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Ketogenic overfeeding n=1 experiment by Wittrock
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »The nuts too. Easily 1000kcal with nuts.Well, on day 8 he is now a 147 lb man instead of 148. That surprised me I thought he'd be up a bit and not over a pound below where he started.
Not really surprising. What I find surprising is that for some reason, my 3 heaviest days of the week are the morning after my low carb days and my lowest are the mornings after my carbs are the highest. Haven't figured that one out, lol. Although, it could be the ice cream.
I watched the first 4 days and it seems interesting. It should be noted, that guy is lean as hell, so calorie partitioning will definitely be on his side.
What I am interested in is seeing how it would play out at the 3 week mark. Even though, it can be debated that may not exactly be enough time. I know weight loss, I tend to get better trend analysis with 4 to 6 weeks.
LOL I don't think he'd make 4 to 6 weeks, although I agree that it would have been nice to see. He was either struggling to eat today, or is good at struggling to eat. You can tell this is a guy who has never had issues with food - he doesn't know how to overeat. LOL The guy needs more cheese and bacon.
I am surprised he doesn't do cheese much. I'd be eating blocks of Kerry gold. But i guess he does it to minimize protein.
I still don't think a guy they fit and who works out that much will maintain at 2k. I suspect he is closer to 3k like most of the males on here. Watching almost all the videos, his workouts tend to be fairly long. The one day he was gone for 2 hours, grant it, i recognize there was some travel time.
I agree. My guess is just under 3k. He might get by on 2k though. The guy is definitely in touch with his hunger and fullness cues.
Didn't that other guy you referenced that did this eat like 2k or 3k in nuts alone?
Well, that's sort of cheating a bit, though, depending on the nut eaten. A lot of that doesn't get absorbed at all.
We could say that about any food with fibre then. It's sort of cheating if it has fibre because it slows digestion? How well you cook meat and at what temperature will affect digestion too. Raw vs cooked veggies...
I understand what you are saying, but unless it is a really large caloric difference, it doesn't mean much. It's interesting but it's sort of majoring in the minors.
And yeah, Sam Feltham, who did the 5000 kcal challenge ate close to 3000 kcal per day in walnuts, pecans and almonds.
No, it's not fiber that affects the mechanism of calories absorbed with nuts. It's the structure of the cell walls that inhibits the absorption of the fat, IIRC. The fiber in them is a separate issue.
This isn't majoring in the minors when you're effectively taking in up to 30% less calories than you think you are (depending on the nut).
This is NOT thermic effect here.
It would also explain why switching from peanut butter to almond butter has stalled my lean bulk before.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »The nuts too. Easily 1000kcal with nuts.Well, on day 8 he is now a 147 lb man instead of 148. That surprised me I thought he'd be up a bit and not over a pound below where he started.
Not really surprising. What I find surprising is that for some reason, my 3 heaviest days of the week are the morning after my low carb days and my lowest are the mornings after my carbs are the highest. Haven't figured that one out, lol. Although, it could be the ice cream.
I watched the first 4 days and it seems interesting. It should be noted, that guy is lean as hell, so calorie partitioning will definitely be on his side.
What I am interested in is seeing how it would play out at the 3 week mark. Even though, it can be debated that may not exactly be enough time. I know weight loss, I tend to get better trend analysis with 4 to 6 weeks.
LOL I don't think he'd make 4 to 6 weeks, although I agree that it would have been nice to see. He was either struggling to eat today, or is good at struggling to eat. You can tell this is a guy who has never had issues with food - he doesn't know how to overeat. LOL The guy needs more cheese and bacon.
I am surprised he doesn't do cheese much. I'd be eating blocks of Kerry gold. But i guess he does it to minimize protein.
I still don't think a guy they fit and who works out that much will maintain at 2k. I suspect he is closer to 3k like most of the males on here. Watching almost all the videos, his workouts tend to be fairly long. The one day he was gone for 2 hours, grant it, i recognize there was some travel time.
I agree. My guess is just under 3k. He might get by on 2k though. The guy is definitely in touch with his hunger and fullness cues.
Didn't that other guy you referenced that did this eat like 2k or 3k in nuts alone?
