wastes energy and is only done by your body when the preferred power sources aren't available is somehow "superior".
I didn't intend to participate anymore but I have to ask you
Did someone say that ketosis was healthier than some other thing? I didn't. Who said it was healthier and what did they say exactly?
Who is trying to convince anyone that ketosis is superior? What statement was made that claims superiority over any other thing?
Your entire response is in defense to a fictional argument where you think someone has said that ketosis is healthier and superior to the "preferred" way. I don't see the opposing side of the debate you are carrying out here. If there is someone saying those things, I have missed it.
Well that would be why you don't call using ketones optimal, claim they're a less lazy fuel, imply the brain doesn't have good, healthy reasons to use glucose as fuel, or that the properties of ketosis lead it to supposedly cure Alzheimer's, epilepsy, and so on.
I did some digging on the Alzheimer's research. Apparently one of the side effects of Alzheimer's is impaired glucose metabolism by the brain. The only reasons ketones are suggested is because they're an alternate source of fuel since the disease has affected the brain's ability to process the primary source of fuel... that's if I'm reading this correctly.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25832906
That's certainly a different spin than what I've been reading around these parts.PeachyCarol wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »You mean, you mean, ketones won't cure Alzheimer's?
http://www.senseaboutscience.org/data/files/resources/136/Ive-got-nothing-to-lose_web.pdf
Did someone say they would?
Just about. It's coy to pretend otherwise. They certainly are not a miracle intervention.
Oh please. I brought up ketones as a treatment (not THE treatment) in Alzheimers and a few people, who seem to disprove of nutritional ketosis, blew it out of proportion.
It's like being back in grade school where Suzie says Johnny was nice and the other kids start chanting "Suzie loves Johnny. Suzie wants to marry Johnny!" LOL0 -
brittanynicholexx wrote: »Looking into ketones as a treatment for Alzheimer's might be interesting for you, as a nursing student.
are these actually good for alzheimer's? came to comment on original post but saw this and got sidetracked. My grandpop has alzheimer's and dementia and we're always looking for something that might help him hang around with us a little longer.
Try the book Alzheimer's Disease: What if There Was a Cure? By Mary Newport MD. Ketones or MCTs are used in clinical trials, which consistent success to treat Alzheimer's. I read it after going LCHF and being startled by the obvious improvement in my cognitive abilities.
I stayed out of this thread until now, but I can't keep quiet on this one. That book is anecdotal, non evidenced based and completely subjective. The author is a neonatologist who gave her husband coconut oil and claimed she saw improvement. I see improvement from time to time in Alzheimer's patients as well - who sundown the night before and look fabulous the next morning. There are no scientific based studies that back any of these claims up and it's false hope to claim someone can improve when there is absolutely no evidence to show any decrease in brain atrophy. Alzheimer's is a terrifying disease and it scares me that people give out advice like this without having evidence behind it because it's just not true and giving false hope with words like "cure" is ridiculous and cruel. What helps is cognitive training, proven medications, and interaction with family and friends.
It sounds like the improvements her husband saw were fairly large and consistent. She had wanted him in clinical trials but he was too far gone to qualify. She gathered as many details as possible and mimicked the clinical trials as much as she could.
Yes, the book is anecdotal but there is probably something to it. Alzheimer's is thought by some to be a form of insulin resistance that affects the brain, sort of like PCOS and NAFLD are thought to also be types of IR. If the brain is experiencing IR, it makes sense to give the body a fuel where it can make ketones so the brain gets the energy it needs.
No it may not work for all, but since there is no harm in trying a ketogenic diet, or just adding MCTs or coconut oil to a diet in lieu of some carbs, why not give it a try?
While you're now posing that "curing" Alzheimers was never mentioned, I will bring up that you replied to a thread asking for help with a loved one with a book that uses the word "cure" in it's title and has no science yet to back it up. That makes me sad because she may run off and insist on a ketogenic diet for her grandfather with grandiose hopes that it will help him.
Your point in saying "there is not harm in trying a ketogenic diet" is naiive. I have patient families come into my facility constantly telling me about this new "treatment" or "cure" they read on the internet including diet modification. Don't you think that if there were evidence behind any of these things and that "it wouldn't hurt to try" that medical professionals wouldn't be trying it? I'm not saying the medical field is perfect, but why would patients be denied such a simple answer if it were effective?
You're also forgetting that it's not as simple as "just trying it." Diet modification for a person with Alzheimer's can mean the difference between eating 100% of a meal and eating nothing. The decline of Alzheimer's most always includes a loss of taste, dysphagia and texture/taste aversion. Completely changing their diet could result in malnutrition, aversion to food and ultimately the need for alternate methods of nutrition. It's not that simple.0 -
brittanynicholexx wrote: »Looking into ketones as a treatment for Alzheimer's might be interesting for you, as a nursing student.
are these actually good for alzheimer's? came to comment on original post but saw this and got sidetracked. My grandpop has alzheimer's and dementia and we're always looking for something that might help him hang around with us a little longer.
Try the book Alzheimer's Disease: What if There Was a Cure? By Mary Newport MD. Ketones or MCTs are used in clinical trials, which consistent success to treat Alzheimer's. I read it after going LCHF and being startled by the obvious improvement in my cognitive abilities.
I stayed out of this thread until now, but I can't keep quiet on this one. That book is anecdotal, non evidenced based and completely subjective. The author is a neonatologist who gave her husband coconut oil and claimed she saw improvement. I see improvement from time to time in Alzheimer's patients as well - who sundown the night before and look fabulous the next morning. There are no scientific based studies that back any of these claims up and it's false hope to claim someone can improve when there is absolutely no evidence to show any decrease in brain atrophy. Alzheimer's is a terrifying disease and it scares me that people give out advice like this without having evidence behind it because it's just not true and giving false hope with words like "cure" is ridiculous and cruel. What helps is cognitive training, proven medications, and interaction with family and friends.
It sounds like the improvements her husband saw were fairly large and consistent. She had wanted him in clinical trials but he was too far gone to qualify. She gathered as many details as possible and mimicked the clinical trials as much as she could.
Yes, the book is anecdotal but there is probably something to it. Alzheimer's is thought by some to be a form of insulin resistance that affects the brain, sort of like PCOS and NAFLD are thought to also be types of IR. If the brain is experiencing IR, it makes sense to give the body a fuel where it can make ketones so the brain gets the energy it needs.
No it may not work for all, but since there is no harm in trying a ketogenic diet, or just adding MCTs or coconut oil to a diet in lieu of some carbs, why not give it a try?
While you're now posing that "curing" Alzheimers was never mentioned, I will bring up that you replied to a thread asking for help with a loved one with a book that uses the word "cure" in it's title and has no science yet to back it up. That makes me sad because she may run off and insist on a ketogenic diet for her grandfather with grandiose hopes that it will help him.
Your point in saying "there is not harm in trying a ketogenic diet" is naiive. I have patient families come into my facility constantly telling me about this new "treatment" or "cure" they read on the internet including diet modification. Don't you think that if there were evidence behind any of these things and that "it wouldn't hurt to try" that medical professionals wouldn't be trying it? I'm not saying the medical field is perfect, but why would patients be denied such a simple answer if it were effective?
You're also forgetting that it's not as simple as "just trying it." Diet modification for a person with Alzheimer's can mean the difference between eating 100% of a meal and eating nothing. The decline of Alzheimer's most always includes a loss of taste, dysphagia and texture/taste aversion. Completely changing their diet could result in malnutrition, aversion to food and ultimately the need for alternate methods of nutrition. It's not that simple.
Not to mention that the rigor required to maintain a ketogenic diet is not something that someone in the early stages of Alzheimer's, when they may still be caring for themselves, can support. My mother had Alzheimer's and she wasn't able to remember to take her heart, kidney, and other medicines let alone maintain a heavily restrictive diet. Not to mention that as her cognition continued to decline, she tended to fall back on "safe" choices. When we would take her out to a restaurant, no matter what kind it was, when we asked what she wanted to eat she would say, "oh I don't know, a hamburger sounds pretty good"... Pretty soon we realized she couldn't actually read and comprehend the myriad choices on a menu so she had a standard answer so that no one suspected how confused she was.
When we moved her into a long term care facility even then a ketogenic diet would have been very unsustainable, my mother and her roommate (a holocaust survivor) took to hiding food in their room because they weren't sure when they would be eating again.
If there was something reasonable and effective that could have been done to slow or reverse my mother's slow, tortured decline; I would have jumped on it in a heartbeat, but a ketogenic diet was not something that her doctors or we felt was even worth pursuing...
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brittanynicholexx wrote: »Looking into ketones as a treatment for Alzheimer's might be interesting for you, as a nursing student.
are these actually good for alzheimer's? came to comment on original post but saw this and got sidetracked. My grandpop has alzheimer's and dementia and we're always looking for something that might help him hang around with us a little longer.
Try the book Alzheimer's Disease: What if There Was a Cure? By Mary Newport MD. Ketones or MCTs are used in clinical trials, which consistent success to treat Alzheimer's. I read it after going LCHF and being startled by the obvious improvement in my cognitive abilities.
