Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Flu shots? For them or against ?
Replies
-
I think they're totally great as a probably ineffective way for vulnerable populations such as the elderly or very young to not die of the flu. For me, I think I look back on all the years I took it and got the flu anyway and just don't bother with it.2
-
Ive never gotten one and I have always refused the doctors when they tried to insist my kids take them. Same goes for the chicken pox shot. I believe our bodies learn to build up immunity by getting sick. In the case of those whose immunity's are shot, they need the extra help. But if your are healthy, I think its better for your immunity to get in the exercise and build its muscles just like we build ours. Now concerning diseases that are KNOWN to kill? Shots shots shots! I will probably get my kids the chicken pox shot this year though. They never caught it (when I was a kid it was a right of passage) and I know that it becomes more dangerous with age.5
-
Ive never gotten one and I have always refused the doctors when they tried to insist my kids take them. Same goes for the chicken pox shot. I believe our bodies learn to build up immunity by getting sick. In the case of those whose immunity's are shot, they need the extra help. But if your are healthy, I think its better for your immunity to get in the exercise and build its muscles just like we build ours. Now concerning diseases that are KNOWN to kill? Shots shots shots! I will probably get my kids the chicken pox shot this year though. They never caught it (when I was a kid it was a right of passage) and I know that it becomes more dangerous with age.
That is how vaccines work. Yes, your immune system improves by getting a vaccine (that's kinda the whole point). It is better than contracting a live form of the same virus, though, because you build the immune response without having to be sick.
By the way, influenza is known to kill. Even if you are healthy and have an extremely low chance of dying from influenza, you still become a carrier who may spread it to someone who will die from it.7 -
As good as another black plague sounds right now...I think I'll take the vaccine5
-
Ive never gotten one and I have always refused the doctors when they tried to insist my kids take them. Same goes for the chicken pox shot. I believe our bodies learn to build up immunity by getting sick. In the case of those whose immunity's are shot, they need the extra help. But if your are healthy, I think its better for your immunity to get in the exercise and build its muscles just like we build ours. Now concerning diseases that are KNOWN to kill? Shots shots shots! I will probably get my kids the chicken pox shot this year though. They never caught it (when I was a kid it was a right of passage) and I know that it becomes more dangerous with age.
Please read the book Immunity by William Paul. You'll learn why such a complex subject can't be reduced to such simple and incorrect analogies.3 -
I wonder how many people who say "I got the flu anyway" went to the doctor and were diagnosed with influenza. Most of the time, when people think they have the flu, they really have either norovirus, rotavirus, one of the enteroviruses, or one of the thousand variations of rhinovirus.
I've had Influenza A before. It was so much worse than any other cold or flu-like virus I've ever had. I broke ribs coughing, ended up with 6 months of bronchitis that required a rescue inhaler, and collapsed at work and required hospitalization. I certainly get the flu shot.
10 -
Ive never gotten one and I have always refused the doctors when they tried to insist my kids take them. Same goes for the chicken pox shot. I believe our bodies learn to build up immunity by getting sick. In the case of those whose immunity's are shot, they need the extra help. But if your are healthy, I think its better for your immunity to get in the exercise and build its muscles just like we build ours. Now concerning diseases that are KNOWN to kill? Shots shots shots! I will probably get my kids the chicken pox shot this year though. They never caught it (when I was a kid it was a right of passage) and I know that it becomes more dangerous with age.
Your immune system is working constantly whether you get sick or not. We don't need to get illnesses to "exercise" our immune system -- we are constantly working it just from being alive and encountering potential illnesses daily.6 -
I don't get it regularly like I should being at risk (asthma). I've never actually had influenza, or if I did it was very mild and acted more like a cold. If it was the flu, it wasn't severe enough to display it's hallmark characteristics like body aches and a fever. But I would get colds so bad I had to take my inhaler every 2 hours! My doc talked me into the pneumonia shot when I was about 25, and it was the best thing I've ever done for myself. I haven't had a severe cold like that since. So, I'm for any immunization that helps you be healthier and more productive with your life... (even if I don't practice what I preach, lol)1
-
Ive never gotten one and I have always refused the doctors when they tried to insist my kids take them. Same goes for the chicken pox shot. I believe our bodies learn to build up immunity by getting sick. In the case of those whose immunity's are shot, they need the extra help. But if your are healthy, I think its better for your immunity to get in the exercise and build its muscles just like we build ours. Now concerning diseases that are KNOWN to kill? Shots shots shots! I will probably get my kids the chicken pox shot this year though. They never caught it (when I was a kid it was a right of passage) and I know that it becomes more dangerous with age.
