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Arguing Semantics - sugar addiction
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I was hoping people would take my word play a little more stoically.0 -
I love The Divine Comedy digression...you guys rock
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I love The Divine Comedy digression...you guys rock
Violation of CG #2.
(*and yes, my post is apparently a violation of the "no providing references to the CG" unwritten rule (which I suppose is CG #11 but that's kind of a stretch...which were I to receive a reprimand and then publicly make this argument, would then actually be a clear violation of CG #11. )0 -
Heisenberg's uncertainty thread though - how can we ever say all the other circumstances would have come out without some people suggesting addiction isn't appropriate terminology or that therapy is necessary if they truly feel it is addiciton? Perhaps without those being mentioned, the person wouldn't have been drawn out to say it. So it seems unfair to say it is unproductive to discuss things that way when you can't actually show how the conversation would have happened in universe B where no said addiction to food substance isn't a thing.
Exactly--how many times, with a little proding and poking, the OP admits to being in therapy now or in the past. Sometimes it hasn't worked. In my opinion, this happens alot with OPs that argue with all advice given. A million reasons why A or B won't work for them, and round and round. Once you discover they've been in therapy, that's the only route you can give them for advice. What they've got isn't as simple as they first describe.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
As someone with a history of binges, I cringe when I see "binge" used that way. I understand the events being described are usually upsetting to the posters who are writing, so I try to be mindful of their experience and not project my past on to them, but really -- seeing it used to describe eating an box of crackers or some pizza . . . no.
Ok, so I'm confused. I haven't read further to see if it's already been addressed, but the actual definition of binge is "a short period devoted to indulging in an activity to excess, especially drinking alcohol or eating." To me, this includes the occasional overindulgence.
I can see how people with an eating disorder may put another connotation to the term, but why is it not ok to use the dictionary definition of a word, and how the heck is someone supposed to know that connotation if they don't have that experience? To me, this is putting a particular person's feelings (in this case, feelings related to eating disorders) over facts (like what an actual word is defined).0 -
missblondi2u wrote: »
Ok, so I'm confused. I haven't read further to see if it's already been addressed, but the actual definition of binge is "a short period devoted to indulging in an activity to excess, especially drinking alcohol or eating." To me, this includes the occasional overindulgence.
I can see how people with an eating disorder may put another connotation to the term, but why is it not ok to use the dictionary definition of a word, and how the heck is someone supposed to know that connotation if they don't have that experience? To me, this is putting a particular person's feelings (in this case, feelings related to eating disorders) over facts (like what an actual word is defined).
I have seen several posts when it stays out as "I binged" and turns into "I ate two cookies and they didn't fit within my goal".
Compare to: "I'm psychotic, someone help me work on my psychosis" when they actually mean: "life is hectic right now and I feel like things are crazy".
Yes it is annoying when someone used a medical term to mean something completely different, especially on a forum where there's a high chance of a fair number of members would have said medical condition.0 -
I have seen several posts when it stays out as "I binged" and turns into "I ate two cookies and they didn't fit within my goal".
Compare to: "I'm psychotic, someone help me work on my psychosis" when they actually mean: "life is hectic right now and I feel like things are crazy".
Yes it is annoying when someone used a medical term to mean something completely different, especially on a forum where there's a high chance of a fair number of members would have said medical condition.
Oh you mean like someone uses the term addicted and turns out, they just like to eat XX food
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Oh you mean like someone uses the term addicted and turns out, they just like to eat XX food
I'm confused. It almost sounds like you are saying that the meaning of the word "addiction" matters and that we should try to understand what a person means when they use that word because their casual usage of the word may not mean the same as the clinical definition...0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »
I'm confused. It almost sounds like you are saying that the meaning of the word "addiction" matters and that we should try to understand what a person means when they use that word because their casual usage of the word may not mean the same as the clinical definition...
Shurely not0 -
I have seen several posts when it stays out as "I binged" and turns into "I ate two cookies and they didn't fit within my goal".
Compare to: "I'm psychotic, someone help me work on my psychosis" when they actually mean: "life is hectic right now and I feel like things are crazy".
Yes it is annoying when someone used a medical term to mean something completely different, especially on a forum where there's a high chance of a fair number of members would have said medical condition.
I actually looked up binge in a medical dictionary, and it still says "Consumption of large amounts of food in a short period of time, sometimes followed by purging." Since "large" was not a defined term, that makes it up to the person's interpretation of what a binge is or is not. Just because you have a certain level of what makes a binge doesn't mean that other people can't have different ideas without being insensitive. It's all subjective, and you don't get to say whether my 800 extra calories was a binge or not. If I said "I have a binge eating disorder," and all I did was eat a couple extra cookies, by all means that should be corrected. Saying I binged on cookies is not the same thing as claiming an eating disorder.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »
I'm confused. It almost sounds like you are saying that the meaning of the word "addiction" matters and that we should try to understand what a person means when they use that word because their casual usage of the word may not mean the same as the clinical definition...
Yea... its the whole reason I said for 3 pages that context matters and this jumping to absolutes is not beneficial.0 -
Yea... its the whole reason I said for 3 pages that context matters and this jumping to absolutes is not beneficial.
But why have so many of us been told time and again that discussing the definition of addiction is derailing a thread, and that semantics discussions would be redirected over here to the debate section?
(see my slippery slope post upthread for an example of how this might play out with a real OP inquiry)0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »
But why have so many of us been told time and again that discussing the definition of addiction is derailing a thread, and that semantics discussions would be redirected over here to the debate section?
(see my slippery slope post upthread for an example of how this might play out with a real OP inquiry)
There is a huge difference between requesting the OP to add additional context, than arguing with other members for 10 pages over the semantics of sugar addiction, words and their meanings, and other definitions.
See... I didn't even us the words, we, you, our, or anything other qualifier.. so NO ONE should be offended
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There is a huge difference between requesting the OP to add additional context, than arguing with other members for 10 pages over the semantics of sugar addiction, words and their meanings, and other definitions.
See... I didn't even us the words, we, you, our, or anything other qualifier.. so NO ONE should be offended
I'm offended by generalities and ambiguity.0 -
I believe it is important....what we call something and why. It's one of the many reasons why I put this article in the thread a couple days back.
http://www.vice.com/read/language-of-catastrophe-why-we-need-to-stop-saying-were-mental?utm_source=vicefbus
But instead we get a mocking statement followed by a winky face...in the face of the discussion. Never change MFP, never change.
Since most words have various definitions, like binge, it's can be difficult. This doesn't even consider the language barrier.0 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »
I'm offended by generalities and ambiguity.
And I am offended by you being offended...
So before I "offend" anyone else, am I allowed to use any emoji.. or is that just going to be too offensive.0 -
And I am offended by you being offended...
So before I "offend" anyone else, am I allowed to use any emoji.. or is that just going to be too offensive.
How dare you!
Good day, sir!
I said GOOD DAY!0 -
And I am offended by you being offended...
So before I "offend" anyone else, am I allowed to use any emoji.. or is that just going to be too offensive.
Passive aggressiveness is tacky on a mod. But since when has MFP ever cared about that?0 -
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Since most words have various definitions, like binge, it's can be difficult. This doesn't even consider the language barrier.
And yet another complication of that the definition of a word changes over time according to usage. Take the word decimate. It's original meaning was just "a tenth" but it was used to describe the Roman practice of killing 1/10 men after a mutiny. Now decimate has another, no less valid definition (to kill or destroy), which you can find in the dictionary.
This is why terms like binge or mental don't bother me, because the meaning of a word changes according to common usage, and most people realize that saying "you're mental" is not the same as saying the person has an actual mental disorder.0 -
This discussion has sharked jumped several times so I wanted to reiterate that this discussion is not the place to share your feelings or your concerns over MFP and/or the moderation team or employees of MFP or the purpose of this category. If this discussion can't stay mostly focused on the topic at hand then it will be closed.0
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missblondi2u wrote: »
And yet another complication of that the definition of a word changes over time according to usage. Take the word decimate. It's original meaning was just "a tenth" but it was used to describe the Roman practice of killing 1/10 men after a mutiny. Now decimate has another, no less valid definition (to kill or destroy), which you can find in the dictionary.