I stayed out of this thread until now, but I can't keep quiet on this one. That book is anecdotal, non evidenced based and completely subjective. The author is a neonatologist who gave her husband coconut oil and claimed she saw improvement. I see improvement from time to time in Alzheimer's patients as well - who sundown the night before and look fabulous the next morning. There are no scientific based studies that back any of these claims up and it's false hope to claim someone can improve when there is absolutely no evidence to show any decrease in brain atrophy. Alzheimer's is a terrifying disease and it scares me that people give out advice like this without having evidence behind it because it's just not true and giving false hope with words like "cure" is ridiculous and cruel. What helps is cognitive training, proven medications, and interaction with family and friends.
It sounds like the improvements her husband saw were fairly large and consistent. She had wanted him in clinical trials but he was too far gone to qualify. She gathered as many details as possible and mimicked the clinical trials as much as she could.
Yes, the book is anecdotal but there is probably something to it. Alzheimer's is thought by some to be a form of insulin resistance that affects the brain, sort of like PCOS and NAFLD are thought to also be types of IR. If the brain is experiencing IR, it makes sense to give the body a fuel where it can make ketones so the brain gets the energy it needs.
No it may not work for all, but since there is no harm in trying a ketogenic diet, or just adding MCTs or coconut oil to a diet in lieu of some carbs, why not give it a try?
While you're now posing that "curing" Alzheimers was never mentioned, I will bring up that you replied to a thread asking for help with a loved one with a book that uses the word "cure" in it's title and has no science yet to back it up. That makes me sad because she may run off and insist on a ketogenic diet for her grandfather with grandiose hopes that it will help him.
Your point in saying "there is not harm in trying a ketogenic diet" is naiive. I have patient families come into my facility constantly telling me about this new "treatment" or "cure" they read on the internet including diet modification. Don't you think that if there were evidence behind any of these things and that "it wouldn't hurt to try" that medical professionals wouldn't be trying it? I'm not saying the medical field is perfect, but why would patients be denied such a simple answer if it were effective?
You're also forgetting that it's not as simple as "just trying it." Diet modification for a person with Alzheimer's can mean the difference between eating 100% of a meal and eating nothing. The decline of Alzheimer's most always includes a loss of taste, dysphagia and texture/taste aversion. Completely changing their diet could result in malnutrition, aversion to food and ultimately the need for alternate methods of nutrition. It's not that simple.
It's not always that hard either.
I didn't name the book. And the book isn't called Cure of Alzheimer's. It's called Alzheimer's: What if There is a cure? ... What if? It may not be a cure for all but it could be worth trying. Add cream to coffee, make a few PB or chocolate coconut oil fat bombs to have as snacks, try cooking a grilled cheese sandwich with coconut oil instead of butter. This isn't that extreme. It could be worth a try. All I'm saying.WinoGelato wrote: »brittanynicholexx wrote: »Looking into ketones as a treatment for Alzheimer's might be interesting for you, as a nursing student.
are these actually good for alzheimer's? came to comment on original post but saw this and got sidetracked. My grandpop has alzheimer's and dementia and we're always looking for something that might help him hang around with us a little longer.
Try the book Alzheimer's Disease: What if There Was a Cure? By Mary Newport MD. Ketones or MCTs are used in clinical trials, which consistent success to treat Alzheimer's. I read it after going LCHF and being startled by the obvious improvement in my cognitive abilities.
I stayed out of this thread until now, but I can't keep quiet on this one. That book is anecdotal, non evidenced based and completely subjective. The author is a neonatologist who gave her husband coconut oil and claimed she saw improvement. I see improvement from time to time in Alzheimer's patients as well - who sundown the night before and look fabulous the next morning. There are no scientific based studies that back any of these claims up and it's false hope to claim someone can improve when there is absolutely no evidence to show any decrease in brain atrophy. Alzheimer's is a terrifying disease and it scares me that people give out advice like this without having evidence behind it because it's just not true and giving false hope with words like "cure" is ridiculous and cruel. What helps is cognitive training, proven medications, and interaction with family and friends.
It sounds like the improvements her husband saw were fairly large and consistent. She had wanted him in clinical trials but he was too far gone to qualify. She gathered as many details as possible and mimicked the clinical trials as much as she could.
Yes, the book is anecdotal but there is probably something to it. Alzheimer's is thought by some to be a form of insulin resistance that affects the brain, sort of like PCOS and NAFLD are thought to also be types of IR. If the brain is experiencing IR, it makes sense to give the body a fuel where it can make ketones so the brain gets the energy it needs.
No it may not work for all, but since there is no harm in trying a ketogenic diet, or just adding MCTs or coconut oil to a diet in lieu of some carbs, why not give it a try?
While you're now posing that "curing" Alzheimers was never mentioned, I will bring up that you replied to a thread asking for help with a loved one with a book that uses the word "cure" in it's title and has no science yet to back it up. That makes me sad because she may run off and insist on a ketogenic diet for her grandfather with grandiose hopes that it will help him.
Your point in saying "there is not harm in trying a ketogenic diet" is naiive. I have patient families come into my facility constantly telling me about this new "treatment" or "cure" they read on the internet including diet modification. Don't you think that if there were evidence behind any of these things and that "it wouldn't hurt to try" that medical professionals wouldn't be trying it? I'm not saying the medical field is perfect, but why would patients be denied such a simple answer if it were effective?
You're also forgetting that it's not as simple as "just trying it." Diet modification for a person with Alzheimer's can mean the difference between eating 100% of a meal and eating nothing. The decline of Alzheimer's most always includes a loss of taste, dysphagia and texture/taste aversion. Completely changing their diet could result in malnutrition, aversion to food and ultimately the need for alternate methods of nutrition. It's not that simple.
Not to mention that the rigor required to maintain a ketogenic diet is not something that someone in the early stages of Alzheimer's, when they may still be caring for themselves, can support. My mother had Alzheimer's and she wasn't able to remember to take her heart, kidney, and other medicines let alone maintain a heavily restrictive diet. Not to mention that as her cognition continued to decline, she tended to fall back on "safe" choices. When we would take her out to a restaurant, no matter what kind it was, when we asked what she wanted to eat she would say, "oh I don't know, a hamburger sounds pretty good"... Pretty soon we realized she couldn't actually read and comprehend the myriad choices on a menu so she had a standard answer so that no one suspected how confused she was.
When we moved her into a long term care facility even then a ketogenic diet would have been very unsustainable, my mother and her roommate (a holocaust survivor) took to hiding food in their room because they weren't sure when they would be eating again.
If there was something reasonable and effective that could have been done to slow or reverse my mother's slow, tortured decline; I would have jumped on it in a heartbeat, but a ketogenic diet was not something that her doctors or we felt was even worth pursuing...
I agree. Caregivers would have to be on board for this diet to work.
It doesn't have to be a ketogenic diet though. It sounds like lower to moderate carbs along with a lot of MCTs or coconut oil would work fine... but yes, caregivers would need to help, just like caregivers would be needed to help in a SAD diet too.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »If ketosis was healthier in any significant amount, humanity would have mostly lived on a ketogenic diet throughout evolution, because that's how evolution works. Stuff that's beneficial stays, while stuff that's not as beneficial slowly dies out. The fact that your brain will immediately drop the ketones as soon as glucose is back on the table shows it just does not want to use them that much. Which makes sense because that's extra work and evolution, as @senecarr pointed out, strives to conserve as much energy as possible.
Humanity really is weird sometimes, trying to convince others that a process that wastes energy and is only done by your body when the preferred power sources aren't available is somehow "superior".
I didn't intend to participate anymore but I have to ask you
Did someone say that ketosis was healthier than some other thing? I didn't. Who said it was healthier and what did they say exactly?
Who is trying to convince anyone that ketosis is superior? What statement was made that claims superiority over any other thing?
Your entire response is in defense to a fictional argument where you think someone has said that ketosis is healthier and superior to the "preferred" way. I don't see the opposing side of the debate you are carrying out here. If there is someone saying those things, I have missed it.
Well that would be why you don't call using ketones optimal, claim they're a less lazy fuel, imply the brain doesn't have good, healthy reasons to use glucose as fuel, or that the properties of ketosis lead it to supposedly cure Alzheimer's, epilepsy, and so on.
I did some digging on the Alzheimer's research. Apparently one of the side effects of Alzheimer's is impaired glucose metabolism by the brain. The only reasons ketones are suggested is because they're an alternate source of fuel since the disease has affected the brain's ability to process the primary source of fuel... that's if I'm reading this correctly.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25832906
That's certainly a different spin than what I've been reading around these parts.PeachyCarol wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »You mean, you mean, ketones won't cure Alzheimer's?
http://www.senseaboutscience.org/data/files/resources/136/Ive-got-nothing-to-lose_web.pdf
Did someone say they would?
Just about. It's coy to pretend otherwise. They certainly are not a miracle intervention.
Oh please. I brought up ketones as a treatment (not THE treatment) in Alzheimers and a few people, who seem to disprove of nutritional ketosis, blew it out of proportion.