But that's literally how a vaccine works, by imitating the infection so your body creates the antibodies you need to fight off the actual infection, without you having to actually get sick.
Seemingly healthy people die from the flu every year. It may not be likely, but it certainly happens. And many more are sick for weeks. Most people who say they have had the flu and it wasn't that big a deal, actually had a bad cold and assumed it was the flu. The flu will knock even a healthy person on their *kitten*.5 -
DisruptedMatrix wrote: »I'll get them when I'm in my 60s but at 26 I'll just bite the bullet and spend a week feeling like death because i caught the flu. If it was free then I'd get it now.
Cost of 'flu vaccine October 2016 €10 when I was visiting GP for something else.
Cost of Codinex cough syrup January 2017: €9.60 Cost of Advil Cold n Flu January 2017: €6.10 and I've only got the respiratory bug (not the 'flu) that's doing the rounds in my city. Missed days from work 1.5.
Last time I had a 'flu (6 years ago) I missed 5 days of work as in couldn't get out of bed and get dressed. Had to get steroids and a prescription cough bottle twice. Spent the next four months fighting off the post viral cough, had sore ribs and stomach muscles from the cough, had to get those old-lady pads, had to get a rescue inhaler. Couldn't walk beyond strolling pace and gained over 2 stone in weight. I was a healthy young adult at the time and picked it up during work related studies when I was mixing with lots of new people (also healthy young adults). That wasn't even a pandemic year (i.e. not Swine 'flu).4 -
Not for or against them, but I've never had one and I haven't had the flu since high school (39 years). I work at a university, around people all the time. Just lucky, I gues...2
-
Ive never gotten one and I have always refused the doctors when they tried to insist my kids take them. Same goes for the chicken pox shot. I believe our bodies learn to build up immunity by getting sick. In the case of those whose immunity's are shot, they need the extra help. But if your are healthy, I think its better for your immunity to get in the exercise and build its muscles just like we build ours. Now concerning diseases that are KNOWN to kill? Shots shots shots! I will probably get my kids the chicken pox shot this year though. They never caught it (when I was a kid it was a right of passage) and I know that it becomes more dangerous with age.
You have already gotten many good responses on one part of this. I want to add that if your immunity is truly shot, vaccines are not effective (or not as effective). This is one reason herd immunity is so important. If a high enough percentage of the population is immunized, then those who cannot be vaccinated for various reasons, including immunosuppression, are still protected.4 -
Ive never gotten one and I have always refused the doctors when they tried to insist my kids take them. Same goes for the chicken pox shot. I believe our bodies learn to build up immunity by getting sick. In the case of those whose immunity's are shot, they need the extra help. But if your are healthy, I think its better for your immunity to get in the exercise and build its muscles just like we build ours. Now concerning diseases that are KNOWN to kill? Shots shots shots! I will probably get my kids the chicken pox shot this year though. They never caught it (when I was a kid it was a right of passage) and I know that it becomes more dangerous with age.
Refusing vaccination is analogous to never having your kids lift a weight or run and expecting them to succeed in a football game.
Immunity gained through exposure is only effective in the first 14 months and research is proving this to be even shorter. In order for immune systems to work effectively they must develop a memory response. Vaccines serve this purpose by introducing a similar structure to engage and develop immunological memory.1 -
Ive never gotten one and I have always refused the doctors when they tried to insist my kids take them. Same goes for the chicken pox shot. I believe our bodies learn to build up immunity by getting sick. In the case of those whose immunity's are shot, they need the extra help. But if your are healthy, I think its better for your immunity to get in the exercise and build its muscles just like we build ours. Now concerning diseases that are KNOWN to kill? Shots shots shots! I will probably get my kids the chicken pox shot this year though. They never caught it (when I was a kid it was a right of passage) and I know that it becomes more dangerous with age.
You have already gotten many good responses on one part of this. I want to add that if your immunity is truly shot, vaccines are not effective (or not as effective). This is one reason herd immunity is so important. If a high enough percentage of the population is immunized, then those who cannot be vaccinated for various reasons, including immunosuppression, are still protected.
As an immunosuppressed person the flu vaccine is somewhat effective. It's one of a few we can actually get because it's a dead virus and it somehow does make us more immune to that strain of the flu. For me any immunity is better than none.6 -
Interesting post. I am a flu vaccinators for my area of work...... However, I do not have the flu vaccine. On receiving the training to give this vaccine to a PGD I was told that it may be difficult for me to Be an effective vaccinator because of my unwillingness to have the jab myself. I really didn't see this as an issue as I do not have the vaccine as I am vegetarian and do not take egg products.
