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Hot topics! Sugar in fruit
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sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »I love cake, but fruit cake is gross. Now chocolate . . .
dude, everyone knows fruit cake is better than chocolate cake because fiber....
Fiber is what they make cables out of. There is literally a disease called cystic fibrosis. Fibroids are a benign tumor. Why would I want to eat fiber???!!!!
because, fiber!3 -
The "sugar is evil" people get pushed into a corner because fruit has sugar and there's no way around that.lemurcat12 wrote: »Yeah, I don't think fruit is necessary (I think vegetables are far more so for most). I just think the idea that it's harmful is bizarre.
If sugar is evil, then fruit is evil. If fruit isn't evil, that would mean that sugar isn't evil. That's hard to reconcile since they want to say that sugar is evil but don't want to say that about fruit.
It's quite the dilemma.
BRAVO!1 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »People are arguing in favor of juice as a good everyday choice for kids? I think thats's a bad idea. Kids don't eat that many calories. An active 8 year old might need 1400-1500kcal. Tops. A cup of juice would be one tenth of a child's calories for the day, with over 30g of carbs, about 20g of which is sugar. That's a lot of calories to devote to something without much of a nutritional punch.
Plus sugary drink cosumption is linked to health problems like insulin resistance down the road. I'd rather they eat the entire 3-4 apples rather than drink the sugars of those apples as a cup of juice. And yes, I doubt they would eat 3 or 4 apples in a day. Perhaps that is the body's way of saying it does need or want 3 or 4 apples every day. Maybe on a rare day they would eat it so I'll keep juice consumption as rare too.
We're watching carbs for kids now? In the context of a balanced diet 150 calories of juice is nothing (which is not nutritionally devoid mind you). You eat low carb, you know how to cram all the nutrition you need in less than half of the calories you consume (the rest of which fat). It doesn't take a lot to have a nutritious diet. And the insulin resistance "link" is circumstantial at best. Many less developed communities consume a lot of sugar in fruit and honey form with no insulin resistance problems. Want kids healthy? Encourage physical activity instead of restricting their macros.
Juice is about the same as soda, so yes. I limit that. No, I do not want them having a cup of juice or soda for breakfast. I'll limit empty sugar calories (carbs) in my kids' diet. If you want to consider one tenth of your children's diet as nothing, then fine. I don't want every tenth swallow of my kids' diet to be juice or soda.
I said if my kids want to eat the equivalent fruit that a glass of juice will hold, I am for that. A cup of apple juice is 3-4 apples. If my kids want that they have 3-4 apples. I say go for it. I doubt they would ask for extra like they would for juice. It's a sugar water. They would eat sugar cubes if I let them. I don't see the need for that. That's why I restrict it to a treat. A rare thing.
My 13 year old had a canteloupe and bacon for breakfast today. My younger two had pancakes (made with coconut flour, flax meal, chia, hemp hearts, protein powder, mashed banana, coconut oil, lots of eggs and cream) and syrup. I make a low carb pancake because they like to add maple syrup to their pancakes. And yes, I limit the syrup they put on pancakes too. We keep it to 1 Tbs. No need for a syrup puddle. Aren't I a big meanie?
I keep my kids gluten free too because celiac runs in the family. Do you see that as deprived or as me keeping my kids healthy and safe?
As their parent, I make the choices concerning the foods my kids have access to. I want the vast majority of those foods to be about better health. I think keeping carbs lower, at least moderate, is a healthy choice. I try to limit their processed, sugary, grain based carbs. They can eat as much fruit and veggies as they desire.
why is the sugar in fruit ok for your kids but not the juice fruit that comes from sugar? That is pretty ridiculous claim, but not surprising.
I grew up drinking jolt, coke, juice, etc, and came out just fine, so not sure why we are no fear mongering sugar to kids with no medical condition.
this is ridiculousness to the nth degree...