It's like being back in grade school where Suzie says Johnny was nice and the other kids start chanting "Suzie loves Johnny. Suzie wants to marry Johnny!" LOL
Someone disagrees with you so you try to covertly call them childish?0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »If ketosis was healthier in any significant amount, humanity would have mostly lived on a ketogenic diet throughout evolution, because that's how evolution works. Stuff that's beneficial stays, while stuff that's not as beneficial slowly dies out. The fact that your brain will immediately drop the ketones as soon as glucose is back on the table shows it just does not want to use them that much. Which makes sense because that's extra work and evolution, as @senecarr pointed out, strives to conserve as much energy as possible.
Humanity really is weird sometimes, trying to convince others that a process that wastes energy and is only done by your body when the preferred power sources aren't available is somehow "superior".
I didn't intend to participate anymore but I have to ask you
Did someone say that ketosis was healthier than some other thing? I didn't. Who said it was healthier and what did they say exactly?
Who is trying to convince anyone that ketosis is superior? What statement was made that claims superiority over any other thing?
Your entire response is in defense to a fictional argument where you think someone has said that ketosis is healthier and superior to the "preferred" way. I don't see the opposing side of the debate you are carrying out here. If there is someone saying those things, I have missed it.
Well that would be why you don't call using ketones optimal, claim they're a less lazy fuel, imply the brain doesn't have good, healthy reasons to use glucose as fuel, or that the properties of ketosis lead it to supposedly cure Alzheimer's, epilepsy, and so on.
I did some digging on the Alzheimer's research. Apparently one of the side effects of Alzheimer's is impaired glucose metabolism by the brain. The only reasons ketones are suggested is because they're an alternate source of fuel since the disease has affected the brain's ability to process the primary source of fuel... that's if I'm reading this correctly.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25832906
That's certainly a different spin than what I've been reading around these parts.PeachyCarol wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »You mean, you mean, ketones won't cure Alzheimer's?
http://www.senseaboutscience.org/data/files/resources/136/Ive-got-nothing-to-lose_web.pdf
Did someone say they would?
Just about. It's coy to pretend otherwise. They certainly are not a miracle intervention.
Oh please. I brought up ketones as a treatment (not THE treatment) in Alzheimers and a few people, who seem to disprove of nutritional ketosis, blew it out of proportion.
It's like being back in grade school where Suzie says Johnny was nice and the other kids start chanting "Suzie loves Johnny. Suzie wants to marry Johnny!" LOL
Someone disagrees with you so you try to covertly call them childish?
I didn't call names. It's a description of how I feel about some responses. It felt apt to me.0 -
Sugar is great. I had a thin bagel with sugar and cinnamon and it made me happy. Sugar is happiness. Go sugar!0
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Glad you found your happy. LOL0
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christinev297 wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »All I can say is, if i had a relative with Alzheimer's I wouldn't think twice about putting them on a keto diet. Whether it works or not, it would certainly be worth a try..
If it worked, I'd put all my patients on it.
I hope they look into this further and spend their dollars on serious research into keto and Alzheimer's, instead of putting the sole attention on drugs/medications
Why is this speculative option preferable to some other? Other than you being for some reason biased toward low carb at the moment?0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »brittanynicholexx wrote: »Looking into ketones as a treatment for Alzheimer's might be interesting for you, as a nursing student.
are these actually good for alzheimer's? came to comment on original post but saw this and got sidetracked. My grandpop has alzheimer's and dementia and we're always looking for something that might help him hang around with us a little longer.
Try the book Alzheimer's Disease: What if There Was a Cure? By Mary Newport MD. Ketones or MCTs are used in clinical trials, which consistent success to treat Alzheimer's. I read it after going LCHF and being startled by the obvious improvement in my cognitive abilities.
I stayed out of this thread until now, but I can't keep quiet on this one. That book is anecdotal, non evidenced based and completely subjective. The author is a neonatologist who gave her husband coconut oil and claimed she saw improvement. I see improvement from time to time in Alzheimer's patients as well - who sundown the night before and look fabulous the next morning. There are no scientific based studies that back any of these claims up and it's false hope to claim someone can improve when there is absolutely no evidence to show any decrease in brain atrophy. Alzheimer's is a terrifying disease and it scares me that people give out advice like this without having evidence behind it because it's just not true and giving false hope with words like "cure" is ridiculous and cruel. What helps is cognitive training, proven medications, and interaction with family and friends.
It sounds like the improvements her husband saw were fairly large and consistent. She had wanted him in clinical trials but he was too far gone to qualify. She gathered as many details as possible and mimicked the clinical trials as much as she could.
Yes, the book is anecdotal but there is probably something to it. Alzheimer's is thought by some to be a form of insulin resistance that affects the brain, sort of like PCOS and NAFLD are thought to also be types of IR. If the brain is experiencing IR, it makes sense to give the body a fuel where it can make ketones so the brain gets the energy it needs.
No it may not work for all, but since there is no harm in trying a ketogenic diet, or just adding MCTs or coconut oil to a diet in lieu of some carbs, why not give it a try?
While you're now posing that "curing" Alzheimers was never mentioned, I will bring up that you replied to a thread asking for help with a loved one with a book that uses the word "cure" in it's title and has no science yet to back it up. That makes me sad because she may run off and insist on a ketogenic diet for her grandfather with grandiose hopes that it will help him.
Your point in saying "there is not harm in trying a ketogenic diet" is naiive. I have patient families come into my facility constantly telling me about this new "treatment" or "cure" they read on the internet including diet modification. Don't you think that if there were evidence behind any of these things and that "it wouldn't hurt to try" that medical professionals wouldn't be trying it? I'm not saying the medical field is perfect, but why would patients be denied such a simple answer if it were effective?
You're also forgetting that it's not as simple as "just trying it." Diet modification for a person with Alzheimer's can mean the difference between eating 100% of a meal and eating nothing. The decline of Alzheimer's most always includes a loss of taste, dysphagia and texture/taste aversion. Completely changing their diet could result in malnutrition, aversion to food and ultimately the need for alternate methods of nutrition. It's not that simple.
Not to mention that the rigor required to maintain a ketogenic diet is not something that someone in the early stages of Alzheimer's, when they may still be caring for themselves, can support. My mother had Alzheimer's and she wasn't able to remember to take her heart, kidney, and other medicines let alone maintain a heavily restrictive diet. Not to mention that as her cognition continued to decline, she tended to fall back on "safe" choices. When we would take her out to a restaurant, no matter what kind it was, when we asked what she wanted to eat she would say, "oh I don't know, a hamburger sounds pretty good"... Pretty soon we realized she couldn't actually read and comprehend the myriad choices on a menu so she had a standard answer so that no one suspected how confused she was.
When we moved her into a long term care facility even then a ketogenic diet would have been very unsustainable, my mother and her roommate (a holocaust survivor) took to hiding food in their room because they weren't sure when they would be eating again.
If there was something reasonable and effective that could have been done to slow or reverse my mother's slow, tortured decline; I would have jumped on it in a heartbeat, but a ketogenic diet was not something that her doctors or we felt was even worth pursuing...
Just want to say that I'm so sorry your mother, and you and your family, suffered through this disease.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Soo.. Nursing major here.. In my opinion cutting out sugar is a bad idea for a lot of reasons like decrease in brain activity, messing up insulin and glucose levels, body will start to use up muscle mass for energy which we want muscle cause it burns more energy which is calories. Your fat is the last thing to go when starving yourself or depriving a thing like sugar. Quick fact: your brain uses 50% of sugar you consume!
@raemj1721 do you realize your post is medically speaking not factual? Google Nutritional Ketosis and learn more about that way of eating. Medically speaking there is no requirement for humans to eat carbs to be totally healthy.
Over a year ago I cut out all forms of grains and most all sugars to see if I could lower my risk of cancer, etc associated with the Rx drug Enbrel. Thankfully cutting out all grains and most all sugars (eating <50 grams of carbs daily to stay in nutritional ketosis) in only 30 days cut my pain levels from a subjective 7-8 to 2-3 and a year later my way of eating is still managing my pain well and permitted me to dodge the Enbrel and its side effects.
My 40 years of life defining IBS was cured after six months of this Way Of Eating and I lost 30 pounds.
My way of eating is 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fats. I get the glucose I need from by protein but for muscles, brain, etc I burn mainly ketones vs glucose. Nutritional Ketosis by design is muscle sparing.
raemj1721 do not be upset you have not been taught fully factual medical info in nursing school. I earned my OD degree in 1986 from SCO in Memphis TN and was not taught about how carb abuse can lead to Type 2 diabetes which is the leading cause of blindness in the USA. If you are still in school play the game as required to get your degree but start researching the full facts so when you start working you will be working with the full medical facts. Cutting all sugar is not even practical for most people but overeating sugar is bad per the article below.
Carbs are not evil but some of us will die early if we abuse them. After I found out carbs are not medically a required food it helped me to be able to stop living on mainly carbs and start my health recovery at age 63.
health.harvard.edu/blog/eating-too-much-added-sugar-increases-the-risk-of-dying-with-heart-disease-201402067021
Best of success with your nursing degree.
Yes, eating 5% carbs is healthier.
