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Why do people overeat and/or become obese? Is it harder than average for some to lose weight?
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Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I really don't find it particularly surprising that people overeat and gain weight, and I certainly don't think it's contrary to CICO in any way. Nor do I think it makes "put down the fork" bad advice, although I know it can be challenging for lots of reasons.
We evolved in circumstances in which not having enough food was an issue and surplus food was not, and where we were required to be active. Throughout human history (until quite recently) activity was necessary and scarcity was the main concern, and on top of that all cultures had customs and rituals that regulated eating in some way (similar to how other basic urges, like sex, are regulated by culture). It was beneficial for humans, also, to be able to eat when food was available and go without when not, such that we can adapt to not eating/eating little for a period of time (periods of scarcity) and eat more than we need immediately when food is available. As a result, the assumption by some that a healthy human won't eat more than maintenance naturally is questionable -- why would we have evolved to prevent something that was not an issue? It's amazing how out bodies adapt to keep an equilibrium as is.
So given all that, put us in a situation of abundance, with food around at all times that we don't even have to prepare ourselves if we don't want to, a culture that says "eat whenever you feel like it, and for pure pleasure, not for hunger or according to overarching culture," I think it's completely unsurprising that many people overeat and gain weight. It's normal for humans to feel desire to eat tasty and available food when it is present and therefore in the mind. Not everyone feels that way, but that it's common, not surprising.
Add to this that many humans are bad with short term vs. long term tradeoffs -- yeah, overeating will keep you fat and eating less will allow for lost weight, but that will take a long time and it's easy to think one day or one meal won't matter and keep repeating that. And that's even before taking into account how easy it is to use any form of pleasure in a distorted or misplaced way, the power of habit, cultural associations with food (reminds me of a happy occasion or some such), and before worrying about actual messed up relationships with food and weight (which I think often feed into a cycle).
A human with a healthy appetite won't eat more than the body needs though even with abundant, delicious food available.
I'm not sure I am following your argument, but reality disproves this -- a majority of people do when food is abundant and cheap, as currently.
Overfeeding studies involve people who are not overweight, but you can't claim only those people are "healthy."I believe our mores around food evolved to protect the appetite - not to prevent overeating per se. Feasting, eating until full, "making room" for dessert are the exact opposite of not overeating and they were all part of a healthy eating pattern.
I don't think they evolved to avoid overeating (as that was not much of a problem until recently except among a small subset), but they operated to do so. One reason I didn't gain weight or think much about food between meals when growing up -- no matter what I ate -- was that you ate at mealtime. Even after I gained weight I took a trip to Nicaragua where we were doing lots of physical activity and busy all day and had no opportunities to eat except at regular meals (which were high carb/low protein compared to how I ate back home). I never thought about food, again, except at meals and ate smaller portions than at home (eating with other people when fat does this sometimes), and wasn't hungry at all. I think it was that food just wasn't available otherwise.If you truly overeat at one meal you naturally eat less at another and it all balances out. Providing you have a normal appetite.
Again, this is contrary to reality, as a majority of people seem to eat above maintenance sufficiently to become overweight.
My argument is simply that eating to the point of obesity is not normal or natural in those with a healthy, normal appetite regardless of the food environment.
How are you defining "normal and natural"? If a majority of people do it, it seems to be normal and natural, IMO.
That would be common to my mind, not normal. In other words, working as intended.
But there is no "intended" here. In many ways, eating food when it's available is a product of evolution, in all likelihood, and either useful or neutral in the conditions that prevailed for most of human history, so that a majority seem to do it easily if they don't take precautions against it is hardly surprising.
If a majority of people do it and they are generally otherwise healthy, how is that not normal?
Fact is that it is a majority only in few countries (like the U.S.) while elsewhere it seems the "normal" appetite doesn't lead the majority of people to overeat.
I have heard that certain foods are obesogenic. I've read that rice is not one which is why obesity is less prevalent in Asian countries for example. Interesting thought.
Unless you mean "are easier to overeat than other foods" with obesogenic, no.0 -
sashayoung72 wrote: »mommarnurse wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
I'm not sure I believe this is true of most. It doesn't seem to mesh with the number of posts asking "why can't I stop overeating" or "how do I stop binge eating" or "how do I break my addiction to sugar"
To me these sound more like issues with control of cravings than a lack of knowledge that too many calories are being consumed.
This is a very small sample tho...I do firmly believe based on my own life most don't understand calories.
If they did there wouldn't be statements of CICO doesn't work for everyone and there wouldn't be this large diet industry preying on people...
Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...
But I feel like this is going to get into "food addiction" area and I am not into that debate.
What does it truly mean if not; determining the calories of current intake and eating less than that; or determining caloric output and eating less than that?
to lose weight it truly means taking in less calories than you burn
to maintain weight it truly means that you are eating the same as what you are burning.
If your current intake is making you gain 1lb a week...eating 50 calories less a day won't work...but you know that
Ok, I'm still trying to fully understand what you meant by "Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...". So for the sake of clarification, you are saying that they miscalculate their caloric needs or the number of calories they should cut from their diet? In other words, you are saying they know they need to eat fewer calories, but don't know how much fewer?
sort of...
People know that to lose weight they need to eat (for arguments sake) 1200 calories and that means to them 1lb a week. *I know this as a friend is on MFP and this is her life....
They log 1200 calories and really believe they ate 1200 calories.
They exercise and log 500 calories for 45mins of treadmill walking at 3.5 mph because that's what the treadmill says.
In reality they are eating 1600 a day and burning maybe 300..(I am being generous)
They lose 1/2 a week or maybe none because they really ate 1800 for a few days.
They ask "why am I not losing weight"...
They really believe that they are eating 1200 calories and exercising that much and feel they are one of those "that can't lose weight" or "it's the kinds of calories" or "it's because I ate after 7pm" or "because I didn't drink my hot lemon water this morning to rev my metabolism"
No concept of what 1200 calories looks like or how hard it is to exercise off 500 calories walking...
See for me I can tell you what 30gram of marble cheddar looks like and that fact it has 120 calories...or how much 180 grams of mix frozen tropical fruit looks like...I got cha...150 grams of chicken I know but if I am not familiar with the food I would need my food scale to know the weight to get the calories...
Ok, but this is somewhat different than what the thread seemed to be about....I suspect they're trying to say that, for them, either Calories In is harder to limit or that Calories Out is harder to achieve than for the average person...
...Why are they eating so much? What drives the desire and need to consume extra calories than needed?...
