Non friendly females in the gym.
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Just curious. All these complaints about being hit on. Women complain it happens in bars, in gyms, at school, at work, on the bus, on the train platform, at the beach, in jail, in saunas, in MFP private messages, and at drunken frat parties where everyone's playing strip poker.
Where is it acceptable, exactly, for men to approach women with interest and begin a polite conversation?
I mean, with all these gals signing up at MFP to complain about their boyfriends mistreating them in a variety of ways, they must have got the ball rolling somewhere initially...
There is no right answer because every woman is different. It's wherever she's comfortable with it.
I think what you're missing is that the reason a lot of women don't like the OP's attitude isn't because it's socially unacceptable to hit on a girl at the gym, it's because once they get rejected they post on the MFP forums, insinuating that there's something wrong with the girl for rejecting him and for not appreciating the fact that he was "just trying to be nice," when in reality, if she doesn't want his attention, he just needs to get over it because she's not, nor was she ever, there for him.
He needs to get over it? Or what? Meaning he should be discouraged from discussing his personal observations, however subjective they may or may not be, on MFP's forums?
I typed something out three times before deleting it.
You and I won't agree so I'm not going to bother.
Someone else do it.
I did as well, and then I decided it wasn't worth my time.3 -
I'm cordial. I stick to my workout and leave. I don't stop to 'chat'.1
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Just curious. All these complaints about being hit on. Women complain it happens in bars, in gyms, at school, at work, on the bus, on the train platform, at the beach, in jail, in saunas, in MFP private messages, and at drunken frat parties where everyone's playing strip poker.
Where is it acceptable, exactly, for men to approach women with interest and begin a polite conversation?
I mean, with all these gals signing up at MFP to complain about their boyfriends mistreating them in a variety of ways, they must have got the ball rolling somewhere initially...
There is no right answer because every woman is different. It's wherever she's comfortable with it.
I think what you're missing is that the reason a lot of women don't like the OP's attitude isn't because it's socially unacceptable to hit on a girl at the gym, it's because once they get rejected they post on the MFP forums, insinuating that there's something wrong with the girl for rejecting him and for not appreciating the fact that he was "just trying to be nice," when in reality, if she doesn't want his attention, he just needs to get over it because she's not, nor was she ever, there for him.
He needs to get over it? Or what? Meaning he should be discouraged from discussing his personal observations, however subjective they may or may not be, on MFP's forums?
He needs to get over it or be doomed to continual whining about how it's "unfriendly females" who are the problem and not his choice of venue, approach, or dudebro vibe. Also, many men who try to have these "polite" conversations of interest are neither as polite as they think they are nor good at reading social cues. The reason you see all these complaints is because a woman existing in public is not asking for attention, and it is not about the one guy who has done it, or the second guy who has done it, or even the third or fourth. It is a day in day out thing that ranges from unwelcome cat calling, to inappropriate private messages, invasive body language, refusal to back off, and tantruming when the woman--sorry, "female"--isn't flattered by the sheer wonder of their attention and ready to drop trow at the first penetrating gaze.
How some women's boyfriends treat them has absolutely nothing to do with any of this, unless you're going with the classic "nice guy," but I could do so much better, which is never nice, by the way. Treating women like objects and conquests to be won over who should be grateful that you (general "nice guy" you) deign to try to treat them like human beings (but really so you can get in their pants) and using the fact that some mentally or emotionally unhealthy people are attracted to unhealthy relationships as some sort of sign that you are due attention will never, ever get you what you want. And all but the emotionally damaged "females" can smell that attitude from a mile away and avoid it like the plague.25 -
I've been thinking about this a bit and here's the thing.
I'm married, late 30's and as far as looks go, I'm average. I don't think people would run away, but I'm no stunner. I am, however, very friendly and usually up for a chat. This has reduced over the years though, because of the number of instances where my willingness to smile, say hello and make small talk has resulted in awkward situations where all of a sudden I'm being hit on.
