The deal on sugar
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How does it not make sense? Clearly some parts of it can't be run on purely ketones, and when given the option, it always uses glucose. Why would it make sense to run on less optimal fuel when available when the evolution of the brain is the biggest part of the evolution of genus homo, and the only real thing to differentiate it?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
You are saying the body uses glucose first because its the more optimal fuel, what if the body uses glucose first because high blood glucose is a hazardous state for the body? Don't confuse 'uses first' with 'optimal'.
Well, except it is. To utilize triglycerides and and fatty acids your body has to do more chemical reactions than it does for glucose, which is why glucose is a preferred source - it is fast reactant for ATP production.
Seriously, the implication that your brain uses glucose because it is a toxic material and the body needs to dump it asap? If it was such a problem, why would the body waste energy producing glucose just to have to dump it out to keep from toxify itself? Sometimes evolution does some bass ackwards stuff because it has to work with what is there, but I assure the brain's reliance on at least some glucose isn't some klutch play energy sourcing.
Hey I don't know, but I do know better than claiming something is all-around the best and super-terrific too. Every fuel has strengths and weaknesses. If you don't know the weaknesses, it just means we don't understand, it does not mean the weakness does not exist. First & fast are positives. The negatives matter too.
False balance fallacy.
Fallacy fallacy? Quit.0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »More FTA
There is debate on whether dietary carbohydrates are actually essential for human nutrition. In the absence of dietary carbohydrate, or during starvation, gluconeogenesis alone is usually not sufficient and the brain begins to utilize ketones, a byproduct of high levels of fat oxidation (Westman 2002). Under these conditions, about 80% of the brain’s energy needs can be met from ketones but to maintain normal brain function in individuals adapted to an essentially carbohydrate-free diet there remains an absolute requirement for 30–50 g (Institute of Medicine 2006) of dietary glycemic carbohydrate per day to fill the gap between gluconeogenic capacity and the brain’s requirement for glucose (Macdonald 1988). A daily carbohydrate intake of about 50–100 g is considered essential to prevent ketosis in adults (Institute of Medicine 2006), and is consistent with a more realistic recommendation for the practical minimal requirement of 150 g/day of glycemic carbohydrate intake beyond the ages of 3 to 4 years (Bier et al. 1999). Up to the age of 3, while brain size increases rapidly, the recommendation is that at least one-third of dietary energy should be supplied from carbohydrates (Bier et al. 1999). The additional need for pregnancy and lactation was not considered.
Zero dietary glycemic carbohydrates are required per day. When I started eating under 30g of carbs/day I experienced improved cognitive abilities. As other said, your body will make what the brain and other organs require.
This article seems biased. Why would one need to prevent ketosis in adults? Especially since ketones are used to treat brain diseases such as dementia, cancer, epilepsy, and even schizophrenia.lemurcat12 wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Precisely. So -- to umayster -- why do no human cultures have a ketogenic diet?
Sorry to butt in, but I think the Masai is largely ketogenic, and the Inuit to a degree (although the consumption of raw meat may provide enough carbs to prevent ketosis if they are inactive). I could be mistaken...lemurcat12 wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »What do the nay sayers say to keto dieters and those on Low carb or NO carb diets?
That eating no carbs (i.e., no vegetables) is quite unhealthy.
If it works for you, fine, none of my business and lots of people do fine on unhealthy diets, witness the SAD. Just don't pretend no carbs is meaningfully different in terms of health (or not, in fact, often worse).
In what way do you believe it is unhealthy? What health problems do you think will arise? I'm genuinely curious.0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
How does it not make sense? Clearly some parts of it can't be run on purely ketones, and when given the option, it always uses glucose. Why would it make sense to run on less optimal fuel when available when the evolution of the brain is the biggest part of the evolution of genus homo, and the only real thing to differentiate it?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
You are saying the body uses glucose first because its the more optimal fuel, what if the body uses glucose first because high blood glucose is a hazardous state for the body? Don't confuse 'uses first' with 'optimal'.
Exactly!
You all do realize that glucose, if not used or stored as glycogen, is then stored as fat, right?
So, doesn't it make sense for the body to use as much of that as possible before resorting to storage as fat?
What do you think it does with dietary fat?
Fat is used for hormone regulation, but then of course, just like anything else, leftovers get stored. Nobody said different. Did you think I did? I guess you got confused since I pointed out that after immediate energy needs and glycogen refilling, there's no other need for glucose so it's stored as fat, but since it's not going to be glucose anymore after that, the body really is good at making use of it before other sources of energy. From an evolutionary standpoint this makes perfect sense since we didn't have access to a lot of carbohydrates on a regular basis and we physically cannot store as many calories of glycogen on our bodies as we can store as fat.Also, it's a quick burn fuel. It's like the lighter fluid you use to start a fire... You wouldn't skip the wood in preference for the quick burning lighter fluid.
And ketone bodies aren't?
No ketone bodies aren't a quick burning fuel. I think you or the other guy already made some comment about how they take longer to burn... Fat was a slower burning source of energy. You get 9 calories per gram compared to 4 with carbs.FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.
Even in a primarily carbohydrate diet, the brain still uses ketones on a daily basis. Do you think I am saying that the brain doesn't require any glucose? I'm not. I'm just saying you don't have to ingest it for your brain to get it.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
Are you able to tell me what it is specifically that vegetables provide that cannot be acquired in animal food sources?
Are you saying you need vegetables because that's what you've always been told or because you are aware of what unique micronutrients they provide?
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
LOL. no.And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
Are ketones necessary for brain function? No.
Are ketones sufficient for brain function? No.
How then, can they be optimal?
They are absolutely sufficient.
ORLY? So you're saying the brain can run exclusively on ketones? (Cuz that's what "sufficient" means donchaknow)
Again, I never said the brain doesn't need glucose. I just said you don't have to eat it to provide it.