If you have been able to build a skill set which allows you to be able to eyeball what 30g of marble cheddar looks like, what makes you think others who have struggled for years haven't been able to develop the same skills? Surely many of them have and still struggle nonetheless. What drives overeating in people who know better? I'm talking about people who:
- know energy balance (CICO)
- Know a pound of fat is about 3500 calories
- know that exercise estimations are inaccurate
- know that measuring by volume is not always precise
- weigh everything that they eat
- have sustainable food plans
- know that forbidding foods could lead to greater temptation
- know that attempting to moderate could lead to greater temptation
- know that micro nutrients are important for body composition
- know that protein intake is recommended at .8-1g per pound of lean body mass
- know that certain food types are more satisfying for different people
- know that certain diets work because they make it easier for some to manipulate energy balance
- you get my point...
There are many who know all of this yet fail regardless. Why?
This interests me too and I've seen some comments on other threads that tell me there are a few people here who might say that this describes them. I would love to hear from them.
A friend of mine has been obese probably her entire life. As far as I can tell, she seems to know all of the above yet still struggles with her weight. It's something that I can never ask her about because it's none of my business and I would never want to risk hurting her feelings, but I know she's not the only one in her shoes and I hope someone can shed some light on what it might be like for her.
Because they aren't willing to change. I know this isn't the best analogy - but surely crack addicts know crack is bad? Surely that guy with diabetes who's repeatedly admitted to the hospital knows he shouldn't be chugging soda and what not? Knowledge isn't the first step in change, acknowledgement is. You can look in the mirror and say "hey, I'm fat" but you're not acknowledging that your own choices and lifestyle are the reason. And even if you do, you're not necessarily willing to step out of your comfort zone and make a change. That requires a very high , sustained level of emotional energy. You're settling for your lifestyle. Deep down, you don't believe that you deserve better.
People have had similar outlooks on alcoholics for decades (or mellenia), but now it is widely accepted to not be so cut and dry.
well if you want to go down the road of addiction fine I will say these couple of points on it.
1. I have yet to see someone derail their entire life aka lose their job, home, family because they do "stupid" and/or illegal acts for food.
2. Applying the logic of addiction to food doesn't even seem logical...we need food to survive so addicts have to stay away from their "drug" per say otherwise....
3. Addicts go through massive amounts of pain physical/mental when they give up their drug and to equate this to it after seeing an addict get off their "drug" is a slap in the fact to their battle.
and lastly
Addicts get treatment and stop if they so choose to...so barring all of the above if they are "addicts" then they can choose to get treatment and stop right??? so why don't they do that?
They understand the logic behind weight loss and just need to apply it to their life but don't because of a choice???
ACTUALLY on point one, there are people that lose their jobs because they become too obese to work at that job, sometimes it's side effects of the weight like high blood pressure. Also husbands and wives have left because they don't love them anymore.... Worse case they die from obesity side effects so slow suicide or OVERDOSE so to speak.
on your point 3. it is painful to let go of the things you can't have to lose the weight, maybe you are lucky and didn't have to do that but some do. And this is worse than drugs because you face it EVERY SINGLE *KITTEN* DAY!!! There is no GOING OFF THE DRUG when it comes to food.
And just like alcohol, most can take it or leave it so some DON't understand why someone else has a hard time and is addicted.
There are similarities yes ie hiding food, perhaps losing the job or a spouse or even die from side effects but that still does not mean food addiction is real....
still doesn't make it an addiction....why because I've seen people like that get WLS and lose the weight and keep it off.
and I have yet to see a "food" addict do illegal acts to get food or leave their family because food was more important...yes maybe their family leaves them...
no physical pain or withdrawal when you go on a diet....have you seen an addict give up a drug like alcohol or crack? seriously.
but again if this is an addiction and it's known to be an addiction and they have education and are smart why not get treatment? or as mentioned above what about people who have issues with food like BED and still manage to lose weight and maintain?1 -
It goes way back to being raised by someone who force fed me. The natural regulatory mechanism was thus destroyed during my formative years. As if that wasn't bad enough, said person was also an absolutely terrible cook. So once I got out on my own, there was no template for normal portions, the satiety mechanism had been obliterated, and I also finally had access to things that tasted good. Recipe for disaster. It's amazing that my high weight was "only" 160 rather than, say, 500. Both medical reasons and vanity forced me to hit the brakes on that mess. So now it's all terribly disordered. X(4
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Some excellent points. I guess we all have to look deep inside to see what our own issues are. The obesity crisis is a combination of many factors.
I am now 150lbs @ 5'7" with a BMI of 23.5 because of MFP & my willingness to change my habits.
For me CICO worked & logging my food & understanding portion sizes was the ticket for me.
My number one issue was I had a food addiction to cheese. After work while making dinner I would pull out a block of cheese & a bottle of wine & consume large amounts of each. This caused my weight to go up with the excessive amounts of sugar & fat. My overall cholesterol level also became dangerously high.
I was lucky that I realized I had an issue & the look on my Doctors face when we went over my blood work scared the hell out of me.
My last blood work shows I am now in the normal range & in a normal BMI level.
I think like most personal issues you must admit you have a problem & you can choose to ignore it or do something about it....
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mskessler89 wrote: »On different threads I've seen people saying that weight loss is more complex than CICO. I don't think they all mean that CICO doesn't work (though a few do); I suspect they're trying to say that, for them, either Calories In is harder to limit or that Calories Out is harder to achieve than for the average person.
Addressing this in particular: there are two "CICO doesn't work for me" groups. One group treats "CICO" as a name for counting calories, and what they really mean is "I had to find another strategy because counting calories alone didn't work." Then there's the group that truly believes they're somehow defying thermodynamics.
For the first group, there's a lot of reasons. They didn't adjust their macros for satiety, so they were hungry all the time and ended up overeating. They're emotional eaters and kept blowing out their calorie goal because they didn't address the root of their issue. They have trigger foods but didn't alter their environment or diet to make avoiding triggers easier. They tried to eat too "clean" and ended up binging on foods they missed. They tried to cut too many calories and binged because they were so hungry.
For the second group, there's always one side of the equation that's not being tallied correctly. They swear they're only eating 1200 calories, but their estimation of CI is terrible. They overestimate their exercise burn or activity level. A medical condition is making TDEE much lower than a calculator spits out. They try a fad like South Beach, paleo, etc. without really understanding it's the calories, not the food type.
What both groups, and anyone who's tried to lose weight and failed, can have in common is the feeling that you're doing everything right, or trying so hard to do everything right, and it's just not working. Since it's not working, you must have a harder time than everyone else when it comes to losing weight. You're an outlier. There must be a reason you're staying fat. It's really, really difficult to put so much effort into something and fail, so people rationalize it to make themselves feel better. "Put down the fork" can seem insensitive or hollow - they tried putting down the fork and still didn't lose (because their strategy was wrong or knowledge was lacking).
This is an awesome observation. I do know that we can't defy thermodynamics. My body is less efficient burning off the same amount of calories than it used to be. My weight gain happened slowly over time. I have adjusted my caloric intake and have lost weight.
I do know that food types for me make a difference in my being able to eat less CI and suffer less. I am much hungrier on a high carb diet and am less stressed and happier with higher macro percentages of fat and protein. Some people can lose weight on a carb dense diet. But I would be so miserable I would feel like I was starving.
The sensation that I get is that I am literally starving. This does not make a bit of sense because in my head I know that I will not starve for a long, long time even if I had no food. What I discovered is that I can ride out the cravings . The "starving" craving sensation goes away after about 45 minutes to an hour. But it is horrible. I don't get that "hunger/stress" physiological response when I adust my macros, eat low glycemic foods, and keep overall daily carb percentage lower. So that leads me to do what works for me.4 -
okay so lets for debates sake say that part of the reason for the obesity epidemic is as follows
some are addicted to food
some have issues other than food addiction aka depression or use food as a comfort mechanism
some lack the knowledge
some just like food
and out of those 4 things which is most common?
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okay so lets for debates sake say that part of the reason for the obesity epidemic is as follows
some are addicted to food
***some have issues other than food addiction aka depression or use food as a comfort mechanism
some lack the knowledge
some just like food
and out of those 4 things which is most common?
***"Some have [underlying] issues other than food addiction"
would get my vote2 -
I learned recently in my weight class that there is substantial evidence that many of us crave salt, sweet, fatty, carb foods. There is a brain chemical reaction of our bodies to want, physiologically, fats, sweets, and so on. It is more than the serotonin release from the carbs, it is a compulsion. I was fascinated by this information, since sometimes the vicious cycle seems to never end. I will say, though, since I started on my current program, when using only program foods, I was not craving sugar, carbs, or fats, and have reduced my salt intake substantially. However, when I started reintroducing regular foods back into my diet, it is soooooo hard to resist. I think it is more than CICO.3
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It goes way back to being raised by someone who force fed me. The natural regulatory mechanism was thus destroyed during my formative years. As if that wasn't bad enough, said person was also an absolutely terrible cook. So once I got out on my own, there was no template for normal portions, the satiety mechanism had been obliterated, and I also finally had access to things that tasted good. Recipe for disaster. It's amazing that my high weight was "only" 160 rather than, say, 500. Both medical reasons and vanity forced me to hit the brakes on that mess. So now it's all terribly disordered. X(
I think overriding the hunger mechanism as children does impact increased portion levels. " Eat everything on your plate" is not good advice. Stop eating when you are full is better. However, I have seen a lot of posts from people saying that there is no feeling of "full" EVER for them. That is part of why some people can overeat.4 -
sashayoung72 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
It's actually pretty simple. Your pants get too tight, you are getting fatter. Oh, better back off on the eating and/or exercise more
That's what stretch pants are for!!! Those suckers can go up and down 3 or 4 sizes either way.
Those things should be outlawed as enablers.8 -
sashayoung72 wrote: »mommarnurse wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
I'm not sure I believe this is true of most. It doesn't seem to mesh with the number of posts asking "why can't I stop overeating" or "how do I stop binge eating" or "how do I break my addiction to sugar"
To me these sound more like issues with control of cravings than a lack of knowledge that too many calories are being consumed.
This is a very small sample tho...I do firmly believe based on my own life most don't understand calories.
If they did there wouldn't be statements of CICO doesn't work for everyone and there wouldn't be this large diet industry preying on people...
Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...
But I feel like this is going to get into "food addiction" area and I am not into that debate.
What does it truly mean if not; determining the calories of current intake and eating less than that; or determining caloric output and eating less than that?
to lose weight it truly means taking in less calories than you burn
to maintain weight it truly means that you are eating the same as what you are burning.
If your current intake is making you gain 1lb a week...eating 50 calories less a day won't work...but you know that
Ok, I'm still trying to fully understand what you meant by "Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...". So for the sake of clarification, you are saying that they miscalculate their caloric needs or the number of calories they should cut from their diet? In other words, you are saying they know they need to eat fewer calories, but don't know how much fewer?
sort of...
People know that to lose weight they need to eat (for arguments sake) 1200 calories and that means to them 1lb a week. *I know this as a friend is on MFP and this is her life....
They log 1200 calories and really believe they ate 1200 calories.
They exercise and log 500 calories for 45mins of treadmill walking at 3.5 mph because that's what the treadmill says.
In reality they are eating 1600 a day and burning maybe 300..(I am being generous)
They lose 1/2 a week or maybe none because they really ate 1800 for a few days.
They ask "why am I not losing weight"...
They really believe that they are eating 1200 calories and exercising that much and feel they are one of those "that can't lose weight" or "it's the kinds of calories" or "it's because I ate after 7pm" or "because I didn't drink my hot lemon water this morning to rev my metabolism"
No concept of what 1200 calories looks like or how hard it is to exercise off 500 calories walking...
See for me I can tell you what 30gram of marble cheddar looks like and that fact it has 120 calories...or how much 180 grams of mix frozen tropical fruit looks like...I got cha...150 grams of chicken I know but if I am not familiar with the food I would need my food scale to know the weight to get the calories...
Ok, but this is somewhat different than what the thread seemed to be about....I suspect they're trying to say that, for them, either Calories In is harder to limit or that Calories Out is harder to achieve than for the average person...
...Why are they eating so much? What drives the desire and need to consume extra calories than needed?...
If you have been able to build a skill set which allows you to be able to eyeball what 30g of marble cheddar looks like, what makes you think others who have struggled for years haven't been able to develop the same skills? Surely many of them have and still struggle nonetheless. What drives overeating in people who know better? I'm talking about people who:
- know energy balance (CICO)
- Know a pound of fat is about 3500 calories
- know that exercise estimations are inaccurate
- know that measuring by volume is not always precise
- weigh everything that they eat
- have sustainable food plans
- know that forbidding foods could lead to greater temptation
- know that attempting to moderate could lead to greater temptation
- know that micro nutrients are important for body composition
- know that protein intake is recommended at .8-1g per pound of lean body mass
- know that certain food types are more satisfying for different people
- know that certain diets work because they make it easier for some to manipulate energy balance
- you get my point...
There are many who know all of this yet fail regardless. Why?
This interests me too and I've seen some comments on other threads that tell me there are a few people here who might say that this describes them. I would love to hear from them.
A friend of mine has been obese probably her entire life. As far as I can tell, she seems to know all of the above yet still struggles with her weight. It's something that I can never ask her about because it's none of my business and I would never want to risk hurting her feelings, but I know she's not the only one in her shoes and I hope someone can shed some light on what it might be like for her.
Because they aren't willing to change. I know this isn't the best analogy - but surely crack addicts know crack is bad? Surely that guy with diabetes who's repeatedly admitted to the hospital knows he shouldn't be chugging soda and what not? Knowledge isn't the first step in change, acknowledgement is. You can look in the mirror and say "hey, I'm fat" but you're not acknowledging that your own choices and lifestyle are the reason. And even if you do, you're not necessarily willing to step out of your comfort zone and make a change. That requires a very high , sustained level of emotional energy. You're settling for your lifestyle. Deep down, you don't believe that you deserve better.
