Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Ketogenic overfeeding n=1 experiment by Wittrock
Replies
-
baconslave wrote: »baconslave wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »That's interesting. He's afraid he won't be able to eat that much on a keto diet. I would lend him my fatty food appetite if I could.
What I'm interested to see is if his performance/energy improves with a higher calorie allowance, plus cholesterol.
Looks like he's making the difference with avocado oil, macadamia nuts, double obese keto coffee, and shakes stuffed with oils, heavy cream and peanut butter. But still...I imagine he's going to get real tired of that stuff really fast. He went on and on about how he killed it in the gym on Day 6 (probably from the cals).
Also, he lost one of the lb. gained in his day 6 video though. Interesting, but I wouldn't make much of it. He probably just reigned a bit on the porcelain throne.
From all that fat. Dayyyum. (This is coming from a person who lost all their weight on keto, and is still low-carb.) I just remember what happened when I had CO in the coffee too many days in a row. 
Interestingly enough, weight loss does occur while on a surplus... it's no different than those who gain during weight loss. There are several people who have seen large losses (like 3 or 4 lbs) after a weekend of eating all the foodz and drinking.
Yeah. I have heard so much about that from many, many people, but have never once experienced that myself. Though I get it's a thing.
Out of curiosity, have you ever bulked?0 -
Interestingly enough, weight loss does occur while on a surplus... it's no different than those who gain during weight loss. There are several people who have seen large losses (like 3 or 4 lbs) after a weekend of eating all the foodz and drinking.
This happens to me (weight loss after eating a lot of food). But 100% of the time it's when I ate so much that it made me crap a lot hahaha (i.e. basically ate myself sick).2 -
So just quickly going through some of the data, I am not a huge fan of not controlling protein. He is eating almost 2x in protein from LCHF compared to HCLF. Also, it' bothers me (this is more pedantic) when people try to equate LBM as muscle (found in the below). But those are very initial observations and I still have to watch the videos
http://live.smashthefat.com/the-21-day-5000-calorie-carb-challenge/1 -
baconslave wrote: »baconslave wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »That's interesting. He's afraid he won't be able to eat that much on a keto diet. I would lend him my fatty food appetite if I could.
What I'm interested to see is if his performance/energy improves with a higher calorie allowance, plus cholesterol.
Looks like he's making the difference with avocado oil, macadamia nuts, double obese keto coffee, and shakes stuffed with oils, heavy cream and peanut butter. But still...I imagine he's going to get real tired of that stuff really fast. He went on and on about how he killed it in the gym on Day 6 (probably from the cals).
Also, he lost one of the lb. gained in his day 6 video though. Interesting, but I wouldn't make much of it. He probably just reigned a bit on the porcelain throne. From all that fat. Dayyyum. (This is coming from a person who lost all their weight on keto, and is still low-carb.) I just remember what happened when I had CO in the coffee too many days in a row.
Interestingly enough, weight loss does occur while on a surplus... it's no different than those who gain during weight loss. There are several people who have seen large losses (like 3 or 4 lbs) after a weekend of eating all the foodz and drinking.
Yeah. I have heard so much about that from many, many people, but have never once experienced that myself. Though I get it's a thing.
Out of curiosity, have you ever bulked?
No. I decided to just recomp. I thought about it, but I didn't think I could handle the psychology of the raise in the scale. I'm not ready to quit clutching the reigns that tightly yet.
I have had weekends where I've eaten all the things. I just gain temporarily or stay the same depending on what I've eaten/drunk and the magnitude of the injustice I've perpetrated on my body.0 -
So just quickly going through some of the data, I am not a huge fan of not controlling protein. He is eating almost 2x in protein from LCHF compared to HCLF. Also, it' bothers me (this is more pedantic) when people try to equate LBM as muscle (found in the below). But those are very initial observations and I still have to watch the videos
http://live.smashthefat.com/the-21-day-5000-calorie-carb-challenge/
I know... It's a shame not everything was kept exactly even. These n=1 raise interesting questions, and they make me think, but they don't answer anything definitively. Nutrition science is a hard one to pin anything down even when you have a large test pool and great resources. People all vary so much...0 -
baconslave wrote: »baconslave wrote: »baconslave wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »That's interesting. He's afraid he won't be able to eat that much on a keto diet. I would lend him my fatty food appetite if I could.
What I'm interested to see is if his performance/energy improves with a higher calorie allowance, plus cholesterol.
