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Why do people overeat and/or become obese? Is it harder than average for some to lose weight?

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Replies

  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
    So after 11 pages, has any consensus been reached to those two questions?
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    So after 11 pages, has any consensus been reached to those two questions?

    This seems to be a topic that people are very polar on. If you can answer that question you could solve the overeating and obesity epidemic!
  • KetoneKaren
    KetoneKaren Posts: 6,412 Member
    Ha! @EvgeniZyntx Good question. I would like to add that the combination of fat and carb like in french fries or potato chips is an "excitogen" for me so I either stay away or weigh them & eat them after pre-logging them which for some reason works for me. I woke up this morning thinking about this ongoing debate involving semantics. There certainly is something having to to with the pleasure centers of the brain that drives some of us to think about and crave certain foods, and it worsens or becomes more intense if we eat them so that we want them more.

    In treating trauma victims, some of the experts talk about PTSD with a big T, like vets who have experienced horrible war tragedies, and PtSD with a little t, like someone whose mother died at a young age unexpectedly and it resulted in startling awake at night and fear of social situations or something that they never get over. It's a similar dilemma. What do you call the lesser condition? It's still real, it has some similarities to the big T condition, and yet it doesn't really fit all the criteria. I think it gets debated so much because we don't have the right terminology. Craving, Hankering, Jonesing, Appetence, Ravenousness, Obsession, Sweet Tooth...Greed, Gluttony...none of these work that well, although I use Craving, Obsession, Sweet Tooth, and Food Thinking. This could be fun...any other terms people want to throw in?
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    edited June 2016


    I recently read about this interesting Harvard study that discusses macros.

    http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/06/when-a-calorie-is-not-just-a-calorie/
  • moe0303
    moe0303 Posts: 934 Member
    So after 11 pages, has any consensus been reached to those two questions?
    Channeling my best Jim Mora:
    “ What’s that? Ah — Consensus? Don’t talk about — Consensus? You kidding me? Consensus? I just hope we can agree on a damned word! "
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    edited June 2016
    moe0303 wrote: »
    So after 11 pages, has any consensus been reached to those two questions?
    Channeling my best Jim Mora:
    “ What’s that? Ah — Consensus? Don’t talk about — Consensus? You kidding me? Consensus? I just hope we can agree on a damned word! "

    If I looked out my window and said, "The sky is blue today where I am" people on here would debate it and say, "No, that can't be. It is raining/cloudy/foggy here. " Another person would say, "You can't call it blue because at sunrise and sunset it has orange and pink." Or in another time zone, "It is still dark outside." This can go on and on.
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,267 Member
    moe0303 wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
    My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
    A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
    My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
    Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.

    true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...

    so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.

    So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?

    Just asking for clarification.

    Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...

    I do consider dependency and addiction different.

    I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...

    I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.

  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,267 Member
    moe0303 wrote: »
    So after 11 pages, has any consensus been reached to those two questions?
    Channeling my best Jim Mora:
    “ What’s that? Ah — Consensus? Don’t talk about — Consensus? You kidding me? Consensus? I just hope we can agree on a damned word! "

    if you can answer the two questions as mentioned before you will be rich.

    I think it's different for everyone.

    There are 4 main reasons I see, and people may have more than one reason and some may not even be food related...where food is used a comfort.

    I mentioned them back a ways.

  • moe0303
    moe0303 Posts: 934 Member
    edited June 2016
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
    My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
    A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
    My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
    Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.

    true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...

    so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.

    So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?

    Just asking for clarification.

    Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...

    I do consider dependency and addiction different.

    I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...

    I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.

    I see. That is opposite of the conventional use of the term "dependency". Perhaps that is the root of our disagreement on addiction.

    ETA: I pretty much agree with everything elseelse.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    edited June 2016
    (Edited to remove double quote)
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
    My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
    A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
    My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
    Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.

    true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...

    so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.

    So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?

    Just asking for clarification.

    Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...

    I do consider dependency and addiction different.

    I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...

    I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.

    I do not believe that once the "chemicals" are gone that addiction is gone. Just because one quits a substance doesn't mean that if one imbibed once again that it wouldn't rear up and become activated. I think that addiction can be dormant until the agent is reintroduced. But I may be wrong. I don't know enough about the subject to be an expert.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    I don't know if there is a right answer. One thing I've learned through my own struggle and research is that your body craves nutrients. When it feels as though it is lacking one, it demands more. When you have had what is required, you become full. That is why eating one chicken breast and steamed veggies will fill you up quicker and for a longer time period than indulging in an entire bag of chips. Doesn't mean it tastes better though, haha! CICO does work. It's scientifically proven and no one can argue that. I think that many people are totally unaware of how effective it is. And yes, you can eat "healthy foods" all you want. It is easy to even over-eat what's deemed as "healthy" as well. Those uneducated on CICO don't understand that. Or maybe they even don't WANT to understand.

    see I beg to differ because I eat the healthier foods, I love veggies etc, WHAT I CRAVE is the complete opposite, i CRAVE the ice cream, the salty chips and other so called non-healthy food.

    This is true for me also. What I crave adds very little nutrients and plenty of extra calories. That's why I can cut ice cream and cookies (mostly) out of my diet and not suffer from a deficiency.
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,267 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    (Edited to remove double quote)
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
    My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
    A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
    My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
    Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.

    true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...

    so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.

    So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?

    Just asking for clarification.

    Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...

    I do consider dependency and addiction different.

    I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...

    I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.

    I do not believe that once the "chemicals" are gone that addiction is gone. Just because one quits a substance doesn't mean that if one imbibed once again that it wouldn't rear up and become activated. I think that addiction can be dormant until the agent is reintroduced. But I may be wrong. I don't know enough about the subject to be an expert.

    if you look at addictions it is the chemical in the substance that causes the addiction and once the chemical is gone the actual physical addiction is.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    (Edited to remove double quote)
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
    My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
    A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
    My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
    Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.

    true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...

    so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.

    So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?

    Just asking for clarification.

    Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...

    I do consider dependency and addiction different.

    I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...

    I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.

    I do not believe that once the "chemicals" are gone that addiction is gone. Just because one quits a substance doesn't mean that if one imbibed once again that it wouldn't rear up and become activated. I think that addiction can be dormant until the agent is reintroduced. But I may be wrong. I don't know enough about the subject to be an expert.

    if you look at addictions it is the chemical in the substance that causes the addiction and once the chemical is gone the actual physical addiction is.

    The symptoms are gone not the cause or origin of the physical addiction. I interpret that your viewpoint is that addiction disappears when the substance does. I'm not sure science will back this up.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:

    In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.

    The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.

    The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.

    Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.

    I don't believe this for one second.

    Lack of education.

    That's fine.

    Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?

    I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.

    I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.

    And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...

    I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.

    diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...

    and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????

    So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?

    No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.

    I'm not sure I believe this is true of most. It doesn't seem to mesh with the number of posts asking "why can't I stop overeating" or "how do I stop binge eating" or "how do I break my addiction to sugar"

    To me these sound more like issues with control of cravings than a lack of knowledge that too many calories are being consumed.

    This is a very small sample tho...I do firmly believe based on my own life most don't understand calories.

    If they did there wouldn't be statements of CICO doesn't work for everyone and there wouldn't be this large diet industry preying on people...

    Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...

    But I feel like this is going to get into "food addiction" area and I am not into that debate.

    I understand now why you aren't into that debate. I didn't understand the reasons when you first posted it and wondered why. Now I know. There will never be a resolution other than "food addictions do not exist" for you.
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,267 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    (Edited to remove double quote)
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
    My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
    A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
    My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
    Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.

    true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...

    so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.

    So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?

    Just asking for clarification.

    Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...

    I do consider dependency and addiction different.

    I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...

    I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.

    I do not believe that once the "chemicals" are gone that addiction is gone. Just because one quits a substance doesn't mean that if one imbibed once again that it wouldn't rear up and become activated. I think that addiction can be dormant until the agent is reintroduced. But I may be wrong. I don't know enough about the subject to be an expert.

    if you look at addictions it is the chemical in the substance that causes the addiction and once the chemical is gone the actual physical addiction is.

    The symptoms are gone not the cause or origin of the physical addiction. I interpret that your viewpoint is that addiction disappears when the substance does. I'm not sure science will back this up.

    I think the science does back up the physical addiction part...I never said the other part of the addiction is cured.

    IE the smoker who quit and 20 years later still craves a smoke...they are no longer physically addicted to nicotine...science backs that up...but they still crave.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,971 Member
    Looking only at CICO, would be like on looking at final scores in sports to figure out why one team does better than another one does.
    How long would a coach or manager last only saying, "score more goals than the opposing team"?
    While a simplistic approach, scoring more than the other team results in wins. There are of course other things a manager does as address issues as to why the team isn't scoring, what could be holding them back and utilizing the teams best talents to their advantage (IE speed, stamina, etc.)
    The body can turn 100 calories of sugar into more fat than with 100 calories of protein.
    IF there's a surplus.
    Resistence training increases the calories burned during rest for hours after the training is finished.
    EPOC is highly overated. There have been several studies to back that up.
    Those two things alone pretty much invalidate pure CICO thinking.
    No they don't. The most elite athletes will consume carbs in ridiculous amounts well before an event. They don't get fat because they burn then off. It doesn't turn to fat, unless fat somehow creates the visual of ripped bodies.
    And there are DEFINITELY lots of power lifters who are overweight who do lots of resistance training.
    And the there is metabolic syndrome.
    Which is a health condition due to hormonal issues, but CICO still applies for weight loss.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,971 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    So after 11 pages, has any consensus been reached to those two questions?

    This seems to be a topic that people are very polar on. If you can answer that question you could solve the overeating and obesity epidemic!
    It's really not that complicated. It's likely due more to habitual BEHAVIOR than anything else.
    What most people who are overweight and obese want to believe is that there is another reason why they aren't normal like others. That somehow processed foods and living in the land of plenty caused it.
    Countries ALL OVER THE WORLD, have processed foods. Many countries import and consume more sugar than we do. But they don't have the obesity issues the US has. Why? Well just one main reason.....................US citizens eat more than their lean counterparts in the world. That's really the answer.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    (Edited to remove double quote)
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
    My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
    A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
    My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
    Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.

    true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...

    so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.

    So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?

    Just asking for clarification.

    Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...

    I do consider dependency and addiction different.

    I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...

    I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.

    I do not believe that once the "chemicals" are gone that addiction is gone. Just because one quits a substance doesn't mean that if one imbibed once again that it wouldn't rear up and become activated. I think that addiction can be dormant until the agent is reintroduced. But I may be wrong. I don't know enough about the subject to be an expert.

    if you look at addictions it is the chemical in the substance that causes the addiction and once the chemical is gone the actual physical addiction is.

    The symptoms are gone not the cause or origin of the physical addiction. I interpret that your viewpoint is that addiction disappears when the substance does. I'm not sure science will back this up.

    Addiction can be split in two parts, a physical and a psychological part. The physical dependence is broken fairly soon after stopping taking the substance as Stef said.
    The psychological part is the reason many people who quit smoking have to keep their hands and mouth occupied with other things to not crave a smoke, the habit that formed the association in their brain "something between my fingers/lips = good feelings" that was caused by the substance.
  • jaedizzle01
    jaedizzle01 Posts: 775 Member
    I gained weight after pregnancy from eating more cause I felt weird eating less than my husband.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    (Edited to remove double quote)
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
    My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
    A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
    My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
    Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.

    true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...

    so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.

    So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?

    Just asking for clarification.

    Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...

    I do consider dependency and addiction different.

    I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...

    I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.

    I do not believe that once the "chemicals" are gone that addiction is gone. Just because one quits a substance doesn't mean that if one imbibed once again that it wouldn't rear up and become activated. I think that addiction can be dormant until the agent is reintroduced. But I may be wrong. I don't know enough about the subject to be an expert.

    I agree with this. I think the physical dependency is gone, but not the addiction. But I kind of think all this is off topic anyway.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    Secret Eaters is crazy. Some people are in unbelievable denial.
    DebSozo wrote: »
    Bill mentioned that some people find satiety by not eating certain foods. I was trying to explain this with my description of how sugar consumption and refined flour cause cravings for me soon after eating so I try to avoid them. People overreacted and said various things that I did not mean at all. I explained that I couldn't come up with a term that is stronger than craving but not as "loaded" as an addiction to sugar and white flour.

    You didn't respond to my comment on this, but I think it's not uncommon that refined carbs cause cravings (especially in conjunction with fat). I really don't recall people overreacting, except obviously you have a different understanding of what "addiction" means than many of us (which is why I think it's generally not a helpful term)...

    I did explain why I used that term. If anyone can come up with a more appropriate word to describe the craving for more sugar when I eat sugar please help me out. If I don't eat sugar for instance I don't start the crave, crash, crave cycle.

    I made a suggestion which you did not respond to (which is, of course, your decision).

    Sugar is sugar -- if you have issues with sugary treats with sugar plus fat (or carbs plus fat like Ritz) and not fruit (which is basically sugar + fiber), I don't get how it's physically sugar.

    However, back to the point, I get they cause cravings in some people, as I said (although I think it's trigger foods not "sugar" or "carbs"), I get that fiber or protein is more sating for most (me too), I get that habits make certain foods hard to stop eating (the foods that we eat recreationally). No one has disagreed with Bill on these issues, which you implied they had. That's what I was questioning.

    I do think the term "addiction" is wrong, and suspect other motives for its use, but I agree that it's best not to debate it in this thread.

    I don't think you read along the thread far enough. I conceded that I might not have a sugar "addiction". I have no compulsion to consume it as long as I don't eat it and am not a binge eater. However, I do have a physiological response/craving afterward if i start eating sugar. And when I was eating sugar on a regular basis and stopped I had withdrawal symptoms. I do not believe everyone experiences it.

    Anyhow, for you, and in order not to ruffle feathers of others who dislike the term used in the instance of food, I will not use it. I will call it "sugar sensitivity" or "craving". I had seen the term "sugar addiction" on the cover of various books and articles over the past years and had thought that it was a real phenomenon.

    I'm surprised that more people can't relate. Perhaps I'm an anomaly and my experience with sugar only represents a small percentage of the population?

    I don't know why you think people can't relate.

    I have had issues not overeating certain foods. Sugar isn't my issue, but I think I can relate to the phenomenon.

    I don't believe in real withdrawal symptoms from quitting added sugar, as it is physically the same as intrinsic sugar and other carbs once it hits the body. It just makes no sense. Psychologically, sure, although I did not experience it personally (I think I'm just not that into sugar compared to some others, although I enjoy plenty of sweet foods). Like you mentioned juice -- I rarely drink it because I hate drinking calories, but I had some before a long bike ride yesterday (with breakfast) and really enjoyed it and had a second glass. No cravings, though -- the second glass was just because I enjoyed it and was okay with the calories given my plans for the day.

    I guess I'm mostly not thinking this digression on "addiction," is really relevant to the thread topic. I think the reason people overeat isn't mainly "addiction," but environment and availability plus normal human reactions to food.
  • gothchiq
    gothchiq Posts: 4,590 Member
    edited June 2016
    gothchiq wrote: »
    Complex carbs are digested more slowly, thus keeping your blood sugar more stable and keeping you satisfied longer. Say, a sweet potato. Refined carbs such as white flour and sugar are quickly digested and have a high glycemic index. You eat that without a protein and soon, you're hungry again, craving more. And the palatability increases the effect. This is a thing that a lot of people out there in general don't actually know. When doctors are counseling patients on weight control and blood sugar control, it should be explained. I think the general population currently knows more about which fats are healthier than they know about their carb choices.

    Flour is still a complex carb, all starches are.

    Thank you Steven. Complex, yet refined if white, unrefined if whole wheat? See here is another thing my doc didn't tell me! I'm still working on collecting information. I can find glycemic index easily enough but for some of the other info I have to really dig. A lot of resources are oversimplified.

    So with fructose being a simple carb, is this the explanation for apples leaving people hungry again so soon after eating them?
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    edited June 2016
    Some people are hungry after fruit, some are not. Satiety is really individual. I find fruit of all kinds quite filling. (And yes, it's a simple carb. Simple vs. complex carb is a useless category.)
  • moe0303
    moe0303 Posts: 934 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    (Edited to remove double quote)
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    I smoked for a time in my youth but never craved a cigarette & didn't look back when I decided to stop smoking.
    My son had to take heavy duty pain medicines after a serious accident and as his pain lessened, he tapered off & really did not have any problem discontinuing the medicine even though he took high doses for several weeks.
    A friend used hydrocodone once and craved it from that day forward and almost lost his job twice over using. It made him feel brave & euphoric. Most people feel tired & foggy on hydrocodone.
    My dad never did completely give up cigarettes, my mom put them down and never wanted another.
    Our brains, reward centers, biochemical makeups, whatever, are certainly not all the same.

    true that...what's funny with me is as a former "addict" and giving up something (just speaking about cigs here) the though of having one now makes me want to vomit...any other time I had quit...I craved them at certain times...like getting into a car to drive..with coffee...with a beer and so I eventually started again...

    so given this I can concede that people can react differently to certain types of food due to brain chemistry...but I still won't agree that it's addiction...and if they can find a healthy substitute (like I did) for that food perhaps they could lose the weight.

    So were you addicted to cigarettes or not? Am I understanding you correctly that you consider dependency and addiction as two separate things, but you think that people can become dependent on certain foods but not addicted to them? That would be a new perspective to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it if so. Also, you don't believe cigarettes lead to dependence, is that correct?

    Just asking for clarification.

    Yes I was addicted to cigarettes...I believe once the chemicals are gone from your body after you quit that there are habits that still remain that will cause a form of dependency...smokers smoke during stressful times a lot...or with morning coffee and even after not smoking for 20 years (if there isn't something else taking it's place) people crave a smoke...

    I do consider dependency and addiction different.

    I think that the way people react to foods physically can be different than others...

    I think that sometimes with things like food there are habits that are formed and a dependency based on how it makes us feel...food used as comfort will be palatable...probably high in fat and calories...it won't be a salad.

    I do not believe that once the "chemicals" are gone that addiction is gone. Just because one quits a substance doesn't mean that if one imbibed once again that it wouldn't rear up and become activated. I think that addiction can be dormant until the agent is reintroduced. But I may be wrong. I don't know enough about the subject to be an expert.

    if you look at addictions it is the chemical in the substance that causes the addiction and once the chemical is gone the actual physical addiction is.

    The symptoms are gone not the cause or origin of the physical addiction. I interpret that your viewpoint is that addiction disappears when the substance does. I'm not sure science will back this up.

    Addiction can be split in two parts, a physical and a psychological part. The physical dependence is broken fairly soon after stopping taking the substance as Stef said.
    The psychological part is the reason many people who quit smoking have to keep their hands and mouth occupied with other things to not crave a smoke, the habit that formed the association in their brain "something between my fingers/lips = good feelings" that was caused by the substance.
    I would say that it could be 2 or 3 parts. Not all addictions carry a physical dependency. However, they do trigger a physiological response which can be abnormal in the addict. Other part is psychological as described earlier.

    Keep in mind that my definitions for dependency and addiction are reversed from stef's as that seems to be the way most who work in the field define those terms.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »

    I guess I'm mostly not thinking this digression on "addiction," is really relevant to the thread topic. I think the reason people overeat isn't mainly "addiction," but environment and availability plus normal human reactions to food.

    I actually think this topic is quite relevant to the OP, because if people do react to foods differently from a psychological perspective, it could explain why some people have more trouble losing weight - it isn't that it's physically impossible for them, it's that the conventional techniques of portion control and moderation will not work to bring their cravings under control.