No one claims that at all! LOL!
Just like no one claims eating mostly bacon + coffee with coconut oil and butter is healthier than a diet with lots of vegetables and legumes and fruit and lean meats/fish or soy and some whole grains.
Eating carbs does not = abusing carbs, that's crazy.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »brittanynicholexx wrote: »Looking into ketones as a treatment for Alzheimer's might be interesting for you, as a nursing student.
are these actually good for alzheimer's? came to comment on original post but saw this and got sidetracked. My grandpop has alzheimer's and dementia and we're always looking for something that might help him hang around with us a little longer.
Try the book Alzheimer's Disease: What if There Was a Cure? By Mary Newport MD. Ketones or MCTs are used in clinical trials, which consistent success to treat Alzheimer's. I read it after going LCHF and being startled by the obvious improvement in my cognitive abilities.
I stayed out of this thread until now, but I can't keep quiet on this one. That book is anecdotal, non evidenced based and completely subjective. The author is a neonatologist who gave her husband coconut oil and claimed she saw improvement. I see improvement from time to time in Alzheimer's patients as well - who sundown the night before and look fabulous the next morning. There are no scientific based studies that back any of these claims up and it's false hope to claim someone can improve when there is absolutely no evidence to show any decrease in brain atrophy. Alzheimer's is a terrifying disease and it scares me that people give out advice like this without having evidence behind it because it's just not true and giving false hope with words like "cure" is ridiculous and cruel. What helps is cognitive training, proven medications, and interaction with family and friends.
It sounds like the improvements her husband saw were fairly large and consistent. She had wanted him in clinical trials but he was too far gone to qualify. She gathered as many details as possible and mimicked the clinical trials as much as she could.
Yes, the book is anecdotal but there is probably something to it. Alzheimer's is thought by some to be a form of insulin resistance that affects the brain, sort of like PCOS and NAFLD are thought to also be types of IR. If the brain is experiencing IR, it makes sense to give the body a fuel where it can make ketones so the brain gets the energy it needs.
No it may not work for all, but since there is no harm in trying a ketogenic diet, or just adding MCTs or coconut oil to a diet in lieu of some carbs, why not give it a try?
While you're now posing that "curing" Alzheimers was never mentioned, I will bring up that you replied to a thread asking for help with a loved one with a book that uses the word "cure" in it's title and has no science yet to back it up. That makes me sad because she may run off and insist on a ketogenic diet for her grandfather with grandiose hopes that it will help him.
Your point in saying "there is not harm in trying a ketogenic diet" is naiive. I have patient families come into my facility constantly telling me about this new "treatment" or "cure" they read on the internet including diet modification. Don't you think that if there were evidence behind any of these things and that "it wouldn't hurt to try" that medical professionals wouldn't be trying it? I'm not saying the medical field is perfect, but why would patients be denied such a simple answer if it were effective?
You're also forgetting that it's not as simple as "just trying it." Diet modification for a person with Alzheimer's can mean the difference between eating 100% of a meal and eating nothing. The decline of Alzheimer's most always includes a loss of taste, dysphagia and texture/taste aversion. Completely changing their diet could result in malnutrition, aversion to food and ultimately the need for alternate methods of nutrition. It's not that simple.
Not to mention that the rigor required to maintain a ketogenic diet is not something that someone in the early stages of Alzheimer's, when they may still be caring for themselves, can support. My mother had Alzheimer's and she wasn't able to remember to take her heart, kidney, and other medicines let alone maintain a heavily restrictive diet. Not to mention that as her cognition continued to decline, she tended to fall back on "safe" choices. When we would take her out to a restaurant, no matter what kind it was, when we asked what she wanted to eat she would say, "oh I don't know, a hamburger sounds pretty good"... Pretty soon we realized she couldn't actually read and comprehend the myriad choices on a menu so she had a standard answer so that no one suspected how confused she was.
When we moved her into a long term care facility even then a ketogenic diet would have been very unsustainable, my mother and her roommate (a holocaust survivor) took to hiding food in their room because they weren't sure when they would be eating again.
If there was something reasonable and effective that could have been done to slow or reverse my mother's slow, tortured decline; I would have jumped on it in a heartbeat, but a ketogenic diet was not something that her doctors or we felt was even worth pursuing...
Just want to say that I'm so sorry your mother, and you and your family, suffered through this disease.
Thank you.0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »If ketosis was healthier in any significant amount, humanity would have mostly lived on a ketogenic diet throughout evolution, because that's how evolution works. Stuff that's beneficial stays, while stuff that's not as beneficial slowly dies out. The fact that your brain will immediately drop the ketones as soon as glucose is back on the table shows it just does not want to use them that much. Which makes sense because that's extra work and evolution, as @senecarr pointed out, strives to conserve as much energy as possible.