I grew up drinking juice every day too. I was tall slim and played multiple sports into my 20s. By 40 I was prediabetic. The kids have my genes and not yours. I'm going with what's safer. Who know, maybe IR is in your future too. Let's hope not.amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »People are arguing in favor of juice as a good everyday choice for kids? I think thats's a bad idea. Kids don't eat that many calories. An active 8 year old might need 1400-1500kcal. Tops. A cup of juice would be one tenth of a child's calories for the day, with over 30g of carbs, about 20g of which is sugar. That's a lot of calories to devote to something without much of a nutritional punch.
Plus sugary drink cosumption is linked to health problems like insulin resistance down the road. I'd rather they eat the entire 3-4 apples rather than drink the sugars of those apples as a cup of juice. And yes, I doubt they would eat 3 or 4 apples in a day. Perhaps that is the body's way of saying it does need or want 3 or 4 apples every day. Maybe on a rare day they would eat it so I'll keep juice consumption as rare too.
We're watching carbs for kids now? In the context of a balanced diet 150 calories of juice is nothing (which is not nutritionally devoid mind you). You eat low carb, you know how to cram all the nutrition you need in less than half of the calories you consume (the rest of which fat). It doesn't take a lot to have a nutritious diet. And the insulin resistance "link" is circumstantial at best. Many less developed communities consume a lot of sugar in fruit and honey form with no insulin resistance problems. Want kids healthy? Encourage physical activity instead of restricting their macros.
Juice is about the same as soda, so yes. I limit that. No, I do not want them having a cup of juice or soda for breakfast. I'll limit empty sugar calories (carbs) in my kids' diet. If you want to consider one tenth of your children's diet as nothing, then fine. I don't want every tenth swallow of my kids' diet to be juice or soda.
I said if my kids want to eat the equivalent fruit that a glass of juice will hold, I am for that. A cup of apple juice is 3-4 apples. If my kids want that they have 3-4 apples. I say go for it. I doubt they would ask for extra like they would for juice. It's a sugar water. They would eat sugar cubes if I let them. I don't see the need for that. That's why I restrictjuice and soda to a treat. A rare thing.
My 13 year old had a canteloupe and bacon for breakfast today. My younger two had pancakes (made with coconut flour, flax meal, chia, hemp hearts, protein powder, mashed banana, coconut oil, lots of eggs and cream) and maple syrup. I make a low carb pancake because they like to add maple syrup to their pancakes. And yes, I limit the syrup they put on pancakes too. We keep it to 1 Tbs. No need for a syrup puddle. Aren't I a big meanie?
I keep my kids gluten free too because celiac runs in the family. Do you see that as deprivation or as me keeping my kids healthy and safe?
As their parent, I make the choices concerning the foods my kids have access to. I want the vast majority of those foods to be about better health. I think keeping carbs lower, at least moderate, is a healthy choice. I try to limit their processed, sugary, grain based carbs. They can eat as much fruit and veggies as they desire.
Your children your rules. Not my place to argue with that. But dude... this is just weird...
Controlling my kids' food is weird? I do the cooking and shopping too so technically I control my husband's food too. I don't see the weird.
My kids' best friend can't eat pork or non halal foods, and he just finished not eating during the day because of his family's beliefs. Weird? Nah. This is just raising children in the manner you believe to be best. If you have children I am sure you do the same. If you believed fresh produce was better than the canned stuff, you would probably buy them fresh produce. If you believed taking a multivitamin was beneficial, you would get your kids multi vitamins. I believe eating the actual fruit or vegetable is better for my kids than just the juice. C'est la vie.
Like I said, not my place. I don't argue with moms who feed their perfectly healthy children gluten free either. I just found it weird because this is the first time I heard someone restricting their children's carbs or someone calling 150 calories of juice empty but not the same calories in (actually empty) frying oil. I don't argue parenting because I don't feel comfortable meddling in other people's family business, so don't take any of what I said as an attempt to discuss your choices for your family.4 -
The WHO spent more time on this than I have and concluded that fruit juice aka "free sugars" is not the same as sugar in fruit. I'm sure they published their reasons.
Tooth decay is probably the biggest concern in kids.
As with their overall added sugar recommendations, it's all about calorie density and tooth health, nothing more.1 -
I see absolutely nothing wrong with parents restricting juice and fizzy drinks, did the same with my kids. They got to have coke when we went out for a meal or at a kids party, but that was about it. It was a treat, not a daily or even weekly occurrence. It probably helped that I don't drink soda, so they just picked up on my habits.5
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stevencloser wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »@ndj1979 you are pushing nonsense to some extent. There is a huge difference between getting fructose from drinking juice or getting it from eating the fruit. The fructose in juice is much more concentrated and will hit the blood and be dumped in the liver at a much higher rate and fructose absorbed by eating fruit.
There are not plenty of studies linking sugary drinks with metabolic problems. Toxicity is often depended on dosage. So while sugar is sugar, dumping 65g of sugar into your blood via a drink isn't the same as getting that same amount of sugar by eating enough fruit. The fiber in fruit tends to gum things up and slow the process down.
This assumes (1) that it is always bad for something to be a quickly digested/fast carb; and (2) that you consume juice alone. With respect to (1), it only really matters if you have blood sugar/IR issues, and can be a positive if you are refueling during/after exercise. I like to eat a banana before or after a run, sometimes, and bananas are pretty low fiber, so same idea. With respect to (2), I actually think most people drink juice with other food. I rarely drink calories, including juice, but every once in a while I'll have a small glass of juice (nowhere near 65 g, which would require something like 3 cups) with breakfast. The things I eat along with it slow down absorption, just like the fiber in fruit. That's why rules that overgeneralize (juice always has X, Y, Z effects and that's bad) are not useful and tend to miss the bigger picture.
Well there is a big problem with your juice theory, kids. It is common to let kids have juice, I used to do it too. I'm seriously considering getting DEXA scans for my kids. Probably won't they are thin as rails and we've cut way back on juice. Still it is scary.
Do you feed your kids juice alone without any food? Just like, plant a bottle of juice in front of them and let them figure it out? No? Then what is your problem?
I take it you have no experience with kids.
The food your kids eat probably balances out the "evilness" of the sugar in the fruit juice. You can get fibre from other sources. It doesn't have to be with the fruit juice in order to "negate" the sugar.
When my kids were little there were many times they managed to just get juice. That is actually really common with kids, but it was less of a problem in Japan than the states. Green tea is just as common in Japan for kids as juice and that is normally unsweetened. In the states it is hard to believe how many times kids are given sweeten drinks.
So you believe the sugar in juice overrides the food your kids have eaten; that all the nutrients in that plate of food is completely gone because your kids drank some apple juice with it?
No, it is just kids often drink without eating. That is just normal for humans. The problem with juice is that it takes a lot of fruit to make a small amount of juice and all the fiber is removed. This allows for higher levels of fructose to hit the liver and that is where problems can happen. Childhood obesity is going through the roof in many countries and juice is probably a big part of the problem. People think they are making a healthy choice for kids and they really aren't. It would be much better to give kids water and a piece of fruit than to give them a small can of juice.
My son was only visibly fat when he was being breast feed. Now at 15 he is almost too lean. However when he was little there were many times some juice was allowed. However it was mostly limited. I think schools were bigger problem and they often had juice boxes for kids. That was in the states, when he was in Japan fulltime from about 5th grade, it was just milk, unsweaten tea and water at school. In the US I really think the schools are a major vector for obesity.2 -
WinoGelato wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »@ndj1979 you are pushing nonsense to some extent. There is a huge difference between getting fructose from drinking juice or getting it from eating the fruit. The fructose in juice is much more concentrated and will hit the blood and be dumped in the liver at a much higher rate and fructose absorbed by eating fruit.
There are not plenty of studies linking sugary drinks with metabolic problems. Toxicity is often depended on dosage. So while sugar is sugar, dumping 65g of sugar into your blood via a drink isn't the same as getting that same amount of sugar by eating enough fruit. The fiber in fruit tends to gum things up and slow the process down.