    I'm trying to look at this on a macro level. The differences between societies with lots of overweight and those without are environment and activity. It's unlikely to be that we have more "addicted" people.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    edited June 2016
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »

    I guess I'm mostly not thinking this digression on "addiction," is really relevant to the thread topic. I think the reason people overeat isn't mainly "addiction," but environment and availability plus normal human reactions to food.

    I actually think this topic is quite relevant to the OP, because if people do react to foods differently from a psychological perspective, it could explain why some people have more trouble losing weight - it isn't that it's physically impossible for them, it's that the conventional techniques of portion control and moderation will not work to bring their cravings under control.

    I'm trying to look at this on a macro level. The differences between societies with lots of overweight and those without are environment and activity. It's unlikely to be that we have more "addicted" people.

    We are in the clear. (Yaay)
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    Secret Eaters is crazy. Some people are in unbelievable denial.
    DebSozo wrote: »
    Bill mentioned that some people find satiety by not eating certain foods. I was trying to explain this with my description of how sugar consumption and refined flour cause cravings for me soon after eating so I try to avoid them. People overreacted and said various things that I did not mean at all. I explained that I couldn't come up with a term that is stronger than craving but not as "loaded" as an addiction to sugar and white flour.

    You didn't respond to my comment on this, but I think it's not uncommon that refined carbs cause cravings (especially in conjunction with fat). I really don't recall people overreacting, except obviously you have a different understanding of what "addiction" means than many of us (which is why I think it's generally not a helpful term)...

    I did explain why I used that term. If anyone can come up with a more appropriate word to describe the craving for more sugar when I eat sugar please help me out. If I don't eat sugar for instance I don't start the crave, crash, crave cycle.

    I made a suggestion which you did not respond to (which is, of course, your decision).

    Sugar is sugar -- if you have issues with sugary treats with sugar plus fat (or carbs plus fat like Ritz) and not fruit (which is basically sugar + fiber), I don't get how it's physically sugar.

    However, back to the point, I get they cause cravings in some people, as I said (although I think it's trigger foods not "sugar" or "carbs"), I get that fiber or protein is more sating for most (me too), I get that habits make certain foods hard to stop eating (the foods that we eat recreationally). No one has disagreed with Bill on these issues, which you implied they had. That's what I was questioning.

    I do think the term "addiction" is wrong, and suspect other motives for its use, but I agree that it's best not to debate it in this thread.

    I don't think you read along the thread far enough. I conceded that I might not have a sugar "addiction". I have no compulsion to consume it as long as I don't eat it and am not a binge eater. However, I do have a physiological response/craving afterward if i start eating sugar. And when I was eating sugar on a regular basis and stopped I had withdrawal symptoms. I do not believe everyone experiences it.

    Anyhow, for you, and in order not to ruffle feathers of others who dislike the term used in the instance of food, I will not use it. I will call it "sugar sensitivity" or "craving". I had seen the term "sugar addiction" on the cover of various books and articles over the past years and had thought that it was a real phenomenon.

    I'm surprised that more people can't relate. Perhaps I'm an anomaly and my experience with sugar only represents a small percentage of the population?

    I don't know why you think people can't relate.

    I have had issues not overeating certain foods. Sugar isn't my issue, but I think I can relate to the phenomenon.

    I don't believe in real withdrawal symptoms from quitting added sugar, as it is physically the same as intrinsic sugar and other carbs once it hits the body. It just makes no sense. Psychologically, sure, although I did not experience it personally (I think I'm just not that into sugar compared to some others, although I enjoy plenty of sweet foods). Like you mentioned juice -- I rarely drink it because I hate drinking calories, but I had some before a long bike ride yesterday (with breakfast) and really enjoyed it and had a second glass. No cravings, though -- the second glass was just because I enjoyed it and was okay with the calories given my plans for the day.

    I guess I'm mostly not thinking this digression on "addiction," is really relevant to the thread topic. I think the reason people overeat isn't mainly "addiction," but environment and availability plus normal human reactions to food.

    No worries if it doesn't pertain to you.