Looks like he's making the difference with avocado oil, macadamia nuts, double obese keto coffee, and shakes stuffed with oils, heavy cream and peanut butter. But still...I imagine he's going to get real tired of that stuff really fast. He went on and on about how he killed it in the gym on Day 6 (probably from the cals).
Also, he lost one of the lb. gained in his day 6 video though. Interesting, but I wouldn't make much of it. He probably just reigned a bit on the porcelain throne. From all that fat. Dayyyum. (This is coming from a person who lost all their weight on keto, and is still low-carb.) I just remember what happened when I had CO in the coffee too many days in a row.
Interestingly enough, weight loss does occur while on a surplus... it's no different than those who gain during weight loss. There are several people who have seen large losses (like 3 or 4 lbs) after a weekend of eating all the foodz and drinking.
Yeah. I have heard so much about that from many, many people, but have never once experienced that myself. Though I get it's a thing.
Out of curiosity, have you ever bulked?
No. I decided to just recomp. I thought about it, but I didn't think I could handle the psychology of the raise in the scale. I'm not ready to quit clutching the reigns that tightly yet.
I have had weekends where I've eaten all the things. I just gain temporarily or stay the same depending on what I've eaten/drunk and the magnitude of the injustice I've perpetrated on my body.
I can't blame you. Intentionally gaining fat is a very difficult battle for some and requires significant trust in the process. It also requires to have a very solid training program and nutrition to optimize your goals.1 -
Day 7 and he's back to where he started: 148.2 lbs.4
-
Day 7 and he's back to where he started: 148.2 lbs.
That's interesting. Could it be that some people just don't digest fat as well, or maybe even compensate with increased NEAT? (watch the overfeeding documentary Why are Thin People not Fat). That's why weight gain was not one of the things I was interested to see. I know it happens. I inadvertently gained weight on keto because I had trouble keeping the calories down and my energy up enough to have a comparable NEAT. My main interest is, would more calories on keto provide more energy and performance? Seeing as fat is a slow source of energy I mean.1 -
I just started watching his channel, last week. It's been interesting.1
-
amusedmonkey wrote: »Day 7 and he's back to where he started: 148.2 lbs.
That's interesting. Could it be that some people just don't digest fat as well, or maybe even compensate with increased NEAT? (watch the overfeeding documentary Why are Thin People not Fat). That's why weight gain was not one of the things I was interested to see. I know it happens. I inadvertently gained weight on keto because I had trouble keeping the calories down and my energy up enough to have a comparable NEAT. My main interest is, would more calories on keto provide more energy and performance? Seeing as fat is a slow source of energy I mean.
He was also commenting that he was thirsty and drinking a lot. Dehydration? I wouldn't be surprised if he is back up a pound for day 8.
0 -
I love his channel. I've been following his experiment but I think he underestimated his TDEE. I've put his stats in calculators and got around 3,000 as opposed to 2,000. But as @nvmomketo stated, even with that TDEE and a 1,000 cal surplus over 21 days then he should still gain at least 6 lbs according to CICO. If he gains less than that then there might be something to this keto "fad" that makes it defy that laws of CICO 2
-
I love his channel. I've been following his experiment but I think he underestimated his TDEE. I've put his stats in calculators and got around 3,000 as opposed to 2,000. But as @nvmomketo stated, even with that TDEE and a 1,000 cal surplus over 21 days then he should still gain at least 6 lbs according to CICO. If he gains less than that then there might be something to this keto "fad" that makes it defy that laws of CICO
If he gains less it's just likely that he didn't calculate energy expenditure correctly and additionally, energy input can effect energy output. It's possible that increasing calories significantly can cause an increase to energy expenditure through NEAT and even voluntary activity increases.9 -
I love his channel. I've been following his experiment but I think he underestimated his TDEE. I've put his stats in calculators and got around 3,000 as opposed to 2,000. But as @nvmomketo stated, even with that TDEE and a 1,000 cal surplus over 21 days then he should still gain at least 6 lbs according to CICO. If he gains less than that then there might be something to this keto "fad" that makes it defy that laws of CICO
If he gains less it's just likely that he didn't calculate energy expenditure correctly and additionally, energy input can effect energy output. It's possible that increasing calories significantly can cause an increase to energy expenditure through NEAT and even voluntary activity increases.
I think this is something that is often overlooked. I had very much this experience when I moved to maintenance. My maintenance ended up being quite a bit higher than I thought it would be given the rate I was losing at when I made that move.