This assumes (1) that it is always bad for something to be a quickly digested/fast carb; and (2) that you consume juice alone. With respect to (1), it only really matters if you have blood sugar/IR issues, and can be a positive if you are refueling during/after exercise. I like to eat a banana before or after a run, sometimes, and bananas are pretty low fiber, so same idea. With respect to (2), I actually think most people drink juice with other food. I rarely drink calories, including juice, but every once in a while I'll have a small glass of juice (nowhere near 65 g, which would require something like 3 cups) with breakfast. The things I eat along with it slow down absorption, just like the fiber in fruit. That's why rules that overgeneralize (juice always has X, Y, Z effects and that's bad) are not useful and tend to miss the bigger picture.
Well there is a big problem with your juice theory, kids. It is common to let kids have juice, I used to do it too. I'm seriously considering getting DEXA scans for my kids. Probably won't they are thin as rails and we've cut way back on juice. Still it is scary.
Maybe I'm naive as to what DEXA scans do, doesn't it just measure body fat percentage? How in any way would that be a helpful benchmark for you to have for your growing children? Children's bodies change constantly, how would knowing what body fat percent they have at a particular age, knowing that it could very well change with the next growth spurt, be relevant at all as far as their overall health? Also not sure why juice would be the scapegoat if the results do not meet your standards... wouldn't looking at their total diet and all of their calorie consumption be more helpful? Or, I don't know, talking to their pediatrician to see if he/she has any concerns that you need to monitor or adjust for?
Sure DEXA scans can measure bone density, but that would probably be a waste of time for youth. The main thing a DEXA scan can measure all types of fat including visceral fat. That is the type of fat that leads to metabolic issues and even thin people can have high levels of visceral fat. There are other ways at getting at that information but it takes effort. For example get a measurement of overall fat and then use skin fold measurements to determine how much o the fat is actually visceral fat. That will give a good approximation at least.
For my kids I'm not seriously worried. They always been very active and are on the low side of weight for their height. I going to probably get a scan next month so mainly that is why I was thinking about it.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »I don't get the issue with fruit juices anyway outside of the "drinking calories" argument. The sugar in a glass of orange juice is the same sugar that is in the two oranges it was made from. Why would eating 2 oranges be better than drinking them if in a context of a balanced diet you are getting plenty of fiber anyway?
No it isn't the same. Fruit provides sugar and fiber at the same time. If the fiber is in your colon, it doesn't help with the juice hitting the stomach.1 -
zoeysasha37 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »@ndj1979 you are pushing nonsense to some extent. There is a huge difference between getting fructose from drinking juice or getting it from eating the fruit. The fructose in juice is much more concentrated and will hit the blood and be dumped in the liver at a much higher rate and fructose absorbed by eating fruit.
There are not plenty of studies linking sugary drinks with metabolic problems. Toxicity is often depended on dosage. So while sugar is sugar, dumping 65g of sugar into your blood via a drink isn't the same as getting that same amount of sugar by eating enough fruit. The fiber in fruit tends to gum things up and slow the process down.
This assumes (1) that it is always bad for something to be a quickly digested/fast carb; and (2) that you consume juice alone. With respect to (1), it only really matters if you have blood sugar/IR issues, and can be a positive if you are refueling during/after exercise. I like to eat a banana before or after a run, sometimes, and bananas are pretty low fiber, so same idea. With respect to (2), I actually think most people drink juice with other food. I rarely drink calories, including juice, but every once in a while I'll have a small glass of juice (nowhere near 65 g, which would require something like 3 cups) with breakfast. The things I eat along with it slow down absorption, just like the fiber in fruit. That's why rules that overgeneralize (juice always has X, Y, Z effects and that's bad) are not useful and tend to miss the bigger picture.
Well there is a big problem with your juice theory, kids. It is common to let kids have juice, I used to do it too. I'm seriously considering getting DEXA scans for my kids. Probably won't they are thin as rails and we've cut way back on juice. Still it is scary.
so your kids are on a 100% juice intake?
Are you trying to be a clown?