A lot of guys, especially those who may not be spoiled for choice on the lady front, mistake friendliness for interest. I have found myself many times having to tone down my willingness to be friendly to avoid having to knock someone back when they see it as an opportunity to pursue something more than a friendly chat. This has happened in circumstances where the guy knows damn well I'm married, hell - it's happened when the friendly chat has taken place with my husband standing right there, and then the next time I see the guy and I'm alone, he presses his suit. There's actually a shop near me that I used to frequent that I won't go to alone anymore because of this.
So, from my point of view, therein lies the issue. I'm now gun-shy of having a friendly chat, because all too often the guy wasn't just in it for a friendly chat, he was trying to open up an avenue. If that means that I get thought of as less friendly now, so be it. I'd rather that than be backed into an awkward or uncomfortable corner that I then have to maneuver out of.
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DarkSinestra wrote: »Just curious. All these complaints about being hit on. Women complain it happens in bars, in gyms, at school, at work, on the bus, on the train platform, at the beach, in jail, in saunas, in MFP private messages, and at drunken frat parties where everyone's playing strip poker.
Where is it acceptable, exactly, for men to approach women with interest and begin a polite conversation?
I mean, with all these gals signing up at MFP to complain about their boyfriends mistreating them in a variety of ways, they must have got the ball rolling somewhere initially...
There is no right answer because every woman is different. It's wherever she's comfortable with it.
I think what you're missing is that the reason a lot of women don't like the OP's attitude isn't because it's socially unacceptable to hit on a girl at the gym, it's because once they get rejected they post on the MFP forums, insinuating that there's something wrong with the girl for rejecting him and for not appreciating the fact that he was "just trying to be nice," when in reality, if she doesn't want his attention, he just needs to get over it because she's not, nor was she ever, there for him.
He needs to get over it? Or what? Meaning he should be discouraged from discussing his personal observations, however subjective they may or may not be, on MFP's forums?
He needs to get over it or be doomed to continual whining about how it's "unfriendly females" who are the problem and not his choice of venue, approach, or dudebro vibe. Also, many men who try to have these "polite" conversations of interest are neither as polite as they think they are nor good at reading social cues. The reason you see all these complaints is because a woman existing in public is not asking for attention, and it is not about the one guy who has done it, or the second guy who has done it, or even the third or fourth. It is a day in day out thing that ranges from unwelcome cat calling, to inappropriate private messages, invasive body language, refusal to back off, and tantruming when the woman--sorry, "female"--isn't flattered by the sheer wonder of their attention and ready to drop trow at the first penetrating gaze.
How some women's boyfriends treat them has absolutely nothing to do with any of this, unless you're going with the classic "nice guy," but I could do so much better, which is never nice, by the way. Treating women like objects and conquests to be won over who should be grateful that you (general "nice guy" you) deign to try to treat them like human beings (but really so you can get in their pants) and using the fact that some mentally or emotionally unhealthy people are attracted to unhealthy relationships as some sort of sign that you are due attention will never, ever get you what you want. And all but the emotionally damaged "females" can smell that attitude from a mile away and avoid it like the plague.
Nice rant and very true to neofeministic rhetoric. But I'm going to go with my original guess and answer my own question, since it hasn't yet been answered. Yes. I think politically incorrect observations about the less then optimum state of affairs between men and women, namely unfriendliness- in the gym and everywhere else - come under heavy fire when discussed here at MFP and are actively discouraged.
And I'm female too, DarkSinestra, despite what you may have heard or how I may come across at times. I know all about being female and my views differ drastically from yours.
The conclusions you've come to above, about the OP - or any other fella who would dare to say anything similar - are based on your own ideas about what the guy said. Not what the guy actually said, which was minimal.
I used to be where you're at with my own burden of neofeministic propaganda instilled in me during my formative years, continuing throughout my teenage and adult years and had me by the throat until I was 40 years old. So glad I woke up and did a 180. Because seeing men collectively as the enemy is no fun, and that is EXACTLY what's happening in all Western Societies, to one degree or another.
Men are my friends, not my enemy. Men, if allowed, want to protect and help women. Women, if ENCOURAGED, want to love and nurture men and treat them with the RESPECT which fosters a committed and FUNCTIONAL relationship. Men, the vast majority of the time, want good things for women and want to treat them well and want women to reciprocate. There's nothing wrong with any of that, or acknowledging it and it sure doesn't make "females" who see it that way emotionally damaged or worthy of a condescending rant.
Reality check. The guy said he found women unfriendly at the gym. This whole thing has been wildly blown out of proportion. But it's a useful thread for anyone to read to see where the problem lies with the horrendous state of affairs between men and women today.
Your question was answered. You simply didn't get the answer you wanted so decided to give your own. Attempting to classify a response as a rant and then shifting the goalposts of what you were asking for doesn't make your point any more valid. I haven't heard anything about you beyond the few posts I've seen of yours in this very thread. If you have a reputation here, rest assured it's not widespread enough for every random poster to come across. Whether you are a woman or not doesn't negate the fact that many women experience unwelcome attention from men fairly constantly in their lives, attention which causes them to reevaluate how they deal with men they don't know. Several women have said as much in this thread. Their experiences don't make them neofeminists. They make them people tired of other people's crap.
I do not see men collectively as the enemy. I have been happily married for over 26 years. I have met plenty of delightful, straightforward, friendly, helpful, kind, intelligent, etc. men and am fortunate enough to call some of them my friends. I have also met plenty of "nice guys" who are anything but nice, and their language is usually suspiciously similar to "OPs", calling women "females," making points about unfriendly "females" rather than speaking of people in general, throwing little PA tantrums when their desire for attention isn't reciprocated, bitterly complaining about all the females who go for jerks and hate nice guys while never realizing that they are not nice in the least. Ignoring the fact that these types of men are also out there in high numbers is ignoring reality.
I don't need protection. I'll happily just take respect, the same respect any human would like to have in interactions that aren't about what one person can get from another or about putting feet in the door for interactions that are unwelcome or inappropriate. Functional relationships come in all shapes and sizes and don't have to conform to traditional gender stereotypes to be healthy, the man as the protector, the woman as the nurturer. The guy said "females" were unfriendly at the gym. There is a tonal difference that many people with experience with the "nice guy" side of the equation picked up on and commented on. Since OP never deigned to clarify or further elucidate upon his experiences, all of us, you, I, and everyone else who has participated in this discussion have been forced to look at it through our various lenses if we choose to revisit the topic.
I will agree with you on one point. The general state of affairs between men and women is horrendous today, just as it has been throughout history and will likely be until whatever extinction event takes us all the way of the dinosaurs. If people learn that tone and terminology matter, maybe some of the misunderstandings, if that's what they are, will be cleared up. If not, then threads like these will continue to crop up from time to time, and we'll all have this same tired conversation all over again.21 -
Usually they're there to work out, not make friends.2
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Can't you casual chat with the guys if you want a conversation?6
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I've learned to not try to be friendly to people in the Gym. When I first started going to the Gym regularly back in 2009 I would walk in and even though I have my head phones in I would smile and say hi to people. I would get dirty looks, eye rolls and blank stares so I just stopped saying hi. Not trying to have a conversation but a simple hi... Some people are just self involved or just generally not nice to people they don't know. I just let it roll off.... :-)1
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LiftingRiot wrote: »PlaydohPants wrote: »CoffeeandDumbbells wrote: »the girls in my gym avoid dudes all the time. can you blame them for being closed off when they are being hit on, on the daily?
I have never seen anyone, male or female, hit on at my gym. We casually chat and nod and smile, but I have never heard anything creepy or anyone ask for a phone number or anything along those lines.
If it were just me not getting hit on I would chalk that up to something else, but there are some very pretty girls there and everyone is respectful.
So you haven't been getting the notes I left in your gym locker?
Maybe I am too dumb to realize I am being hit on??
Your words...
Or too ugly?