There are too many quoted quotes in here to get this straight on mobile. Sorry.0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
How does it not make sense? Clearly some parts of it can't be run on purely ketones, and when given the option, it always uses glucose. Why would it make sense to run on less optimal fuel when available when the evolution of the brain is the biggest part of the evolution of genus homo, and the only real thing to differentiate it?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
You are saying the body uses glucose first because its the more optimal fuel, what if the body uses glucose first because high blood glucose is a hazardous state for the body? Don't confuse 'uses first' with 'optimal'.
Exactly!
You all do realize that glucose, if not used or stored as glycogen, is then stored as fat, right?
So, doesn't it make sense for the body to use as much of that as possible before resorting to storage as fat?
What do you think it does with dietary fat?
Fat is used for hormone regulation, but then of course, just like anything else, leftovers get stored. Nobody said different. Did you think I did? I guess you got confused since I pointed out that after immediate energy needs and glycogen refilling, there's no other need for glucose so it's stored as fat, but since it's not going to be glucose anymore after that, the body really is good at making use of it before other sources of energy. From an evolutionary standpoint this makes perfect sense since we didn't have access to a lot of carbohydrates on a regular basis and we physically cannot store as many calories of glycogen on our bodies as we can store as fat.Also, it's a quick burn fuel. It's like the lighter fluid you use to start a fire... You wouldn't skip the wood in preference for the quick burning lighter fluid.
And ketone bodies aren't?
No ketone bodies aren't a quick burning fuel. I think you or the other guy already made some comment about how they take longer to burn... Fat was a slower burning source of energy. You get 9 calories per gram compared to 4 with carbs.FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.
Even in a primarily carbohydrate diet, the brain still uses ketones on a daily basis. Do you think I am saying that the brain doesn't require any glucose? I'm not. I'm just saying you don't have to ingest it for your brain to get it.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
Are you able to tell me what it is specifically that vegetables provide that cannot be acquired in animal food sources?
Are you saying you need vegetables because that's what you've always been told or because you are aware of what unique micronutrients they provide?
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
LOL. no.And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
Are ketones necessary for brain function? No.
Are ketones sufficient for brain function? No.
How then, can they be optimal?
They are absolutely sufficient.
ORLY? So you're saying the brain can run exclusively on ketones? (Cuz that's what "sufficient" means donchaknow)
Again, I never said the brain doesn't need glucose. I just said you don't have to eat it to provide it.
If the brain needs glucose, then by definition ketones aren't sufficient for brain function. Capisce?
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FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
How does it not make sense? Clearly some parts of it can't be run on purely ketones, and when given the option, it always uses glucose. Why would it make sense to run on less optimal fuel when available when the evolution of the brain is the biggest part of the evolution of genus homo, and the only real thing to differentiate it?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
You are saying the body uses glucose first because its the more optimal fuel, what if the body uses glucose first because high blood glucose is a hazardous state for the body? Don't confuse 'uses first' with 'optimal'.
Exactly!
You all do realize that glucose, if not used or stored as glycogen, is then stored as fat, right?
So, doesn't it make sense for the body to use as much of that as possible before resorting to storage as fat?
What do you think it does with dietary fat?
Fat is used for hormone regulation, but then of course, just like anything else, leftovers get stored. Nobody said different. Did you think I did? I guess you got confused since I pointed out that after immediate energy needs and glycogen refilling, there's no other need for glucose so it's stored as fat, but since it's not going to be glucose anymore after that, the body really is good at making use of it before other sources of energy. From an evolutionary standpoint this makes perfect sense since we didn't have access to a lot of carbohydrates on a regular basis and we physically cannot store as many calories of glycogen on our bodies as we can store as fat.Also, it's a quick burn fuel. It's like the lighter fluid you use to start a fire... You wouldn't skip the wood in preference for the quick burning lighter fluid.
And ketone bodies aren't?
No ketone bodies aren't a quick burning fuel. I think you or the other guy already made some comment about how they take longer to burn... Fat was a slower burning source of energy. You get 9 calories per gram compared to 4 with carbs.FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.
Even in a primarily carbohydrate diet, the brain still uses ketones on a daily basis. Do you think I am saying that the brain doesn't require any glucose? I'm not. I'm just saying you don't have to ingest it for your brain to get it.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
Are you able to tell me what it is specifically that vegetables provide that cannot be acquired in animal food sources?
Are you saying you need vegetables because that's what you've always been told or because you are aware of what unique micronutrients they provide?
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
LOL. no.And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
Are ketones necessary for brain function? No.
Are ketones sufficient for brain function? No.
How then, can they be optimal?
They are absolutely sufficient.
ORLY? So you're saying the brain can run exclusively on ketones? (Cuz that's what "sufficient" means donchaknow)
Again, I never said the brain doesn't need glucose. I just said you don't have to eat it to provide it.
If the brain needs glucose, then by definition ketones aren't sufficient for brain function. Capisce?
The brain uses ketones all the time too you know... Neither of them fly solo. Not sure where that's coming from.0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »More FTA
There is debate on whether dietary carbohydrates are actually essential for human nutrition. In the absence of dietary carbohydrate, or during starvation, gluconeogenesis alone is usually not sufficient and the brain begins to utilize ketones, a byproduct of high levels of fat oxidation (Westman 2002). Under these conditions, about 80% of the brain’s energy needs can be met from ketones but to maintain normal brain function in individuals adapted to an essentially carbohydrate-free diet there remains an absolute requirement for 30–50 g (Institute of Medicine 2006) of dietary glycemic carbohydrate per day to fill the gap between gluconeogenic capacity and the brain’s requirement for glucose (Macdonald 1988). A daily carbohydrate intake of about 50–100 g is considered essential to prevent ketosis in adults (Institute of Medicine 2006), and is consistent with a more realistic recommendation for the practical minimal requirement of 150 g/day of glycemic carbohydrate intake beyond the ages of 3 to 4 years (Bier et al. 1999). Up to the age of 3, while brain size increases rapidly, the recommendation is that at least one-third of dietary energy should be supplied from carbohydrates (Bier et al. 1999). The additional need for pregnancy and lactation was not considered.
