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Ketogenic overfeeding n=1 experiment by Wittrock

nvmomketo
nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
edited November 15 in Debate Club
The ketogenic diet is thought by some to make weight loss easier, and weight gain more difficult, due to its macro make up. Others debate that it is merely the effect of the the appetite suppressing effect that accompanies a LCHF diet. (And then yet others debate is there is not any appetite reducing effect at all.)

There have been very few, if any, studies to determine if one gains slowly while overfeeding on a ketogenic diet. There have been a few n=1 self experiments such as Feltham's (Smash the fat) 5000kcal experiment with higher carb and LCHF diets. It's not very scientific, and people say he could be lying, so his results are not accepted as fact - results being a gain during the high carb stage and not much at all in the low carb stage.
http://live.smashthefat.com/5000-calorie-carb-challenge-day-21/

Jason Wittrock (body builder, model, physique competitor, trainer sponsored by bodybuilder.com) is doing a 4000 kcal overfeeding ketogenic challenge right now. He's been keto for over a year and generally eats about 2000kcal per day. He used the "bod pod" to find his body fat % beforehand, weighed himself, and also did a lipid panel, so he knows where he is starting from.

Wittrock's just a few days in, and is planning on going to 21 days. I thought some of you might be interested in watching his progress. He's eating about 2000 kcal per day extra so he could be gaining up to 4lbs per week. Maybe just a gain of 2lbs per week if he has severely underestimated his usual daily caloric intake and is only eating 1000 kcal extra per day. That would be surprising though since this is a guy who makes his living being lean.

If indeed there is something to the theory that it is harder to gain fat on a ketogenic diet, he may gain very little in the next 3 weeks, rather than the expected 6-12 pounds. This could be interesting to follow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRop_ltYUlk&list=PLfR-8rhslnU9rTQhdJITphrswXFkOJWg8
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Replies

  • gwenmf
    gwenmf Posts: 888 Member
    I'm interested in seeing his results as well.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    At day 5 he's up close to 2 lbs, I believe.

    ... And pretty sick of eating that much too. LOL
    Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
    I'll be interested to see his results, considering that 2800/day average of CKD food put me at 2.5 lbs./week gained. Individual metabolic processes can be a *kitten* to nail down.

    So true.

    For me, what irritates, is that my metabolic processes don't seem to be linear. There seem to be a few spots where I can change my caloric intake by just a couple of hundred calories but the impact on my weight is large. It's like there is some sort of tipping point for me, in gaining and losing.
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    How's he calculating his energy expenditure?
  • wackyfunster
    wackyfunster Posts: 944 Member
    This has been pretty well established scientifically already. Even on a 0-cal diet you can still store fat (via the acylation stimulating protein pathway), and will still produce insulin (via the same pathway). I would expect that there would in fact be a higher proportion of fat:muscle gain on a low carb caloric surplus vs. high carb (assuming identical energy intake) as the level of insulin production via ASP is fairly minimal, so muscle protein synthesis would be dramatically lower in the low-carb scenario.
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    wackyfunster wrote: »
    This has been pretty well established scientifically already. Even on a 0-cal diet you can still store fat (via the acylation stimulating protein pathway), and will still produce insulin (via the same pathway). I would expect that there would in fact be a higher proportion of fat:muscle gain on a low carb caloric surplus vs. high carb (assuming identical energy intake) as the level of insulin production via ASP is fairly minimal, so muscle protein synthesis would be dramatically lower in the low-carb scenario.

    That was my experience. I got far fatter on far fewer kcals when CKD bulking. Since then, I've decided that I'll be running more like 40/30/30 p/f/c on bulks, though I do have to time my carbs around activity, or I end up looking like bloated dog *kitten*.
  • abrittonanastas
    abrittonanastas Posts: 1 Member
    TR0berts wrote: »
    Wittrock maintains at 2000/day? How tiny is this guy?

    His first weigh in at the start of this challenge was 148 lbs, and says the most he has ever weighed is 160. He is definitely smaller than he looks... granted, he also says his body fat is 5%!
  • Hamsibian
    Hamsibian Posts: 1,388 Member
    I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!
  • wackyfunster
    wackyfunster Posts: 944 Member
    Hamsibian wrote: »
    I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!

    Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.
  • Hamsibian
    Hamsibian Posts: 1,388 Member
    edited February 2017
    I'm not really bulking at this point for health issues. I've been able to do some strength training in the past, so I know I'll get there when I can. I have a lot of food sensitivities, and everything you mentioned except for oil is a no no lol. I eat fatty meats and some starchy vegetables (as long as im not keto, closer to100-120g carbs ). Thanks for the suggestions though, I really appreciate any help I can get! :)
    wackyfunster wrote: »
    Hamsibian wrote: »
    I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!

    Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.

  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    TR0berts wrote: »
    Wittrock maintains at 2000/day? How tiny is this guy?

    He's pretty short, only 5"7

  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    How's he calculating his energy expenditure?

    I think he's just continuing doing what he's doing. Status quo. Lifting most days. Not anything very exact
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    edited February 2017
    abrittonanastas wrote: »
    TR0berts wrote: »
    Wittrock maintains at 2000/day? How tiny is this guy?

    His first weigh in at the start of this challenge was 148 lbs, and says the most he has ever weighed is 160. He is definitely smaller than he looks... granted, he also says his body fat is 5%!

    He's not big. 5'7" I think. the bod pod put him at just over 5% fat, although I think he guessed he would be a bit higher. He's pretty lean.

    ETA Oops. Just saw your response @Christine_72 :)
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    edited February 2017
    wackyfunster wrote: »
    billglitch wrote: »
    i have been doing keto/LCHF for just over a year. I have been able to reduce my calories to 1200 to 1500 without being hungry. I have done NO exercise and have not had cravings or side effects. I have cheated from time to time. I lost 120 pounds in 11 months. Its working for me. Since then I have been experimenting to some degree with increase in cals and carbs. The experimenting has definitely slowed my losing weight and caused me to be in a plateau for about a month. I have found that LCHF is very unforgiving if you stray...I am ok with that as it helps me stay on track. When i reach my goal i will increase my carbs to some degree and my cals too, because my experimenting has taught me what i can and cant do. Here is the deal for me, I dont care what the science says or if others agree or disagree with me or LCHF eating. I have another 25 pounds to go and I am not switching horses midstream.

    IMO it doesn't have anything to do with keto or carbs or anything. Ketogenic diets _tend_ to produce better appetite control at a given caloric intake (especially if you are loading up on non-starchy veggies). I am eating ~3400 cals/day right now, and am pretty sure I would die if I tried to do that on a low-carb diet. I know my digestive system would riot from all that fat.

    IMO if you dropped >10 lbs/month with something then it obviously works for you. You can safely ignore anyone saying it doesn't work, as their argument is not relevant to you :)

    In regards to this experiment, he is tackling the common misconception that you can't gain weight on a ketogenic diet "because insulin and stuff," which has already been thoroughly debunked.

    I agree he is looking at the myth that one can't gain on keto, but he could also be potentially addressing "Do you gain the same on keto?". He says he is eating a 2000kcal surplus. I'm sure that's not exact but if it is, that's an extra 14000kcal per week which translates into 4 lbs gained per week. That's 12 lbs by day 21. If he gains less than that I see two possible conclusions:

    1. He severely underestimated his normal caloric intake or lied about it. Even if he does normally eat 3000 kcal per day (a lot for a 150 lb guy) then he would gain 2 lbs per week, or 6 lbs.

    2. Something about the ketogenic diet makes weight gain harder, and weight loss easier. A least in some people.... He is not one of those stereotypical IR people. I've heard him discuss how metabolically healthy he is. He's far from IR, and those with IR tend to benefit the most. Should be interesting...

    That a ketogenic diet slows weight gain and eases weight loss is even debated among low carbers. Some saw no real difference, but stuck with LCHF due to health improvements or decreased appetite. Others, like me, suspect there is something to it (for some people) that made losing easier and faster than it should have been.

    I'm not sure what you meant by the bolded. Insulin does cause weight gain. This is best seen in T1D's. Insulin is a growth hormone otherwise body builders wouldn't try to keep in elevated. It's not the sole driving force behind everyone's weight gain but it does play a role.

    In my own n=1, I became IR after a round of steroids for autoimmune issues. My diet was not ideal (candy a few times per week) but I was a normal weight. After I became prediabetic (which was fairly sudden) I put on over 20lbs in a year. I write this to explain why I think there is something to the insulin theory, beyond watching what happens to T1Ds who take a lot of insulin.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    wackyfunster wrote: »
    Hamsibian wrote: »
    I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!

    Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.

    That's a bit of a myth too. It is harder to gain muscle than if you have elevated insulin, but elevated leucine from a ketogenic diet appears to pick up much of the slack. It may not be quite as good, but its pretty close.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,427 MFP Moderator
    edited February 2017
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    wackyfunster wrote: »
    Hamsibian wrote: »
    I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!

    Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.

    That's a bit of a myth too. It is harder to gain muscle than if you have elevated insulin, but elevated leucine from a ketogenic diet appears to pick up much of the slack. It may not be quite as good, but its pretty close.

    Both leucine and training drive muscle protein synthesis and activate mTOR. The key is protein synthesis to be great than protein degradation (something insulin supports since it's anticatabolic). That would occur at a much higher rate with a higher carb diet; it's why carbs are king of bulk. This is why you have TKD/CKD diets (which aren't always super effective).

    While these are interesting, I am not sure how much insight it will provide. The guy is pretty lean which gives him an advantage already, and it's not controlled. But I will watch it when I get home.
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    wackyfunster wrote: »
    Hamsibian wrote: »
    I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!

    Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.

    That's a bit of a myth too. It is harder to gain muscle than if you have elevated insulin, but elevated leucine from a ketogenic diet appears to pick up much of the slack. It may not be quite as good, but its pretty close.

    Both leucine and training drive muscle protein synthesis and activate mTOR. The key is protein synthesis to be great than protein degradation (something insulin supports since it's anticatabolic). That would occur at a much higher rate with a higher carb diet; it's why carbs are king of bulk. This is why you have TKD/CKD diets (which aren't always super effective).

    I swear, just for *kitten* and giggles I'm going to run my next bulk on a traditional Highlander diet. Funny thing is, it sounds a whole lot like modern lifter food. Milks, cheeses, barley, oats, red meat, fish, kale, and onions and turnips occasionally. Clearly my ancestors were onto something. No wonder they were reported to be far larger than the English and Indians. xD
  • amusedmonkey
    amusedmonkey Posts: 10,330 Member
    That's interesting. He's afraid he won't be able to eat that much on a keto diet. I would lend him my fatty food appetite if I could.

    What I'm interested to see is if his performance/energy improves with a higher calorie allowance, plus cholesterol.
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    edited February 2017
    psuLemon wrote: »
    Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    wackyfunster wrote: »
    Hamsibian wrote: »
    I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!

    Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.

    That's a bit of a myth too. It is harder to gain muscle than if you have elevated insulin, but elevated leucine from a ketogenic diet appears to pick up much of the slack. It may not be quite as good, but its pretty close.

    Both leucine and training drive muscle protein synthesis and activate mTOR. The key is protein synthesis to be great than protein degradation (something insulin supports since it's anticatabolic). That would occur at a much higher rate with a higher carb diet; it's why carbs are king of bulk. This is why you have TKD/CKD diets (which aren't always super effective).

    I swear, just for *kitten* and giggles I'm going to run my next bulk on a traditional Highlander diet. Funny thing is, it sounds a whole lot like modern lifter food. Milks, cheeses, barley, oats, red meat, fish, kale, and onions and turnips occasionally. Clearly my ancestors were onto something. No wonder they were reported to be far larger than the English and Indians. xD

    I am just worried on my bulk, that I won't be able to eat more carbs. I already struggle with 320g on my cut... I think i might just say screw it and eat blocks of cheese with a side of ice cream.

    Yet another reason that I love my northern Euro lineage more every day. I am able to process lactose just as well as any other sugar.
  • baconslave
    baconslave Posts: 7,018 Member
    amusedmonkey wrote: »
    That's interesting. He's afraid he won't be able to eat that much on a keto diet. I would lend him my fatty food appetite if I could.

    What I'm interested to see is if his performance/energy improves with a higher calorie allowance, plus cholesterol.

    Looks like he's making the difference with avocado oil, macadamia nuts, double obese keto coffee, and shakes stuffed with oils, heavy cream and peanut butter. But still...I imagine he's going to get real tired of that stuff really fast. He went on and on about how he killed it in the gym on Day 6 (probably from the cals).





    Also, he lost one of the lb. gained in his day 6 video though. Interesting, but I wouldn't make much of it. He probably just reigned a bit on the porcelain throne. :wink: From all that fat. Dayyyum. (This is coming from a person who lost all their weight on keto, and is still low-carb.) I just remember what happened when I had CO in the coffee too many days in a row. :confounded:

  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,427 MFP Moderator
    baconslave wrote: »
    amusedmonkey wrote: »
    That's interesting. He's afraid he won't be able to eat that much on a keto diet. I would lend him my fatty food appetite if I could.

    What I'm interested to see is if his performance/energy improves with a higher calorie allowance, plus cholesterol.

    Looks like he's making the difference with avocado oil, macadamia nuts, double obese keto coffee, and shakes stuffed with oils, heavy cream and peanut butter. But still...I imagine he's going to get real tired of that stuff really fast. He went on and on about how he killed it in the gym on Day 6 (probably from the cals).





    Also, he lost one of the lb. gained in his day 6 video though. Interesting, but I wouldn't make much of it. He probably just reigned a bit on the porcelain throne. :wink: From all that fat. Dayyyum. (This is coming from a person who lost all their weight on keto, and is still low-carb.) I just remember what happened when I had CO in the coffee too many days in a row. :confounded:

    Interestingly enough, weight loss does occur while on a surplus... it's no different than those who gain during weight loss. There are several people who have seen large losses (like 3 or 4 lbs) after a weekend of eating all the foodz and drinking.
  • baconslave
    baconslave Posts: 7,018 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    baconslave wrote: »
    amusedmonkey wrote: »
    That's interesting. He's afraid he won't be able to eat that much on a keto diet. I would lend him my fatty food appetite if I could.

    What I'm interested to see is if his performance/energy improves with a higher calorie allowance, plus cholesterol.

    Looks like he's making the difference with avocado oil, macadamia nuts, double obese keto coffee, and shakes stuffed with oils, heavy cream and peanut butter. But still...I imagine he's going to get real tired of that stuff really fast. He went on and on about how he killed it in the gym on Day 6 (probably from the cals).





    Also, he lost one of the lb. gained in his day 6 video though. Interesting, but I wouldn't make much of it. He probably just reigned a bit on the porcelain throne. :wink: From all that fat. Dayyyum. (This is coming from a person who lost all their weight on keto, and is still low-carb.) I just remember what happened when I had CO in the coffee too many days in a row. :confounded:

    Interestingly enough, weight loss does occur while on a surplus... it's no different than those who gain during weight loss. There are several people who have seen large losses (like 3 or 4 lbs) after a weekend of eating all the foodz and drinking.

    Yeah. I have heard so much about that from many, many people, but have never once experienced that myself. Though I get it's a thing.
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