Well, that's sort of cheating a bit, though, depending on the nut eaten. A lot of that doesn't get absorbed at all.
We could say that about any food with fibre then. It's sort of cheating if it has fibre because it slows digestion? How well you cook meat and at what temperature will affect digestion too. Raw vs cooked veggies...
I understand what you are saying, but unless it is a really large caloric difference, it doesn't mean much. It's interesting but it's sort of majoring in the minors.
And yeah, Sam Feltham, who did the 5000 kcal challenge ate close to 3000 kcal per day in walnuts, pecans and almonds.
No, it's not fiber that affects the mechanism of calories absorbed with nuts. It's the structure of the cell walls that inhibits the absorption of the fat, IIRC. The fiber in them is a separate issue.
This isn't majoring in the minors when you're effectively taking in up to 30% less calories than you think you are (depending on the nut).
This is NOT thermic effect here.
It would also explain why switching from peanut butter to almond butter has stalled my lean bulk before.
From what I remember, almonds have the strongest cell walls and the highest level of calories not absorbed.1 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »wackyfunster wrote: »I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!
Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.
That's a bit of a myth too. It is harder to gain muscle than if you have elevated insulin, but elevated leucine from a ketogenic diet appears to pick up much of the slack. It may not be quite as good, but its pretty close.
Both leucine and training drive muscle protein synthesis and activate mTOR. The key is protein synthesis to be great than protein degradation (something insulin supports since it's anticatabolic). That would occur at a much higher rate with a higher carb diet; it's why carbs are king of bulk. This is why you have TKD/CKD diets (which aren't always super effective).
I swear, just for *kitten* and giggles I'm going to run my next bulk on a traditional Highlander diet. Funny thing is, it sounds a whole lot like modern lifter food. Milks, cheeses, barley, oats, red meat, fish, kale, and onions and turnips occasionally. Clearly my ancestors were onto something. No wonder they were reported to be far larger than the English and Indians. xD
Don't forget the mead. And the kilt!
Mead is an English thing. At least as far as this first generation Scot knows......
Agreed, this isn't something that would have been passed down through your family in recent centuries; the Highland diet is what the Scots who were living a herding lifestyle on overly marginal agricultural land could have raised and consumed in the medieval (and earlier) era--really tough cold-hardy grains in limited quantities, lots of mutton and beef and game, limited vegetables, some berries, and priceless, precious honey from the miles and miles of heather on the highland moors. The Celts and Vikings (and of course Anglo Saxons, as we know from Beowulf) venerated honey, and mead technology was widespread from prehistory onward, and was very important through northern Europe. The explosion in trade over time, industrialization, rise of sugar cane in the late middle ages, the Clearances in the Highlands, and the shipping of Gallowmere's ancestors to colonized Ireland and America and assorted other penal colonies would have been the nail in the coffin for mead in Scotland, but I think it pretty much fell out of favor everywhere for several centuries until just recently there has been a mead renaissance. Interestingly, heather honey has a uniquely high protein content, to the effect that ancient Scots said a mead drinker is as strong as a meat eater. Okay, I am done being a nerd for now.
Don't forget the Kail. Literally all of the kail. Yes, it's kail. Those who spell it as kale deserve to have the Dinnie stones dropped on them.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »wackyfunster wrote: »I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!
Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.
That's a bit of a myth too. It is harder to gain muscle than if you have elevated insulin, but elevated leucine from a ketogenic diet appears to pick up much of the slack. It may not be quite as good, but its pretty close.
Both leucine and training drive muscle protein synthesis and activate mTOR. The key is protein synthesis to be great than protein degradation (something insulin supports since it's anticatabolic). That would occur at a much higher rate with a higher carb diet; it's why carbs are king of bulk. This is why you have TKD/CKD diets (which aren't always super effective).
I swear, just for *kitten* and giggles I'm going to run my next bulk on a traditional Highlander diet. Funny thing is, it sounds a whole lot like modern lifter food. Milks, cheeses, barley, oats, red meat, fish, kale, and onions and turnips occasionally. Clearly my ancestors were onto something. No wonder they were reported to be far larger than the English and Indians. xD
Don't forget the mead. And the kilt!
Mead is an English thing. At least as far as this first generation Scot knows......
Agreed, this isn't something that would have been passed down through your family in recent centuries; the Highland diet is what the Scots who were living a herding lifestyle on overly marginal agricultural land could have raised and consumed in the medieval (and earlier) era--really tough cold-hardy grains in limited quantities, lots of mutton and beef and game, limited vegetables, some berries, and priceless, precious honey from the miles and miles of heather on the highland moors. The Celts and Vikings (and of course Anglo Saxons, as we know from Beowulf) venerated honey, and mead technology was widespread from prehistory onward, and was very important through northern Europe. The explosion in trade over time, industrialization, rise of sugar cane in the late middle ages, the Clearances in the Highlands, and the shipping of Gallowmere's ancestors to colonized Ireland and America and assorted other penal colonies would have been the nail in the coffin for mead in Scotland, but I think it pretty much fell out of favor everywhere for several centuries until just recently there has been a mead renaissance. Interestingly, heather honey has a uniquely high protein content, to the effect that ancient Scots said a mead drinker is as strong as a meat eater. Okay, I am done being a nerd for now.
Don't forget the Kail. Literally all of the kail. Yes, it's kail. Those who spell it as kale deserve to have the Dinnie stones dropped on them.
I thought thistles and stinging nettles were the preferred Highland greens.
Nettles are pretty much the best green ever.
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I love nuts! But I'm not going to put myself forth to test out this theory.... I completely avoid them as i overeat them every single time!0
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leanjogreen18 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »The nuts too. Easily 1000kcal with nuts.Well, on day 8 he is now a 147 lb man instead of 148. That surprised me I thought he'd be up a bit and not over a pound below where he started.
Not really surprising. What I find surprising is that for some reason, my 3 heaviest days of the week are the morning after my low carb days and my lowest are the mornings after my carbs are the highest. Haven't figured that one out, lol. Although, it could be the ice cream.
I watched the first 4 days and it seems interesting. It should be noted, that guy is lean as hell, so calorie partitioning will definitely be on his side.
What I am interested in is seeing how it would play out at the 3 week mark. Even though, it can be debated that may not exactly be enough time. I know weight loss, I tend to get better trend analysis with 4 to 6 weeks.
LOL I don't think he'd make 4 to 6 weeks, although I agree that it would have been nice to see. He was either struggling to eat today, or is good at struggling to eat. You can tell this is a guy who has never had issues with food - he doesn't know how to overeat. LOL The guy needs more cheese and bacon.
I am surprised he doesn't do cheese much. I'd be eating blocks of Kerry gold. But i guess he does it to minimize protein.
I still don't think a guy they fit and who works out that much will maintain at 2k. I suspect he is closer to 3k like most of the males on here. Watching almost all the videos, his workouts tend to be fairly long. The one day he was gone for 2 hours, grant it, i recognize there was some travel time.
I agree. My guess is just under 3k. He might get by on 2k though. The guy is definitely in touch with his hunger and fullness cues.
Didn't that other guy you referenced that did this eat like 2k or 3k in nuts alone?
Well, that's sort of cheating a bit, though, depending on the nut eaten. A lot of that doesn't get absorbed at all.
We could say that about any food with fibre then. It's sort of cheating if it has fibre because it slows digestion? How well you cook meat and at what temperature will affect digestion too. Raw vs cooked veggies...
It's interesting but it's sort of like majoring in the minors.
I think the cheating comes from the guy eating 2k-3k of nuts and then saying "see you can eat way above TDEE on keto and not gain". That seems to not be quite accurate or should I say it seems misleading.
He was eating way above TDEE and not gaining on ketos, so it is accurate to say "see you can eat way above TDEE on keto and not gain" for him. I don't think it's misleading - that would imply it was untrue.