People have had similar outlooks on alcoholics for decades (or mellenia), but now it is widely accepted to not be so cut and dry.
well if you want to go down the road of addiction fine I will say these couple of points on it.
1. I have yet to see someone derail their entire life aka lose their job, home, family because they do "stupid" and/or illegal acts for food.
2. Applying the logic of addiction to food doesn't even seem logical...we need food to survive so addicts have to stay away from their "drug" per say otherwise....
3. Addicts go through massive amounts of pain physical/mental when they give up their drug and to equate this to it after seeing an addict get off their "drug" is a slap in the fact to their battle.
and lastly
Addicts get treatment and stop if they so choose to...so barring all of the above if they are "addicts" then they can choose to get treatment and stop right??? so why don't they do that?
They understand the logic behind weight loss and just need to apply it to their life but don't because of a choice???
ACTUALLY on point one, there are people that lose their jobs because they become too obese to work at that job, sometimes it's side effects of the weight like high blood pressure. Also husbands and wives have left because they don't love them anymore.... Worse case they die from obesity side effects so slow suicide or OVERDOSE so to speak.
on your point 3. it is painful to let go of the things you can't have to lose the weight, maybe you are lucky and didn't have to do that but some do. And this is worse than drugs because you face it EVERY SINGLE *KITTEN* DAY!!! There is no GOING OFF THE DRUG when it comes to food.
And just like alcohol, most can take it or leave it so some DON't understand why someone else has a hard time and is addicted.
There are similarities yes ie hiding food, perhaps losing the job or a spouse or even die from side effects but that still does not mean food addiction is real....
still doesn't make it an addiction....why because I've seen people like that get WLS and lose the weight and keep it off.
and I have yet to see a "food" addict do illegal acts to get food or leave their family because food was more important...yes maybe their family leaves them...
no physical pain or withdrawal when you go on a diet....have you seen an addict give up a drug like alcohol or crack? seriously.
but again if this is an addiction and it's known to be an addiction and they have education and are smart why not get treatment? or as mentioned above what about people who have issues with food like BED and still manage to lose weight and maintain?
I do have a carb addiction. But thankfully I figured that out and eat complex carbs/low glycemic index food, and avoid sugar and simple carbs. It changed my life. I actually had carb withdrawal symptoms for a week when I initially abruptly dropped them down.3 -
mommarnurse wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
I'm not sure I believe this is true of most. It doesn't seem to mesh with the number of posts asking "why can't I stop overeating" or "how do I stop binge eating" or "how do I break my addiction to sugar"
To me these sound more like issues with control of cravings than a lack of knowledge that too many calories are being consumed.
This is a very small sample tho...I do firmly believe based on my own life most don't understand calories.
If they did there wouldn't be statements of CICO doesn't work for everyone and there wouldn't be this large diet industry preying on people...
Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...
But I feel like this is going to get into "food addiction" area and I am not into that debate.
What does it truly mean if not; determining the calories of current intake and eating less than that; or determining caloric output and eating less than that?
to lose weight it truly means taking in less calories than you burn
to maintain weight it truly means that you are eating the same as what you are burning.
If your current intake is making you gain 1lb a week...eating 50 calories less a day won't work...but you know that
Ok, I'm still trying to fully understand what you meant by "Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...". So for the sake of clarification, you are saying that they miscalculate their caloric needs or the number of calories they should cut from their diet? In other words, you are saying they know they need to eat fewer calories, but don't know how much fewer?
sort of...
People know that to lose weight they need to eat (for arguments sake) 1200 calories and that means to them 1lb a week. *I know this as a friend is on MFP and this is her life....
They log 1200 calories and really believe they ate 1200 calories.
They exercise and log 500 calories for 45mins of treadmill walking at 3.5 mph because that's what the treadmill says.
In reality they are eating 1600 a day and burning maybe 300..(I am being generous)
They lose 1/2 a week or maybe none because they really ate 1800 for a few days.
They ask "why am I not losing weight"...
They really believe that they are eating 1200 calories and exercising that much and feel they are one of those "that can't lose weight" or "it's the kinds of calories" or "it's because I ate after 7pm" or "because I didn't drink my hot lemon water this morning to rev my metabolism"
No concept of what 1200 calories looks like or how hard it is to exercise off 500 calories walking...
See for me I can tell you what 30gram of marble cheddar looks like and that fact it has 120 calories...or how much 180 grams of mix frozen tropical fruit looks like...I got cha...150 grams of chicken I know but if I am not familiar with the food I would need my food scale to know the weight to get the calories...
Ok, but this is somewhat different than what the thread seemed to be about....I suspect they're trying to say that, for them, either Calories In is harder to limit or that Calories Out is harder to achieve than for the average person...
...Why are they eating so much? What drives the desire and need to consume extra calories than needed?...
If you have been able to build a skill set which allows you to be able to eyeball what 30g of marble cheddar looks like, what makes you think others who have struggled for years haven't been able to develop the same skills? Surely many of them have and still struggle nonetheless. What drives overeating in people who know better? I'm talking about people who:
- know energy balance (CICO)
- Know a pound of fat is about 3500 calories
- know that exercise estimations are inaccurate
- know that measuring by volume is not always precise
- weigh everything that they eat
- have sustainable food plans
- know that forbidding foods could lead to greater temptation
- know that attempting to moderate could lead to greater temptation
- know that micro nutrients are important for body composition
- know that protein intake is recommended at .8-1g per pound of lean body mass
- know that certain food types are more satisfying for different people
- know that certain diets work because they make it easier for some to manipulate energy balance
- you get my point...
There are many who know all of this yet fail regardless. Why?
This interests me too and I've seen some comments on other threads that tell me there are a few people here who might say that this describes them. I would love to hear from them.
A friend of mine has been obese probably her entire life. As far as I can tell, she seems to know all of the above yet still struggles with her weight. It's something that I can never ask her about because it's none of my business and I would never want to risk hurting her feelings, but I know she's not the only one in her shoes and I hope someone can shed some light on what it might be like for her.
Because they aren't willing to change. I know this isn't the best analogy - but surely crack addicts know crack is bad? Surely that guy with diabetes who's repeatedly admitted to the hospital knows he shouldn't be chugging soda and what not? Knowledge isn't the first step in change, acknowledgement is. You can look in the mirror and say "hey, I'm fat" but you're not acknowledging that your own choices and lifestyle are the reason. And even if you do, you're not necessarily willing to step out of your comfort zone and make a change. That requires a very high , sustained level of emotional energy. You're settling for your lifestyle. Deep down, you don't believe that you deserve better.
People have had similar outlooks on alcoholics for decades (or mellenia), but now it is widely accepted to not be so cut and dry.
well if you want to go down the road of addiction fine I will say these couple of points on it.
1. I have yet to see someone derail their entire life aka lose their job, home, family because they do "stupid" and/or illegal acts for food.
2. Applying the logic of addiction to food doesn't even seem logical...we need food to survive so addicts have to stay away from their "drug" per say otherwise....
3. Addicts go through massive amounts of pain physical/mental when they give up their drug and to equate this to it after seeing an addict get off their "drug" is a slap in the fact to their battle.
and lastly
Addicts get treatment and stop if they so choose to...so barring all of the above if they are "addicts" then they can choose to get treatment and stop right??? so why don't they do that?
They understand the logic behind weight loss and just need to apply it to their life but don't because of a choice???
1. I know a number of people who have lost their jobs due to weight issues caused by overeating. I almost lost my job because of it.
2. We do not need to overeat in order to survive.
3. You are describing dependency which is not a requirement for addiction.
4. Many do. (In fact, that is what I advocate as evident by a previous post on this thread.) Many others are caught up by listening to people who have no idea about their situation telling them they just need to eat less and move more or get "educated".
Call it what you want. It doesn't have to be an "addiction", but the problem is similar and so is the solution.
Some quick definitions gathered from wiki:
• addiction – a medical condition characterized by compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli despite adverse consequences
• addictive behavior – a behavior that is both rewarding and reinforcing
• addictive drug – a drug that is both rewarding and reinforcing
• dependence – an adaptive state associated with a withdrawal syndrome upon cessation of repeated exposure to a stimulus (e.g., drug intake)13 -
The same reason why many alcoholics and drug addicts don't get treatment. Again, many people with food issues do get treatment. Of course there is a certain stigma to overcome with food addiction which other addiction programs have already overcome.mommarnurse wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
I'm not sure I believe this is true of most. It doesn't seem to mesh with the number of posts asking "why can't I stop overeating" or "how do I stop binge eating" or "how do I break my addiction to sugar"
To me these sound more like issues with control of cravings than a lack of knowledge that too many calories are being consumed.
This is a very small sample tho...I do firmly believe based on my own life most don't understand calories.
If they did there wouldn't be statements of CICO doesn't work for everyone and there wouldn't be this large diet industry preying on people...
Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...
But I feel like this is going to get into "food addiction" area and I am not into that debate.
What does it truly mean if not; determining the calories of current intake and eating less than that; or determining caloric output and eating less than that?
to lose weight it truly means taking in less calories than you burn
to maintain weight it truly means that you are eating the same as what you are burning.
If your current intake is making you gain 1lb a week...eating 50 calories less a day won't work...but you know that
Ok, I'm still trying to fully understand what you meant by "Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...". So for the sake of clarification, you are saying that they miscalculate their caloric needs or the number of calories they should cut from their diet? In other words, you are saying they know they need to eat fewer calories, but don't know how much fewer?
sort of...
People know that to lose weight they need to eat (for arguments sake) 1200 calories and that means to them 1lb a week. *I know this as a friend is on MFP and this is her life....
They log 1200 calories and really believe they ate 1200 calories.
They exercise and log 500 calories for 45mins of treadmill walking at 3.5 mph because that's what the treadmill says.
In reality they are eating 1600 a day and burning maybe 300..(I am being generous)
They lose 1/2 a week or maybe none because they really ate 1800 for a few days.
They ask "why am I not losing weight"...
They really believe that they are eating 1200 calories and exercising that much and feel they are one of those "that can't lose weight" or "it's the kinds of calories" or "it's because I ate after 7pm" or "because I didn't drink my hot lemon water this morning to rev my metabolism"
No concept of what 1200 calories looks like or how hard it is to exercise off 500 calories walking...
See for me I can tell you what 30gram of marble cheddar looks like and that fact it has 120 calories...or how much 180 grams of mix frozen tropical fruit looks like...I got cha...150 grams of chicken I know but if I am not familiar with the food I would need my food scale to know the weight to get the calories...
Ok, but this is somewhat different than what the thread seemed to be about....I suspect they're trying to say that, for them, either Calories In is harder to limit or that Calories Out is harder to achieve than for the average person...
...Why are they eating so much? What drives the desire and need to consume extra calories than needed?...
If you have been able to build a skill set which allows you to be able to eyeball what 30g of marble cheddar looks like, what makes you think others who have struggled for years haven't been able to develop the same skills? Surely many of them have and still struggle nonetheless. What drives overeating in people who know better? I'm talking about people who:
- know energy balance (CICO)
- Know a pound of fat is about 3500 calories
- know that exercise estimations are inaccurate
- know that measuring by volume is not always precise
- weigh everything that they eat
- have sustainable food plans
- know that forbidding foods could lead to greater temptation
- know that attempting to moderate could lead to greater temptation
- know that micro nutrients are important for body composition
- know that protein intake is recommended at .8-1g per pound of lean body mass
- know that certain food types are more satisfying for different people
- know that certain diets work because they make it easier for some to manipulate energy balance
- you get my point...
There are many who know all of this yet fail regardless. Why?
This interests me too and I've seen some comments on other threads that tell me there are a few people here who might say that this describes them. I would love to hear from them.
A friend of mine has been obese probably her entire life. As far as I can tell, she seems to know all of the above yet still struggles with her weight. It's something that I can never ask her about because it's none of my business and I would never want to risk hurting her feelings, but I know she's not the only one in her shoes and I hope someone can shed some light on what it might be like for her.
Because they aren't willing to change. I know this isn't the best analogy - but surely crack addicts know crack is bad? Surely that guy with diabetes who's repeatedly admitted to the hospital knows he shouldn't be chugging soda and what not? Knowledge isn't the first step in change, acknowledgement is. You can look in the mirror and say "hey, I'm fat" but you're not acknowledging that your own choices and lifestyle are the reason. And even if you do, you're not necessarily willing to step out of your comfort zone and make a change. That requires a very high , sustained level of emotional energy. You're settling for your lifestyle. Deep down, you don't believe that you deserve better.
People have had similar outlooks on alcoholics for decades (or mellenia), but now it is widely accepted to not be so cut and dry.
as I mentioned previous for the sake of "debate". Alcoholics can get treatment and stop drinking...and lots never touch it again. Same with other drugs...
So these people who feel they are food addicts need to get in treatment and get help but don't...explain why not...ETA: there is a post back a page or 2 where a woman admits to still having a food binge about once a week but yet she has managed to lose the weight...and maintain the weight loss for 2 years...by applying CICO to her life and allowing for the binge and saving calories and or reducing them later.
So by the logic of issues with food or addiction you can still apply the knowledge, lose the weight and maintain it....
True, but many eventually succumb to those issues and eventually gain some or all of the weight back. This exact situation was also presented on this thread by another user but has since been removed. Also, not everybody that has a problem with food is overweight. The same way that there are functioning alcoholics. Sometimes this is due to compensating measures, but it is not always necessarily healthy.
6 -
mskessler89 wrote: »On different threads I've seen people saying that weight loss is more complex than CICO. I don't think they all mean that CICO doesn't work (though a few do); I suspect they're trying to say that, for them, either Calories In is harder to limit or that Calories Out is harder to achieve than for the average person.
Addressing this in particular: there are two "CICO doesn't work for me" groups. One group treats "CICO" as a name for counting calories, and what they really mean is "I had to find another strategy because counting calories alone didn't work." Then there's the group that truly believes they're somehow defying thermodynamics.
For the first group, there's a lot of reasons. They didn't adjust their macros for satiety, so they were hungry all the time and ended up overeating. They're emotional eaters and kept blowing out their calorie goal because they didn't address the root of their issue. They have trigger foods but didn't alter their environment or diet to make avoiding triggers easier. They tried to eat too "clean" and ended up binging on foods they missed. They tried to cut too many calories and binged because they were so hungry.
For the second group, there's always one side of the equation that's not being tallied correctly. They swear they're only eating 1200 calories, but their estimation of CI is terrible. They overestimate their exercise burn or activity level. A medical condition is making TDEE much lower than a calculator spits out. They try a fad like South Beach, paleo, etc. without really understanding it's the calories, not the food type.
What both groups, and anyone who's tried to lose weight and failed, can have in common is the feeling that you're doing everything right, or trying so hard to do everything right, and it's just not working. Since it's not working, you must have a harder time than everyone else when it comes to losing weight. You're an outlier. There must be a reason you're staying fat. It's really, really difficult to put so much effort into something and fail, so people rationalize it to make themselves feel better. "Put down the fork" can seem insensitive or hollow - they tried putting down the fork and still didn't lose (because their strategy was wrong or knowledge was lacking).
This is an awesome observation. I do know that we can't defy thermodynamics. My body is less efficient burning off the same amount of calories than it used to be. My weight gain happened slowly over time. I have adjusted my caloric intake and have lost weight.
I do know that food types for me make a difference in my being able to eat less CI and suffer less. I am much hungrier on a high carb diet and am less stressed and happier with higher macro percentages of fat and protein. Some people can lose weight on a carb dense diet. But I would be so miserable I would feel like I was starving.
The sensation that I get is that I am literally starving. This does not make a bit of sense because in my head I know that I will not starve for a long, long time even if I had no food. What I discovered is that I can ride out the cravings . The "starving" craving sensation goes away after about 45 minutes to an hour. But it is horrible. I don't get that "hunger/stress" physiological response when I adust my macros, eat low glycemic foods, and keep overall daily carb percentage lower. So that leads me to do what works for me.
If you're burning less calories for the same thing you've become more efficient, not less.0 -
sashayoung72 wrote: »mommarnurse wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
I'm not sure I believe this is true of most. It doesn't seem to mesh with the number of posts asking "why can't I stop overeating" or "how do I stop binge eating" or "how do I break my addiction to sugar"
To me these sound more like issues with control of cravings than a lack of knowledge that too many calories are being consumed.
This is a very small sample tho...I do firmly believe based on my own life most don't understand calories.
If they did there wouldn't be statements of CICO doesn't work for everyone and there wouldn't be this large diet industry preying on people...
Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...
But I feel like this is going to get into "food addiction" area and I am not into that debate.
What does it truly mean if not; determining the calories of current intake and eating less than that; or determining caloric output and eating less than that?
to lose weight it truly means taking in less calories than you burn
to maintain weight it truly means that you are eating the same as what you are burning.
If your current intake is making you gain 1lb a week...eating 50 calories less a day won't work...but you know that
Ok, I'm still trying to fully understand what you meant by "Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...". So for the sake of clarification, you are saying that they miscalculate their caloric needs or the number of calories they should cut from their diet? In other words, you are saying they know they need to eat fewer calories, but don't know how much fewer?
sort of...
People know that to lose weight they need to eat (for arguments sake) 1200 calories and that means to them 1lb a week. *I know this as a friend is on MFP and this is her life....
They log 1200 calories and really believe they ate 1200 calories.
They exercise and log 500 calories for 45mins of treadmill walking at 3.5 mph because that's what the treadmill says.
In reality they are eating 1600 a day and burning maybe 300..(I am being generous)
They lose 1/2 a week or maybe none because they really ate 1800 for a few days.
They ask "why am I not losing weight"...
They really believe that they are eating 1200 calories and exercising that much and feel they are one of those "that can't lose weight" or "it's the kinds of calories" or "it's because I ate after 7pm" or "because I didn't drink my hot lemon water this morning to rev my metabolism"
No concept of what 1200 calories looks like or how hard it is to exercise off 500 calories walking...
See for me I can tell you what 30gram of marble cheddar looks like and that fact it has 120 calories...or how much 180 grams of mix frozen tropical fruit looks like...I got cha...150 grams of chicken I know but if I am not familiar with the food I would need my food scale to know the weight to get the calories...
Ok, but this is somewhat different than what the thread seemed to be about....I suspect they're trying to say that, for them, either Calories In is harder to limit or that Calories Out is harder to achieve than for the average person...
...Why are they eating so much? What drives the desire and need to consume extra calories than needed?...
If you have been able to build a skill set which allows you to be able to eyeball what 30g of marble cheddar looks like, what makes you think others who have struggled for years haven't been able to develop the same skills? Surely many of them have and still struggle nonetheless. What drives overeating in people who know better? I'm talking about people who:
- know energy balance (CICO)
- Know a pound of fat is about 3500 calories
- know that exercise estimations are inaccurate
- know that measuring by volume is not always precise
- weigh everything that they eat
- have sustainable food plans
- know that forbidding foods could lead to greater temptation
- know that attempting to moderate could lead to greater temptation
- know that micro nutrients are important for body composition
- know that protein intake is recommended at .8-1g per pound of lean body mass
- know that certain food types are more satisfying for different people
- know that certain diets work because they make it easier for some to manipulate energy balance
- you get my point...
There are many who know all of this yet fail regardless. Why?
This interests me too and I've seen some comments on other threads that tell me there are a few people here who might say that this describes them. I would love to hear from them.
A friend of mine has been obese probably her entire life. As far as I can tell, she seems to know all of the above yet still struggles with her weight. It's something that I can never ask her about because it's none of my business and I would never want to risk hurting her feelings, but I know she's not the only one in her shoes and I hope someone can shed some light on what it might be like for her.
Because they aren't willing to change. I know this isn't the best analogy - but surely crack addicts know crack is bad? Surely that guy with diabetes who's repeatedly admitted to the hospital knows he shouldn't be chugging soda and what not? Knowledge isn't the first step in change, acknowledgement is. You can look in the mirror and say "hey, I'm fat" but you're not acknowledging that your own choices and lifestyle are the reason. And even if you do, you're not necessarily willing to step out of your comfort zone and make a change. That requires a very high , sustained level of emotional energy. You're settling for your lifestyle. Deep down, you don't believe that you deserve better.
People have had similar outlooks on alcoholics for decades (or mellenia), but now it is widely accepted to not be so cut and dry.
well if you want to go down the road of addiction fine I will say these couple of points on it.
1. I have yet to see someone derail their entire life aka lose their job, home, family because they do "stupid" and/or illegal acts for food.
2. Applying the logic of addiction to food doesn't even seem logical...we need food to survive so addicts have to stay away from their "drug" per say otherwise....
3. Addicts go through massive amounts of pain physical/mental when they give up their drug and to equate this to it after seeing an addict get off their "drug" is a slap in the fact to their battle.
and lastly
Addicts get treatment and stop if they so choose to...so barring all of the above if they are "addicts" then they can choose to get treatment and stop right??? so why don't they do that?
They understand the logic behind weight loss and just need to apply it to their life but don't because of a choice???
ACTUALLY on point one, there are people that lose their jobs because they become too obese to work at that job, sometimes it's side effects of the weight like high blood pressure. Also husbands and wives have left because they don't love them anymore.... Worse case they die from obesity side effects so slow suicide or OVERDOSE so to speak.
on your point 3. it is painful to let go of the things you can't have to lose the weight, maybe you are lucky and didn't have to do that but some do. And this is worse than drugs because you face it EVERY SINGLE *KITTEN* DAY!!! There is no GOING OFF THE DRUG when it comes to food.
And just like alcohol, most can take it or leave it so some DON't understand why someone else has a hard time and is addicted.
There are similarities yes ie hiding food, perhaps losing the job or a spouse or even die from side effects but that still does not mean food addiction is real....
still doesn't make it an addiction....why because I've seen people like that get WLS and lose the weight and keep it off.
And I have seen many, many get WLS and gain all of the weight back.
5 -
CICO is about the mechanics of weight loss. People tend to focus on those mechanics and the endless dieting variations that lead to CI<CO and attribute their success/failure to their ability to master those mechanics.
I am great at losing weight. I've done it countless times since I was a teenager looking to lose 15 pounds until I was about to turn 40 needing to lose 80 pounds. I've achieved CI<CO many different ways - exchange program, meal replacements, counting calories, focusing on cardio, focusing on lifting weights, and various fad diets. I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at reaching my goal weight.
So, why did I continue to regain? I had the knowledge and skills to lose weight and was very aware of the negative health consequences, so it wasn't additional education that I needed. Goodness knows I wanted to be at a healthy weight, so it wasn't that I was unmotivated.
Because, like many overweight and obese people, I struggled with distorted thinking. I had to work on fixing those issues before I was able to successfully maintain my weight loss. It had nothing to do with the macros I was eating or having an eating window of X hours or limiting Y food group. It had to do with me facing reality, recognizing my distorted thinking and replacing those thoughts, setting achievable goals that led to continued success, and identifying ineffective behaviors and replacing them with behaviors that were compatible with achieving my goals.
It makes me feel sad that people get caught up in the mechanics of losing weight and miss the big picture. They can't see the forest for the trees. I spent a long time in that position, and I suppose the knowledge that I gained through all of those experiences ultimately helped me to be successful.4 -
Some people (me) are "food thinkers", always thinking about what they are going to eat next, and when.
Others can get to the end of a busy day and suddenly realize they are hungry and haven't eaten (or thought about food) all day.
Food thinkers have to monitor themselves and say "no" to food a hundred times a day. Many food thinkers eat when they are not physically hungry.
People who are not food thinkers say "yes" to food 2-3 times a day, usually when they are physically hungry, and the rest of the time they don't think about it, or if they do, they do not become obsessed with the thought.
When I am totally absorbed at work on a demanding day, I am not a food thinker. I find this intriguing glimpse into what it would be like to be "normal" exhilarating. I would like to have that experience every day so I would think about food only when hungry.8 -
stevencloser wrote: »mskessler89 wrote: »On different threads I've seen people saying that weight loss is more complex than CICO. I don't think they all mean that CICO doesn't work (though a few do); I suspect they're trying to say that, for them, either Calories In is harder to limit or that Calories Out is harder to achieve than for the average person.
Addressing this in particular: there are two "CICO doesn't work for me" groups. One group treats "CICO" as a name for counting calories, and what they really mean is "I had to find another strategy because counting calories alone didn't work." Then there's the group that truly believes they're somehow defying thermodynamics.
For the first group, there's a lot of reasons. They didn't adjust their macros for satiety, so they were hungry all the time and ended up overeating. They're emotional eaters and kept blowing out their calorie goal because they didn't address the root of their issue. They have trigger foods but didn't alter their environment or diet to make avoiding triggers easier. They tried to eat too "clean" and ended up binging on foods they missed. They tried to cut too many calories and binged because they were so hungry.
For the second group, there's always one side of the equation that's not being tallied correctly. They swear they're only eating 1200 calories, but their estimation of CI is terrible. They overestimate their exercise burn or activity level. A medical condition is making TDEE much lower than a calculator spits out. They try a fad like South Beach, paleo, etc. without really understanding it's the calories, not the food type.
What both groups, and anyone who's tried to lose weight and failed, can have in common is the feeling that you're doing everything right, or trying so hard to do everything right, and it's just not working. Since it's not working, you must have a harder time than everyone else when it comes to losing weight. You're an outlier. There must be a reason you're staying fat. It's really, really difficult to put so much effort into something and fail, so people rationalize it to make themselves feel better. "Put down the fork" can seem insensitive or hollow - they tried putting down the fork and still didn't lose (because their strategy was wrong or knowledge was lacking).
This is an awesome observation. I do know that we can't defy thermodynamics. My body is less efficient burning off the same amount of calories than it used to be. My weight gain happened slowly over time. I have adjusted my caloric intake and have lost weight.
I do know that food types for me make a difference in my being able to eat less CI and suffer less. I am much hungrier on a high carb diet and am less stressed and happier with higher macro percentages of fat and protein. Some people can lose weight on a carb dense diet. But I would be so miserable I would feel like I was starving.
The sensation that I get is that I am literally starving. This does not make a bit of sense because in my head I know that I will not starve for a long, long time even if I had no food. What I discovered is that I can ride out the cravings . The "starving" craving sensation goes away after about 45 minutes to an hour. But it is horrible. I don't get that "hunger/stress" physiological response when I adust my macros, eat low glycemic foods, and keep overall daily carb percentage lower. So that leads me to do what works for me.
If you're burning less calories for the same thing you've become more efficient, not less.
Yes. Thanks. I meant less efficient at losing weight.1 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »(...)
Of course today that's all nonsense. Everyone one knows calories in, calories out is how you manage your weight. What you eat and when you eat doesn't matter.
Seriously? It doesn't matter if I eat 1500 cals of broccoli or 1500 cals of twinkies?
::flowerforyou::2 -
sashayoung72 wrote: »mommarnurse wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
I'm not sure I believe this is true of most. It doesn't seem to mesh with the number of posts asking "why can't I stop overeating" or "how do I stop binge eating" or "how do I break my addiction to sugar"
To me these sound more like issues with control of cravings than a lack of knowledge that too many calories are being consumed.
This is a very small sample tho...I do firmly believe based on my own life most don't understand calories.
If they did there wouldn't be statements of CICO doesn't work for everyone and there wouldn't be this large diet industry preying on people...
Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...
But I feel like this is going to get into "food addiction" area and I am not into that debate.
What does it truly mean if not; determining the calories of current intake and eating less than that; or determining caloric output and eating less than that?
to lose weight it truly means taking in less calories than you burn
to maintain weight it truly means that you are eating the same as what you are burning.
If your current intake is making you gain 1lb a week...eating 50 calories less a day won't work...but you know that
Ok, I'm still trying to fully understand what you meant by "Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...". So for the sake of clarification, you are saying that they miscalculate their caloric needs or the number of calories they should cut from their diet? In other words, you are saying they know they need to eat fewer calories, but don't know how much fewer?
sort of...
People know that to lose weight they need to eat (for arguments sake) 1200 calories and that means to them 1lb a week. *I know this as a friend is on MFP and this is her life....
They log 1200 calories and really believe they ate 1200 calories.
They exercise and log 500 calories for 45mins of treadmill walking at 3.5 mph because that's what the treadmill says.
In reality they are eating 1600 a day and burning maybe 300..(I am being generous)
They lose 1/2 a week or maybe none because they really ate 1800 for a few days.
They ask "why am I not losing weight"...
They really believe that they are eating 1200 calories and exercising that much and feel they are one of those "that can't lose weight" or "it's the kinds of calories" or "it's because I ate after 7pm" or "because I didn't drink my hot lemon water this morning to rev my metabolism"
No concept of what 1200 calories looks like or how hard it is to exercise off 500 calories walking...
See for me I can tell you what 30gram of marble cheddar looks like and that fact it has 120 calories...or how much 180 grams of mix frozen tropical fruit looks like...I got cha...150 grams of chicken I know but if I am not familiar with the food I would need my food scale to know the weight to get the calories...
Ok, but this is somewhat different than what the thread seemed to be about....I suspect they're trying to say that, for them, either Calories In is harder to limit or that Calories Out is harder to achieve than for the average person...
...Why are they eating so much? What drives the desire and need to consume extra calories than needed?...
If you have been able to build a skill set which allows you to be able to eyeball what 30g of marble cheddar looks like, what makes you think others who have struggled for years haven't been able to develop the same skills? Surely many of them have and still struggle nonetheless. What drives overeating in people who know better? I'm talking about people who:
- know energy balance (CICO)
- Know a pound of fat is about 3500 calories
- know that exercise estimations are inaccurate
- know that measuring by volume is not always precise
- weigh everything that they eat
- have sustainable food plans
- know that forbidding foods could lead to greater temptation
- know that attempting to moderate could lead to greater temptation
- know that micro nutrients are important for body composition
- know that protein intake is recommended at .8-1g per pound of lean body mass
- know that certain food types are more satisfying for different people
- know that certain diets work because they make it easier for some to manipulate energy balance
- you get my point...
There are many who know all of this yet fail regardless. Why?
This interests me too and I've seen some comments on other threads that tell me there are a few people here who might say that this describes them. I would love to hear from them.
A friend of mine has been obese probably her entire life. As far as I can tell, she seems to know all of the above yet still struggles with her weight. It's something that I can never ask her about because it's none of my business and I would never want to risk hurting her feelings, but I know she's not the only one in her shoes and I hope someone can shed some light on what it might be like for her.
Because they aren't willing to change. I know this isn't the best analogy - but surely crack addicts know crack is bad? Surely that guy with diabetes who's repeatedly admitted to the hospital knows he shouldn't be chugging soda and what not? Knowledge isn't the first step in change, acknowledgement is. You can look in the mirror and say "hey, I'm fat" but you're not acknowledging that your own choices and lifestyle are the reason. And even if you do, you're not necessarily willing to step out of your comfort zone and make a change. That requires a very high , sustained level of emotional energy. You're settling for your lifestyle. Deep down, you don't believe that you deserve better.
People have had similar outlooks on alcoholics for decades (or mellenia), but now it is widely accepted to not be so cut and dry.
well if you want to go down the road of addiction fine I will say these couple of points on it.
1. I have yet to see someone derail their entire life aka lose their job, home, family because they do "stupid" and/or illegal acts for food.
2. Applying the logic of addiction to food doesn't even seem logical...we need food to survive so addicts have to stay away from their "drug" per say otherwise....
3. Addicts go through massive amounts of pain physical/mental when they give up their drug and to equate this to it after seeing an addict get off their "drug" is a slap in the fact to their battle.
and lastly
Addicts get treatment and stop if they so choose to...so barring all of the above if they are "addicts" then they can choose to get treatment and stop right??? so why don't they do that?
They understand the logic behind weight loss and just need to apply it to their life but don't because of a choice???
ACTUALLY on point one, there are people that lose their jobs because they become too obese to work at that job, sometimes it's side effects of the weight like high blood pressure. Also husbands and wives have left because they don't love them anymore.... Worse case they die from obesity side effects so slow suicide or OVERDOSE so to speak.
on your point 3. it is painful to let go of the things you can't have to lose the weight, maybe you are lucky and didn't have to do that but some do. And this is worse than drugs because you face it EVERY SINGLE *KITTEN* DAY!!! There is no GOING OFF THE DRUG when it comes to food.
And just like alcohol, most can take it or leave it so some DON't understand why someone else has a hard time and is addicted.
There are similarities yes ie hiding food, perhaps losing the job or a spouse or even die from side effects but that still does not mean food addiction is real....
still doesn't make it an addiction....why because I've seen people like that get WLS and lose the weight and keep it off.
and I have yet to see a "food" addict do illegal acts to get food or leave their family because food was more important...yes maybe their family leaves them...
no physical pain or withdrawal when you go on a diet....have you seen an addict give up a drug like alcohol or crack? seriously.
but again if this is an addiction and it's known to be an addiction and they have education and are smart why not get treatment? or as mentioned above what about people who have issues with food like BED and still manage to lose weight and maintain?
I do have a carb addiction. But thankfully I figured that out and eat complex carbs/low glycemic index food, and avoid sugar and simple carbs. It changed my life. I actually had carb withdrawal symptoms for a week when I initially abruptly dropped them down.
To me that's like saying you are an alcoholic that can't drink rum cause of effects but can drink vodka...really?
I am not getting into a food addiction debate, I personally find that notion distasteful considering what happens during an actual addiction and the aftermath...and find that saying eating is out of your control an excuse to not change.0
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