First, this starts out referencing Dr Eric Westman, chair of the KE Diet Scientific Advisory Board, Associate Professor of Medicine at Duke University Health System, Director of the Duke Lifestyle Medicine Clinic (he specializes in disease prevention), President of the American Society of Bariatric Physicians, an internationally known expert on low carbohydrate nutrition and Ketogenic diets, Co-Author of The New Atkins For a New You, The Ultimate Diet For Shedding Weight-Feeling Great and A Low Carbohydrate-Ketogenic Diet Manual, but goes on to talk about the minimum carb intake to prevent ketosis.
Yeah, I agree that would prevent ketosis. Good find.
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
How does it not make sense? Clearly some parts of it can't be run on purely ketones, and when given the option, it always uses glucose. Why would it make sense to run on less optimal fuel when available when the evolution of the brain is the biggest part of the evolution of genus homo, and the only real thing to differentiate it?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
You are saying the body uses glucose first because its the more optimal fuel, what if the body uses glucose first because high blood glucose is a hazardous state for the body? Don't confuse 'uses first' with 'optimal'.
Exactly!
You all do realize that glucose, if not used or stored as glycogen, is then stored as fat, right?
So, doesn't it make sense for the body to use as much of that as possible before resorting to storage as fat?
What do you think it does with dietary fat?
Fat is used for hormone regulation, but then of course, just like anything else, leftovers get stored. Nobody said different. Did you think I did? I guess you got confused since I pointed out that after immediate energy needs and glycogen refilling, there's no other need for glucose so it's stored as fat, but since it's not going to be glucose anymore after that, the body really is good at making use of it before other sources of energy. From an evolutionary standpoint this makes perfect sense since we didn't have access to a lot of carbohydrates on a regular basis and we physically cannot store as many calories of glycogen on our bodies as we can store as fat.Also, it's a quick burn fuel. It's like the lighter fluid you use to start a fire... You wouldn't skip the wood in preference for the quick burning lighter fluid.
And ketone bodies aren't?
No ketone bodies aren't a quick burning fuel. I think you or the other guy already made some comment about how they take longer to burn... Fat was a slower burning source of energy. You get 9 calories per gram compared to 4 with carbs.FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.
Even in a primarily carbohydrate diet, the brain still uses ketones on a daily basis. Do you think I am saying that the brain doesn't require any glucose? I'm not. I'm just saying you don't have to ingest it for your brain to get it.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
Are you able to tell me what it is specifically that vegetables provide that cannot be acquired in animal food sources?
Are you saying you need vegetables because that's what you've always been told or because you are aware of what unique micronutrients they provide?
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
LOL. no.And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
Are ketones necessary for brain function? No.
Are ketones sufficient for brain function? No.
How then, can they be optimal?
They are absolutely sufficient.
ORLY? So you're saying the brain can run exclusively on ketones? (Cuz that's what "sufficient" means donchaknow)
Again, I never said the brain doesn't need glucose. I just said you don't have to eat it to provide it.
If the brain needs glucose, then by definition ketones aren't sufficient for brain function. Capisce?
The brain uses ketones all the time too you know... Neither of them fly solo. Not sure where that's coming from.
Le sigh. One last time.
The brain can run solely on glucose, therefore ketones are not necessary.
The brain cannot run solely on ketones, therefore ketones are not sufficient.
0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Precisely. So -- to umayster -- why do no human cultures have a ketogenic diet?
Humans will eat everything which provides energy and doesn't have a direct short time link with sickness or death.
There are some cultures whose diet is low carb to ketogenic.
0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Precisely. So -- to umayster -- why do no human cultures have a ketogenic diet?
Humans will eat everything which provides energy and doesn't have a direct short time link with sickness or death.
There are some cultures whose diet is low carb to ketogenic.
Name one culture with a ketogenic diet. (And no, neither the Inuit nor the Masai have ketogenic diets)
0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Precisely. So -- to umayster -- why do no human cultures have a ketogenic diet?
Humans will eat everything which provides energy and doesn't have a direct short time link with sickness or death.
There are some cultures whose diet is low carb to ketogenic.
Name one culture with a ketogenic diet. (And no, neither the Inuit nor the Masai have ketogenic diets)
Provide source for your claim please0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
How does it not make sense? Clearly some parts of it can't be run on purely ketones, and when given the option, it always uses glucose. Why would it make sense to run on less optimal fuel when available when the evolution of the brain is the biggest part of the evolution of genus homo, and the only real thing to differentiate it?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
You are saying the body uses glucose first because its the more optimal fuel, what if the body uses glucose first because high blood glucose is a hazardous state for the body? Don't confuse 'uses first' with 'optimal'.
Exactly!
You all do realize that glucose, if not used or stored as glycogen, is then stored as fat, right?
So, doesn't it make sense for the body to use as much of that as possible before resorting to storage as fat?
What do you think it does with dietary fat?
Fat is used for hormone regulation, but then of course, just like anything else, leftovers get stored. Nobody said different. Did you think I did? I guess you got confused since I pointed out that after immediate energy needs and glycogen refilling, there's no other need for glucose so it's stored as fat, but since it's not going to be glucose anymore after that, the body really is good at making use of it before other sources of energy. From an evolutionary standpoint this makes perfect sense since we didn't have access to a lot of carbohydrates on a regular basis and we physically cannot store as many calories of glycogen on our bodies as we can store as fat.Also, it's a quick burn fuel. It's like the lighter fluid you use to start a fire... You wouldn't skip the wood in preference for the quick burning lighter fluid.
And ketone bodies aren't?
No ketone bodies aren't a quick burning fuel. I think you or the other guy already made some comment about how they take longer to burn... Fat was a slower burning source of energy. You get 9 calories per gram compared to 4 with carbs.FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.
Even in a primarily carbohydrate diet, the brain still uses ketones on a daily basis. Do you think I am saying that the brain doesn't require any glucose? I'm not. I'm just saying you don't have to ingest it for your brain to get it.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
Are you able to tell me what it is specifically that vegetables provide that cannot be acquired in animal food sources?
Are you saying you need vegetables because that's what you've always been told or because you are aware of what unique micronutrients they provide?
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
LOL. no.And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
Are ketones necessary for brain function? No.
Are ketones sufficient for brain function? No.
How then, can they be optimal?
They are absolutely sufficient.
ORLY? So you're saying the brain can run exclusively on ketones? (Cuz that's what "sufficient" means donchaknow)
Again, I never said the brain doesn't need glucose. I just said you don't have to eat it to provide it.
If the brain needs glucose, then by definition ketones aren't sufficient for brain function. Capisce?
The brain uses ketones all the time too you know... Neither of them fly solo. Not sure where that's coming from.
Le sigh. One last time.
The brain can run solely on glucose, therefore ketones are not necessary.
The brain cannot run solely on ketones, therefore ketones are not sufficient.
No, it can't run soley on glucose, and it doesn't. Not if you actually exercise or sleep. The brain must use ketones, lactate, and even pyruvate along with glucose at different times based on activity levels and if you are fasting (like while sleeping). This is true even if you ate a diet high in dietary carbs because the body must maintain a fairly narrow margin of blood glucose levels. Even if you eat 200 g of carbs at every meal, at 5am your blood glucose levels probably won't have any more available glucose for the brain than someone who only ate 100g of carbs that day. Plus it appears the brain prefers to use lactate over glucose after intense exercise.
The brain can run mainly on glucose or mainly on ketones. For people with a less healthy brain, ketones appear to be the more beneficial primary fuel source.0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
How does it not make sense? Clearly some parts of it can't be run on purely ketones, and when given the option, it always uses glucose. Why would it make sense to run on less optimal fuel when available when the evolution of the brain is the biggest part of the evolution of genus homo, and the only real thing to differentiate it?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
You are saying the body uses glucose first because its the more optimal fuel, what if the body uses glucose first because high blood glucose is a hazardous state for the body? Don't confuse 'uses first' with 'optimal'.
Exactly!
You all do realize that glucose, if not used or stored as glycogen, is then stored as fat, right?
So, doesn't it make sense for the body to use as much of that as possible before resorting to storage as fat?
What do you think it does with dietary fat?
Fat is used for hormone regulation, but then of course, just like anything else, leftovers get stored. Nobody said different. Did you think I did? I guess you got confused since I pointed out that after immediate energy needs and glycogen refilling, there's no other need for glucose so it's stored as fat, but since it's not going to be glucose anymore after that, the body really is good at making use of it before other sources of energy. From an evolutionary standpoint this makes perfect sense since we didn't have access to a lot of carbohydrates on a regular basis and we physically cannot store as many calories of glycogen on our bodies as we can store as fat.Also, it's a quick burn fuel. It's like the lighter fluid you use to start a fire... You wouldn't skip the wood in preference for the quick burning lighter fluid.
And ketone bodies aren't?
No ketone bodies aren't a quick burning fuel. I think you or the other guy already made some comment about how they take longer to burn... Fat was a slower burning source of energy. You get 9 calories per gram compared to 4 with carbs.FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.
Even in a primarily carbohydrate diet, the brain still uses ketones on a daily basis. Do you think I am saying that the brain doesn't require any glucose? I'm not. I'm just saying you don't have to ingest it for your brain to get it.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
Are you able to tell me what it is specifically that vegetables provide that cannot be acquired in animal food sources?
Are you saying you need vegetables because that's what you've always been told or because you are aware of what unique micronutrients they provide?
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
LOL. no.And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
Are ketones necessary for brain function? No.
Are ketones sufficient for brain function? No.
How then, can they be optimal?
They are absolutely sufficient.
ORLY? So you're saying the brain can run exclusively on ketones? (Cuz that's what "sufficient" means donchaknow)
Again, I never said the brain doesn't need glucose. I just said you don't have to eat it to provide it.
If the brain needs glucose, then by definition ketones aren't sufficient for brain function. Capisce?
The brain uses ketones all the time too you know... Neither of them fly solo. Not sure where that's coming from.
Le sigh. One last time.
The brain can run solely on glucose, therefore ketones are not necessary.
The brain cannot run solely on ketones, therefore ketones are not sufficient.
You are clearly not understanding.
The brain simultaneously uses glucose and ketones.
The brain is not ever without a source for more ketones just as it is not ever without a source for glucose. Ever. There is never a day that goes by without your brain using some amount of ketones. Just as there is not a day that goes by without your brain using some amount of glucose.
Are you with me?
How could you possibly know if the brain could run on either ketones or glucose alone when it cannot be completely deprived of either and does not EVER go without each of them in any given day?
I, again, HAVE NEVER CLAIMED, that it could. But you sure seem certain.
You keep asking me over and over again to explain why it can't just run on ketones... Why? I don't know? Cuz it doesn't. It also doesn't only run on glucose. I just realized now that you thought it did.0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Precisely. So -- to umayster -- why do no human cultures have a ketogenic diet?
Humans will eat everything which provides energy and doesn't have a direct short time link with sickness or death.
There are some cultures whose diet is low carb to ketogenic.
