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Ketogenic overfeeding n=1 experiment by Wittrock
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And while i'm picking things apart-I have yet to see him weigh anything. Even if he weighs his food of camera, what about those avocados? 2 a day. Caloie dense. They're almost always on his plate in the in the shell which had weight but does not eat...
Lol, my first thought "WEIGH YOUR FOOD. DON'T USE CUPS AND TABLESPOONS." If that's how he's figuring his calories, he's probably eating twice what he thinks, and since he's losing, his TDEE is way higher.
I would love to see this with someone who's bothered to take proper data points before, during, and after.
It would have been nice if he weighed.... But you think he is probably eating more then? And still losing? I think he is still eating a fair bit more than normal just based on how he reacts to overfeeding - it isn't his norm. So he is eating more than 4K and still losing weight....
There may be a little bit of magic (for some people) in keto .
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Day 17 - 147.2 lbs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scm10QwItAA
Higher protein day today - 190 something grams or about 20%. He ate chicken so he blamed that on his higher than typical protein. Fat was 75% at 333 g, I believe.
Oh, this makes me sad.... legs 1 day a week and it's high reps low weight (because of fear of injury). And wonders why he has small legs. He has small legs due to lack of frequency and an inadequate forcing function. He definitely trains like a bodybuilder instead of a powerlifter which is why he fails to get bigger.4 -
Day 18 - 145.8 lbs (start was 148.2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZcWhITn3Vo
He put his stats into MFP to calculate his calories and macros...
LOL
I decided to watch the MFP part of this one out of curiosity. Does he not know you can change the macro ratios? I'm thick about computer/app programs, but damn.
I found that pretty interesting too. Sort of implies that he might not really have used mfp as much/often as he currently is. I'll have to listen/watch day 20 again but what was it he said about mfp indicating he should eat 2300 calories per day to LOSE 1 pound per week?? Seems to me to be indicative of having a TDEE higher than 2000 calories per day? I believe he also mentioned he set his stats to "highly active"?
I've sort of lost interest especially after half-watching day 20 and the whole mfp bit...if i heard it correctly.
That's what I found sort of funny too. What he claims is maintenance level of calories is what MFP predicts he'll lose at. 2300 or so calories. I would not have set it for highly active though. His job is mostly sitting with 1-2 hours of exercise per day, 4-5 days per week.
I still really doubt he eats 2000 kcal per day but even if he does eat 3000kcal, he should have gained 4 lbs by now, maybe 5 lbs. The one factor that has me believing that he might eat close to 2000 kcal is how he reacts to eating a lot. He's either a really good actor or having to eat that much really did throw him for a loop. He seems like a sincere person. At the very least, I think he believes that he normally ate around 2000kcals per day.
Same here. It took an hour to eat what I would put down in 10 min. or less. He even makes it look like more by using so many extra plates with nearly nothing on each one.0 -
And while i'm picking things apart-I have yet to see him weigh anything. Even if he weighs his food of camera, what about those avocados? 2 a day. Caloie dense. They're almost always on his plate in the in the shell which had weight but does not eat...
Lol, my first thought "WEIGH YOUR FOOD. DON'T USE CUPS AND TABLESPOONS." If that's how he's figuring his calories, he's probably eating twice what he thinks, and since he's losing, his TDEE is way higher.
I would love to see this with someone who's bothered to take proper data points before, during, and after.
It would have been nice if he weighed.... But you think he is probably eating more then? And still losing? I think he is still eating a fair bit more than normal just based on how he reacts to overfeeding - it isn't his norm. So he is eating more than 4K and still losing weight....
There may be a little bit of magic (for some people) in keto .
The magic with all diets would be adherence. The biggest issue, as we all know, is he never baselined his TDEE. I have used like 6 or 7 different calculators and they all under estimate my needs. A few of them, at very active, have me maintaining at 2800... which is the closest I have seen. My actual is 3000 and I am a lot less supplemented than him, and I suspect I workout a lot less than him with only about 10lbs more muscle and 25lbs more. I workout 5 or 6 hours a week, 4 of them being weight lifting. We are the same age, I have 4" more on him. Like I said previously, I really don't know any guys who workout and are as lean as him, that maintain at 2000 calories. And even the one that is close to him, if he works out, would put him over 2k for maintenance.
Also interesting enough, regarding the bold from ZYXST. There is a weird phenomenon in the gaining weight section, where people assume they are eating crazy amounts of calories (like over 3k). But once they start weighing their food, they find out they are like 400 calories or more less. It seems like they are in the few that actually under report their intake based on perception. It's also fascinated me because most studies would indicate the opposite.4 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »And while i'm picking things apart-I have yet to see him weigh anything. Even if he weighs his food of camera, what about those avocados? 2 a day. Caloie dense. They're almost always on his plate in the in the shell which had weight but does not eat...
Lol, my first thought "WEIGH YOUR FOOD. DON'T USE CUPS AND TABLESPOONS." If that's how he's figuring his calories, he's probably eating twice what he thinks, and since he's losing, his TDEE is way higher.