This is why terms like binge or mental don't bother me, because the meaning of a word changes according to common usage, and most people realize that saying "you're mental" is not the same as saying the person has an actual mental disorder.
Except when a person is claiming an addiction to a substance and actively argues against logic and reason when it comes to eating. One of the threads that saw posts split into this new subforum had a member claiming an addiction to sugar ... but only sugar in a narrow range of foods that they found particularly tasty ... not sugars in beets, broccoli, dairy, bananas. If one is truly addicted to sugar, they would seek it out wherever they can find it. One having a lack of willpower around certain foods they find tasty is not an addiction.0 -
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When someone says they are addicted to a substance (usually sugar)...there is such value and IMO important to challenging that misnomer. It doesn't mean getting into a tit for tat argument with someone about it, but it also doesn't mean sharing truth and knowledge is being mean or unsupportive (which is how it is often tagged). I've also almost universally seen that challenging of misinformation coupled with strategies to handle problem eating when it comes to sugar. I know I used to post along those lines pretty regularly. It was my way of paying it forward for people challenging the mistruths and wrong assumptions I believed. Unfortunately, I no longer do that since I just don't see it valued much anymore in these parts.
I also fundamentally believe that you can answer the OP while not actually answering the question asked. I know I personally felt that way. If I only got the specific information asked...and never got my beliefs challenged, I am pretty sure I would still be lost on the path to wellness. I was challenged. I grew. I learned. I benefited from it. I am a much more well rounded, healthy human being for it. So, I am thankful that I grew up MFP style in an environment where it flourished and was allowed to exist.
The part in bold goes back to earlier parts of the discussion. Sometimes what a person needs is the base fallacy challenged ... not an answer to specifics based on those fallacies. Now, those types of response get culled from the thread and the person only gets reinforcement of their flawed position.
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brianpperkins wrote: »
The part in bold goes back to earlier parts of the discussion. Sometimes what a person needs is the base fallacy challenged ... not an answer to specifics based on those fallacies. Now, those types of response get culled from the thread and the person only gets reinforcement of their flawed position.
Or sometimes the OP's request suffers from over constraint - "Can you tell me how to fix my problem, but do it without denying I'm sugar addict, but also without telling me to treat my addiction as an addiction (seek counseling, completely abstain from the substance" or " tell me what fruit I can eat so that I can avoid sugar", or "tell me how I can fix my sugar withdrawal - don't say it is keto flu or that I can't withdraw from sugar because I can feel it happening." All of these requests are demanding to find a way to 2+2 and get 5 (and this is base 10 before someone thinks they're going to be clever in relaxing the constraints by changing bases or converting symbols).0 -
I wanted to take a minute to touch on a particular semantic that was addressed by @missblondi2u . The meaning of words and what the actually means. Sorry if this seems like beating a dead horse, but I think it's highly important given the discussions at hand. To keep it as short as possible, I will concentrate on the word addiction.
Merriam-Webster defines addiction as:- the quality or state of being addicted <addiction to reading>
- compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful
The American Society for Addictive Medicine defines addiction as:- Addiction is characterized by inability to consistently abstain, impairment in behavioral control, craving, diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships, and a dysfunctional emotional response. Like other chronic diseases, addiction often involves cycles of relapse and remission. Without treatment or engagement in recovery activities, addiction is progressive and can result in disability or premature death.
- Addiction is a primary, chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry. Addiction affects neurotransmission and interactions within reward structures of the brain, including the nucleus accumbens, anterior cingulate cortex, basal forebrain and amygdala, such that motivational hierarchies are altered and addictive behaviors, which may or may not include alcohol and other drug use, supplant healthy, self-care related behaviors. Addiction also affects neurotransmission and interactions between cortical and hippocampal circuits and brain reward structures, such that the memory of previous exposures to rewards (such as food, sex, alcohol and other drugs) leads to a biological and behavioral response to external cues, in turn triggering craving and/or engagement in addictive behaviors.