Apparently my vegetarian status was looked down on and it was obvious that I was being pressured into receiving a vaccine that I did not want for this reason.
Needless to say I vaccinated between 100-200 staff.
The way I see it is there are always going to be the type of person who ques up for the vaccine and there will always be those who will not.
A way to make me feel guilty I think was for the educators to tell me that I can have the flu without having any symptoms and therefore, could pass the flu on in this way...... this was the first I had heard of this and if anyone has come across any evidence for this then please share.1 -
amAyrebeccah wrote: »thielke2015 wrote: »Interesting post. I am a flu vaccinators for my area of work...... However, I do not have the flu vaccine. On receiving the training to give this vaccine to a PGD I was told that it may be difficult for me to Be an effective vaccinator because of my unwillingness to have the jab myself. I really didn't see this as an issue as I do not have the vaccine as I am vegetarian and do not take egg products.
Apparently my vegetarian status was looked down on and it was obvious that I was being pressured into receiving a vaccine that I did not want for this reason.
Needless to say I vaccinated between 100-200 staff.
The way I see it is there are always going to be the type of person who ques up for the vaccine and there will always be those who will not.
I'd probably be more concerned about this attitude toward your patients than the fact that you don't take the vaccine.
Also, you can get flu virus inoculation without egg in it. I'm surprised that no one told you that so you could at least properly educate patients.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/qa_flublok-vaccine.htmA way to make me feel guilty I think was for the educators to tell me that I can have the flu without having any symptoms and therefore, could pass the flu on in this way...... this was the first I had heard of this and if anyone has come across any evidence for this then please share.
It is possible, but studies question how likely.
Most healthy adults may be able to infect other people beginning 1 day before symptoms develop and up to 5 to 7 days after becoming sick. Children may pass the virus for longer than 7 days. Symptoms start 1 to 4 days after the virus enters the body. That means that you may be able to pass on the flu to someone else before you know you are sick, as well as while you are sick. Some people can be infected with the flu virus but have no symptoms. During this time, those persons may still spread the virus to others.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm
Contrast with
Asymptomatic individuals may shed influenza virus, but studies have not conclusively determined if such people effectively transmit influenza.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2646474/
That said, a person who regularly works in a medical context is probably at higher risk for spreading, even if asymptomatic.
Hi, thank you for this and if I had been given this information on the day then I might have actually proceeded. The papers look interesting so I have saved them and I was told there was no alternative for people who didn't take egg eg, veggies and vegans. Maybe a change for next winter! However, I am wondering about the motives behind them saying there was no other option... maybe financial?
2 -
Ive never gotten one and I have always refused the doctors when they tried to insist my kids take them. Same goes for the chicken pox shot. I believe our bodies learn to build up immunity by getting sick. In the case of those whose immunity's are shot, they need the extra help. But if your are healthy, I think its better for your immunity to get in the exercise and build its muscles just like we build ours. Now concerning diseases that are KNOWN to kill? Shots shots shots! I will probably get my kids the chicken pox shot this year though. They never caught it (when I was a kid it was a right of passage) and I know that it becomes more dangerous with age.
Refusing vaccination is analogous to never having your kids lift a weight or run and expecting them to succeed in a football game.
Immunity gained through exposure is only effective in the first 14 months and research is proving this to be even shorter. In order for immune systems to work effectively they must develop a memory response. Vaccines serve this purpose by introducing a similar structure to engage and develop immunological memory.
This isn't quite true - or I haven't read your post correctly.
Passive immunity - ie maternally issued immunity to newborns- wears off after around a year, that is true.
But for some diseases eg chicken pox, measles, mumps, immunity gained through exposure ie through having the actual disease, is lifelong.
People who have had known cases of these diseases do not need vaccination.
Other diseases, like whooping cough, this is not so - and people who have had disease still need vaccination as immunity from both disease and vaccine wear off after 7 - 10 years.
Hence the need for booster vaccines for some diseases and not for others.
3 -
Big Pharma settle cases out of court every year . Pay people off to keep them quiet . It's a billion dollar industry to sell vaccines . Just ask people privately that work in these places and they will tell you all the horror stories .3
-
I'm old enough to remember small pox,which I believe has been successfully eliminated due to vaccinations.7
-
yes, smallpox has been eradicated from the world now
http://www.who.int/features/2010/smallpox/en/
Well, unless it is all a Big Pharma Conspiracy and the WHO has been paid off to say that
7 -
paperpudding wrote: »yes, smallpox has been eradicated from the world now
http://www.who.int/features/2010/smallpox/en/
Well, unless it is all a Big Pharma Conspiracy and the WHO has been paid off to say that
Everything is a conspiracy and all truth is false
3 -
For the flu shot. Not always though. I was against it for a time, not because I seriously investigated the topic but because I witnessed coworkers getting sick and calling out of work and citing the flu shot as the reason. Not to mention I heard similar things from clients who would state they were unwell and called out from their jobs citing the flu shot as the reason.