I really don't know much about nut digestibility. It's never been something I looked into. Doing a quick search now I found this:
http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/nutrition/do-nuts-have-fewer-calories-than-we-thought.html
{"However, scientists say the results from the recent study on almonds demonstrate that the Atwater factor system of calculating the calorie content of certain foods groups, namely nuts, may not be entirely accurate. Although this recent study looked specifically at almonds, researchers believe the system may be a poor predictor of the energy content of all nuts and may possibly be a poor predictor of the calorie content of whole grains and peanuts as well. Scientists speculate that the rigid structure of the almond's cell membranes (and possibly the cell membranes of other plants) could lock in a portion of the fat, preventing it from being fully digested and absorbed. This may be due to the fact that the membrane that contains fiber encases the cell wall, and fiber isn't digested and therefore passes through the gastrointestinal tract unabsorbed"
And an interesting blog on the topic: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/the-hidden-truths-about-calories/
It appears one can eat 170 kcals of almonds and only have 128 kcals of it available for digestion. That's a 25% difference. Not a big deal for the typical person who has a snack of a couple of hundred calories of nuts. For Feltham, who ate 5000 kcals total, with about 2700-2800 kcals coming from nuts (a 1000 of those from almonds) that could be 500-750 kcals that were not digestible. It could have contributed to his not gaining while eating soooo much. Probably one of many factors.
Reading this stuff makes me feel better about having a cup of pistachios for lunch a few days per week. It's like a keto bonus. Free food. Woohoo! 2 -
Christine_72 wrote: »I love nuts! But I'm not going to put myself forth to test out this theory.... I completely avoid them as i overeat them every single time!
Same. Just cannot be trusted. Yet not having them around doesn't bother me in the least.0 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »I love nuts! But I'm not going to put myself forth to test out this theory.... I completely avoid them as i overeat them every single time!
Same. Just cannot be trusted. Yet not having them around doesn't bother me in the least.
Out of sight, out of mind
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leanjogreen18 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »The nuts too. Easily 1000kcal with nuts.Well, on day 8 he is now a 147 lb man instead of 148. That surprised me I thought he'd be up a bit and not over a pound below where he started.
Not really surprising. What I find surprising is that for some reason, my 3 heaviest days of the week are the morning after my low carb days and my lowest are the mornings after my carbs are the highest. Haven't figured that one out, lol. Although, it could be the ice cream.
I watched the first 4 days and it seems interesting. It should be noted, that guy is lean as hell, so calorie partitioning will definitely be on his side.
What I am interested in is seeing how it would play out at the 3 week mark. Even though, it can be debated that may not exactly be enough time. I know weight loss, I tend to get better trend analysis with 4 to 6 weeks.
LOL I don't think he'd make 4 to 6 weeks, although I agree that it would have been nice to see. He was either struggling to eat today, or is good at struggling to eat. You can tell this is a guy who has never had issues with food - he doesn't know how to overeat. LOL The guy needs more cheese and bacon.
I am surprised he doesn't do cheese much. I'd be eating blocks of Kerry gold. But i guess he does it to minimize protein.
I still don't think a guy they fit and who works out that much will maintain at 2k. I suspect he is closer to 3k like most of the males on here. Watching almost all the videos, his workouts tend to be fairly long. The one day he was gone for 2 hours, grant it, i recognize there was some travel time.
I agree. My guess is just under 3k. He might get by on 2k though. The guy is definitely in touch with his hunger and fullness cues.
Didn't that other guy you referenced that did this eat like 2k or 3k in nuts alone?
Well, that's sort of cheating a bit, though, depending on the nut eaten. A lot of that doesn't get absorbed at all.
We could say that about any food with fibre then. It's sort of cheating if it has fibre because it slows digestion? How well you cook meat and at what temperature will affect digestion too. Raw vs cooked veggies...
It's interesting but it's sort of like majoring in the minors.
I think the cheating comes from the guy eating 2k-3k of nuts and then saying "see you can eat way above TDEE on keto and not gain". That seems to not be quite accurate or should I say it seems misleading.
He was eating way above TDEE and not gaining on ketos, so it is accurate to say "see you can eat way above TDEE on keto and not gain" for him. I don't think it's misleading - that would imply it was untrue.
I really don't know much about nut digestibility. It's never been something I looked into. Doing a quick search now I found this:
http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/nutrition/do-nuts-have-fewer-calories-than-we-thought.html
{"However, scientists say the results from the recent study on almonds demonstrate that the Atwater factor system of calculating the calorie content of certain foods groups, namely nuts, may not be entirely accurate. Although this recent study looked specifically at almonds, researchers believe the system may be a poor predictor of the energy content of all nuts and may possibly be a poor predictor of the calorie content of whole grains and peanuts as well. Scientists speculate that the rigid structure of the almond's cell membranes (and possibly the cell membranes of other plants) could lock in a portion of the fat, preventing it from being fully digested and absorbed. This may be due to the fact that the membrane that contains fiber encases the cell wall, and fiber isn't digested and therefore passes through the gastrointestinal tract unabsorbed"
And an interesting blog on the topic: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/the-hidden-truths-about-calories/
It appears one can eat 170 kcals of almonds and only have 128 kcals of it available for digestion. That's a 25% difference. Not a big deal for the typical person who has a snack of a couple of hundred calories of nuts. For Feltham, who ate 5000 kcals total, with about 2700-2800 kcals coming from nuts (a 1000 of those from almonds) that could be 500-750 kcals that were not digestible. It could have contributed to his not gaining while eating soooo much. Probably one of many factors.
Reading this stuff makes me feel better about having a cup of pistachios for lunch a few days per week. It's like a keto bonus. Free food. Woohoo!
Not exactly. If a food cannot be converted to energy, then it really doesn't count in your CI. This would be similar if you had a malabsorption issue. Additionally, if the measurement of food is wrong or not adequate because the membrane of a nut is similar to insoluble fiber, then nutrition labels should be updated to reflect that. So if you take ~25% of the calories, + the increases in TEF from doubling protein, it would alter things a bit. Let's also not forget, that we are assuming TDEE. We aren't considering metabolic changes from overfeeding.. especially significant over feeding.0 -
Let me add, it would be interesting to see an over feed attempt if they did it in thr same manor of keto.. meaning not using junk food to hit calories. According to what @nvmomketo posted, it noted similar miscalculations with whole grains.0
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He needs to say you can eat way over TDEE on Almonds (whatever nut it was) not Keto.
I don't recall Attia singling out the nuts as the reason he could eat high calories over TDEE but he specified the "Keto diet".
Nuts are a part of Keto but to me the distinction should be made.
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »The nuts too. Easily 1000kcal with nuts.Well, on day 8 he is now a 147 lb man instead of 148. That surprised me I thought he'd be up a bit and not over a pound below where he started.
Not really surprising. What I find surprising is that for some reason, my 3 heaviest days of the week are the morning after my low carb days and my lowest are the mornings after my carbs are the highest. Haven't figured that one out, lol. Although, it could be the ice cream.
I watched the first 4 days and it seems interesting. It should be noted, that guy is lean as hell, so calorie partitioning will definitely be on his side.
What I am interested in is seeing how it would play out at the 3 week mark. Even though, it can be debated that may not exactly be enough time. I know weight loss, I tend to get better trend analysis with 4 to 6 weeks.
LOL I don't think he'd make 4 to 6 weeks, although I agree that it would have been nice to see. He was either struggling to eat today, or is good at struggling to eat. You can tell this is a guy who has never had issues with food - he doesn't know how to overeat. LOL The guy needs more cheese and bacon.
I am surprised he doesn't do cheese much. I'd be eating blocks of Kerry gold. But i guess he does it to minimize protein.
I still don't think a guy they fit and who works out that much will maintain at 2k. I suspect he is closer to 3k like most of the males on here. Watching almost all the videos, his workouts tend to be fairly long. The one day he was gone for 2 hours, grant it, i recognize there was some travel time.
I agree. My guess is just under 3k. He might get by on 2k though. The guy is definitely in touch with his hunger and fullness cues.
Didn't that other guy you referenced that did this eat like 2k or 3k in nuts alone?
Well, that's sort of cheating a bit, though, depending on the nut eaten. A lot of that doesn't get absorbed at all.
We could say that about any food with fibre then. It's sort of cheating if it has fibre because it slows digestion? How well you cook meat and at what temperature will affect digestion too. Raw vs cooked veggies...
I understand what you are saying, but unless it is a really large caloric difference, it doesn't mean much. It's interesting but it's sort of majoring in the minors.