I would love to see this with someone who's bothered to take proper data points before, during, and after.
I doubt he is eating twice what he thinks. More likely, he is eating under. It's psychological, when you feel overeating is a chore like he does, portions look larger than they actually are. I noticed when I'm hungry and spoon my "usual" serving of rice, it's about 30% bigger than when I'm not hungry, but I could have sworn it was roughly the same if I weren't weighting. More than once I looked at his plate and thought "that's it? that would be a snack for me" while he was complaining how hard it was to eat that much. In videos where prepares food, it's very obvious he eyeballs a lot. Randomly slicing butter, for example, and guessing each slice as a tablespoon (knowing my slices of butter from ages of weighing, it looks more like 8-10 grams), squeezing random sour cream on his eggs, pouring sauce randomly..etc.
I did not comment about this earlier because it doesn't really matter. If he isn't gaining he isn't in a surplus, no need to nitpick. It actually made me lose interest a bit. I was interested in certain aspects of overfeeding, and he isn't overfeeding.
This.
There's no magic to keto. He's grossly overestimating his intake.5 -
And while i'm picking things apart-I have yet to see him weigh anything. Even if he weighs his food of camera, what about those avocados? 2 a day. Caloie dense. They're almost always on his plate in the in the shell which had weight but does not eat...
Lol, my first thought "WEIGH YOUR FOOD. DON'T USE CUPS AND TABLESPOONS." If that's how he's figuring his calories, he's probably eating twice what he thinks, and since he's losing, his TDEE is way higher.
I would love to see this with someone who's bothered to take proper data points before, during, and after.
It would have been nice if he weighed.... But you think he is probably eating more then? And still losing? I think he is still eating a fair bit more than normal just based on how he reacts to overfeeding - it isn't his norm. So he is eating more than 4K and still losing weight....
There may be a little bit of magic (for some people) in keto .
Note: I haven't watched any of the videos. Just going off what's been posted.
He's losing weight, so he's either eating less or burning more or both. Since he's pulled TDEE number out of his hat and is using that guess to figure out how much to eat, that's off since he's losing weight. It's not a "he eating way more food and losing, aka keto magic". It's "he has no proper data for his TDEE, guessing his food intake, not comfortable eating all this food, and losing weight".
My take/guess (and I've never watched the videos) - he 's eating less than he burns, therefore losing weight.
He seems to be someone who just jumped in for the fun of it (or YouTube views) and is confused why he's losing weight rather than gaining.3 -
I haven't watched any of the videos either and have only skimmed this thread but it sounds like instead of proving anything scientifically in regards to overfeeding/keto he's demonstrating precisely why the diet works for many. People feel like they're eating an absolute ton - even if they're not - and they lose weight.0
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »I haven't watched any of the videos either and have only skimmed this thread but it sounds like instead of proving anything scientifically in regards to overfeeding/keto he's demonstrating precisely why the diet works for many. People feel like they're eating an absolute ton - even if they're not - and they lose weight.
It's been my observation that this works/happens for/with other special diets that are more niche approaches too. There are people who follow the McDougall diet, for example, who feel this way. I poked around on a site for The Starch Solution, and they were all grossly overestimating their intake like crazy.3 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »I haven't watched any of the videos either and have only skimmed this thread but it sounds like instead of proving anything scientifically in regards to overfeeding/keto he's demonstrating precisely why the diet works for many. People feel like they're eating an absolute ton - even if they're not - and they lose weight.
While it's demonstrably true for some and very few would argue it has this effect for some people (personally I marvel at how tiny keto portions are), he is naturally thin and clearly not a big eater so not a good example of this effect. If he attempted a high carb low fat overfeeding I bet my boots he is going to have the same problem with overestimating beyond the initial glycogen.0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »I haven't watched any of the videos either and have only skimmed this thread but it sounds like instead of proving anything scientifically in regards to overfeeding/keto he's demonstrating precisely why the diet works for many. People feel like they're eating an absolute ton - even if they're not - and they lose weight.
It's been my observation that this works/happens for/with other special diets that are more niche approaches too. There are people who follow the McDougall diet, for example, who feel this way. I poked around on a site for The Starch Solution, and they were all grossly overestimating their intake like crazy.
Yes, whole food diets are definitely best for hunger regardless of macro composition.0 -
Hasn't he been eating keto for the last year? During this time, has he been losing or maintaining? If the argument is that he is over-estimating intake and eating at a deficit and that level of intake feels like he is just eating sooooo much; then with the same type of foods, doesn't it make sense that he has been eating even fewer calories for the last year? If he is losing now, he should have been losing a whole lot over the last year. That is, unless CICO isn't perfect...0
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midwesterner85 wrote: »Hasn't he been eating keto for the last year? During this time, has he been losing or maintaining? If the argument is that he is over-estimating intake and eating at a deficit and that level of intake feels like he is just eating sooooo much; then with the same type of foods, doesn't it make sense that he has been eating even fewer calories for the last year? If he is losing now, he should have been losing a whole lot over the last year. That is, unless CICO isn't perfect...
He got fit before keto and pretty much has been on keto for awhile. His weight is up and down but as he states in the video, he doesnt track his weight. Its hard to say what he has been doing, weight wise, over the past year or so.2 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Hasn't he been eating keto for the last year? During this time, has he been losing or maintaining? If the argument is that he is over-estimating intake and eating at a deficit and that level of intake feels like he is just eating sooooo much; then with the same type of foods, doesn't it make sense that he has been eating even fewer calories for the last year? If he is losing now, he should have been losing a whole lot over the last year. That is, unless CICO isn't perfect...
This funny thing sometimes happens when a person diets (up or down). The focus on food can make you fixate on the hardships (be it having trouble restricting or overeating calories) which distorts perception. It's pretty fascinating. Sometimes when I take maintenance breaks, I eat whatever I want. I don't log my foods right away, but I write them down and log them all at once after my last meal. Funny thing happens sometimes... I find myself eating fewer calories than my usual dieting calories while feeling like I'm eating way more. Once I notice this trend and start looking for it, deliberately trying to replicate it with the intent of losing weight, everything falls apart and stops working as intended because I'm just too aware and it feels like dieting again.
It could be that his focus on food is making his usual intake feel like a lot, but it's just the same. His weight is up and down within acceptable fluctuation margin, so he isn't exactly losing or gaining (might be either, but it's too small of a calorie deficit/surplus to show a consistent trend).0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Hasn't he been eating keto for the last year? During this time, has he been losing or maintaining? If the argument is that he is over-estimating intake and eating at a deficit and that level of intake feels like he is just eating sooooo much; then with the same type of foods, doesn't it make sense that he has been eating even fewer calories for the last year? If he is losing now, he should have been losing a whole lot over the last year. That is, unless CICO isn't perfect...
He got fit before keto and pretty much has been on keto for awhile. His weight is up and down but as he states in the video, he doesnt track his weight. Its hard to say what he has been doing, weight wise, over the past year or so.
He did say in the Day 1 video he is usually about 155 and has never weighed more than 160. Also said he doesn't weigh frequently and expected his Day 1 weight to be lower than his usual because he had been busy and out of town so hadn't been eating in his usual fashion. He was 148.2 on Day 1. Honestly I listened to it again this morning wanting to hear exactly why he is doing this challenge. I didn't hear "a why" other than eating 2x his "normal" .0 -
It's an interesting concept, but I will say I'm amused by people reaching the conclusion that there's something magical about keto when like no variables were controlled.
It could also be that he underestimated his TDEE, got sick, which for me at least often ends in greater weight loss, and is eating significantly less than he thinks he is.
I do wonder if he would be perhaps undereating if he weren't doing this to "prove a point." In the back of his head, he's likely hoping for a certain outcome, and as such could be biasing his portions to make it fit that. Lots of people do that, it isn't an inherent criticism of him, but demonstrates why it is so important to control variables.4 -
Day 19 - 147.2 lbs (started at 148.2)
I wouldn't be surprised if he lands right back at 148.2 in two days. LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWrngb7jX_s
His little guy is crawling - really cute.
He did tablespoons of oil (shooters) to get his calories in.... That just isn't much fun. I'd rather eat the macadamias than eat spoonfuls of the oil.
He's got something planned for tomorrow that he hinted at.
editted for typos.2 -
Aahhh i was hoping baby Preston would start crawling by the time Jason had wrapped up his 21 days 1
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Day 19 - 147.2 lbs (started at 148.2)
I wouldn't be surprised if he lands right back at 148.2 in two days. LOLhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWrngb7jX_s
His little guy is crawling - really cute.
He did tablespoons of oil (shooters) to get his calories in.... That just isn't much fun. I'd rather eat the macadamias than eat spoonfuls of the oil.
He's got something planned for tomorrow that he hinted at.
editted for typos.
Hells yea... it's easy to down a pound or 2 of nuts and have a ton of calories that way. Drinking straight oil is not appetizing. In fact, it is gross.0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »Aahhh i was hoping baby preston would start crawling by the time Jason had wrapped up his 21 days
Paxton duh
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midwesterner85 wrote: »Day 19 - 147.2 lbs (started at 148.2)
I wouldn't be surprised if he lands right back at 148.2 in two days. LOLhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWrngb7jX_s
His little guy is crawling - really cute.
He did tablespoons of oil (shooters) to get his calories in.... That just isn't much fun. I'd rather eat the macadamias than eat spoonfuls of the oil.
He's got something planned for tomorrow that he hinted at.
editted for typos.
Hells yea... it's easy to down a pound or 2 of nuts and have a ton of calories that way. Drinking straight oil is not appetizing. In fact, it is gross.
Yeah. He just is NOT a volume eater.0
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