Name one culture with a ketogenic diet. (And no, neither the Inuit nor the Masai have ketogenic diets)
Provide source for your claim please
The traditional staple diet of the Maasai consists of cow milk and maizemeal, but there is variation in this diet depending on age. Young children are dependent on dairy products for both protein and energy and as a result their diet is particularly high in fat. As children get older, maizemeal becomes increasingly important in the diet, and carbohydrate rather than fat becomes the prime source of energy.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03670244.1989.9991085
It may be said that the Eskimo shows no sign of ketosis
http://www.jbc.org/content/80/2/461.full.pdf
0 -
Yeah... I ate about 15g of carbs today and I show no signs of ketosis either. Darn ketostix.
The masai diet has changed in recent years to include maize (a south American grain). http://www.maasai-association.org/maasai.html The modern Inuit's diet is FAR from traditional today.0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
How does it not make sense? Clearly some parts of it can't be run on purely ketones, and when given the option, it always uses glucose. Why would it make sense to run on less optimal fuel when available when the evolution of the brain is the biggest part of the evolution of genus homo, and the only real thing to differentiate it?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
You are saying the body uses glucose first because its the more optimal fuel, what if the body uses glucose first because high blood glucose is a hazardous state for the body? Don't confuse 'uses first' with 'optimal'.
Exactly!
You all do realize that glucose, if not used or stored as glycogen, is then stored as fat, right?
So, doesn't it make sense for the body to use as much of that as possible before resorting to storage as fat?
What do you think it does with dietary fat?
Fat is used for hormone regulation, but then of course, just like anything else, leftovers get stored. Nobody said different. Did you think I did? I guess you got confused since I pointed out that after immediate energy needs and glycogen refilling, there's no other need for glucose so it's stored as fat, but since it's not going to be glucose anymore after that, the body really is good at making use of it before other sources of energy. From an evolutionary standpoint this makes perfect sense since we didn't have access to a lot of carbohydrates on a regular basis and we physically cannot store as many calories of glycogen on our bodies as we can store as fat.Also, it's a quick burn fuel. It's like the lighter fluid you use to start a fire... You wouldn't skip the wood in preference for the quick burning lighter fluid.
And ketone bodies aren't?
No ketone bodies aren't a quick burning fuel. I think you or the other guy already made some comment about how they take longer to burn... Fat was a slower burning source of energy. You get 9 calories per gram compared to 4 with carbs.FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.
Even in a primarily carbohydrate diet, the brain still uses ketones on a daily basis. Do you think I am saying that the brain doesn't require any glucose? I'm not. I'm just saying you don't have to ingest it for your brain to get it.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
Are you able to tell me what it is specifically that vegetables provide that cannot be acquired in animal food sources?
Are you saying you need vegetables because that's what you've always been told or because you are aware of what unique micronutrients they provide?
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
LOL. no.And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
Are ketones necessary for brain function? No.
Are ketones sufficient for brain function? No.
How then, can they be optimal?
They are absolutely sufficient.
ORLY? So you're saying the brain can run exclusively on ketones? (Cuz that's what "sufficient" means donchaknow)
Again, I never said the brain doesn't need glucose. I just said you don't have to eat it to provide it.
If the brain needs glucose, then by definition ketones aren't sufficient for brain function. Capisce?
The brain uses ketones all the time too you know... Neither of them fly solo. Not sure where that's coming from.
Le sigh. One last time.
The brain can run solely on glucose, therefore ketones are not necessary.
The brain cannot run solely on ketones, therefore ketones are not sufficient.
You are clearly not understanding.
The brain simultaneously uses glucose and ketones.
The brain is not ever without a source for more ketones just as it is not ever without a source for glucose. Ever. There is never a day that goes by without your brain using some amount of ketones. Just as there is not a day that goes by without your brain using some amount of glucose.
Are you with me?
How could you possibly know if the brain could run on either ketones or glucose alone when it cannot be completely deprived of either and does not EVER go without each of them in any given day?
I, again, HAVE NEVER CLAIMED, that it could..
Do you understand what the word sufficient means?
Do you understand what the word necessary means?
0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
How does it not make sense? Clearly some parts of it can't be run on purely ketones, and when given the option, it always uses glucose. Why would it make sense to run on less optimal fuel when available when the evolution of the brain is the biggest part of the evolution of genus homo, and the only real thing to differentiate it?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
You are saying the body uses glucose first because its the more optimal fuel, what if the body uses glucose first because high blood glucose is a hazardous state for the body? Don't confuse 'uses first' with 'optimal'.
Exactly!
You all do realize that glucose, if not used or stored as glycogen, is then stored as fat, right?
So, doesn't it make sense for the body to use as much of that as possible before resorting to storage as fat?
What do you think it does with dietary fat?
Fat is used for hormone regulation, but then of course, just like anything else, leftovers get stored. Nobody said different. Did you think I did? I guess you got confused since I pointed out that after immediate energy needs and glycogen refilling, there's no other need for glucose so it's stored as fat, but since it's not going to be glucose anymore after that, the body really is good at making use of it before other sources of energy. From an evolutionary standpoint this makes perfect sense since we didn't have access to a lot of carbohydrates on a regular basis and we physically cannot store as many calories of glycogen on our bodies as we can store as fat.Also, it's a quick burn fuel. It's like the lighter fluid you use to start a fire... You wouldn't skip the wood in preference for the quick burning lighter fluid.
And ketone bodies aren't?
No ketone bodies aren't a quick burning fuel. I think you or the other guy already made some comment about how they take longer to burn... Fat was a slower burning source of energy. You get 9 calories per gram compared to 4 with carbs.FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.
Even in a primarily carbohydrate diet, the brain still uses ketones on a daily basis. Do you think I am saying that the brain doesn't require any glucose? I'm not. I'm just saying you don't have to ingest it for your brain to get it.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
Are you able to tell me what it is specifically that vegetables provide that cannot be acquired in animal food sources?
Are you saying you need vegetables because that's what you've always been told or because you are aware of what unique micronutrients they provide?
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
LOL. no.And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
Are ketones necessary for brain function? No.
Are ketones sufficient for brain function? No.
How then, can they be optimal?