Given that my job was the type where you only get paid if there is work, I didn't want to risk work, and therefore my pay, due to being out sick from whatever effects of a flu shot, which seemed more likely than the flu itself.
I got my first flu shot when I got pregnant last year. I wasn't working and the risk/reward of getting sick was a much different story.
I'm not going to pretend I understand flu shots or vaccine debate, but My behavior surrounding the issue was entirely about what seemed to serve me most at the time. #justbeinghonest1 -
Unless you have the live vaccine,it shouldn't make you ill though there are always exceptions. The shot I have makes me feel slightly feverish and achey for about 24 hours.
If you've ever experienced real flu you'll know it's much worse than the shot. I'm recovering from it at the moment (the shot doesn't protect against all strains) and have never felt so ill. I'm self employed and have had to cancel all work since Christmas. I've had 4 different lots of antibiotics for the resulting chest infection,which have horrible side effects,and have a suspected hernia from coughing. I can't even go upstairs without getting breathless. I'd take a few shot side effects over this any day!4 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »yes, smallpox has been eradicated from the world now
http://www.who.int/features/2010/smallpox/en/
Well, unless it is all a Big Pharma Conspiracy and the WHO has been paid off to say that
Everything is a conspiracy and all truth is false
Ah yes - alternative facts
7 -
The day I developed a full blown hate-on for the flu was when it destroyed my shoulder muscle. My doctor-sister told me flu can do that. Lucky it wasn't a heart muscle. My eyebrows went up and I squeaked, "Flu can do that?" Why, yes it can.
I am one of those quietly healthy people now who is in line for the flu shot the day it is released. I'm looking hard at the shingles vaccine too.7 -
Jordan,
great question!
I always thought I would probably get the flu shots later in my life to give me a fighting chance, but deep down, I'm against them.
I can't remember 100% why though, I did a basic research years ago and found something to do with your immune system fights better by itself and although I can see the benefits if your immune system is already compromised then it may be a no-brainier, but I read so many bad reports how people seem to get it really bad after they've had a flu jab!?
That's the one that really puts me off, this was years ago mind you and I don't know if flu jabs have improved in many ways or not?
I'm probably one of those that will never take the flu jab and hope to maintain a physical and mental fitness instead and then wish when I do get the flu, that I had taken the jabs!! ;-)2 -
Jordan,
great question!
I always thought I would probably get the flu shots later in my life to give me a fighting chance, but deep down, I'm against them.
I can't remember 100% why though, I did a basic research years ago and found something to do with your immune system fights better by itself and although I can see the benefits if your immune system is already compromised then it may be a no-brainier, but I read so many bad reports how people seem to get it really bad after they've had a flu jab!?
That's the one that really puts me off, this was years ago mind you and I don't know if flu jabs have improved in many ways or not?
I'm probably one of those that will never take the flu jab and hope to maintain a physical and mental fitness instead and then wish when I do get the flu, that I had taken the jabs!! ;-)
Or maybe after you've infected someone else who is vulnerable.......8 -
Jordan,
great question!
I always thought I would probably get the flu shots later in my life to give me a fighting chance, but deep down, I'm against them.
I can't remember 100% why though, I did a basic research years ago and found something to do with your immune system fights better by itself and although I can see the benefits if your immune system is already compromised then it may be a no-brainier, but I read so many bad reports how people seem to get it really bad after they've had a flu jab!?
That's the one that really puts me off, this was years ago mind you and I don't know if flu jabs have improved in many ways or not?
I'm probably one of those that will never take the flu jab and hope to maintain a physical and mental fitness instead and then wish when I do get the flu, that I had taken the jabs!! ;-)
So you didn't actually read the thread I guess.4 -
FOR FOR FOR them. Herd health is a legit thing.
DH is allergic to eggs so he can't take a flu shot. He has no choice. When he's older and with a weaker immune system he will need for everyone around him to take the shot so that he doesn't get what could be a terminal bought of flu.5 -
tmoneyag99 wrote: »FOR FOR FOR them. Herd health is a legit thing.
DH is allergic to eggs so he can't take a flu shot. He has no choice. When he's older and with a weaker immune system he will need for everyone around him to take the shot so that he doesn't get what could be a terminal bought of flu.
This!4
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.3K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.2K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 422 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.7K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions