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Ketogenic overfeeding n=1 experiment by Wittrock
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http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/74/6/737.full.pdf+html
This is the overfeed study I have. It takes lean and obese individual and evaluations DNL. But it's application to this, is probably very limited.
Also, insulin is not fat sparring. It inhibits lipolysis through the suppression of HSL. But inhibit =/= stop. It is muscle sparing though as it helps prevent protein degradation. Even KH studies showed that. Even with over 120g of sugar (and higher insulin) there wasn't a fat loss difference. And we can't forget that HSL is also suppressed by the enzyme Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) which is driven by dietary fat; also, carbs and fats increase Glucose-Dependent Insulintrophic Peptide which suppressed HSL. The latter being the reason why people used to think the worse combination of foods was carbs + fat as they activate all enzymes that suppress HSL (or at least that is how I understand it).
Thanks for the study. I found table 3 interesting. The insulin circulating level was different between the lean and the obese, and it varied it between overfeeding glucose or sucrose. The overweight people had higher insulin (and lower BG) for the overfeed on fructose as opposed to the lean who were higher in insulin on the glucose over feed (and lower n BG too).
I agree that its application to this is probably limited, unless you assume that because de novo lipogenesis increases as carb level rises, it falls as carb levels fall. This only works if you assume DNL is related to carb levels and not simply a hypercaloric diet.
"As might be expected, there was a highly significant positive
relation between carbohydrate intake and the amount of de novo
lipogenesis measured in the pooled subjects.
The more carbohydrate supplied in the diet, the greater the
response of de novo lipogenesis, regardless of subject type. In
contrast with the relation between de novo lipogenesis and fat oxi-
dation, the amount of de novo lipogenesis increased significantly
with increasing carbohydrate oxidation, with 41% of
the variation in de novo lipogenesis due to variation in carbohy-
drate oxidation. De novo lipogenesis was significantly positively
related to carbohydrate balance in the pooled analysis (Figure 2).
There was also a significant positive correlation
between de novo lipogenesis and carbohydrate intake. Those subjects fed
the greatest amounts of dietary carbohydrate had the highest
amount of carbohydrate oxidation, were in the highest positive
carbohydrate imbalance, and had the highest amount of de novo
lipogenesis."
I do think insulin is fat sparing, as I understand it. I could be wong. From what I understand, higher insulin means less fat oxidation. It makes you hold onto the fat that is there. Not completely. I know sparing does not mea stop. It appears to slow it down.
... I need to read more. I don't have a full grasp on this stuff. An understatement.1 -
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/74/6/737.full.pdf+html
This is the overfeed study I have. It takes lean and obese individual and evaluations DNL. But it's application to this, is probably very limited.
Also, insulin is not fat sparring. It inhibits lipolysis through the suppression of HSL. But inhibit =/= stop. It is muscle sparing though as it helps prevent protein degradation. Even KH studies showed that. Even with over 120g of sugar (and higher insulin) there wasn't a fat loss difference. And we can't forget that HSL is also suppressed by the enzyme Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) which is driven by dietary fat; also, carbs and fats increase Glucose-Dependent Insulintrophic Peptide which suppressed HSL. The latter being the reason why people used to think the worse combination of foods was carbs + fat as they activate all enzymes that suppress HSL (or at least that is how I understand it).
Thanks for the study. I found table 3 interesting. The insulin circulating level was different between the lean and the obese, and it varied it between overfeeding glucose or sucrose. The overweight people had higher insulin (and lower BG) for the overfeed on fructose as opposed to the lean who were higher in insulin on the glucose over feed (and lower n BG too).
I agree that its application to this is probably limited, unless you assume that because de novo lipogenesis increases as carb level rises, it falls as carb levels fall. This only works if you assume DNL is related to carb levels and not simply a hypercaloric diet.
"As might be expected, there was a highly significant positive
relation between carbohydrate intake and the amount of de novo
lipogenesis measured in the pooled subjects.
The more carbohydrate supplied in the diet, the greater the
response of de novo lipogenesis, regardless of subject type. In
contrast with the relation between de novo lipogenesis and fat oxi-
dation, the amount of de novo lipogenesis increased significantly
with increasing carbohydrate oxidation, with 41% of
the variation in de novo lipogenesis due to variation in carbohy-
drate oxidation. De novo lipogenesis was significantly positively
related to carbohydrate balance in the pooled analysis (Figure 2).
There was also a significant positive correlation
between de novo lipogenesis and carbohydrate intake. Those subjects fed
the greatest amounts of dietary carbohydrate had the highest
amount of carbohydrate oxidation, were in the highest positive
carbohydrate imbalance, and had the highest amount of de novo
lipogenesis."
I do think insulin is fat sparing, as I understand it. I could be wong. From what I understand, higher insulin means less fat oxidation. It makes you hold onto the fat that is there. Not completely. I know sparing does not mea stop. It appears to slow it down.
... I need to read more. I don't have a full grasp on this stuff. An understatement.
All food would be fat sparring because all macronutrients inhibit lipolysis through slightly different mechanism (and to be perfectly honest, I don't even think fat-sparring is a real thing). High amounts of carbs would suppress fat oxidation in response to glycogen storage and increased carbohydrate oxidation. When you eat carbs, there really is 3 things that must occur; store as glycogen, utilize for immediate energy through CHO oxidation or store as fat (latter being less prevalent). While that occurs, it suppresses fat oxidation. If you eat less carbs, CHO oxidation will decrease, and fat oxidation will increase. That is due to the body storing more fatty acids. In all reality, substrate utilization for the person who isn't an endurance athlete means nothing. Only when you start doing endurance work (2+ hrs a day) does it matter. And looking at athletes, it's largely in favor of carbs over fat.0 -
I'm trying to find some overfeeding low carb studies to possibly explain why Wittrock is not gaining weight, and has actually lost a pound. There is not much out there.
Low insulin would be a popular target nowadays, but that is completely unproven. If high insulin contributes to obesity, I would say it varies between individuals and MAY be one factor among many. Yes, insulin is fat-sparing but from what I understand it is not a major fat builder. Insulin reduces fat oxidation and promotes lipogenesis, but it isn't making more fat unless there are excess calories /overfeeding.
Wittrock is eating excess calories, but his insulin is probably low. Perhaps keeping carbs low, fat high, and insulin low is one factor preventing lipogenesis?
All I'm finding is mice studies. Tenuous relevance.
A high-fat diet suppresses de novo lipogenesis and desaturation but not elongation and triglyceride synthesis in mice:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4242447/
More mice:
A high-fat, ketogenic diet induces a unique metabolic state in mice
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/6/E1724.full
"Abstract
Ketogenic diets have been used as an approach to weight loss on the basis of the theoretical advantage of a low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet. To evaluate the physiological and metabolic effects of such diets on weight we studied mice consuming a very-low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet (KD). This diet had profound effects on energy balance and gene expression. C57BL/6 mice animals were fed one of four diets: KD; a commonly used obesogenic high-fat, high-sucrose diet (HF); 66% caloric restriction (CR); and control chow (C). Mice on KD ate the same calories as mice on C and HF, but weight dropped and stabilized at 85% initial weight, similar to CR. This was consistent with increased energy expenditure seen in animals fed KD vs. those on C and CR. Microarray analysis of liver showed a unique pattern of gene expression in KD, with increased expression of genes in fatty acid oxidation pathways and reduction in lipid synthesis pathways. Animals made obese on HF and transitioned to KD lost all excess body weight, improved glucose tolerance, and increased energy expenditure. Analysis of key genes showed similar changes as those seen in lean animals placed directly on KD. Additionally, AMP kinase activity was increased, with a corresponding decrease in ACC activity. These data indicate that KD induces a unique metabolic state congruous with weight loss."
A very low carbohydrate ketogenic diet prevents the progression of hepatic steatosis caused by hyperglycemia in a juvenile obese mouse model
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3506983/
This next one is not ovefeeding, and is actually hypocaloric, but it discusses a change in lipid panels and weight as carb and fat content changes:
Effects of Step-Wise Increases in Dietary Carbohydrate on Circulating Saturated Fatty Acids and Palmitoleic Acid in Adults with Metabolic Syndrome
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
In A, weight loss slows as carbs increase BUT weight loss often slows as time goes by.
Bah. There just isn't much out there. Hopefully the LCHF researchers will look into hypercaloric LCHF diets soon.
In the mean time, it would be fascinating if Wittrock would do a moderate or high carb 21 day 4000kcal challenge. I suspect he never would though.
He probably is gaining weight. 2 weeks in to a ketogenic diet I'd expect a guy at his weight to have lost at least 3-4 pounds of water weight due to glyogen depletion, plus maybe another pound of food weight (due to the lower ash/fiber content of a ketogenic diet). We'll see what happens when he starts eating carbs again. Typically a weight regain of ~4% of body weight is seen.
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wackyfunster wrote: »I'm trying to find some overfeeding low carb studies to possibly explain why Wittrock is not gaining weight, and has actually lost a pound. There is not much out there.
Low insulin would be a popular target nowadays, but that is completely unproven. If high insulin contributes to obesity, I would say it varies between individuals and MAY be one factor among many. Yes, insulin is fat-sparing but from what I understand it is not a major fat builder. Insulin reduces fat oxidation and promotes lipogenesis, but it isn't making more fat unless there are excess calories /overfeeding.
Wittrock is eating excess calories, but his insulin is probably low. Perhaps keeping carbs low, fat high, and insulin low is one factor preventing lipogenesis?
All I'm finding is mice studies. Tenuous relevance.
A high-fat diet suppresses de novo lipogenesis and desaturation but not elongation and triglyceride synthesis in mice:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4242447/
More mice:
A high-fat, ketogenic diet induces a unique metabolic state in mice
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/6/E1724.full
"Abstract
Ketogenic diets have been used as an approach to weight loss on the basis of the theoretical advantage of a low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet. To evaluate the physiological and metabolic effects of such diets on weight we studied mice consuming a very-low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet (KD). This diet had profound effects on energy balance and gene expression. C57BL/6 mice animals were fed one of four diets: KD; a commonly used obesogenic high-fat, high-sucrose diet (HF); 66% caloric restriction (CR); and control chow (C). Mice on KD ate the same calories as mice on C and HF, but weight dropped and stabilized at 85% initial weight, similar to CR. This was consistent with increased energy expenditure seen in animals fed KD vs. those on C and CR. Microarray analysis of liver showed a unique pattern of gene expression in KD, with increased expression of genes in fatty acid oxidation pathways and reduction in lipid synthesis pathways. Animals made obese on HF and transitioned to KD lost all excess body weight, improved glucose tolerance, and increased energy expenditure. Analysis of key genes showed similar changes as those seen in lean animals placed directly on KD. Additionally, AMP kinase activity was increased, with a corresponding decrease in ACC activity. These data indicate that KD induces a unique metabolic state congruous with weight loss."
A very low carbohydrate ketogenic diet prevents the progression of hepatic steatosis caused by hyperglycemia in a juvenile obese mouse model
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3506983/
This next one is not ovefeeding, and is actually hypocaloric, but it discusses a change in lipid panels and weight as carb and fat content changes:
Effects of Step-Wise Increases in Dietary Carbohydrate on Circulating Saturated Fatty Acids and Palmitoleic Acid in Adults with Metabolic Syndrome
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
In A, weight loss slows as carbs increase BUT weight loss often slows as time goes by.
Bah. There just isn't much out there. Hopefully the LCHF researchers will look into hypercaloric LCHF diets soon.
In the mean time, it would be fascinating if Wittrock would do a moderate or high carb 21 day 4000kcal challenge. I suspect he never would though.
He probably is gaining weight. 2 weeks in to a ketogenic diet I'd expect a guy at his weight to have lost at least 3-4 pounds of water weight due to glyogen depletion, plus maybe another pound of food weight (due to the lower ash/fiber content of a ketogenic diet). We'll see what happens when he starts eating carbs again. Typically a weight regain of ~4% of body weight is seen.
Wittrock was alrady keto adapted. The bigger argument is he didn't baseline EE needs prior to the experiment and suggested that he probably maintains around 2K.3 -
I believe he's been keto for at least a year so the initial "glycogen depletion" has long since passed. It would be interesting though to see if he would try a high carb diet. On one hand I guess he would not since his business is built around keto but on the other hand he might to prove a weight gain point.2
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I have obviously not been following this closely enough
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midwesterner85 wrote: »
We really can't compare Wittrock's TDEE because we do not know what it is. We can get a pretty accurate estimate of his BMR, though. Some on this debate argue he started with an incorrect estimate of 2K TDEE based on the notion that it isn't possible. As long as BMR is below what he is calculating for TDEE, then it is possible. THAT is why BMR is relevant. As to what his actual TDEE is? Many on this thread are arguing that he is wrong with 2,000; but only because it doesn't sound right to them. Does anyone have any actual evidence to determine his true TDEE? If not, then a number that fits within the possible range (2K) provided by the person who knows best what his daily activity looks like makes a lot of sense.
As to the similarities and differences based on best available information:
Witrock Me
Male Male
5'7" 5'7"
148.1 lbs. 155 lbs.
5% BF 13% BF
7.4 lb. fat 20.2 lb. fat
140.6 lbm 134.9 lbm
Wittrock has about 6 lbs. more lean mass than me and about 13 lbs. less fat.
Is there anybody on this thread with closer stats to Wittrock? I'm pretty sure I'm the closest here, yet people keep wanting to negate my similarities by arguing that various women with less weight and height have similar TDEE's as though they are somehow more comparable to Wittrock.
I'm taller fatter and heavier but may come out about the same LBM as him, maybe similar to yourself. I'm 56 though so metabolic rate is likely a bit lower. A couple of years ago it was 1600 measured, at the time 17% below the lab's standard prediciotn for my stats.
I'm a lot less strong and fit, and less "supplemented". His TDEE is hard to gauge, anyone seen him sweating ? The potential energy added to a 200 lb weight lifted 6' is what, a couple of calories each time ? Shame he didn't do a deal with Fitbit or someone to get a number on his activity.
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I'm trying to find some overfeeding low carb studies to possibly explain why Wittrock is not gaining weight, and has actually lost a pound. There is not much out there.
"Response of body weight to a low carbohydrate, high fat diet in normal and obese subjects"
Am J Clin Nutr 1973 26: 2 197-204 by Kasper, Thiel and Ehl. Overfeeding with corn oil didn't produce weight gain in some subjects and other weird stuff that takes a bit of disentangling. Is the food choices made by Wittrock an issue ?
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Day 17 - 147.2 lbs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scm10QwItAA
Higher protein day today - 190 something grams or about 20%. He ate chicken so he blamed that on his higher than typical protein. Fat was 75% at 333 g, I believe.1 -
I'm trying to find some overfeeding low carb studies to possibly explain why Wittrock is not gaining weight, and has actually lost a pound. There is not much out there.
"Response of body weight to a low carbohydrate, high fat diet in normal and obese subjects"
Am J Clin Nutr 1973 26: 2 197-204 by Kasper, Thiel and Ehl. Overfeeding with corn oil didn't produce weight gain in some subjects and other weird stuff that takes a bit of disentangling. Is the food choices made by Wittrock an issue ?
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/26/2/197.abstract
Corn oil... Huh. Interesting - thanks!1 -
Day 18 - 145.8 lbs (start was 148.2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZcWhITn3Vo
He put his stats into MFP to calculate his calories and macros...
LOL 4 -
I wonder if the corn oil effect would appear in US corn fed meat too - at least in pork and chicken where the fat they eat is the fat on their body.0 -
Day 18 - 145.8 lbs (start was 148.2)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZcWhITn3Vo
He put his stats into MFP to calculate his calories and macros... LOL
I decided to watch the MFP part of this one out of curiosity. Does he not know you can change the macro ratios? I'm thick about computer/app programs, but damn.0 -
Day 18 - 145.8 lbs (start was 148.2)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZcWhITn3Vo
He put his stats into MFP to calculate his calories and macros... LOL
I decided to watch the MFP part of this one out of curiosity. Does he not know you can change the macro ratios? I'm thick about computer/app programs, but damn.
I found that pretty interesting too. Sort of implies that he might not really have used mfp as much/often as he currently is. I'll have to listen/watch day 20 again but what was it he said about mfp indicating he should eat 2300 calories per day to LOSE 1 pound per week?? Seems to me to be indicative of having a TDEE higher than 2000 calories per day? I believe he also mentioned he set his stats to "highly active"?
I've sort of lost interest especially after half-watching day 20 and the whole mfp bit...if i heard it correctly.0 -
And while i'm picking things apart-I have yet to see him weigh anything. Even if he weighs his food of camera, what about those avocados? 2 a day. Caloie dense. They're almost always on his plate in the in the shell which had weight but does not eat...1
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And while i'm picking things apart-I have yet to see him weigh anything. Even if he weighs his food of camera, what about those avocados? 2 a day. Caloie dense. They're almost always on his plate in the in the shell which had weight but does not eat...
Lol, my first thought "WEIGH YOUR FOOD. DON'T USE CUPS AND TABLESPOONS." If that's how he's figuring his calories, he's probably eating twice what he thinks, and since he's losing, his TDEE is way higher.
I would love to see this with someone who's bothered to take proper data points before, during, and after.5 -
And while i'm picking things apart-I have yet to see him weigh anything. Even if he weighs his food of camera, what about those avocados? 2 a day. Caloie dense. They're almost always on his plate in the in the shell which had weight but does not eat...
Lol, my first thought "WEIGH YOUR FOOD. DON'T USE CUPS AND TABLESPOONS." If that's how he's figuring his calories, he's probably eating twice what he thinks, and since he's losing, his TDEE is way higher.
I would love to see this with someone who's bothered to take proper data points before, during, and after.
As would I. Proper data. The other day he put 2 scoops of protein powder in his drink. Heaping scoops. If he's that slack on items where he could be over calorie, he's probably that slack on where he could be under calorie. Avocados being 1 example.
I wasn't exactly precise during weight loss so it must have all "balanced out" but i wasn't on youtube trying to make any sort of point to the masses...5 -
Day 18 - 145.8 lbs (start was 148.2)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZcWhITn3Vo
He put his stats into MFP to calculate his calories and macros... LOL
I decided to watch the MFP part of this one out of curiosity. Does he not know you can change the macro ratios? I'm thick about computer/app programs, but damn.
I think his point was more that the MFP calculator can't explain his weight loss.
He has his macros set at 5C/20P/75F.2 -
And while i'm picking things apart-I have yet to see him weigh anything. Even if he weighs his food of camera, what about those avocados? 2 a day. Caloie dense. They're almost always on his plate in the in the shell which had weight but does not eat...
Lol, my first thought "WEIGH YOUR FOOD. DON'T USE CUPS AND TABLESPOONS." If that's how he's figuring his calories, he's probably eating twice what he thinks, and since he's losing, his TDEE is way higher.
I would love to see this with someone who's bothered to take proper data points before, during, and after.
I doubt he is eating twice what he thinks. More likely, he is eating under. It's psychological, when you feel overeating is a chore like he does, portions look larger than they actually are. I noticed when I'm hungry and spoon my "usual" serving of rice, it's about 30% bigger than when I'm not hungry, but I could have sworn it was roughly the same if I weren't weighting. More than once I looked at his plate and thought "that's it? that would be a snack for me" while he was complaining how hard it was to eat that much. In videos where prepares food, it's very obvious he eyeballs a lot. Randomly slicing butter, for example, and guessing each slice as a tablespoon (knowing my slices of butter from ages of weighing, it looks more like 8-10 grams), squeezing random sour cream on his eggs, pouring sauce randomly..etc.
I did not comment about this earlier because it doesn't really matter. If he isn't gaining he isn't in a surplus, no need to nitpick. It actually made me lose interest a bit. I was interested in certain aspects of overfeeding, and he isn't overfeeding.7 -
Day 18 - 145.8 lbs (start was 148.2)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZcWhITn3Vo
He put his stats into MFP to calculate his calories and macros... LOL
I decided to watch the MFP part of this one out of curiosity. Does he not know you can change the macro ratios? I'm thick about computer/app programs, but damn.
I found that pretty interesting too. Sort of implies that he might not really have used mfp as much/often as he currently is. I'll have to listen/watch day 20 again but what was it he said about mfp indicating he should eat 2300 calories per day to LOSE 1 pound per week?? Seems to me to be indicative of having a TDEE higher than 2000 calories per day? I believe he also mentioned he set his stats to "highly active"?
I've sort of lost interest especially after half-watching day 20 and the whole mfp bit...if i heard it correctly.
That's what I found sort of funny too. What he claims is maintenance level of calories is what MFP predicts he'll lose at. 2300 or so calories. I would not have set it for highly active though. His job is mostly sitting with 1-2 hours of exercise per day, 4-5 days per week.
I still really doubt he eats 2000 kcal per day but even if he does eat 3000kcal, he should have gained 4 lbs by now, maybe 5 lbs. The one factor that has me believing that he might eat close to 2000 kcal is how he reacts to eating a lot. He's either a really good actor or having to eat that much really did throw him for a loop. He seems like a sincere person. At the very least, I think he believes that he normally ate around 2000kcals per day.3
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