They are absolutely sufficient.
ORLY? So you're saying the brain can run exclusively on ketones? (Cuz that's what "sufficient" means donchaknow)
Again, I never said the brain doesn't need glucose. I just said you don't have to eat it to provide it.
If the brain needs glucose, then by definition ketones aren't sufficient for brain function. Capisce?
The brain uses ketones all the time too you know... Neither of them fly solo. Not sure where that's coming from.
Le sigh. One last time.
The brain can run solely on glucose, therefore ketones are not necessary.
The brain cannot run solely on ketones, therefore ketones are not sufficient.
You are clearly not understanding.
The brain simultaneously uses glucose and ketones.
The brain is not ever without a source for more ketones just as it is not ever without a source for glucose. Ever. There is never a day that goes by without your brain using some amount of ketones. Just as there is not a day that goes by without your brain using some amount of glucose.
Are you with me?
How could you possibly know if the brain could run on either ketones or glucose alone when it cannot be completely deprived of either and does not EVER go without each of them in any given day?
I, again, HAVE NEVER CLAIMED, that it could..
Do you understand what the word sufficient means?
Do you understand what the word necessary means?
What exactly is your argument because I have no idea.
0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
How does it not make sense? Clearly some parts of it can't be run on purely ketones, and when given the option, it always uses glucose. Why would it make sense to run on less optimal fuel when available when the evolution of the brain is the biggest part of the evolution of genus homo, and the only real thing to differentiate it?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
You are saying the body uses glucose first because its the more optimal fuel, what if the body uses glucose first because high blood glucose is a hazardous state for the body? Don't confuse 'uses first' with 'optimal'.
Exactly!
You all do realize that glucose, if not used or stored as glycogen, is then stored as fat, right?
So, doesn't it make sense for the body to use as much of that as possible before resorting to storage as fat?
What do you think it does with dietary fat?
Fat is used for hormone regulation, but then of course, just like anything else, leftovers get stored. Nobody said different. Did you think I did? I guess you got confused since I pointed out that after immediate energy needs and glycogen refilling, there's no other need for glucose so it's stored as fat, but since it's not going to be glucose anymore after that, the body really is good at making use of it before other sources of energy. From an evolutionary standpoint this makes perfect sense since we didn't have access to a lot of carbohydrates on a regular basis and we physically cannot store as many calories of glycogen on our bodies as we can store as fat.Also, it's a quick burn fuel. It's like the lighter fluid you use to start a fire... You wouldn't skip the wood in preference for the quick burning lighter fluid.
And ketone bodies aren't?
No ketone bodies aren't a quick burning fuel. I think you or the other guy already made some comment about how they take longer to burn... Fat was a slower burning source of energy. You get 9 calories per gram compared to 4 with carbs.FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.
Even in a primarily carbohydrate diet, the brain still uses ketones on a daily basis. Do you think I am saying that the brain doesn't require any glucose? I'm not. I'm just saying you don't have to ingest it for your brain to get it.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
Are you able to tell me what it is specifically that vegetables provide that cannot be acquired in animal food sources?
Are you saying you need vegetables because that's what you've always been told or because you are aware of what unique micronutrients they provide?
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
LOL. no.And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
Are ketones necessary for brain function? No.
Are ketones sufficient for brain function? No.
How then, can they be optimal?
They are absolutely sufficient.
ORLY? So you're saying the brain can run exclusively on ketones? (Cuz that's what "sufficient" means donchaknow)
Again, I never said the brain doesn't need glucose. I just said you don't have to eat it to provide it.
If the brain needs glucose, then by definition ketones aren't sufficient for brain function. Capisce?
The brain uses ketones all the time too you know... Neither of them fly solo. Not sure where that's coming from.
Le sigh. One last time.
The brain can run solely on glucose, therefore ketones are not necessary.
The brain cannot run solely on ketones, therefore ketones are not sufficient.
No, it can't run soley on glucose, and it doesn't. Not if you actually exercise or sleep. The brain must use ketones, lactate, and even pyruvate along with glucose at different times based on activity levels and if you are fasting (like while sleeping). This is true even if you ate a diet high in dietary carbs because the body must maintain a fairly narrow margin of blood glucose levels. Even if you eat 200 g of carbs at every meal, at 5am your blood glucose levels probably won't have any more available glucose for the brain than someone who only ate 100g of carbs that day. Plus it appears the brain prefers to use lactate over glucose after intense exercise.
The brain can run mainly on glucose or mainly on ketones. For people with a less healthy brain, ketones appear to be the more beneficial primary fuel source.
Brain. Glucose is virtually the sole fuel for the human brain, except during prolonged starvation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22436/
0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
How does it not make sense? Clearly some parts of it can't be run on purely ketones, and when given the option, it always uses glucose. Why would it make sense to run on less optimal fuel when available when the evolution of the brain is the biggest part of the evolution of genus homo, and the only real thing to differentiate it?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
You are saying the body uses glucose first because its the more optimal fuel, what if the body uses glucose first because high blood glucose is a hazardous state for the body? Don't confuse 'uses first' with 'optimal'.
Exactly!
You all do realize that glucose, if not used or stored as glycogen, is then stored as fat, right?
So, doesn't it make sense for the body to use as much of that as possible before resorting to storage as fat?
What do you think it does with dietary fat?
Fat is used for hormone regulation, but then of course, just like anything else, leftovers get stored. Nobody said different. Did you think I did? I guess you got confused since I pointed out that after immediate energy needs and glycogen refilling, there's no other need for glucose so it's stored as fat, but since it's not going to be glucose anymore after that, the body really is good at making use of it before other sources of energy. From an evolutionary standpoint this makes perfect sense since we didn't have access to a lot of carbohydrates on a regular basis and we physically cannot store as many calories of glycogen on our bodies as we can store as fat.Also, it's a quick burn fuel. It's like the lighter fluid you use to start a fire... You wouldn't skip the wood in preference for the quick burning lighter fluid.
And ketone bodies aren't?
No ketone bodies aren't a quick burning fuel. I think you or the other guy already made some comment about how they take longer to burn... Fat was a slower burning source of energy. You get 9 calories per gram compared to 4 with carbs.FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.
Even in a primarily carbohydrate diet, the brain still uses ketones on a daily basis. Do you think I am saying that the brain doesn't require any glucose? I'm not. I'm just saying you don't have to ingest it for your brain to get it.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
Are you able to tell me what it is specifically that vegetables provide that cannot be acquired in animal food sources?
Are you saying you need vegetables because that's what you've always been told or because you are aware of what unique micronutrients they provide?
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
LOL. no.And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
Are ketones necessary for brain function? No.
Are ketones sufficient for brain function? No.
How then, can they be optimal?
They are absolutely sufficient.
ORLY? So you're saying the brain can run exclusively on ketones? (Cuz that's what "sufficient" means donchaknow)
Again, I never said the brain doesn't need glucose. I just said you don't have to eat it to provide it.
If the brain needs glucose, then by definition ketones aren't sufficient for brain function. Capisce?
The brain uses ketones all the time too you know... Neither of them fly solo. Not sure where that's coming from.
Le sigh. One last time.
The brain can run solely on glucose, therefore ketones are not necessary.
The brain cannot run solely on ketones, therefore ketones are not sufficient.
No, it can't run soley on glucose, and it doesn't. Not if you actually exercise or sleep. The brain must use ketones, lactate, and even pyruvate along with glucose at different times based on activity levels and if you are fasting (like while sleeping). This is true even if you ate a diet high in dietary carbs because the body must maintain a fairly narrow margin of blood glucose levels. Even if you eat 200 g of carbs at every meal, at 5am your blood glucose levels probably won't have any more available glucose for the brain than someone who only ate 100g of carbs that day. Plus it appears the brain prefers to use lactate over glucose after intense exercise.
The brain can run mainly on glucose or mainly on ketones. For people with a less healthy brain, ketones appear to be the more beneficial primary fuel source.
Brain. Glucose is virtually the sole fuel for the human brain, except during prolonged starvation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22436/
That's for someone eating a SAD diet. Not ketogenic.
Even so, note the word virtually instead of solely.
Bed time. Time to rely mainly on ketones for a few hours...0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
How does it not make sense? Clearly some parts of it can't be run on purely ketones, and when given the option, it always uses glucose. Why would it make sense to run on less optimal fuel when available when the evolution of the brain is the biggest part of the evolution of genus homo, and the only real thing to differentiate it?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
You are saying the body uses glucose first because its the more optimal fuel, what if the body uses glucose first because high blood glucose is a hazardous state for the body? Don't confuse 'uses first' with 'optimal'.
Exactly!
You all do realize that glucose, if not used or stored as glycogen, is then stored as fat, right?
So, doesn't it make sense for the body to use as much of that as possible before resorting to storage as fat?
What do you think it does with dietary fat?
Fat is used for hormone regulation, but then of course, just like anything else, leftovers get stored. Nobody said different. Did you think I did? I guess you got confused since I pointed out that after immediate energy needs and glycogen refilling, there's no other need for glucose so it's stored as fat, but since it's not going to be glucose anymore after that, the body really is good at making use of it before other sources of energy. From an evolutionary standpoint this makes perfect sense since we didn't have access to a lot of carbohydrates on a regular basis and we physically cannot store as many calories of glycogen on our bodies as we can store as fat.Also, it's a quick burn fuel. It's like the lighter fluid you use to start a fire... You wouldn't skip the wood in preference for the quick burning lighter fluid.
And ketone bodies aren't?
No ketone bodies aren't a quick burning fuel. I think you or the other guy already made some comment about how they take longer to burn... Fat was a slower burning source of energy. You get 9 calories per gram compared to 4 with carbs.FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.
Even in a primarily carbohydrate diet, the brain still uses ketones on a daily basis. Do you think I am saying that the brain doesn't require any glucose? I'm not. I'm just saying you don't have to ingest it for your brain to get it.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
Are you able to tell me what it is specifically that vegetables provide that cannot be acquired in animal food sources?
Are you saying you need vegetables because that's what you've always been told or because you are aware of what unique micronutrients they provide?
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
LOL. no.And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
Are ketones necessary for brain function? No.
Are ketones sufficient for brain function? No.
How then, can they be optimal?
They are absolutely sufficient.
ORLY? So you're saying the brain can run exclusively on ketones? (Cuz that's what "sufficient" means donchaknow)
Again, I never said the brain doesn't need glucose. I just said you don't have to eat it to provide it.
If the brain needs glucose, then by definition ketones aren't sufficient for brain function. Capisce?
The brain uses ketones all the time too you know... Neither of them fly solo. Not sure where that's coming from.
Le sigh. One last time.
The brain can run solely on glucose, therefore ketones are not necessary.
The brain cannot run solely on ketones, therefore ketones are not sufficient.
You are clearly not understanding.
The brain simultaneously uses glucose and ketones.
The brain is not ever without a source for more ketones just as it is not ever without a source for glucose. Ever. There is never a day that goes by without your brain using some amount of ketones. Just as there is not a day that goes by without your brain using some amount of glucose.
Are you with me?
How could you possibly know if the brain could run on either ketones or glucose alone when it cannot be completely deprived of either and does not EVER go without each of them in any given day?
I, again, HAVE NEVER CLAIMED, that it could..
Do you understand what the word sufficient means?
Do you understand what the word necessary means?
What exactly is your argument because I have no idea.
Sigh
Me;Are ketones necessary for brain function? No.
Are ketones sufficient for brain function? No.
How then, can they be optimal?
YouThey are absolutely sufficient.
Do I really have to explain what sufficient means?
0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
How does it not make sense? Clearly some parts of it can't be run on purely ketones, and when given the option, it always uses glucose. Why would it make sense to run on less optimal fuel when available when the evolution of the brain is the biggest part of the evolution of genus homo, and the only real thing to differentiate it?Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
You are saying the body uses glucose first because its the more optimal fuel, what if the body uses glucose first because high blood glucose is a hazardous state for the body? Don't confuse 'uses first' with 'optimal'.
Exactly!
You all do realize that glucose, if not used or stored as glycogen, is then stored as fat, right?
So, doesn't it make sense for the body to use as much of that as possible before resorting to storage as fat?
What do you think it does with dietary fat?
Fat is used for hormone regulation, but then of course, just like anything else, leftovers get stored. Nobody said different. Did you think I did? I guess you got confused since I pointed out that after immediate energy needs and glycogen refilling, there's no other need for glucose so it's stored as fat, but since it's not going to be glucose anymore after that, the body really is good at making use of it before other sources of energy. From an evolutionary standpoint this makes perfect sense since we didn't have access to a lot of carbohydrates on a regular basis and we physically cannot store as many calories of glycogen on our bodies as we can store as fat.Also, it's a quick burn fuel. It's like the lighter fluid you use to start a fire... You wouldn't skip the wood in preference for the quick burning lighter fluid.
And ketone bodies aren't?
No ketone bodies aren't a quick burning fuel. I think you or the other guy already made some comment about how they take longer to burn... Fat was a slower burning source of energy. You get 9 calories per gram compared to 4 with carbs.FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »Psst. Fun Fact. Go ahead and eat ZERO carbs (sugar is a carb) and your magical body will magically produce all the magical sugar your body and brain requires to run effectively. Its magic. Don't tell anyone. It is a secret. Amaze your friends. Thank me later.
By "effectively" you mean "doesn't die".
Essential is not the same as optimal.
Not hardly.
Ketones are an optimal brain fuel.
If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively. But it can't.
Even in a primarily carbohydrate diet, the brain still uses ketones on a daily basis. Do you think I am saying that the brain doesn't require any glucose? I'm not. I'm just saying you don't have to ingest it for your brain to get it.It's been used for decades to preserve brain health in epileptics by preventing seizures and is currently a treatment for many other brain diseases/conditions including cancer. Only a minimal amount of glucose is required on a daily basis and can be provided through gluconeogenesis from consumed protein.
Carbs are a non essential food.
Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself. Hence the distinction between essential and optimal.
If you think that non-essential nutrients should be avoided, you had better stop eating saturated and monounsaturated fats, since none of them are essential either.It's just as bad to tell people they HAVE to have at least some carbs and sugar to perform at optimal levels as it is to suggest that nobody should ever eat them.
If you eat no carbs at all, then you are eating no vegetables. So yes, you must eat some to perform optimally.
Are you able to tell me what it is specifically that vegetables provide that cannot be acquired in animal food sources?
Are you saying you need vegetables because that's what you've always been told or because you are aware of what unique micronutrients they provide?
I never said non essential nutrients should be avoided. I've never told anyone they should or shouldn't eat anything. I've never told anyone that a certain this or that must be had in any volume whatsoever.
I simply stated that carbs are a non essential food.
Your statement "Essential nutrients are those which the body relies on but cannot synthesize itself." I agree with. The body CAN synthesize its own glucose. And when it does, it only creates a minimal amount. It could just keep making glucose, but once it has what it needs, any remaining excess protein is also turned into ketones...
LOL. no.And this just doesn't make sense. "If ketones were optimal, the brain would be able to run on them exclusively." Why?
Are ketones necessary for brain function? No.
Are ketones sufficient for brain function? No.
How then, can they be optimal?
They are absolutely sufficient.
ORLY? So you're saying the brain can run exclusively on ketones? (Cuz that's what "sufficient" means donchaknow)
Again, I never said the brain doesn't need glucose. I just said you don't have to eat it to provide it.
If the brain needs glucose, then by definition ketones aren't sufficient for brain function. Capisce?
The brain uses ketones all the time too you know... Neither of them fly solo. Not sure where that's coming from.
Le sigh. One last time.
The brain can run solely on glucose, therefore ketones are not necessary.
The brain cannot run solely on ketones, therefore ketones are not sufficient.
You are clearly not understanding.
The brain simultaneously uses glucose and ketones.
The brain is not ever without a source for more ketones just as it is not ever without a source for glucose. Ever. There is never a day that goes by without your brain using some amount of ketones. Just as there is not a day that goes by without your brain using some amount of glucose.
Are you with me?
How could you possibly know if the brain could run on either ketones or glucose alone when it cannot be completely deprived of either and does not EVER go without each of them in any given day?
I, again, HAVE NEVER CLAIMED, that it could..
Do you understand what the word sufficient means?
Do you understand what the word necessary means?
What exactly is your argument because I have no idea.
Sigh
Me;Are ketones necessary for brain function? No.
Are ketones sufficient for brain function? No.
How then, can they be optimal?
YouThey are absolutely sufficient.
Do I really have to explain what sufficient means?
Ketones are a part of your brain energy every day. So, it's your body that's says they are essential, not me.
Optimal... As in for reducing oxidative stress, preventing disease, supporting mitochondrial growth, long lasting source of fuel that your body always carries extra of and I promise won't leave you "bonking" on a hill somewhere while out running because you ran out of fat.
Sufficient, meaning as a primary fat burner, the presence of ketones not only serves as a readily available source, it's actually used to treat and prevent diseases, that don't respond as favorably in a primarily glucose burning system.
You are under the impression that glucose is a one man show. You need to hit the books.
I can't do this with you anymore.
This is the kind of misinformation that keeps circulating and causes rounds and rounds of the same question over and over again that I've answered like 5 times already.
I can't help that you don't understand it.
Find some sources and do some research. I did.0
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