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Why do people overeat and/or become obese? Is it harder than average for some to lose weight?
Replies
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So after 11 pages, has any consensus been reached to those two questions?0
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »So after 11 pages, has any consensus been reached to those two questions?
This seems to be a topic that people are very polar on. If you can answer that question you could solve the overeating and obesity epidemic!1 -
Ha! @EvgeniZyntx Good question. I would like to add that the combination of fat and carb like in french fries or potato chips is an "excitogen" for me so I either stay away or weigh them & eat them after pre-logging them which for some reason works for me. I woke up this morning thinking about this ongoing debate involving semantics. There certainly is something having to to with the pleasure centers of the brain that drives some of us to think about and crave certain foods, and it worsens or becomes more intense if we eat them so that we want them more.
In treating trauma victims, some of the experts talk about PTSD with a big T, like vets who have experienced horrible war tragedies, and PtSD with a little t, like someone whose mother died at a young age unexpectedly and it resulted in startling awake at night and fear of social situations or something that they never get over. It's a similar dilemma. What do you call the lesser condition? It's still real, it has some similarities to the big T condition, and yet it doesn't really fit all the criteria. I think it gets debated so much because we don't have the right terminology. Craving, Hankering, Jonesing, Appetence, Ravenousness, Obsession, Sweet Tooth...Greed, Gluttony...none of these work that well, although I use Craving, Obsession, Sweet Tooth, and Food Thinking. This could be fun...any other terms people want to throw in?3 -
I recently read about this interesting Harvard study that discusses macros.
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/06/when-a-calorie-is-not-just-a-calorie/
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Channeling my best Jim Mora:EvgeniZyntx wrote: »So after 11 pages, has any consensus been reached to those two questions?
“ What’s that? Ah — Consensus? Don’t talk about — Consensus? You kidding me? Consensus? I just hope we can agree on a damned word! "2 -
Channeling my best Jim Mora:EvgeniZyntx wrote: »So after 11 pages, has any consensus been reached to those two questions?
“ What’s that? Ah — Consensus? Don’t talk about — Consensus? You kidding me? Consensus? I just hope we can agree on a damned word! "
If I looked out my window and said, "The sky is blue today where I am" people on here would debate it and say, "No, that can't be. It is raining/cloudy/foggy here. " Another person would say, "You can't call it blue because at sunrise and sunset it has orange and pink." Or in another time zone, "It is still dark outside." This can go on and on.
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KetoneKaren wrote: »I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.
true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...
so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.
So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?
Just asking for clarification.
Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...
I do consider dependency and addiction different.
I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...
I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.
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Channeling my best Jim Mora:EvgeniZyntx wrote: »So after 11 pages, has any consensus been reached to those two questions?
“ What’s that? Ah — Consensus? Don’t talk about — Consensus? You kidding me? Consensus? I just hope we can agree on a damned word! "
if you can answer the two questions as mentioned before you will be rich.
I think it's different for everyone.
There are 4 main reasons I see, and people may have more than one reason and some may not even be food related...where food is used a comfort.
I mentioned them back a ways.
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KetoneKaren wrote: »I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.
true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...
so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.
So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?
Just asking for clarification.
Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...
I do consider dependency and addiction different.
I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...
I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.
I see. That is opposite of the conventional use of the term "dependency". Perhaps that is the root of our disagreement on addiction.
ETA: I pretty much agree with everything elseelse.2 -
(Edited to remove double quote)KetoneKaren wrote: »I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.
true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...
so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.
So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?
Just asking for clarification.
Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...
I do consider dependency and addiction different.
I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...
I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.