Humanity really is weird sometimes, trying to convince others that a process that wastes energy and is only done by your body when the preferred power sources aren't available is somehow "superior".
I didn't intend to participate anymore but I have to ask you
Did someone say that ketosis was healthier than some other thing? I didn't. Who said it was healthier and what did they say exactly?
Who is trying to convince anyone that ketosis is superior? What statement was made that claims superiority over any other thing?
Your entire response is in defense to a fictional argument where you think someone has said that ketosis is healthier and superior to the "preferred" way. I don't see the opposing side of the debate you are carrying out here. If there is someone saying those things, I have missed it.
Well that would be why you don't call using ketones optimal, claim they're a less lazy fuel, imply the brain doesn't have good, healthy reasons to use glucose as fuel, or that the properties of ketosis lead it to supposedly cure Alzheimer's, epilepsy, and so on.
You're mixing us low carbers up. I know, I know. We all look and sound the same.
I'm the one who brought up Alzheimer's. I never said cure. I said ketones can be used as a treatment for Alzheimer's. It can benefit some people suffering with that. You've exaggerated the health claims of ketosis in order to win an argument (JMO).
Nope, no confusion. Look at her link and things she's mentioned, it includes Alzheimer's.
I'm afraid my carb addled brain (that would be Yarwell's term before any confusion accusation happens) can follow along.in a thread of multiple LC's. No need for me to be on a ketogenic diet for my memory.0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »If ketosis was healthier in any significant amount, humanity would have mostly lived on a ketogenic diet throughout evolution, because that's how evolution works. Stuff that's beneficial stays, while stuff that's not as beneficial slowly dies out. The fact that your brain will immediately drop the ketones as soon as glucose is back on the table shows it just does not want to use them that much. Which makes sense because that's extra work and evolution, as @senecarr pointed out, strives to conserve as much energy as possible.
Humanity really is weird sometimes, trying to convince others that a process that wastes energy and is only done by your body when the preferred power sources aren't available is somehow "superior".
I didn't intend to participate anymore but I have to ask you
Did someone say that ketosis was healthier than some other thing? I didn't. Who said it was healthier and what did they say exactly?
Who is trying to convince anyone that ketosis is superior? What statement was made that claims superiority over any other thing?
Your entire response is in defense to a fictional argument where you think someone has said that ketosis is healthier and superior to the "preferred" way. I don't see the opposing side of the debate you are carrying out here. If there is someone saying those things, I have missed it.
Well that would be why you don't call using ketones optimal, claim they're a less lazy fuel, imply the brain doesn't have good, healthy reasons to use glucose as fuel, or that the properties of ketosis lead it to supposedly cure Alzheimer's, epilepsy, and so on.
You're mixing us low carbers up. I know, I know. We all look and sound the same.
I'm the one who brought up Alzheimer's. I never said cure. I said ketones can be used as a treatment for Alzheimer's. It can benefit some people suffering with that. You've exaggerated the health claims of ketosis in order to win an argument (JMO).
Nope, no confusion. Look at her link and things she's mentioned, it includes Alzheimer's.
I'm afraid my carb addled brain (that would be Yarwell's term before any confusion accusation happens) can follow along.in a thread of multiple LC's. No need for me to be on a ketogenic diet for my memory.
Apologies. My sarcasm was a fail. My boys would hang their heads in shame at their mother's lame attempt. Shuffling off with head hung low...0 -
So a book entitled "what if there was a cure?" That goes on to make unsubstantiated claims is not a, wholly to be despised, piece of marketing crap. It's created by the author to make money from people's anguish with an unproven but easily digested theory for those feeling desperate to help those they love
Because we buy into it so easily don't we? The chance of a cure or an easement of symptoms. The thought that there is some vast conspiracy in the establishment to keep us from the truth. The yet to be proven claims spread through word of mouth and tabloid misinterpretation because we are desperate
It's human nature
It's sad
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christinev297 wrote: »
Seriously? Seriously. Are you serious?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Saying ketones are optimal and that the body uses glucose first because it's toxic?
Well "Glucose toxicity" is a thing http://www.healthcentral.com/heart-disease/c/1435/104640/toxicity/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2192847 and the whole insulin / glucagon thing is set up to control blood glucose levels to a tolerable level.
Chemically glucose and fructose are reducing sugars and not benign. Diabetes wouldn't be a disease if high levels of glucose were A Good Thing (tm)
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stevencloser wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »
Seriously? Seriously. Are you serious?
LOL0
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