I only see one clown in this thread..
If you don't feed your kids 100% juice and they are eating sugar in moderation with other fruits and vegetables then there is no need to fear monger about sugar...
I agree 100%
When things are eaten or drank in moderation( sans any medical issues) then there's no problem.
I drink juice every day as Having 4 ounces of juice with a well balanced meal shouldn't really be a big deal. ( I have no medical issues)
The point is giving kids 4 ounces of juice probably isn't much different from giving kids 4 ounces of soda pop. Most parents would let their kids have soda pop, at least on a daily basis. There isn't any fear mongering involved. It is more of an overreaction by people that don't want to think about how much sugar is being consumed.1 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »I don't get the issue with fruit juices anyway outside of the "drinking calories" argument. The sugar in a glass of orange juice is the same sugar that is in the two oranges it was made from. Why would eating 2 oranges be better than drinking them if in a context of a balanced diet you are getting plenty of fiber anyway?
No it isn't the same. Fruit provides sugar and fiber at the same time. If the fiber is in your colon, it doesn't help with the juice hitting the stomach.
Why do you think it's important to get them at the same time?1 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »I don't get the issue with fruit juices anyway outside of the "drinking calories" argument. The sugar in a glass of orange juice is the same sugar that is in the two oranges it was made from. Why would eating 2 oranges be better than drinking them if in a context of a balanced diet you are getting plenty of fiber anyway?
No it isn't the same. Fruit provides sugar and fiber at the same time. If the fiber is in your colon, it doesn't help with the juice hitting the stomach.
Why do you think it's important to get them at the same time?
The fiber makes a gummy mess in your stomach and will drag a good part of the sugar with it into the intestines. That slows the rate of absorption down and gives the liver more time to deal with the fructose. Some of the fructose will even be drug into the large intestine where bacteria will eat it. Kids also enjoy the farts caused by that.
The liver is pretty amazing and pretty fast, but overloading it may be a cause of metabolic issues. At least it has been shown that metabolic disease symptoms can be triggered in as little as two weeks of sweeten beverage consumption. So probably anything that slows the process down is good. Fiber is like a mechanical diet aid.2 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »I love cake, but fruit cake is gross. Now chocolate . . .
dude, everyone knows fruit cake is better than chocolate cake because fiber....
And the fact that it can't make you fat, because it's never actually eaten?2 -
From a food energetics perspective, fruits cool off your body. If you have been having cold hands/feet or if you're the type of person who tends to need a sweater to keep yourself warm when most people around you tend to be fine, then you want to avoid fruits. It's all relative to the person - not about the nutrient content.
For example, bananas have excellent nutrients. But they grow near the equator where it's very hot. So if you look outside your window and it's snowing outside and you plan to have a banana imported from the tropics to fuel a workout, then you're not necessarily doing your body a favor in terms of acclimating to your climate regardless of the nutrient content.
It's really important to not forget nature when you're thinking of health!
[edited by MFP Mods]0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »I don't get the issue with fruit juices anyway outside of the "drinking calories" argument. The sugar in a glass of orange juice is the same sugar that is in the two oranges it was made from. Why would eating 2 oranges be better than drinking them if in a context of a balanced diet you are getting plenty of fiber anyway?
No it isn't the same. Fruit provides sugar and fiber at the same time. If the fiber is in your colon, it doesn't help with the juice hitting the stomach.
Why do you think it's important to get them at the same time?
The fiber makes a gummy mess in your stomach and will drag a good part of the sugar with it into the intestines. That slows the rate of absorption down and gives the liver more time to deal with the fructose. Some of the fructose will even be drug into the large intestine where bacteria will eat it. Kids also enjoy the farts caused by that.
The liver is pretty amazing and pretty fast, but overloading it may be a cause of metabolic issues. At least it has been shown that metabolic disease symptoms can be triggered in as little as two weeks of sweeten beverage consumption. So probably anything that slows the process down is good. Fiber is like a mechanical diet aid.
And you keep ignoring dosage and context.