I do not believe that once the "chemicals" are gone that addiction is gone. Just because one quits a substance doesn't mean that if one imbibed once again that it wouldn't rear up and become activated. I think that addiction can be dormant until the agent is reintroduced. But I may be wrong. I don't know enough about the subject to be an expert.2 -
sashayoung72 wrote: »alyssa_rest wrote: »I don't know if there is a right answer. One thing I've learned through my own struggle and research is that your body craves nutrients. When it feels as though it is lacking one, it demands more. When you have had what is required, you become full. That is why eating one chicken breast and steamed veggies will fill you up quicker and for a longer time period than indulging in an entire bag of chips. Doesn't mean it tastes better though, haha! CICO does work. It's scientifically proven and no one can argue that. I think that many people are totally unaware of how effective it is. And yes, you can eat "healthy foods" all you want. It is easy to even over-eat what's deemed as "healthy" as well. Those uneducated on CICO don't understand that. Or maybe they even don't WANT to understand.
see I beg to differ because I eat the healthier foods, I love veggies etc, WHAT I CRAVE is the complete opposite, i CRAVE the ice cream, the salty chips and other so called non-healthy food.
This is true for me also. What I crave adds very little nutrients and plenty of extra calories. That's why I can cut ice cream and cookies (mostly) out of my diet and not suffer from a deficiency.0 -
(Edited to remove double quote)KetoneKaren wrote: »I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.
true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...
so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.
So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?
Just asking for clarification.
Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...
I do consider dependency and addiction different.
I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...
I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.
I do not believe that once the "chemicals" are gone that addiction is gone. Just because one quits a substance doesn't mean that if one imbibed once again that it wouldn't rear up and become activated. I think that addiction can be dormant until the agent is reintroduced. But I may be wrong. I don't know enough about the subject to be an expert.
if you look at addictions it is the chemical in the substance that causes the addiction and once the chemical is gone the actual physical addiction is.0 -
(Edited to remove double quote)KetoneKaren wrote: »I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.
true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...
so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.
So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?
Just asking for clarification.
Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...
I do consider dependency and addiction different.
I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...
I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.
I do not believe that once the "chemicals" are gone that addiction is gone. Just because one quits a substance doesn't mean that if one imbibed once again that it wouldn't rear up and become activated. I think that addiction can be dormant until the agent is reintroduced. But I may be wrong. I don't know enough about the subject to be an expert.
if you look at addictions it is the chemical in the substance that causes the addiction and once the chemical is gone the actual physical addiction is.
The symptoms are gone not the cause or origin of the physical addiction. I interpret that your viewpoint is that addiction disappears when the substance does. I'm not sure science will back this up.4 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
I'm not sure I believe this is true of most. It doesn't seem to mesh with the number of posts asking "why can't I stop overeating" or "how do I stop binge eating" or "how do I break my addiction to sugar"
To me these sound more like issues with control of cravings than a lack of knowledge that too many calories are being consumed.
This is a very small sample tho...I do firmly believe based on my own life most don't understand calories.
If they did there wouldn't be statements of CICO doesn't work for everyone and there wouldn't be this large diet industry preying on people...
Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...
But I feel like this is going to get into "food addiction" area and I am not into that debate.
I understand now why you aren't into that debate. I didn't understand the reasons when you first posted it and wondered why. Now I know. There will never be a resolution other than "food addictions do not exist" for you.3 -
(Edited to remove double quote)KetoneKaren wrote: »I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.
true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...
so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.
So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?
Just asking for clarification.
Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...
I do consider dependency and addiction different.
I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...
I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.
I do not believe that once the "chemicals" are gone that addiction is gone. Just because one quits a substance doesn't mean that if one imbibed once again that it wouldn't rear up and become activated. I think that addiction can be dormant until the agent is reintroduced. But I may be wrong. I don't know enough about the subject to be an expert.
if you look at addictions it is the chemical in the substance that causes the addiction and once the chemical is gone the actual physical addiction is.
The symptoms are gone not the cause or origin of the physical addiction. I interpret that your viewpoint is that addiction disappears when the substance does. I'm not sure science will back this up.
I think the science does back up the physical addiction part...I never said the other part of the addiction is cured.
IE the smoker who quit and 20 years later still craves a smoke...they are no longer physically addicted to nicotine...science backs that up...but they still crave.0 -
While a simplistic approach, scoring more than the other team results in wins. There are of course other things a manager does as address issues as to why the team isn't scoring, what could be holding them back and utilizing the teams best talents to their advantage (IE speed, stamina, etc.)iamstephenolan wrote: »Looking only at CICO, would be like on looking at final scores in sports to figure out why one team does better than another one does.
How long would a coach or manager last only saying, "score more goals than the opposing team"?