According to the math and my real world data, my maintenance looked to be around 2,400 calories but as I increased calories, I had more energy...did more things...involuntary fidgeting increased...I was always restless and couldn't sit still through movies, t.v. shows, sporting events, etc...training improved and I could go longer and harder, etc. I ended up leveling off at around 3,000 calories.9 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »I love his channel. I've been following his experiment but I think he underestimated his TDEE. I've put his stats in calculators and got around 3,000 as opposed to 2,000. But as @nvmomketo stated, even with that TDEE and a 1,000 cal surplus over 21 days then he should still gain at least 6 lbs according to CICO. If he gains less than that then there might be something to this keto "fad" that makes it defy that laws of CICO
If he gains less it's just likely that he didn't calculate energy expenditure correctly and additionally, energy input can effect energy output. It's possible that increasing calories significantly can cause an increase to energy expenditure through NEAT and even voluntary activity increases.
I think this is something that is often overlooked. I had very much this experience when I moved to maintenance. My maintenance ended up being quite a bit higher than I thought it would be given the rate I was losing at when I made that move.
According to the math and my real world data, my maintenance looked to be around 2,400 calories but as I increased calories, I had more energy...did more things...involuntary fidgeting increased...I was always restless and couldn't sit still through movies, t.v. shows, sporting events, etc...training improved and I could go longer and harder, etc. I ended up leveling off at around 3,000 calories.
Absolutely, and I've seen this with other people as well. I've had maintenance ranges all the way from 2700 on the low end up to 3400 for a sustained period.6 -
I love his channel. I've been following his experiment but I think he underestimated his TDEE. I've put his stats in calculators and got around 3,000 as opposed to 2,000. But as @nvmomketo stated, even with that TDEE and a 1,000 cal surplus over 21 days then he should still gain at least 6 lbs according to CICO. If he gains less than that then there might be something to this keto "fad" that makes it defy that laws of CICO
If he gains less it's just likely that he didn't calculate energy expenditure correctly and additionally, energy input can effect energy output. It's possible that increasing calories significantly can cause an increase to energy expenditure through NEAT and even voluntary activity increases.
My experience as well with a bulk. Most folks have a natural maintenance window. I had to eat 300 calories over and above maintenance (I had maintained for over a year, so I had a good idea where I would maintain) before I started gaining reliably. And I wasn't doing low carb and a good portion of my extra calories came from carbs, including refined sugar.1 -
I love his channel. I've been following his experiment but I think he underestimated his TDEE. I've put his stats in calculators and got around 3,000 as opposed to 2,000. But as @nvmomketo stated, even with that TDEE and a 1,000 cal surplus over 21 days then he should still gain at least 6 lbs according to CICO. If he gains less than that then there might be something to this keto "fad" that makes it defy that laws of CICO
If he gains less it's just likely that he didn't calculate energy expenditure correctly and additionally, energy input can effect energy output. It's possible that increasing calories significantly can cause an increase to energy expenditure through NEAT and even voluntary activity increases.
At 189lbs, I am struggling to understand how his TDEE was only 2000 calories. Most women I know are at those levels.
Also, I could have sworn I have seen a discussion from either Brad Schoenfeld, Eric Helms, Alan Aragon that discuss metabolic changes driven by an overfed state. Potentially, it was discussed in the DNL carb overfeed studies, but I can't seem to find it.
Side note, I did giggle when Jason tries to suggest that dietary fat is less likely to convert to fat, compared to carbs and protein.5 -
I love his channel. I've been following his experiment but I think he underestimated his TDEE. I've put his stats in calculators and got around 3,000 as opposed to 2,000. But as @nvmomketo stated, even with that TDEE and a 1,000 cal surplus over 21 days then he should still gain at least 6 lbs according to CICO. If he gains less than that then there might be something to this keto "fad" that makes it defy that laws of CICO
If he gains less it's just likely that he didn't calculate energy expenditure correctly and additionally, energy input can effect energy output. It's possible that increasing calories significantly can cause an increase to energy expenditure through NEAT and even voluntary activity increases.
At 189lbs, I am struggling to understand how his TDEE was only 2000 calories. Most women I know are at those levels.
Also, I could have sworn I have seen a discussion from either Brad Schoenfeld, Eric Helms, Alan Aragon that discuss metabolic changes driven by an overfed state. Potentially, it was discussed in the DNL carb overfeed studies, but I can't seem to find it.
Side note, I did giggle when Jason tries to suggest that dietary fat is less likely to convert to fat, compared to carbs and protein.
He is 148 lbs. But even that sounds very low. I'm the same weight and not quite as lean (~10% I believe), although taller at 5'10", and my sedentary, sitting on my *kitten* all day in an office maintenance calories are 2300.4 -
My n=1 is that I can't judge what I have lost or gained in a week or even two. It takes my body a while to "catch up" with what I've been putting in it. So we can't draw any conclusions at this point.
I do also wonder if he tracks his intake accurately just generally or has he only started for this experiment. In which case he could have been grossly underestimating his intake. 2000 is very low.5 -
The_Enginerd wrote: »I love his channel. I've been following his experiment but I think he underestimated his TDEE. I've put his stats in calculators and got around 3,000 as opposed to 2,000. But as @nvmomketo stated, even with that TDEE and a 1,000 cal surplus over 21 days then he should still gain at least 6 lbs according to CICO. If he gains less than that then there might be something to this keto "fad" that makes it defy that laws of CICO
If he gains less it's just likely that he didn't calculate energy expenditure correctly and additionally, energy input can effect energy output. It's possible that increasing calories significantly can cause an increase to energy expenditure through NEAT and even voluntary activity increases.
At 189lbs, I am struggling to understand how his TDEE was only 2000 calories. Most women I know are at those levels.
Also, I could have sworn I have seen a discussion from either Brad Schoenfeld, Eric Helms, Alan Aragon that discuss metabolic changes driven by an overfed state. Potentially, it was discussed in the DNL carb overfeed studies, but I can't seem to find it.
Side note, I did giggle when Jason tries to suggest that dietary fat is less likely to convert to fat, compared to carbs and protein.
He is 148 lbs. But even that sounds very low. I'm the same weight and not quite as lean (~10% I believe), although taller at 5'10", and my sedentary, sitting on my *kitten* all day in an office maintenance calories are 2300.
Looking at those two links, he started this whole experiment at 189. Starting with LCHF. And finished at 213.
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/
http://live.smashthefat.com/5000-calorie-carb-challenge-day-21/
NVM, I was conflating two different N=11 -
wackyfunster wrote: »I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!
Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.
My burning question is "but why" LOL1 -
wackyfunster wrote: »I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!
Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.
My burning question is "but why" LOL
I did it in a misguided attempt to just keep eating as I had been when losing weight, just with more kcals. I love keto foods, but not enough to ever do that stupid *kitten* again. When a 5'10" man gains 2.5 lbs./week on 2800/day, something is horribly *kitten* up.1 -
I love his channel. I've been following his experiment but I think he underestimated his TDEE. I've put his stats in calculators and got around 3,000 as opposed to 2,000. But as @nvmomketo stated, even with that TDEE and a 1,000 cal surplus over 21 days then he should still gain at least 6 lbs according to CICO. If he gains less than that then there might be something to this keto "fad" that makes it defy that laws of CICO
If he gains less it's just likely that he didn't calculate energy expenditure correctly and additionally, energy input can effect energy output. It's possible that increasing calories significantly can cause an increase to energy expenditure through NEAT and even voluntary activity increases.
At 189lbs, I am struggling to understand how his TDEE was only 2000 calories. Most women I know are at those levels.
Also, I could have sworn I have seen a discussion from either Brad Schoenfeld, Eric Helms, Alan Aragon that discuss metabolic changes driven by an overfed state. Potentially, it was discussed in the DNL carb overfeed studies, but I can't seem to find it.
Side note, I did giggle when Jason tries to suggest that dietary fat is less likely to convert to fat, compared to carbs and protein.
I was kind of wondering about a 2,000 calorie maintenance too...my wife is 5'2" or 5'3" and 125-130 and she maintains around 2,300 or so...granted she is also a runner.1 -
lol- That's half the point of bulking and why I love it- all the glorious carbs- I am pretty consistently low carb outside of my bulk- so it's game day baby game day when it comes time to bulk.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »wackyfunster wrote: »I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!
Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.
My burning question is "but why" LOL
I did it in a misguided attempt to just keep eating as I had been when losing weight, just with more kcals. I love keto foods, but not enough to ever do that stupid *kitten* again. When a 5'10" man gains 2.5 lbs./week on 2800/day, something is horribly *kitten* up.
It just makes me sad thinking about literally all that chicken and veggie- barf.cwolfman13 wrote: »I love his channel. I've been following his experiment but I think he underestimated his TDEE. I've put his stats in calculators and got around 3,000 as opposed to 2,000. But as @nvmomketo stated, even with that TDEE and a 1,000 cal surplus over 21 days then he should still gain at least 6 lbs according to CICO. If he gains less than that then there might be something to this keto "fad" that makes it defy that laws of CICO
If he gains less it's just likely that he didn't calculate energy expenditure correctly and additionally, energy input can effect energy output. It's possible that increasing calories significantly can cause an increase to energy expenditure through NEAT and even voluntary activity increases.
At 189lbs, I am struggling to understand how his TDEE was only 2000 calories. Most women I know are at those levels.
Also, I could have sworn I have seen a discussion from either Brad Schoenfeld, Eric Helms, Alan Aragon that discuss metabolic changes driven by an overfed state. Potentially, it was discussed in the DNL carb overfeed studies, but I can't seem to find it.
Side note, I did giggle when Jason tries to suggest that dietary fat is less likely to convert to fat, compared to carbs and protein.
I was kind of wondering about a 2,000 calorie maintenance too...my wife is 5'2" or 5'3" and 125-130 and she maintains around 2,300 or so...granted she is also a runner.
That is MIGHTY low- I can maintain between 1700-2000 reasonably well- I'm 5'8" and not a runner. Every time I tell the guys at my gym what my cutting calories are they freak out- they cut on what my bulking numbers are.
damn this vagina of mine.1 -
LOL
I would guess he should be around 2700 kcal. 5'8", 35 year old, 148 lb male who works out about 5-7 days per week - I'd say that's moderately active.
Truly doubling his calories would probably be more like 5000 kcal. Like Feltham (Smash the fat guy).
I do like how he is raising his calories as Phinney and Volek (Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance) would probably advise. He's got his protein goal in grams. It seems to often be between 110-140 g. I imagine it stays pretty close to that regardless of his caloric intake. Perhaps a bit lower.
Carbs is about 5%, but mainly he is pushing to stay under 50g net carbs in order to stay in ketosis. He seems to be succeeding well according to the blood monitor and ketostix.
He's using fat to fill in the rest. Often upwards of 200+g.0 -
Well, on day 8 he is now a 147 lb man instead of 148. That surprised me I thought he'd be up a bit and not over a pound below where he started.2
-
Well, on day 8 he is now a 147 lb man instead of 148. That surprised me I thought he'd be up a bit and not over a pound below where he started.
Not really surprising. What I find surprising is that for some reason, my 3 heaviest days of the week are the morning after my low carb days and my lowest are the mornings after my carbs are the highest. Haven't figured that one out, lol. Although, it could be the ice cream.
I watched the first 4 days and it seems interesting. It should be noted, that guy is lean as hell, so calorie partitioning will definitely be on his side.
What I am interested in is seeing how it would play out at the 3 week mark. Even though, it can be debated that may not exactly be enough time. I know weight loss, I tend to get better trend analysis with 4 to 6 weeks.0 -
Well, on day 8 he is now a 147 lb man instead of 148. That surprised me I thought he'd be up a bit and not over a pound below where he started.
Not really surprising. What I find surprising is that for some reason, my 3 heaviest days of the week are the morning after my low carb days and my lowest are the mornings after my carbs are the highest. Haven't figured that one out, lol. Although, it could be the ice cream.
I watched the first 4 days and it seems interesting. It should be noted, that guy is lean as hell, so calorie partitioning will definitely be on his side.
What I am interested in is seeing how it would play out at the 3 week mark. Even though, it can be debated that may not exactly be enough time. I know weight loss, I tend to get better trend analysis with 4 to 6 weeks.
LOL I don't think he'd make 4 to 6 weeks, although I agree that it would have been nice to see. He was either struggling to eat today, or is good at struggling to eat. You can tell this is a guy who has never had issues with food - he doesn't know how to overeat. LOL The guy needs more cheese and bacon.
0 -
200g of fat?
There's a certain room I'd never be able to leave in order to ever be able to eat again.
5 -
Even if one does lose weight eating over TDEE I couldn't stomach (see what I did there) all the fat.
Having said that I could eat avocados every day:)0 -
Ugh. Typo in my last post. I mean he could be good at ACTING like he is struggling to eat.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »200g of fat?
There's a certain room I'd never be able to leave in order to ever be able to eat again.
Today, day 8, was over 300 g of fat...
I joked he needed more bacon. It is a great keto food for meeting macros on a normal caloric diet. About 75% fat and 25% protein. I got to thinking he could have a bacon day, but 4000 kcal bacon would involve 1000 calories of protein, or about 250g protein. It seems really strange than bacon is a high protein food if you are eating that much fat.
4000 calories of bacon would be 80strips of bacon if there are 50 kcal per slice. Huh. That can't be right...0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.6K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.3K Health and Weight Loss
- 176K Food and Nutrition
- 47.5K Recipes
- 232.6K Fitness and Exercise
- 431 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.6K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.8K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions