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Ketogenic overfeeding n=1 experiment by Wittrock
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Christine_72 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Don't forget he was sick. That complicates things.
Since he seemed to have so much trouble eating more, I have to wonder if he doesn't typically hang out at the low end of his TDEE anyway. Perhaps NEAT increased as more calories became available.
But is it possible to get a physique like his eating like a bird? I average 1700-2000 calories a day, surely to fuel his workouts he'd have to eat more than me. I'm around the same weight as him, and inch taller and obviously carry more body fat, like quadruple more!
From his videos, I don't get the idea that he works out that much. It might be useful if he posted more details about his daily workouts, though.
I'll have a peek around youtube, I'm pretty sure he's posted his workouts, I've never clicked on any though, so can't confirm for sure..
He varies his workouts but they are fairly high volume bodybuilding style workouts. I suspect at the vary least, they are 1.5 hours and he has already noted that he is very active (when he set up his MFP profile, he noted that). That would suggest, looking at most TDEE equations, that he workouts over 6 hours a week. This makes sense because when he says he works out, he generally notes "2 hours later" from when he stops shooting to reshoooting. Given potential travel time, I suspect 1.5 hours is about appropriate.
Another thing we haven't even taken into consider is whether or not Jason is even clean or enhance, which is something that most BB are. We do know he takes a crap ton of supplement, but most are standard and others are not really proven.
I'll admit I hadn't even heard of this guy until this thread, but now I'm somewhat intrigued because he and I are so close to the same in terms of height / weight / age and either I look so much more heavy because that approx. 13 lbs. of fat really covers a lot up, or maybe because I have more lower body muscles while his are upper body... or something else? If 1.5 hours per day is what he is doing, I'm surprised at how low it is. So now I'm trying to figure out why our stats are so close but we look so different yet.
It's making me really think about getting a Dexa sooner rather than later to get some more accurate information about myself. I've been trying to get a BodPod, RMR, and VO2 max for nearly a year at the nearest place (5 hr. drive) and have basically given up being able to schedule anything there. Another spot does Dexa, RMR, VO2 max, and a few other things and is about 6 hr. drive away. If it is even possible to schedule something in the next few months, I'm strongly thinking about going for it at that point rather than waiting until later this year when I (hopefully) reach my fat loss goal.
I suspect you are more different than him than you think, so it would definitely be interesting to see what a DEXA would say... and I am not trying to be rude. Because the few pictures I have seen of you, don't show a significant amount of definition. And at least according to an 11 point caliper test, I am 16% (as of 8 weeks ago) and I a lot of arm/leg/back definition and starting to get a 4 pack.
I vary on testing under different methods, but my 'educated guess' of 13% is mid-range. One of those methods (the method that is consistently way above all others) is also what I use most frequently. That usually puts me at 16%-17%, though the last 2 weeks have been high calorie for me and I've varied quite a bit from day to day on all things - weight and BF%. Other methods are less frequent, but there is always a 4% gap between this particular scale with BEI and the next highest method. All in all, I range from 11% - 17% (except the last 2 weeks, which I expect to turn around shortly) with most results in the range of 11% - 13%. It is possible that everything is wrong except the one BEI scale that is consistently high. That means other BEI devices and calipers are consistently low. Either way, I become more curious with time; so I'm strongly considering at least a Dexa in the next couple months (I have a day in April where I have time to make the trip). If I'm going, I may as well get RMR and VO2 max done as well.
ETA: Also, consider that even though I lose slowly, the most recent photo is my current profile photo from last week. Prior to that, my profile photo had been taken May 2016.
Midwestener, that big ol cat is crowding out your photo lol There's more of his body showing than yours, it's hard to tell anything from a half a head and 1/4 of an arm shot
The big cat used to be 10 lbs. heavier, and he loses faster than me despite weighing less in total. He's my diabetic kitty.3 -
Perhaps Jimmy Moore (a staunch keto evangelist) could document his n=1 experiment. It certainly looks like it's worked well for him (as he makes fun of low fat diets in the slide presentation):
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Perhaps Jimmy Moore (a staunch keto evangelist) could document his n=1 experiment. It certainly looks like it's worked well for him (as he makes fun of low fat diets in the slide presentation):
That is absolutely gold! Reminds me of all the out of shape trainers that one comes across in most gyms.2 -
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Perhaps Jimmy Moore (a staunch keto evangelist) could document his n=1 experiment. It certainly looks like it's worked well for him (as he makes fun of low fat diets in the slide presentation):
Ironically, Jason addresses that in one of his issues. Jimmy said its a journey and he is still working through it.