IF there's a surplus.The body can turn 100 calories of sugar into more fat than with 100 calories of protein.
EPOC is highly overated. There have been several studies to back that up.Resistence training increases the calories burned during rest for hours after the training is finished.
No they don't. The most elite athletes will consume carbs in ridiculous amounts well before an event. They don't get fat because they burn then off. It doesn't turn to fat, unless fat somehow creates the visual of ripped bodies.Those two things alone pretty much invalidate pure CICO thinking.
And there are DEFINITELY lots of power lifters who are overweight who do lots of resistance training.
Which is a health condition due to hormonal issues, but CICO still applies for weight loss.And the there is metabolic syndrome.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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It's really not that complicated. It's likely due more to habitual BEHAVIOR than anything else.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »So after 11 pages, has any consensus been reached to those two questions?
This seems to be a topic that people are very polar on. If you can answer that question you could solve the overeating and obesity epidemic!
What most people who are overweight and obese want to believe is that there is another reason why they aren't normal like others. That somehow processed foods and living in the land of plenty caused it.
Countries ALL OVER THE WORLD, have processed foods. Many countries import and consume more sugar than we do. But they don't have the obesity issues the US has. Why? Well just one main reason.....................US citizens eat more than their lean counterparts in the world. That's really the answer.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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(Edited to remove double quote)KetoneKaren wrote: »I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.
true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...
so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.
So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?
Just asking for clarification.
Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...
I do consider dependency and addiction different.
I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...
I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.
I do not believe that once the "chemicals" are gone that addiction is gone. Just because one quits a substance doesn't mean that if one imbibed once again that it wouldn't rear up and become activated. I think that addiction can be dormant until the agent is reintroduced. But I may be wrong. I don't know enough about the subject to be an expert.
if you look at addictions it is the chemical in the substance that causes the addiction and once the chemical is gone the actual physical addiction is.
The symptoms are gone not the cause or origin of the physical addiction. I interpret that your viewpoint is that addiction disappears when the substance does. I'm not sure science will back this up.
Addiction can be split in two parts, a physical and a psychological part. The physical dependence is broken fairly soon after stopping taking the substance as Stef said.
The psychological part is the reason many people who quit smoking have to keep their hands and mouth occupied with other things to not crave a smoke, the habit that formed the association in their brain "something between my fingers/lips = good feelings" that was caused by the substance.2 -
"ninerbuff wrote: »"Countries ALL OVER THE WORLD, have processed foods. Many countries import and consume more sugar than we do. But they don't have the obesity issues the US has. Why? Well just one main reason.....................US citizens eat more than their lean counterparts in the world. That's really the ANSWER.
That is the question in the OP title. "WHY do people overeat? ", and saying the answer is that they overeat is redundant.5 -
I gained weight after pregnancy from eating more cause I felt weird eating less than my husband.1
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(Edited to remove double quote)KetoneKaren wrote: »I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.
true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...
so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.
So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?
Just asking for clarification.
Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...
I do consider dependency and addiction different.
I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...
I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.
I do not believe that once the "chemicals" are gone that addiction is gone. Just because one quits a substance doesn't mean that if one imbibed once again that it wouldn't rear up and become activated. I think that addiction can be dormant until the agent is reintroduced. But I may be wrong. I don't know enough about the subject to be an expert.
I agree with this. I think the physical dependency is gone, but not the addiction. But I kind of think all this is off topic anyway.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Secret Eaters is crazy. Some people are in unbelievable denial.Bill mentioned that some people find satiety by not eating certain foods. I was trying to explain this with my description of how sugar consumption and refined flour cause cravings for me soon after eating so I try to avoid them. People overreacted and said various things that I did not mean at all. I explained that I couldn't come up with a term that is stronger than craving but not as "loaded" as an addiction to sugar and white flour.
You didn't respond to my comment on this, but I think it's not uncommon that refined carbs cause cravings (especially in conjunction with fat). I really don't recall people overreacting, except obviously you have a different understanding of what "addiction" means than many of us (which is why I think it's generally not a helpful term)...