And yeah, Sam Feltham, who did the 5000 kcal challenge ate close to 3000 kcal per day in walnuts, pecans and almonds.
No, it's not fiber that affects the mechanism of calories absorbed with nuts. It's the structure of the cell walls that inhibits the absorption of the fat, IIRC. The fiber in them is a separate issue.
This isn't majoring in the minors when you're effectively taking in up to 30% less calories than you think you are (depending on the nut).
This is NOT thermic effect here.
No. No one's talking thermogenic effect here. It could be fibre in the cell wall or just the structure of that type of cell wall. Perhaps it is protective chemicals. They'e not too sure what it is, just that it is in nuts, legumes and grains.
I think Feltham ate green beans every day for the higher carb part of his 21 day 5000kcal challenge.... I wonder if they have that undigestible effect too. Perhaps to a lesser extent.
I think picking on the digestibility of the food is a bit, well, picky. Whole grains are less digestible than more refined and processed grains. When someone from MFP eats their steel cut oats or their instant oatmeal, they are probably thinking about the caloric total and not trying to figure out the calories that were non-digestible. Those who are lactose intolerant are getting less from their dairy than those who produce lactase. People probably aren't thinking of digestibility when they decide between rare or well-done, or tofu/meat substitute for that matter. I doubt it's a consideration when people choose their protein macro either. I know I don't think about (lower) digestibility of my raw veggies when I eat them. I just prefer the crunch.,,, Well, except broccoli. Broccoli must be cooked or it's digestibility is front and centre - that veggie can really mess with my insides.
Anyway, my guess is that a whole foods, moderate to higher carb diet probably has more foods that have lower digestibility than a low carb or keto diet. Those of us on under 2000 kcal per day don't eat nuts like Wittrock and Feltham. It probably all evens out in the end. Perhaps not so much for the diets incorporating more refined carbohydrates or with higher levels of sugars and sugar substitutes.
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As for nuts, I've had a rough week - ate more than 2 lbs. of various nuts in the last 3 days - Brazil nuts, walnuts, and pecans. If it is true, perhaps my gain won't be as bad as expected from based on calories alone.0
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leanjogreen18 wrote: »
He needs to say you can eat way over TDEE on Almonds (whatever nut it was) not Keto.
I don't recall Attia singling out the nuts as the reason he could eat high calories over TDEE but he specified the "Keto diet".
Nuts are a part of Keto but to me the distinction should be made.
I still disagree. Almonds are not a keto exclusive food. Most people eat nuts. "Normal" people eat nuts and they overeat them too. Nuts are not a magic keto food. They just may lose some digestibility. 25%. Legumes and grains are similar. We keto'ers aren't getting the benefit of the undigestibility of grains and legumes. Seems fair enough.
And TBH, keto'ers don't eat a lot of almonds or pistachios because their carb content can throw off our macros. One ounce of nuts has between 4 and 10g of carbs, depending on the nut. One ounce is not much - just 8-24 nuts depending on the nut.
Cashews have over 9g of carbs per ounce. If I ate 2 oz, that's just 36 nuts but I would be really close to my carb limit for the day. Plus that's probably 300 kcals or so... or maybe just 220 kcals of digestible calories. LOL 1 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »As for nuts, I've had a rough week - ate more than 2 lbs. of various nuts in the last 3 days - Brazil nuts, walnuts, and pecans. If it is true, perhaps my gain won't be as bad as expected from based on calories alone.
@midwesterner85 I guess you could potentially ignore 75% of the nuts' calories. Did it have any effect on your insulin needs for your high nut meals? 25% less insulin used? I'm curious.
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Day 9 was promote your sponsor day. LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGgt-8Y1aeA
He got his initial labs back. Total LDL was high, HDL was 79 and Triglycerides were at 80 something. His hs-CRP was perfect.
I think he was 147 lbs again.0 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »
He needs to say you can eat way over TDEE on Almonds (whatever nut it was) not Keto.
I don't recall Attia singling out the nuts as the reason he could eat high calories over TDEE but he specified the "Keto diet".
Nuts are a part of Keto but to me the distinction should be made.