Or maybe at 5am people are not trying to pick up chicks?
Either way, I feel very comfortable and outside of catching a few guys using the mirrors for some gawking I haven't ever noticed anything. I think a good chunk of them are married and not 20. 20 year olds rarely get up that early
Just the right amount1 -
My question was a simple one and it was not answered. Until I answered it myself.
Your question "Or what?" was answered. The fact that I didn't choose to go along with your misinterpretation of what another poster was saying to you that followed "or what" is not a failure to answer the question. It's simply not a validation of your interpretation.By all means enlighten me. What do you think my point was?
Trying to imply that people are attempting to censor someone by taking issue with what or how he says it. You said as much in your misinterpretation of what the other poster you were speaking to said. They then chose not to engage with you rather than play along.Terrific. Glad we got that squared away.
You're the one who brought up your reputation, so yes, it makes sense that you'd be glad to know. Have you had problems with this? Otherwise, it seems an odd thing to bring up in the first place.What crap? OP said he was friendly in the gym towards women and noticed he got no reciprocation and that was about it. Who are you, or anyone else, to read into his motives or the reasons why this occurred the way it did? That's classic projection. OP didn't admit to giving anyone crap or treating anyone crappily. Who's moving the goalposts? And I didn't call other women neofeminists. I called you one.
It's an odd thing to start a thread about here if that's all there is to it. Everywhere I go there are some friendly people, some unfriendly people, and some I don't interact with enough even to tell. It's unlikely anyone would bat an eye if I started a thread to discuss something every one of us experiences if we leave the house. If I said specifically MEN were unfriendly, I'd likely get similar responses to OP. Some asking me what I mean, some telling me to get over it, some relating their own experiences to what I've said, etc. People interpret vaguely worded things, or things worded in connotations through their own filters. It's human nature. You're free not to like it. You're free not to do it. You're even free to protest it, but unless OP comes to clarify his intentions, you don't know any more about what he did or didn't do than anyone else. You are also choosing your own interpretation and promulgating it through your lens.
You called me a neofeminist for asserting exactly the same sentiments many women in this thread have asserted. In my experience, people toss out labels to be dismissive of what the other person has said, especially when it comes to issues of feminism. If that wasn't your intention, to be dismissive, then I'm willing to drop that particular thread of the discussion.That's good. Such an attitude would be conducive to a happy marriage.
That sounds rather condescending. I hope that wasn't your intention, given in your previous post you indicated you find condescension a negative in communication.I feel ya. But the OP didn't throw a tantrum or complain bitterly. Seriously. Where are you even seeing that? Why are you so invested in raging toward a certain subset of men who think they're nicer than they actually are and giving them so much influence in the "tone" of this conversation? Especially when you say you have been happily married yourself for decades?
I would say starting a thread to complain specifically about unfriendly females is on the petty side and reeks of a degree of bitterness at being rejected. See above about the general human experience of coming across friendly and unfriendly people in day to day life without feeling the need to point it out as something strange.
Why are you interpreting indictment of a specific behavior as rage? I don't getting that. What does my marriage to one man have to do with the behaviors of some other men or vice versa? Men aren't a monolith or interchangeable. I'm sorry. I truly have no idea where you're trying to go with that particular correlation.Yeah neither do I. And I haven't been married for decades but single since 1986 and out on my own at the age of 18 with absolutely no parental or financial support. And since that time, I have never lived off anyone else's income ever. I educated myself at my own expense. I've traveled cross country and back again by myself, have lived alone for decades and go anywhere I please, alone and unafraid. I walk my talk and I'm both Alpha and traditionalist at the same time.
I, too, started my college years alone and without parental support. I was fortunate to obtain a scholarship, and I have been fortunate to live in a mutually supportive marriage. We have traveled together and occasionally alone. The mention of protection was in context of your assertion that men will happily protect women. If that's not important to you and has nothing to do with your own personal experience, I'm curious as to why you brought it up.I like respect too. I understand if I give it, the likelihood of getting it is higher. And I always take the initiative.
Ditto.Well that's romantic and I do love a bit of romance. But pretty much all human interaction is based on what one person can get from another and vice versa. Us human slobs are woefully dependent on each other. Even lone wolves like me. It needn't be seen as nefarious or tawdry, but rather practical, happily productive and very often life affirming.
Is that romantic? Hnh. I never saw it that way, but OK, if you like. It often isn't nefarious or tawdry, yet at times it also is. Refusing to acknowledge that it can be, and that this is an experience that many people have regularly in their day to day lives is refusing to acknowledge a part of reality. I don't focus exclusively on the tawdry or nefarious. This thread, however, largely has been focused that way, as per the experiences related here by many women and a few men as well.No. Clearly that wouldn't be the gracious thing to do.
Graciousness isn't often a priority of many social interactions, unfortunately.Depends what function one wants the relationship to have. Which is another conversation entirely and I don't think I'm up for it tonight.
That goes without saying. Different people all have different needs and ideas of what they want out of their relationships. What works for me and my husband wouldn't necessarily work for anyone else. People negotiate their own terms and find what works for them or fail to find that balance point and part ways.Oh goody.
More condescension, or an unfortunate effect of tone not conveying well in text?Yet the vast majority of men and women marry and make babies. Like you did probably. Not me. I wasn't willing to make myself vulnerable enough to the whims of anyone who might be inclined to impregnate me, and then I'd have to depend on his income and good graces for the next 20 years. I'm no June Cleaver although I've calmed down quite a bit. I agree it's bad, but apparently not bad enough to discourage men and women from getting together, taking marital vows and making babies. It's still happening en mass.
For someone taking others to task for making assumptions based on little information, you clearly aren't averse to the behavior when it suits you. I said I was married for 26 years. I said nothing about children. My husband and I chose not to have any because we enjoy each other, our time together, and our financial freedom too much for that. We took responsible steps toward ensuring we would not have accidental children, as most people do who are truly determined not to.
Having said that, there is nothing wrong with people becoming parents or being married. Being either or both is no automatic implication of a Leave It to Beaver style of life. I'm no June Cleaver, myself. One of the things that drew me to my husband was that he wasn't looking for that kind of relationship. If I were of a different temperament, I might find that ideal, but that's about other people and their lives, not me or mine, and as you said, not you or yours.Political correctness has done nothing to clear up misunderstandings or give different groups a sense of unifying with each other. It's had the opposite effect.
Being mindful of tone and terminology does not automatically equal political correctness. You and I are roughly the same age. There are many terms and slurs that were casually thrown around during our childhood and teen years that are no longer in vogue, and I personally don't feel that the world is a worse place for such things falling out of fashion. If anything, bringing awareness to how language is used has shed light on what were always underlying societal problems. Of course, that's only the beginning of a process, not the end or cure.I found this conversation rather invigorating. Not tiring at all. Thank you for the exchange and goodnight.
It occurs to me that invigorating or not, we are derailing this thread. If you'd care to continue to conversation, I'm game. Maybe either in private or starting another thread? Or if you'd like for this to be the end of it, I'll thank you for the discussion and see you elsewhere in the forums.14 -
He needs to get over it or be doomed to continual whining about how it's "unfriendly females" who are the problem and not his choice of venue, approach, or dudebro vibe. Also, many men who try to have these "polite" conversations of interest are neither as polite as they think they are nor good at reading social cues. The reason you see all these complaints is because a woman existing in public is not asking for attention, and it is not about the one guy who has done it, or the second guy who has done it, or even the third or fourth. It is a day in day out thing that ranges from unwelcome cat calling, to inappropriate private messages, invasive body language, refusal to back off, and tantruming when the woman--sorry, "female"--isn't flattered by the sheer wonder of their attention and ready to drop trow at the first penetrating gaze.
How some women's boyfriends treat them has absolutely nothing to do with any of this, unless you're going with the classic "nice guy," but I could do so much better, which is never nice, by the way. Treating women like objects and conquests to be won over who should be grateful that you (general "nice guy" you) deign to try to treat them like human beings (but really so you can get in their pants) and using the fact that some mentally or emotionally unhealthy people are attracted to unhealthy relationships as some sort of sign that you are due attention will never, ever get you what you want. And all but the emotionally damaged "females" can smell that attitude from a mile away and avoid it like the plague.
@DarkSinestra thanks for this and all the follow up posts.
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Men are the pursuers and women are there to be pursued. Stereotypes that are replicated and reinforced by males AND females alike. I mean there was a post I saw asking if men were afraid to ask for womens phone numbers in public. It did not nearly get the same response as this but same underlying societal issues. I'm game for another thread the dialog is excellent. Let's get all in those ideologies son!1
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LiftingRiot wrote: »LiftingRiot wrote: »PlaydohPants wrote: »CoffeeandDumbbells wrote: »the girls in my gym avoid dudes all the time. can you blame them for being closed off when they are being hit on, on the daily?
I have never seen anyone, male or female, hit on at my gym. We casually chat and nod and smile, but I have never heard anything creepy or anyone ask for a phone number or anything along those lines.
If it were just me not getting hit on I would chalk that up to something else, but there are some very pretty girls there and everyone is respectful.
So you haven't been getting the notes I left in your gym locker?
Maybe I am too dumb to realize I am being hit on??
Your words...
Or too ugly?
Or maybe at 5am people are not trying to pick up chicks?
Either way, I feel very comfortable and outside of catching a few guys using the mirrors for some gawking I haven't ever noticed anything. I think a good chunk of them are married and not 20. 20 year olds rarely get up that early
Just the right amount
Of?
It.1 -
The fact that you're specifically asking about women not being friendly means that you feel women are supposed to entertain you. If you want a woman to chat with you at the gym, bring your girlfriend. Most of us are there to workout.7
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Awesome topic ...I generally don't bother any of the women (half the reason is cuz I probably scare them) & I know they are there 2 work out ...I sometimes deliberately wont workout on a different machine that's next 2 them cuz I don't even want them thinking I'm trying 2 work out next 2 them & spark up a lame conversation (I know ,I'm way over thinking it) ....But when I workout in the morning I generally see the same people that have the same schedule ...Well one time I went 2 workout at night & seen this women that I usually see in the morning & I gave her the acknowledging "Hey u workout in the morning" kind of look (whatever that looks like) & got the look of death from her ....Wow!!! I wasnt making a move ...I wasn't gonna bother u ...I waw just saying "Hi"...So I left her alone & I say pretty much nothing now when I see her ...My point is I know it's tough 4 women cuz guys are gonna hit on u & some women just wanna work out & be left alone & some guys can't take a hint & if ya give them an inch they'll keep bothering u like a cat ya fed 1 time that won't leave ya alone ...But we're not all bad ......7
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I don't see why people are under and obligation to be friendly to other friendly people. I live my life for me and an adult should be OK with someone not reciprocating his or her friendliness.
And someone keeps bringing up how friendly people are at crossfit. That's a completely different story. Crossfit is essentially an hour-long class and people go for feedback and often companionship. I expect that when I go to Crossfit. However when I go to Fitworks, a regular gym, where I don't know a soul and I'm there to work out on my own, I don't expect to talk to people anywhere near as much as at crossfit.5 -
So ur one of the unfriendly females he's talking about2
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BrunetteRunner87 wrote: »I don't see why people are under and obligation to be friendly to other friendly people. I live my life for me and an adult should be OK with someone not reciprocating his or her friendliness.
And someone keeps bringing up how friendly people are at crossfit. That's a completely different story. Crossfit is essentially an hour-long class and people go for feedback and often companionship. I expect that when I go to Crossfit. However when I go to Fitworks, a regular gym, where I don't know a soul and I'm there to work out on my own, I don't expect to talk to people anywhere near as much as at crossfit.
Crossfit huh?
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