I did explain why I used that term. If anyone can come up with a more appropriate word to describe the craving for more sugar when I eat sugar please help me out. If I don't eat sugar for instance I don't start the crave, crash, crave cycle.
I made a suggestion which you did not respond to (which is, of course, your decision).
Sugar is sugar -- if you have issues with sugary treats with sugar plus fat (or carbs plus fat like Ritz) and not fruit (which is basically sugar + fiber), I don't get how it's physically sugar.
However, back to the point, I get they cause cravings in some people, as I said (although I think it's trigger foods not "sugar" or "carbs"), I get that fiber or protein is more sating for most (me too), I get that habits make certain foods hard to stop eating (the foods that we eat recreationally). No one has disagreed with Bill on these issues, which you implied they had. That's what I was questioning.
I do think the term "addiction" is wrong, and suspect other motives for its use, but I agree that it's best not to debate it in this thread.
I don't think you read along the thread far enough. I conceded that I might not have a sugar "addiction". I have no compulsion to consume it as long as I don't eat it and am not a binge eater. However, I do have a physiological response/craving afterward if i start eating sugar. And when I was eating sugar on a regular basis and stopped I had withdrawal symptoms. I do not believe everyone experiences it.
Anyhow, for you, and in order not to ruffle feathers of others who dislike the term used in the instance of food, I will not use it. I will call it "sugar sensitivity" or "craving". I had seen the term "sugar addiction" on the cover of various books and articles over the past years and had thought that it was a real phenomenon.
I'm surprised that more people can't relate. Perhaps I'm an anomaly and my experience with sugar only represents a small percentage of the population?
I don't know why you think people can't relate.
I have had issues not overeating certain foods. Sugar isn't my issue, but I think I can relate to the phenomenon.
I don't believe in real withdrawal symptoms from quitting added sugar, as it is physically the same as intrinsic sugar and other carbs once it hits the body. It just makes no sense. Psychologically, sure, although I did not experience it personally (I think I'm just not that into sugar compared to some others, although I enjoy plenty of sweet foods). Like you mentioned juice -- I rarely drink it because I hate drinking calories, but I had some before a long bike ride yesterday (with breakfast) and really enjoyed it and had a second glass. No cravings, though -- the second glass was just because I enjoyed it and was okay with the calories given my plans for the day.
I guess I'm mostly not thinking this digression on "addiction," is really relevant to the thread topic. I think the reason people overeat isn't mainly "addiction," but environment and availability plus normal human reactions to food.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Complex carbs are digested more slowly, thus keeping your blood sugar more stable and keeping you satisfied longer. Say, a sweet potato. Refined carbs such as white flour and sugar are quickly digested and have a high glycemic index. You eat that without a protein and soon, you're hungry again, craving more. And the palatability increases the effect. This is a thing that a lot of people out there in general don't actually know. When doctors are counseling patients on weight control and blood sugar control, it should be explained. I think the general population currently knows more about which fats are healthier than they know about their carb choices.
Flour is still a complex carb, all starches are.
Thank you Steven. Complex, yet refined if white, unrefined if whole wheat? See here is another thing my doc didn't tell me! I'm still working on collecting information. I can find glycemic index easily enough but for some of the other info I have to really dig. A lot of resources are oversimplified.
So with fructose being a simple carb, is this the explanation for apples leaving people hungry again so soon after eating them?1 -
Some people are hungry after fruit, some are not. Satiety is really individual. I find fruit of all kinds quite filling. (And yes, it's a simple carb. Simple vs. complex carb is a useless category.)1
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lemurcat12 wrote: »
I don't know why you think people can't relate.
I have had issues not overeating certain foods. Sugar isn't my issue, but I think I can relate to the phenomenon.
I think (and I might be wrong) that the part DebSozo is talking about that people don't seem to relate to is the phenomenon of the cravings being insatiable. (Not being dramatic, or even saying the cravings are irresistible or stronger than those of others; I'm using the word literally here. The cravings are not sated by any degree of consumption)
I get the impression that most people (at least on MFP) find that a serving of the thing they crave makes the craving stop, given that eating treats in moderation is common advice and seems to work for many. They may have some temporary issues not overeating when the food is in front of them, but presumably people wouldn't give the advice to pre-log and have a bit of it if it didn't help the cravings (or at least not make them worse).
Literally no amount of hyper palatable foods will make my cravings stop. They get stronger the more I eat. It's not just that I really like them and want more (although obviously that's part of it). I feel a mental tension like I have to have them before I can settle down and feel comfortable again. I have a very hard time eating any other foods (to be fair, I'm not a huge fan of eating at the best of times, but it's noticeably worse for a couple of days after eating rich meals and desserts). I get intrusive thoughts and can't focus on other things. Eating more only relieves this for the time it takes to actually eat, and then I'm immediately thinking about how to get more. I can usually resist the cravings at least to the degree that I am not binge eating or overeating constantly, but they can't be satisfied.
I know that there are no addictive substances in food, and it's the stimulation of the rich combinations that causes the cravings, but I found that for me the only way I've successfully been able to stop the compulsive desire for these foods is to treat them as I would treat a behavioural addiction and avoid them entirely.lemurcat12 wrote: »
I guess I'm mostly not thinking this digression on "addiction," is really relevant to the thread topic. I think the reason people overeat isn't mainly "addiction," but environment and availability plus normal human reactions to food.
I actually think this topic is quite relevant to the OP, because if people do react to foods differently from a psychological perspective, it could explain why some people have more trouble losing weight - it isn't that it's physically impossible for them, it's that the conventional techniques of portion control and moderation will not work to bring their cravings under control.
6 -
I would say that it could be 2 or 3 parts. Not all addictions carry a physical dependency. However, they do trigger a physiological response which can be abnormal in the addict. Other part is psychological as described earlier.stevencloser wrote: »(Edited to remove double quote)KetoneKaren wrote: »I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.
true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...
so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.
So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?
Just asking for clarification.
Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...
I do consider dependency and addiction different.
I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...
I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.
I do not believe that once the "chemicals" are gone that addiction is gone. Just because one quits a substance doesn't mean that if one imbibed once again that it wouldn't rear up and become activated. I think that addiction can be dormant until the agent is reintroduced. But I may be wrong. I don't know enough about the subject to be an expert.
if you look at addictions it is the chemical in the substance that causes the addiction and once the chemical is gone the actual physical addiction is.
The symptoms are gone not the cause or origin of the physical addiction. I interpret that your viewpoint is that addiction disappears when the substance does. I'm not sure science will back this up.
Addiction can be split in two parts, a physical and a psychological part. The physical dependence is broken fairly soon after stopping taking the substance as Stef said.
The psychological part is the reason many people who quit smoking have to keep their hands and mouth occupied with other things to not crave a smoke, the habit that formed the association in their brain "something between my fingers/lips = good feelings" that was caused by the substance.
Keep in mind that my definitions for dependency and addiction are reversed from stef's as that seems to be the way most who work in the field define those terms.
0 -
MakePeasNotWar wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
I guess I'm mostly not thinking this digression on "addiction," is really relevant to the thread topic. I think the reason people overeat isn't mainly "addiction," but environment and availability plus normal human reactions to food.
I actually think this topic is quite relevant to the OP, because if people do react to foods differently from a psychological perspective, it could explain why some people have more trouble losing weight - it isn't that it's physically impossible for them, it's that the conventional techniques of portion control and moderation will not work to bring their cravings under control.
I'm trying to look at this on a macro level. The differences between societies with lots of overweight and those without are environment and activity. It's unlikely to be that we have more "addicted" people.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »MakePeasNotWar wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
I guess I'm mostly not thinking this digression on "addiction," is really relevant to the thread topic. I think the reason people overeat isn't mainly "addiction," but environment and availability plus normal human reactions to food.
I actually think this topic is quite relevant to the OP, because if people do react to foods differently from a psychological perspective, it could explain why some people have more trouble losing weight - it isn't that it's physically impossible for them, it's that the conventional techniques of portion control and moderation will not work to bring their cravings under control.
I'm trying to look at this on a macro level. The differences between societies with lots of overweight and those without are environment and activity. It's unlikely to be that we have more "addicted" people.
We are in the clear. (Yaay)0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Secret Eaters is crazy. Some people are in unbelievable denial.Bill mentioned that some people find satiety by not eating certain foods. I was trying to explain this with my description of how sugar consumption and refined flour cause cravings for me soon after eating so I try to avoid them. People overreacted and said various things that I did not mean at all. I explained that I couldn't come up with a term that is stronger than craving but not as "loaded" as an addiction to sugar and white flour.
You didn't respond to my comment on this, but I think it's not uncommon that refined carbs cause cravings (especially in conjunction with fat). I really don't recall people overreacting, except obviously you have a different understanding of what "addiction" means than many of us (which is why I think it's generally not a helpful term)...
I did explain why I used that term. If anyone can come up with a more appropriate word to describe the craving for more sugar when I eat sugar please help me out. If I don't eat sugar for instance I don't start the crave, crash, crave cycle.
I made a suggestion which you did not respond to (which is, of course, your decision).
Sugar is sugar -- if you have issues with sugary treats with sugar plus fat (or carbs plus fat like Ritz) and not fruit (which is basically sugar + fiber), I don't get how it's physically sugar.
However, back to the point, I get they cause cravings in some people, as I said (although I think it's trigger foods not "sugar" or "carbs"), I get that fiber or protein is more sating for most (me too), I get that habits make certain foods hard to stop eating (the foods that we eat recreationally). No one has disagreed with Bill on these issues, which you implied they had. That's what I was questioning.
I do think the term "addiction" is wrong, and suspect other motives for its use, but I agree that it's best not to debate it in this thread.
I don't think you read along the thread far enough. I conceded that I might not have a sugar "addiction". I have no compulsion to consume it as long as I don't eat it and am not a binge eater. However, I do have a physiological response/craving afterward if i start eating sugar. And when I was eating sugar on a regular basis and stopped I had withdrawal symptoms. I do not believe everyone experiences it.
Anyhow, for you, and in order not to ruffle feathers of others who dislike the term used in the instance of food, I will not use it. I will call it "sugar sensitivity" or "craving". I had seen the term "sugar addiction" on the cover of various books and articles over the past years and had thought that it was a real phenomenon.
I'm surprised that more people can't relate. Perhaps I'm an anomaly and my experience with sugar only represents a small percentage of the population?
I don't know why you think people can't relate.
I have had issues not overeating certain foods. Sugar isn't my issue, but I think I can relate to the phenomenon.
I don't believe in real withdrawal symptoms from quitting added sugar, as it is physically the same as intrinsic sugar and other carbs once it hits the body. It just makes no sense. Psychologically, sure, although I did not experience it personally (I think I'm just not that into sugar compared to some others, although I enjoy plenty of sweet foods). Like you mentioned juice -- I rarely drink it because I hate drinking calories, but I had some before a long bike ride yesterday (with breakfast) and really enjoyed it and had a second glass. No cravings, though -- the second glass was just because I enjoyed it and was okay with the calories given my plans for the day.
I guess I'm mostly not thinking this digression on "addiction," is really relevant to the thread topic. I think the reason people overeat isn't mainly "addiction," but environment and availability plus normal human reactions to food.
No worries if it doesn't pertain to you.2 -
MakePeasNotWar wrote: »MakePeasNotWar wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Secret Eaters is crazy. Some people are in unbelievable denial.Bill mentioned that some people find satiety by not eating certain foods. I was trying to explain this with my description of how sugar consumption and refined flour cause cravings for me soon after eating so I try to avoid them. People overreacted and said various things that I did not mean at all. I explained that I couldn't come up with a term that is stronger than craving but not as "loaded" as an addiction to sugar and white flour.
You didn't respond to my comment on this, but I think it's not uncommon that refined carbs cause cravings (especially in conjunction with fat). I really don't recall people overreacting, except obviously you have a different understanding of what "addiction" means than many of us (which is why I think it's generally not a helpful term)...
I did explain why I used that term. If anyone can come up with a more appropriate word to describe the craving for more sugar when I eat sugar please help me out. If I don't eat sugar for instance I don't start the crave, crash, crave cycle.
why does it have to be stronger than Crave...so what if it was said we all get cravings...we do.
I crave salt some days like no one's business...I crave beef and I have to eat it (I assume my iron is getting low)...or that's all I think about.
Cravings are real and valid...so what is wrong with that term?
Nothing. There's nothing wrong with the word addiction either. Addiction is a real and valid word also. They are just words. I think that you mentioned that in your opinion you don't believe people can become addicted to certain foods. I disagree because I am addicted to sugar, IMO. I don't understand all the touchiness regarding this subject. If someone told me that they are addicted to cigarettes, then I wouldn't say I don't believe people really can get addicted to them and tell them to call it "craving cigarettes" instead. I think you have an idea that an addiction has to be uncontrollable and at the point of destroying lives which isn't so.
Totally up to you...if you want to run around these boards saying you are an addict go ahead...
I said I don't believe that people can be addicted to food...esp those who say carb or sugar...why because those people give up certain types of carbs but eat others or give up one type of sugar but eat other types...as I suspect you still have milk and fruit in your diet.
and as an ex smoker yes it was a craving for that smoke...a physical dependency on something is different than being an addict. And since the advent of E cigs they have done studies on the addictive properties of nicotine and found that it was difficult to get mice addicted to just nicotine...it's more of a mental/emotional thing that smokers get into...habits when they smoke etc....because if it was the actual cigarette they were addicted to...there would be no cravings after the chemicals were out of the body but there are.
dependency, habit forming, cravings but not addiction.
Am I reading this right? Does this say cigarettes aren't addictive?
No they are addictive but not in the same sense that most believe. And it is not always the nicotine that brings a smoker back. Nicotine is out of your body in 72 hours after you stop smoking so the question remains what makes an ex smoker go back? Habits mainly emotional and mental. I use an ecig still with no nicotine...to prevent me from going back...
That may be your experience, but it isn't an accurate depiction of smoking addiction. Obviously habit plays a role, but it's the effect of nicotine and monoamine oxidase inhibitors on neurotransmitter function that make smoking addictive (in those for whom it is; there will always be those who aren't as susceptible.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2928221/
A smoking habit and cigarette addiction are not the same thing.
Addicts usually go back because they believe they can have just one cigarette (or smoke for a short time) and then stop again, but once the acetylcholine receptors are saturated, the compulsion returns full force.
It is accurate actually if you look at the stats of people using ecigs to get to 0 nicotine and stop using the ecigs they go back to smoking where as those who continue with the ecigs don't start smoking again.
I've smoked for over 20 years and quit numerous times and this is the longest I've quit and don't expect to return to smoking ever but who knows
It wasn't my intention to disparage e-cigarettes, and I apologize if I gave that impression.
My point was that the habit aspect is only one issue in cigarette addiction, and that there are biological forces behind nicotine/tobacco addiction.
Congrats on quitting btw. I'm at just over 3 years, after 24 years of smoking. What helps me stay quit is realizing that I can't have just one cigarette. It's zero, or I'm right back to where I started. I've been down that road too many times.
no I didn't read it like that at all..
I've just have just seen so many people and talked to so many ex smokers who have cravings even after 20 years of no smoking...so it's not the physical addiction that does it...
it's something else and I think that we can equate this sort of thing to those who crave certain foods so much...
I see. I completely agree that it can be primarily habit-driven in some ex smokers.
Personally, I stopped having cravings after a period of a few months, which also happens to be the approximate amount of time it takes for nicotinic acetylcholine receptor upregulation to resolve. I rarely think about smoking, and although I may think "a cigarette would be nice" once in a blue moon when I am out at night or having a cup of coffee, it's a fleeting thought, and I don't actually have a strong or persistent desire to smoke. I quit cold turkey and have never felt the urge to use an e-cigarette or any other surrogate, because without nicotine in it, I never saw the point. My previous attempt were similar; I relapsed not due to cravings but because I underestimated the affect of a single cigarette or a short period of smoking to try to cope with a stressful situation. Even though I wasn't experiencing cravings, I thought the nicotine would help me cope, or simply wanted to enjoy "social smoking". Each time this led to a full return of cravings in a very short period.
Once again it comes down to the fact that not everyone reacts the same to a given stimulus, psychologically or physiologically.7
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