I still disagree. Almonds are not a keto exclusive food. Most people eat nuts. "Normal" people eat nuts and they overeat them too. Nuts are not a magic keto food. They just may lose some digestibility. 25%. Legumes and grains are similar. We keto'ers aren't getting the benefit of the undigestibility of grains and legumes. Seems fair enough.
And TBH, keto'ers don't eat a lot of almonds or pistachios because their carb content can throw off our macros. One ounce of nuts has between 4 and 10g of carbs, depending on the nut. One ounce is not much - just 8-24 nuts depending on the nut.
Cashews have over 9g of carbs per ounce. If I ate 2 oz, that's just 36 nuts but I would be really close to my carb limit for the day. Plus that's probably 300 kcals or so... or maybe just 220 kcals of digestible calories. LOL
I totally agree! You actually made my point better than I did re nuts lol.
My problem is at least with Attia he implied Keto was the reason he could eat way over TDEE. To me that means one could eat bacon, cheese or any fat etc over TDEE and not gain.
So I think at least in Attia's case where he ate 1000's of calories in nuts it was misleading. It wasn't all Keto, he chose nuts that may not be fully digested and pass through.
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leanjogreen18 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »
He needs to say you can eat way over TDEE on Almonds (whatever nut it was) not Keto.
I don't recall Attia singling out the nuts as the reason he could eat high calories over TDEE but he specified the "Keto diet".
Nuts are a part of Keto but to me the distinction should be made.
I still disagree. Almonds are not a keto exclusive food. Most people eat nuts. "Normal" people eat nuts and they overeat them too. Nuts are not a magic keto food. They just may lose some digestibility. 25%. Legumes and grains are similar. We keto'ers aren't getting the benefit of the undigestibility of grains and legumes. Seems fair enough.
And TBH, keto'ers don't eat a lot of almonds or pistachios because their carb content can throw off our macros. One ounce of nuts has between 4 and 10g of carbs, depending on the nut. One ounce is not much - just 8-24 nuts depending on the nut.
Cashews have over 9g of carbs per ounce. If I ate 2 oz, that's just 36 nuts but I would be really close to my carb limit for the day. Plus that's probably 300 kcals or so... or maybe just 220 kcals of digestible calories. LOL
I totally agree! You actually made my point better than I did re nuts lol.
My problem is at least with Attia he implied Keto was the reason he could eat way over TDEE. To me that means one could eat bacon, cheese or any fat etc over TDEE and not gain.
So I think at least in Attia's case where he ate 1000's of calories in nuts it was misleading. It wasn't all Keto, he chose nuts that may not be fully digested and pass through.
Sure but who's to say he didn't eat nuts before?
And Attia ate 1000's of calories of nuts? I don't think he did. In this run down of his ketogenic diet, he ate about 300-400 kcals of nuts in a week. That's a difference of 100 kcals from a nut's undigestibility.
http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/what-i-actually-eat
Now Feltham did eat a LOT of nuts. But he posted his diet so people knew exactly what he ate everyday of his 5000 kcal challenge. Even if he did "lose" that 700 or so kcals per day to the nuts not being fully digested, that accounts for about 4 lbs not gained over 21 days. It doesn't account for the rest of the weight he didn't gain. I think it was another 4 lbs or there abouts.1 -
^^^Yes thanks for the clarification I got them mixed up.
Some men can hold up to 10 lbs of poo:) how does this factor in:)
Ack posted before I finished. Lol
It would just be nice to throw nuts out then that to me inflates the calorie count.
But honestly it doesn't really matter to me. I had no idea nuts weren't fully digested so I learned something new today:).
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leanjogreen18 wrote: »^^^Yes thanks for the clarification I got them mixed up.
Some men can hold up to 10 lbs of poo:) how does this factor in:)
Ack posted before I finished. Lol
It would just be nice to throw nuts out then that to me inflates the calorie count.
But honestly it doesn't really matter to me. I had no idea nuts weren't fully digested so I learned something new today:).
Me too. I want to look into that more and see whether my beloved macadamias are the same, as well as snap peas and green beans. Love those too.
I'll let someone else look up the grains. 2
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