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Ketogenic overfeeding n=1 experiment by Wittrock
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Day 12 - 149.2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjdLiRDEd3E
The war on carbs... and babies at the zoo.
And finally, some bacon! 402 g fat, 93 g protein and 66 g carbs.
I get a kick out of how he refers to himself in the royal "we". I love it. It seems right when he does it. LOL
He's getting sick too.
It's seems like his weight gain is picking up. It will be interesting how the next few days play out.
Interesting enough, for the 4th week in a row, all my highest weight days this week again were the mornings after low carb/low calorie days and my biggest weight loss was post high carb/higher calorie days... So I am lost, ha.
Kinda different because I'm female and hormones play a larger part in the whole water retention thing but I have maintained the same weight for 7 days now. Literally the exact same weight (which even for me is quite unusual) yet my deficit is the same as it has been for several weeks. And for me, there's very little correlation between what I eat and immediate effect on the scale. There are small trends but really I just have to trust the scale will come right whenever it feels like it (other than once a month like clockwork across three days I know when the scale will definitely show a low) otherwise no idea.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »I am focusing on BMR because it is the only consistency. After that, TDEE could be anywhere from BMR up to 20K or more.
Do we have exercise tracking from Wittrock? If not, then we are assuming. My assumption is more conservative than yours coming from someone who maintains at about 1,800 before exercise also and is almost identical in size, though these are all assumptions and nothing more from both of us.
Dude, I am not sure why this is hard to understand. You have significantly less muscle than this guy. So it's not identical. Whats also not identical is this guy is active. BMR is not the thing you want compare. It's TDEE. If you want to compare your TDEE without exercise, there are a few threads with 100lb women (who don't exercise) that are at the same level in the gaining weight section. So be honest with yourself so we can move on... but you are no where near as fit as Wittrock. You do NOT have his body composition, nor his activity level. Comparing yourself, a person who is not 5% body fat, nor works out as much, is dumb.
We really can't compare Wittrock's TDEE because we do not know what it is. We can get a pretty accurate estimate of his BMR, though. Some on this debate argue he started with an incorrect estimate of 2K TDEE based on the notion that it isn't possible. As long as BMR is below what he is calculating for TDEE, then it is possible. THAT is why BMR is relevant. As to what his actual TDEE is? Many on this thread are arguing that he is wrong with 2,000; but only because it doesn't sound right to them. Does anyone have any actual evidence to determine his true TDEE? If not, then a number that fits within the possible range (2K) provided by the person who knows best what his daily activity looks like makes a lot of sense.
As to the similarities and differences based on best available information:
Witrock Me
Male Male
5'7" 5'7"
148.1 lbs. 155 lbs.
5% BF 13% BF
7.4 lb. fat 20.2 lb. fat
140.6 lbm 134.9 lbm
Wittrock has about 6 lbs. more lean mass than me and about 13 lbs. less fat.
Is there anybody on this thread with closer stats to Wittrock? I'm pretty sure I'm the closest here, yet people keep wanting to negate my similarities by arguing that various women with less weight and height have similar TDEE's as though they are somehow more comparable to Wittrock. The only conclusion I can reasonably draw from those circumstances is that we are all fairly close regardless of gender within a certain weight range and the most noticeable difference is activity.0 -
Day 12 - 149.2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjdLiRDEd3E
The war on carbs... and babies at the zoo.
And finally, some bacon! 402 g fat, 93 g protein and 66 g carbs.
I get a kick out of how he refers to himself in the royal "we". I love it. It seems right when he does it. LOL
He's getting sick too.
I just saw the peppy music of the intro as they walk through the zoo all smiles. I smirked and wondered how long that lasted with a sick kid that young. Or even how long it would last with a "well" kid that long. And then proceeded to choke on my coffee laughing when he comes back on with that look on his face like he'd just been tortured. Kids are awesome like that. Wait until you have more kiddos, dude.
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Day 12 - 149.2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjdLiRDEd3E
The war on carbs... and babies at the zoo.
And finally, some bacon! 402 g fat, 93 g protein and 66 g carbs.
I get a kick out of how he refers to himself in the royal "we". I love it. It seems right when he does it. LOL
He's getting sick too.
It's seems like his weight gain is picking up. It will be interesting how the next few days play out.
Interesting enough, for the 4th week in a row, all my highest weight days this week again were the mornings after low carb/low calorie days and my biggest weight loss was post high carb/higher calorie days... So I am lost, ha.
You're a freak of nature. A guy who has to cut with a high carb diet! LOL 
JK
It is a puzzle... I have no answer.0 -
baconslave wrote: »Day 12 - 149.2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjdLiRDEd3E
The war on carbs... and babies at the zoo.
And finally, some bacon! 402 g fat, 93 g protein and 66 g carbs.
I get a kick out of how he refers to himself in the royal "we". I love it. It seems right when he does it. LOL
He's getting sick too.
I just saw the peppy music of the intro as they walk through the zoo all smiles. I smirked and wondered how long that lasted with a sick kid that young. Or even how long it would last with a "well" kid that long. And then proceeded to choke on my coffee laughing when he comes back on with that look on his face like he'd just been tortured. Kids are awesome like that. Wait until you have more kiddos, dude.
Ha! I thought the same thing. He had a "sunshine and roses" attitude at first while filming animals, and I started thinking "I bet he's not filming the (sick) kids because they are getting antsy". LOL Boom.
IMO, the zoo is not for kids until they are toddlers, and then you better have your patience with you while you try to keep them near you in a busy public place. I barely remember seeing the animals when I had three kids under age 5. It was just kid watching, with your neck set to swivel.4 -
Day 12 - 149.2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjdLiRDEd3E
The war on carbs... and babies at the zoo.
And finally, some bacon! 402 g fat, 93 g protein and 66 g carbs.
I get a kick out of how he refers to himself in the royal "we". I love it. It seems right when he does it. LOL
He's getting sick too.
It's seems like his weight gain is picking up. It will be interesting how the next few days play out.
Interesting enough, for the 4th week in a row, all my highest weight days this week again were the mornings after low carb/low calorie days and my biggest weight loss was post high carb/higher calorie days... So I am lost, ha.
You're a freak of nature. A guy who has to cut with a high carb diet! LOL JK
It is a puzzle... I have no answer.
You would think glycogen depletion and lower calories would improve my weight loss. But I guess the additional stress is causing water retention. Either way, even with a bit of going over, I am losing about .8 to 1 lb per week. So I am cool with dealing with the crap of eating low carb 3 days a week.
ps- his fear mongering of carbs makes me sad. I love how it always carbs fault even though the healthiest places in the world are carb based. It's much better to suggest that carbs are at fault instead of lack of knowledge and personal accountability.4 -
Who are his sponsors?0
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Day 12 - 149.2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjdLiRDEd3E
The war on carbs... and babies at the zoo.
And finally, some bacon! 402 g fat, 93 g protein and 66 g carbs.
I get a kick out of how he refers to himself in the royal "we". I love it. It seems right when he does it. LOL
He's getting sick too.
It's seems like his weight gain is picking up. It will be interesting how the next few days play out.
Interesting enough, for the 4th week in a row, all my highest weight days this week again were the mornings after low carb/low calorie days and my biggest weight loss was post high carb/higher calorie days... So I am lost, ha.
You're a freak of nature. A guy who has to cut with a high carb diet! LOL JK
It is a puzzle... I have no answer.
You would think glycogen depletion and lower calories would improve my weight loss. But I guess the additional stress is causing water retention. Either way, even with a bit of going over, I am losing about .8 to 1 lb per week. So I am cool with dealing with the crap of eating low carb 3 days a week.
ps- his fear mongering of carbs makes me sad. I love how it always carbs fault even though the healthiest places in the world are carb based. It's much better to suggest that carbs are at fault instead of lack of knowledge and personal accountability.
Yeah. He really generalizes it to everybody a bit too much. For some of us, he's bang on. Others? Not as much.leanjogreen18 wrote: »Who are his sponsors?
I think its EAS and bodybuilding.com0 -
Day 13 - 147 lbs
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FRGG6GaL6Tw
He is sick and sounds terrible. Don't know how that affects things.
He also was high in carbs today. 90 something total carbs. Probably still mildly ketogenic.
He had a nice rant in defence of jimmy Moore. Well said.1 -
Day 14 -147.6 lbs
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=88ZPVQ5_qp8
He ate his last 2500 or so calories around dinner, otherwise nothing unusual. He is fighting off his cold but still hit the gym.1 -
Day 14 -147.6 lbshttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=88ZPVQ5_qp8
He ate his last 2500 or so calories around dinner, otherwise nothing unusual. He is fighting off his cold but still hit the gym.
Of course he did. Contrary to popular "wisdom", one does not earn and maintain that kind of physique by taking days off for every sniffle that comes your way. 2 -
Day 15 - 147 lbs
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pdZxPpTAiQc
He was back to his old positive self today. I enjoy this stuff. Avoiding the haters and striving to reach your own potential. Good stuff. A bit cheesy, but good stuff.
Speaking of cheese, he finally ate a small chunk today. Lol. Today his diet looked a bit more like a typical keto diet. Nuts, a roast with cabbage and carrots and BPC.... Although his BPC puts my tablespoon of coconut cream, with half a teaspoon of coconut oil, to shame.
Those ketoshakes he drinks... They may be a convenient way to get in more calories but it isn't the norm among low carbers. Most appear to prefer to eat their calories. Bacon and eggs instead of a morning shake.2 -
Ooohhh time to make my cup of tea and get comfy. This has been my little ritual before watching every video. I'm not looking forward to his daily updates ending :sad:0
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Christine_72 wrote: »Ooohhh time to make my cup of tea and get comfy. This has been my little ritual before watching every video. I'm not looking forward to his daily updates ending :sad:
It sounds like he is planning to vlog more often now. I might actually watch him if he continues. I generally skip vlogs because they are such a time suck. I can get the same information in a minute of reading as I can get from watching a 15 minute video. Usually.
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Christine_72 wrote: »Ooohhh time to make my cup of tea and get comfy. This has been my little ritual before watching every video. I'm not looking forward to his daily updates ending :sad:
It sounds like he is planning to vlog more often now. I might actually watch him if he continues. I generally skip vlogs because they are such a time suck. I can get the same information in a minute of reading as I can get from watching a 15 minute video. Usually.
Tell me about it. I dedicate a lot of time in Layne Nortons vlogs. But he is one of the few i put a lot of time into. He is actually educated in the field, has a big client base and has actually competed in both body building and power lifting. Something very few scientists and bloggers can say.0 -
I'm trying to find some overfeeding low carb studies to possibly explain why Wittrock is not gaining weight, and has actually lost a pound. There is not much out there.
Low insulin would be a popular target nowadays, but that is completely unproven. If high insulin contributes to obesity, I would say it varies between individuals and MAY be one factor among many. Yes, insulin is fat-sparing but from what I understand it is not a major fat builder. Insulin reduces fat oxidation and promotes lipogenesis, but it isn't making more fat unless there are excess calories /overfeeding.
Wittrock is eating excess calories, but his insulin is probably low. Perhaps keeping carbs low, fat high, and insulin low is one factor preventing lipogenesis?
All I'm finding is mice studies. Tenuous relevance.
A high-fat diet suppresses de novo lipogenesis and desaturation but not elongation and triglyceride synthesis in mice:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4242447/
More mice:
A high-fat, ketogenic diet induces a unique metabolic state in mice
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/6/E1724.full
"Abstract
Ketogenic diets have been used as an approach to weight loss on the basis of the theoretical advantage of a low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet. To evaluate the physiological and metabolic effects of such diets on weight we studied mice consuming a very-low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet (KD). This diet had profound effects on energy balance and gene expression. C57BL/6 mice animals were fed one of four diets: KD; a commonly used obesogenic high-fat, high-sucrose diet (HF); 66% caloric restriction (CR); and control chow (C). Mice on KD ate the same calories as mice on C and HF, but weight dropped and stabilized at 85% initial weight, similar to CR. This was consistent with increased energy expenditure seen in animals fed KD vs. those on C and CR. Microarray analysis of liver showed a unique pattern of gene expression in KD, with increased expression of genes in fatty acid oxidation pathways and reduction in lipid synthesis pathways. Animals made obese on HF and transitioned to KD lost all excess body weight, improved glucose tolerance, and increased energy expenditure. Analysis of key genes showed similar changes as those seen in lean animals placed directly on KD. Additionally, AMP kinase activity was increased, with a corresponding decrease in ACC activity. These data indicate that KD induces a unique metabolic state congruous with weight loss."
A very low carbohydrate ketogenic diet prevents the progression of hepatic steatosis caused by hyperglycemia in a juvenile obese mouse model
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3506983/
This next one is not ovefeeding, and is actually hypocaloric, but it discusses a change in lipid panels and weight as carb and fat content changes:
Effects of Step-Wise Increases in Dietary Carbohydrate on Circulating Saturated Fatty Acids and Palmitoleic Acid in Adults with Metabolic Syndrome
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
In A, weight loss slows as carbs increase BUT weight loss often slows as time goes by.
Bah. There just isn't much out there. Hopefully the LCHF researchers will look into hypercaloric LCHF diets soon.
In the mean time, it would be fascinating if Wittrock would do a moderate or high carb 21 day 4000kcal challenge. I suspect he never would though.2 -
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/74/6/737.full.pdf+html
This is the overfeed study I have. It takes lean and obese individual and evaluations DNL. But it's application to this, is probably very limited.
Also, insulin is not fat sparring. It inhibits lipolysis through the suppression of HSL. But inhibit =/= stop. It is muscle sparing though as it helps prevent protein degradation. Even KH studies showed that. Even with over 120g of sugar (and higher insulin) there wasn't a fat loss difference. And we can't forget that HSL is also suppressed by the enzyme Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) which is driven by dietary fat; also, carbs and fats increase Glucose-Dependent Insulintrophic Peptide which suppressed HSL. The latter being the reason why people used to think the worse combination of foods was carbs + fat as they activate all enzymes that suppress HSL (or at least that is how I understand it).1 -
I'm going to guess the weight loss is coming from an understatement of his TDEE combined with illness, even if was brief. I always lose more than expected when I'm sick and I doubt I'm the only one.
ETA: It's been interesting to follow, though!0 -
Day 16 - 145.4 lbs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aUaesp5llI
He's feeling better. His day had good meals that looked like what I would call typical keto fare. And he talked abs for a while.
Weight was at an all time low of 145.4 (from 148.2) but I wouldn't be surprised if it is from his cold. I imagine he'll bounce back up pretty soon.
I doubt his losses are from not meeting his TDEE. He seemed to really be striggling to get in those calories at first. I think he does eat a surprisely small amount for a guy of his stats. I don't know if it was actually 2000 kcal, but I would confidently guess it is under 3000.1
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