And finally DSM V- Addiction (termed substance dependence by the American Psychiatric Association) is defined as a maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress
As you can clearly see, there is NOT one specific definition and why this can be so confusing for many. And this was only 3 sources and DSM wasn't even on the first page of google when I searched for the definition. I had to add DSM to the search. So while many of you may have clear definitions in your head (which I get, some of your have degrees in psychology and work in the field), it doesn't mean everyone else does.
side note - not arguing for sugar addiction. Again, food addiction would be more likely but even then, I personally think its more of an eating disorder.0 -
The American Society for Addictive Medicine's second definition is somewhat self contradicting. It gives food as an example, but says addiction requires reorienting the motivational hierarchies - well outside of air, you can't really move air up any higher on the hierarchy of motivation.I wanted to take a minute to touch on a particular semantic that was addressed by @missblondi2u . The meaning of words and what the actually means. Sorry if this seems like beating a dead horse, but I think it's highly important given the discussions at hand. To keep it as short as possible, I will concentrate on the word addiction.
Merriam-Webster defines addiction as:- the quality or state of being addicted <addiction to reading>
- compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful
The American Society for Addictive Medicine defines addiction as:- Addiction is characterized by inability to consistently abstain, impairment in behavioral control, craving, diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships, and a dysfunctional emotional response. Like other chronic diseases, addiction often involves cycles of relapse and remission. Without treatment or engagement in recovery activities, addiction is progressive and can result in disability or premature death.
- Addiction is a primary, chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry. Addiction affects neurotransmission and interactions within reward structures of the brain, including the nucleus accumbens, anterior cingulate cortex, basal forebrain and amygdala, such that motivational hierarchies are altered and addictive behaviors, which may or may not include alcohol and other drug use, supplant healthy, self-care related behaviors. Addiction also affects neurotransmission and interactions between cortical and hippocampal circuits and brain reward structures, such that the memory of previous exposures to rewards (such as food, sex, alcohol and other drugs) leads to a biological and behavioral response to external cues, in turn triggering craving and/or engagement in addictive behaviors.
And finally DSM V- Addiction (termed substance dependence by the American Psychiatric Association) is defined as a maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress
As you can clearly see, there is NOT one specific definition and why this can be so confusing for many. And this was only 3 sources and DSM wasn't even on the first page of google when I searched for the definition. I had to add DSM to the search. So while many of you may have clear definitions in your head (which I get, some of your have degrees in psychology and work in the field), it doesn't mean everyone else does.
side note - not arguing for sugar addiction. Again, food addiction would be more likely but even then, I personally think its more of an eating disorder.
I'll also give my stock problem with trying to use a dictionary as proof - you can probably add 2+2 together, which according to the dictionary makes you a computer. I'd be asinine to try to cram a USB stick in you and get upset that you won't boot up WIndows 10 just because you're a computer. It requires context, and often when teasing out context, the threads get shut down, or we do get OP's that insist that they meet the DSM concept of substance dependence, and then the thread gets shut down.
As far as food addiction, again no. The concept being put around for possible future DSM's is eating addiction. There is nothing in the substance of food that is addictive, it is behavioral - closer to gambling addiction than cocaine.0 -
The American Society for Addictive Medicine's second definition is somewhat self contradicting. It gives food as an example, but says addiction requires reorienting the motivational hierarchies - well outside of air, you can't really move air up any higher on the hierarchy of motivation.
I'll also give my stock problem with trying to use a dictionary as proof - you can probably add 2+2 together, which according to the dictionary makes you a computer. I'd be asinine to try to cram a USB stick in you and get upset that you won't boot up WIndows 10 just because you're a computer. It requires context, and often when teasing out context, the threads get shut down, or we do get OP's that insist that they meet the DSM concept of substance dependence, and then the thread gets shut down.
As far as food addiction, again no. The concept being put around for possible future DSM's is eating addiction. There is nothing in the substance of food that is addictive, it is behavioral - closer to gambling addiction than cocaine.
The main point was, that we argue for semantics and definitions but we can't find one set of definitions... we can easily apply this same concept, as already demonstrated, to binging.
And trust me, words have meaning, unfortunately those meanings vary a lot by organization.0
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