You would have to drink juice by the gallon to "overload the liver".
Not to mention the fact that fiber is not needed to "drag the sugar into the intestines" since sugar isn't absorbed through the stomach in the first place. It, like all carbohydrates, are absorbed through the intestines.
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This thread has officially jumped the shark.7
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WinoGelato wrote: »This thread has officially jumped the shark.
I'm gobsmacked and that rarely happens. :noway:2 -
GirlonBliss wrote: »From a food energetics perspective, fruits cool off your body. If you have been having cold hands/feet or if you're the type of person who tends to need a sweater to keep yourself warm when most people around you tend to be fine, then you want to avoid fruits. It's all relative to the person - not about the nutrient content.
For example, bananas have excellent nutrients. But they grow near the equator where it's very hot. So if you look outside your window and it's snowing outside and you plan to have a banana imported from the tropics to fuel a workout, then you're not necessarily doing your body a favor in terms of acclimating to your climate regardless of the nutrient content.
Can the climate inappropriateness of my food choices be overcome by earthing?12 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »I don't get the issue with fruit juices anyway outside of the "drinking calories" argument. The sugar in a glass of orange juice is the same sugar that is in the two oranges it was made from. Why would eating 2 oranges be better than drinking them if in a context of a balanced diet you are getting plenty of fiber anyway?
No it isn't the same. Fruit provides sugar and fiber at the same time. If the fiber is in your colon, it doesn't help with the juice hitting the stomach.
Why do you think it's important to get them at the same time?
The fiber makes a gummy mess in your stomach and will drag a good part of the sugar with it into the intestines. That slows the rate of absorption down and gives the liver more time to deal with the fructose. Some of the fructose will even be drug into the large intestine where bacteria will eat it. Kids also enjoy the farts caused by that.
The liver is pretty amazing and pretty fast, but overloading it may be a cause of metabolic issues. At least it has been shown that metabolic disease symptoms can be triggered in as little as two weeks of sweeten beverage consumption. So probably anything that slows the process down is good. Fiber is like a mechanical diet aid.
And you keep ignoring dosage and context.
You would have to drink juice by the gallon to "overload the liver".
Not to mention the fact that fiber is not needed to "drag the sugar into the intestines" since sugar isn't absorbed through the stomach in the first place. It, like all carbohydrates, are absorbed through the intestines.
Gallon? Maybe if it is distilled so only water is left. Seems like you are the one ignoring dosage. No clue what you mean by context. http://www.sugarscience.org/sugar-sweetened-beverages/#.V4cXDI9OKUk
Where did I say sugar passes into the blood from the stomach? It is from the small intestine when it is in a liquid form. That just happens quickly. When there is a lot of fiber involved, digestion is slowed down and not all of it gets absorbed before it hits the bacteria rich large intestine.
Eating fruit provides lower doses of sugar with high doses of fiber. If you can eat as much fruit as it takes to make the juice just as fast as you can drink the juice, then at least you still have the fiber to help slow things down. Which is better, driving in to a large tree at 1mph or at 60mph? Speed matters.
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As someone who professionally works with teenagers I have to say that, while it is possible to control a pre teen diet to some extent, those pubescent and up with the most rigid home control over specific elements like diet, rather than education and limited free will, are the most likely to be going for it during those times they are at school, walking past shops etc7
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As someone who professionally works with teenagers I have to say that, while it is possible to control a pre teen diet to some extent, those pubescent and up with the most rigid home control over specific elements like diet, rather than education and limited free will, are the most likely to be going for it during those times they are at school, walking past shops etc
What they do in Japan at least in middle school years is effective too. Kids have to wear uniforms to school and while wearing uniforms they aren't allowed to shop or use vending machines. It works well because kids at that age love to report others breaking the rules. I don't think it had anything to do with sugar at first, but it effectively makes it very difficult for kids to buy sweetened drinks or candy. The only time it kind of breaks down is during summer breaks which can be a long 40 days. Anyway I know about this because the school told us when our son was buying a sweet drink from a vending machine on the way home.
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