Also, arguments based on looks is a bit ridiculous. If it was valid people could argue the Lyle McDonald knows nothing about lifting... and we certainly know that isnt the case.. he is a genius.1 -
Perhaps Jimmy Moore (a staunch keto evangelist) could document his n=1 experiment. It certainly looks like it's worked well for him (as he makes fun of low fat diets in the slide presentation):
Ironically, Jason addresses that in one of his issues. Jimmy said its a journey and he is still working through it.
Also, arguments based on looks is a bit ridiculous. If it was valid people could argue the Lyle McDonald knows nothing about lifting... and we certainly know that isnt the case.. he is a genius.
I don't think this was posted to argue about looks.
It was posted as a counterpoint to the "magic" of keto.
It's quite obvious that if you overfeed on keto, you'll gain weight, and Jimmy Moore is proof of that.
I'm not down with fat shaming, but honestly, anyone coming away from what Jason did thinking that it proved anything is seriously fooling themselves.
If I did not have familial hypercholesterolemia, I'd be willing to gain weight and do a 21 day vegetarian keto challenge on myself. The problem would be that I'd have to eat foods that wouldn't be healthy for me to eat in order to do this and consume too much saturated fat and cholesterol (which isn't good for people who have FH). I'd baseline everything and document it properly, unlike Jason.
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Perhaps Jimmy Moore (a staunch keto evangelist) could document his n=1 experiment. It certainly looks like it's worked well for him (as he makes fun of low fat diets in the slide presentation):
Ironically, Jason addresses that in one of his issues. Jimmy said its a journey and he is still working through it.
Also, arguments based on looks is a bit ridiculous. If it was valid people could argue the Lyle McDonald knows nothing about lifting... and we certainly know that isnt the case.. he is a genius.
I don't think this was posted to argue about looks.
It was posted as a counterpoint to the "magic" of keto.
It's quite obvious that if you overfeed on keto, you'll gain weight, and Jimmy Moore is proof of that.
I'm not down with fat shaming, but honestly, anyone coming away from what Jason did thinking that it proved anything is seriously fooling themselves.
If I did not have familial hypercholesterolemia, I'd be willing to gain weight and do a 21 day vegetarian keto challenge on myself. The problem would be that I'd have to eat foods that wouldn't be healthy for me to eat in order to do this and consume too much saturated fat and cholesterol (which isn't good for people who have FH). I'd baseline everything and document it properly, unlike Jason.
Oh, I definitely get it. I way I say, that Jason's experiment is interesting but can't be used to prove anything. He didn't baseline caloric needs, so that is a big strike. He admits he is fairly active and there is question if he is even natty, considering a large portion of bodybuilders are not.0 -
Perhaps Jimmy Moore (a staunch keto evangelist) could document his n=1 experiment. It certainly looks like it's worked well for him (as he makes fun of low fat diets in the slide presentation):
I can't read the cartoon... What does it say?
Jimmy Moore is not a small man but he started at over 400 lbs and has maintained a loss of about 100 lbs, plus he has outlived close family members of similar size and shape. I believe that is why he considers his own journey a success story so far.1 -
Perhaps Jimmy Moore (a staunch keto evangelist) could document his n=1 experiment. It certainly looks like it's worked well for him (as he makes fun of low fat diets in the slide presentation):
I can't read the cartoon... What does it say?
Jimmy Moore is not a small man but he started at over 400 lbs and has maintained a loss of about 100 lbs, plus he has outlived close family members of similar size and shape. I believe that is why he considers his own journey a success story so far.
My low fat diet really works! The fat hangs lower every day.2 -
singingflutelady wrote: »Perhaps Jimmy Moore (a staunch keto evangelist) could document his n=1 experiment. It certainly looks like it's worked well for him (as he makes fun of low fat diets in the slide presentation):
I can't read the cartoon... What does it say?
Jimmy Moore is not a small man but he started at over 400 lbs and has maintained a loss of about 100 lbs, plus he has outlived close family members of similar size and shape. I believe that is why he considers his own journey a success story so far.
My low fat diet really works! The fat hangs lower every day.
Thanks.0 -
I went through a few of his past videos and found a video he did on a full day of eating keto.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2TH1c_qucc
Definitely looked over 2000 kcals to me. He ate:
coffee with 1Tbs coconut oil
4 eggs with cheese, a salsa like veggie and fruit topping and sour cream
possibly a snack of pumpkin seeds
ground beef (guessing about 4 oz) topped with cheese, salsa like stuff and sour cream
salmon (~5 oz? with olive oil), spinach and almond milk
a snack of sunflower seeds
Really similar protein intake to his 4K challenge. It was just the oils and fats that he added more of... which may explain why he had such a hard time eating it.
I have no idea what his caloric total was, nor his macros. I would guess around 3K.5 -
I went through a few of his past videos and found a video he did on a full day of eating keto.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2TH1c_qucc
Definitely looked over 2000 kcals to me. He ate:
coffee with 1Tbs coconut oil
4 eggs with cheese, a salsa like veggie and fruit topping and sour cream
possibly a snack of pumpkin seeds
ground beef (guessing about 4 oz) topped with cheese, salsa like stuff and sour cream
salmon (~5 oz? with olive oil), spinach and almond milk
a snack of sunflower seeds
Really similar protein intake to his 4K challenge. It was just the oils and fats that he added more of... which may explain why he had such a hard time eating it.
I have no idea what his caloric total was, nor his macros. I would guess around 3K.
One of the things I really appreciate about you is that even though you are pro Keto you are honest about CICO and your own experience of overeating on Keto and gaining weight.
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leanjogreen18 wrote: »I went through a few of his past videos and found a video he did on a full day of eating keto.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2TH1c_qucc
Definitely looked over 2000 kcals to me. He ate:
coffee with 1Tbs coconut oil
4 eggs with cheese, a salsa like veggie and fruit topping and sour cream
possibly a snack of pumpkin seeds
ground beef (guessing about 4 oz) topped with cheese, salsa like stuff and sour cream
salmon (~5 oz? with olive oil), spinach and almond milk
a snack of sunflower seeds
Really similar protein intake to his 4K challenge. It was just the oils and fats that he added more of... which may explain why he had such a hard time eating it.
I have no idea what his caloric total was, nor his macros. I would guess around 3K.
One of the things I really appreciate about you is that even though you are pro Keto you are honest about CICO and your own experience of overeating on Keto and gaining weight.
She is to keto, what @janejellyroll is to veganism. 4 -
I went through a few of his past videos and found a video he did on a full day of eating keto.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2TH1c_qucc
Definitely looked over 2000 kcals to me. He ate:
coffee with 1Tbs coconut oil
4 eggs with cheese, a salsa like veggie and fruit topping and sour cream
possibly a snack of pumpkin seeds
ground beef (guessing about 4 oz) topped with cheese, salsa like stuff and sour cream
salmon (~5 oz? with olive oil), spinach and almond milk
a snack of sunflower seeds
Really similar protein intake to his 4K challenge. It was just the oils and fats that he added more of... which may explain why he had such a hard time eating it.
I have no idea what his caloric total was, nor his macros. I would guess around 3K.
So I went through and calculated everyone (we have the same market down the street) and i looked at anderson reserve site to look at portions. I calculated, 2547 calories; 49g cho, 133g pro, 198g fat without supplements... so probably 2600 calories at least. It's hard to exactly tell since he doesn't weigh items. Beef is 6oz and so was fish; with 2 servings of roasted pumpkin seeds since he snacked in the car and at night (depending on how much he snacks, it could definitely be more). So 2600 to 3000 is reasonable based on studies suggesting the average person can under estimate by as much as 400 calories. But depending on how much he actually snacks throughout the day, it could be more or less.
So if this is a typical day, then he and I are fairly close to intake.2 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »I went through a few of his past videos and found a video he did on a full day of eating keto.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2TH1c_qucc
Definitely looked over 2000 kcals to me. He ate:
coffee with 1Tbs coconut oil
4 eggs with cheese, a salsa like veggie and fruit topping and sour cream
possibly a snack of pumpkin seeds
ground beef (guessing about 4 oz) topped with cheese, salsa like stuff and sour cream
salmon (~5 oz? with olive oil), spinach and almond milk
a snack of sunflower seeds
Really similar protein intake to his 4K challenge. It was just the oils and fats that he added more of... which may explain why he had such a hard time eating it.
I have no idea what his caloric total was, nor his macros. I would guess around 3K.
One of the things I really appreciate about you is that even though you are pro Keto you are honest about CICO and your own experience of overeating on Keto and gaining weight.
Well thanks.
Now... everybody should be doing keto!! Kidding, kidding.I went through a few of his past videos and found a video he did on a full day of eating keto.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2TH1c_qucc
Definitely looked over 2000 kcals to me. He ate:
coffee with 1Tbs coconut oil
4 eggs with cheese, a salsa like veggie and fruit topping and sour cream
possibly a snack of pumpkin seeds
ground beef (guessing about 4 oz) topped with cheese, salsa like stuff and sour cream
salmon (~5 oz? with olive oil), spinach and almond milk
a snack of sunflower seeds
Really similar protein intake to his 4K challenge. It was just the oils and fats that he added more of... which may explain why he had such a hard time eating it.
I have no idea what his caloric total was, nor his macros. I would guess around 3K.
So I went through and calculated everyone (we have the same market down the street) and i looked at anderson reserve site to look at portions. I calculated, 2547 calories; 49g cho, 133g pro, 198g fat without supplements... so probably 2600 calories at least. It's hard to exactly tell since he doesn't weigh items. Beef is 6oz and so was fish; with 2 servings of roasted pumpkin seeds since he snacked in the car and at night (depending on how much he snacks, it could definitely be more). So 2600 to 3000 is reasonable based on studies suggesting the average person can under estimate by as much as 400 calories. But depending on how much he actually snacks throughout the day, it could be more or less.
So if this is a typical day, then he and I are fairly close to intake.
Thanks for figuring that out. I was coming back to do that today.
Your estimation seems really reasonable. Somewhere between 2600 and 3000 is probably right.
For his challenge he added an extra tablespoon or three of butter or coconut oil to his coffee. That's pretty filling right there. He also added extra fats to "keto shakes" and extra fats on his meats and veggies. A few days he did spoonfuls of oil. Yuck.
He really did manage to keep carbs and protein about the same in the challenge. It pretty much was just increased fats. He even had a a good number of days where protein was lower than his typical day. I think he had protein down to the 60s or 70s on one day early on.
It really is a shame he didn't have a better baseline. He could do that as a challenge next. 2K per day on keto? I wonder how much he would lose. Oh well, he supposedly dramatically tossed his scale so I doubt he'll do another challenge.0 -
Perhaps Jimmy Moore (a staunch keto evangelist) could document his n=1 experiment. It certainly looks like it's worked well for him
Ah, the level of debate has got to there. What's next - Hitler ?
I don't recall Moore having so little hair, but perhaps it's a photo from 10 years ago or something. This is from last month (the logo on the wall is from a conference) although the group were organisers of an event last year hence the title.
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Perhaps Jimmy Moore (a staunch keto evangelist) could document his n=1 experiment. It certainly looks like it's worked well for him
Ah, the level of debate has got to there. What's next - Hitler ?
I don't recall Moore having so little hair, but perhaps it's a photo from 10 years ago or something. This is from last month (the logo on the wall is from a conference) although the group were organisers of an event last year hence the title.
A quick Google search shows that the source (not surprisingly) is a tweet of Evelyn "carbsane" and she says the photo is from January 2016.
Jimmy Moore's troubles are well known though.
Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about the next level. Considering the number of her followers, they surely aren't going to attempt to invade Poland any time soon.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Don't forget he was sick. That complicates things.
Since he seemed to have so much trouble eating more, I have to wonder if he doesn't typically hang out at the low end of his TDEE anyway. Perhaps NEAT increased as more calories became available.
But is it possible to get a physique like his eating like a bird? I average 1700-2000 calories a day, surely to fuel his workouts he'd have to eat more than me. I'm around the same weight as him, and inch taller and obviously carry more body fat, like quadruple more!
From his videos, I don't get the idea that he works out that much. It might be useful if he posted more details about his daily workouts, though.
I'll have a peek around youtube, I'm pretty sure he's posted his workouts, I've never clicked on any though, so can't confirm for sure..
He varies his workouts but they are fairly high volume bodybuilding style workouts. I suspect at the vary least, they are 1.5 hours and he has already noted that he is very active (when he set up his MFP profile, he noted that). That would suggest, looking at most TDEE equations, that he workouts over 6 hours a week. This makes sense because when he says he works out, he generally notes "2 hours later" from when he stops shooting to reshoooting. Given potential travel time, I suspect 1.5 hours is about appropriate.
Another thing we haven't even taken into consider is whether or not Jason is even clean or enhance, which is something that most BB are. We do know he takes a crap ton of supplement, but most are standard and others are not really proven.
I'll admit I hadn't even heard of this guy until this thread, but now I'm somewhat intrigued because he and I are so close to the same in terms of height / weight / age and either I look so much more heavy because that approx. 13 lbs. of fat really covers a lot up, or maybe because I have more lower body muscles while his are upper body... or something else? If 1.5 hours per day is what he is doing, I'm surprised at how low it is. So now I'm trying to figure out why our stats are so close but we look so different yet.
It's making me really think about getting a Dexa sooner rather than later to get some more accurate information about myself. I've been trying to get a BodPod, RMR, and VO2 max for nearly a year at the nearest place (5 hr. drive) and have basically given up being able to schedule anything there. Another spot does Dexa, RMR, VO2 max, and a few other things and is about 6 hr. drive away. If it is even possible to schedule something in the next few months, I'm strongly thinking about going for it at that point rather than waiting until later this year when I (hopefully) reach my fat loss goal.
I suspect you are more different than him than you think, so it would definitely be interesting to see what a DEXA would say... and I am not trying to be rude. Because the few pictures I have seen of you, don't show a significant amount of definition. And at least according to an 11 point caliper test, I am 16% (as of 8 weeks ago) and I a lot of arm/leg/back definition and starting to get a 4 pack.
@psuLemon Since you were interested: Dexa today says 15.8%, so higher than where I expected, but not by much. Ironically, the part I though was most muscular (legs) actually holds the most fat.
ETA: RMR shows 1,500 even; 92% fat (since I am fat adapted, that is not unreasonably high).1 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Don't forget he was sick. That complicates things.
Since he seemed to have so much trouble eating more, I have to wonder if he doesn't typically hang out at the low end of his TDEE anyway. Perhaps NEAT increased as more calories became available.
But is it possible to get a physique like his eating like a bird? I average 1700-2000 calories a day, surely to fuel his workouts he'd have to eat more than me. I'm around the same weight as him, and inch taller and obviously carry more body fat, like quadruple more!
From his videos, I don't get the idea that he works out that much. It might be useful if he posted more details about his daily workouts, though.
I'll have a peek around youtube, I'm pretty sure he's posted his workouts, I've never clicked on any though, so can't confirm for sure..
He varies his workouts but they are fairly high volume bodybuilding style workouts. I suspect at the vary least, they are 1.5 hours and he has already noted that he is very active (when he set up his MFP profile, he noted that). That would suggest, looking at most TDEE equations, that he workouts over 6 hours a week. This makes sense because when he says he works out, he generally notes "2 hours later" from when he stops shooting to reshoooting. Given potential travel time, I suspect 1.5 hours is about appropriate.
Another thing we haven't even taken into consider is whether or not Jason is even clean or enhance, which is something that most BB are. We do know he takes a crap ton of supplement, but most are standard and others are not really proven.
I'll admit I hadn't even heard of this guy until this thread, but now I'm somewhat intrigued because he and I are so close to the same in terms of height / weight / age and either I look so much more heavy because that approx. 13 lbs. of fat really covers a lot up, or maybe because I have more lower body muscles while his are upper body... or something else? If 1.5 hours per day is what he is doing, I'm surprised at how low it is. So now I'm trying to figure out why our stats are so close but we look so different yet.
It's making me really think about getting a Dexa sooner rather than later to get some more accurate information about myself. I've been trying to get a BodPod, RMR, and VO2 max for nearly a year at the nearest place (5 hr. drive) and have basically given up being able to schedule anything there. Another spot does Dexa, RMR, VO2 max, and a few other things and is about 6 hr. drive away. If it is even possible to schedule something in the next few months, I'm strongly thinking about going for it at that point rather than waiting until later this year when I (hopefully) reach my fat loss goal.
I suspect you are more different than him than you think, so it would definitely be interesting to see what a DEXA would say... and I am not trying to be rude. Because the few pictures I have seen of you, don't show a significant amount of definition. And at least according to an 11 point caliper test, I am 16% (as of 8 weeks ago) and I a lot of arm/leg/back definition and starting to get a 4 pack.
@psuLemon Since you were interested: Dexa today says 15.8%, so higher than where I expected, but not by much. Ironically, the part I though was most muscular (legs) actually holds the most fat.
ETA: RMR shows 1,500 even; 92% fat (since I am fat adapted, that is not unreasonably high).
Interesting results.1
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