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What do you think are the environmental factors of obesity and how best can we reduce their impact?
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Strange as it might sound, I agree with both of you.Aaron_K123 wrote: »I think the first step needed for dealing with ones obesity is first to acknowledge your responsibility for your own body and take personal responsibility for it regardless of what circumstances got you there it is you that will have to work to achieve the goal you want of being fit or healthier.
I think trying to point towards society or circumstance or environment and externalize responsibility is, in the end, just going to serve as a roadblock to coming to terms with that personal responsibility. True or not I don't think its a productive thing to dwell on.
For individuals,sure.
For communities as a whole, looking at contributing factors in an integral part of public health planning and prevention.
Identifying barriers to healthy lifestyle is a major component of tackling widespread obesity and changing population trends.
I don't think it's very useful to put the blame on society, government, etc. even if it's partly or mostly true. Waiting for the government to fix its food and exercise policies isn't going to do much good, and encouraging that way of thinking is counterproductive. Even if government policies changed, people would still have to voluntarily take part for them to do any good. People who have been taught to wait for someone else to fix it instead of taking responsibility for themselves aren't in a good position to do that.
But I think as a society we might want to make whatever changes we can to encourage better eating and more exercise, even if we have no obligation to do that. It would be in our interest to have a fitter, healthier populace. One of the driving forces behind having phys ed classes in school was the need for healthy combat troops. A large percentage of recruits or draftees weren't fit for combat. Today a more pressing reason might be the fact that the public has to foot the bill for a lot of people's medical care.5 -
We live in a nice HOA neighborhood connected to another - we have sidewalks. Outside of the neighborhood you'd be crazy to try and walk/bike on the roads. The main roads that surround our neighborhood are narrow with no shoulders. People drive aggressively because our roads have long since supported the population growth here.
The city has been adding bike paths every time they improve/expand roads, which is great. We are also a beach city so there is a long boardwalk and a very nice state park with trails. I feel fortunate to be able to drive to location(s) where I can safely run. I can also run around my neighborhood, but after living here for 11 years it's gotten pretty boring.1 -
Strange as it might sound, I agree with both of you.Aaron_K123 wrote: »I think the first step needed for dealing with ones obesity is first to acknowledge your responsibility for your own body and take personal responsibility for it regardless of what circumstances got you there it is you that will have to work to achieve the goal you want of being fit or healthier.
I think trying to point towards society or circumstance or environment and externalize responsibility is, in the end, just going to serve as a roadblock to coming to terms with that personal responsibility. True or not I don't think its a productive thing to dwell on.
For individuals,sure.
For communities as a whole, looking at contributing factors in an integral part of public health planning and prevention.
Identifying barriers to healthy lifestyle is a major component of tackling widespread obesity and changing population trends.
I don't think it's very useful to put the blame on society, government, etc. even if it's partly or mostly true. Waiting for the government to fix its food and exercise policies isn't going to do much good, and encouraging that way of thinking is counterproductive. Even if government policies changed, people would still have to voluntarily take part for them to do any good. People who have been taught to wait for someone else to fix it instead of taking responsibility for themselves aren't in a good position to do that.
But I think as a society we might want to make whatever changes we can to encourage better eating and more exercise, even if we have no obligation to do that. It would be in our interest to have a fitter, healthier populace. One of the driving forces behind having phys ed classes in school was the need for healthy combat troops. A large percentage of recruits or draftees weren't fit for combat. Today a more pressing reason might be the fact that the public has to foot the bill for a lot of people's medical care.
I agree in as much as I think it would be good to steer society towards teaching individuals to take more personal responsibility for their own bodies. But yeah, ultimately it is up to the individual and I don't think it makes sense to blame society.5 -
We live in a nice HOA neighborhood connected to another - we have sidewalks. Outside of the neighborhood you'd be crazy to try and walk/bike on the roads. The main roads that surround our neighborhood are narrow with no shoulders. People drive aggressively because our roads have long since supported the population growth here.
The city has been adding bike paths every time they improve/expand roads, which is great. We are also a beach city so there is a long boardwalk and a very nice state park with trails. I feel fortunate to be able to drive to location(s) where I can safely run. I can also run around my neighborhood, but after living here for 11 years it's gotten pretty boring.
Lol. Bettet get the world's smallest violin out. Neighborhood friendly to walking/biking,state park and beach close by, just boring after being around too long.-1 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »What are these suburbs with no sidewalks?
I live in a small town in Iowa - population about 5K. Sidewalks are not regulated... it is up to each individual homeowner to decide if they will install and maintain a sidewalk. As a result, we have sidewalks in some places that cover part of a block, sometimes the entire block has a sidewalk and the next block has none at all. Most places where there is a sidewalk are not well maintained.
There was a discussion recently in a Des Moines suburb (Windsor Heights, if you want to look this up) about sidewalks. Some residents wanted sidewalks installed in various places, and other residents (the more vocal ones) did not want sidewalks. One of the streets of highest contention is a very high-traffic street with sidewalks on only 1 side. There was debate about whether sidewalks should be installed on the other side without a sidewalk. Those who did not want sidewalks to be installed lobbied as though their life depended on having grass all the way to the road.
#1) I'm also in small town IA. *waving*
#2) That is one massive cat!
Not much for sidewalks in our small town either, but most times of day, you can walk down the middle of the street here with virtually no problem. I grew up in Urbandale in the 70s and I don't think your foot ever needed to come into contact with a blade of grass. I doubt that's true in the newer developments now. Is it an aesthetic thing or do people just not want to *invite* strangers to walk across their yard?0 -
On this very forum there are 2 long threads about fat acceptance, that's the #1 environmental factor.3
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VioletRojo wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »What are these suburbs with no sidewalks? I live in a suburb of Albuquerque...we have side walks. I have a grocery store about a mile away and we often walk if we're just picking up a few things. There's a nice little local restaurant about 1.5 miles away that we often walk to for breakfast on weekends as a family...in fact, there are any number of places that we could walk to around us, including school if we were so inclined. I've never lived in the city...I and my extended family have always lived in the burbs so I'm really not sure I'm buying that.
[snip]
I live in one of those suburbs without sidewalks. Our neighborhood, and most of the neighborhoods in our town, were built in the sixties and seventies and apparently this was normal in our rural county at the time. Before our developments were built, there were no real neighborhoods in our county.
BTW, I'm in California
I live in California, no sidewalks where I live too! I still walk though, facing traffic. Lol1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »I think the first step needed for dealing with ones obesity is first to acknowledge your responsibility for your own body and take personal responsibility for it regardless of what circumstances got you there it is you that will have to work to achieve the goal you want of being fit or healthier.
I think trying to point towards society or circumstance or environment and externalize responsibility is, in the end, just going to serve as a roadblock to coming to terms with that personal responsibility. True or not I don't think its a productive thing to dwell on.
Personal responsibility is all well and good (and truly important) and will be enough in a certain segment of the population but if you want to actually fix the problem of systemic obesity I think public health planning and environmental factors make a ton of sense.
Why not work to create environments where people naturally live healthier lifestyles without having to even think about will power or personal responsibility?
A specific example in my current town is that there are 4 neighborhood elementary schools that are within walking distance for approximately 60% of the school district, but no one was walking to school because the kids would have to cross a couple of fairly busy roads. So the school went back to hiring crossing guards a few years ago (for the first time since the early 80s) and now about 40% of kids walk or ride bikes to our elementary. It is a much healthier choice that was solved by an environmental change.
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squatsanddeadlift wrote: »
First, do you actually believe the weight loss industry really want people to lose weight?5 -
On this very forum there are 2 long threads about fat acceptance, that's the #1 environmental factor.
Pretty sure those threads are mostly about the problems with a certain type of "fat acceptance," as well as some other saying other types helped them lose weight.
So, no.
That obesity is more common, especially in some segments of society (other social groups can have quite low levels of obesity), probably does make people less bothered by it, but that's not the same thing as "fat acceptance." Before I came to MFP I had never heard of HAES or its most "well-known" public faces, and I suspect the vast majority of people I know haven't either, so claiming they are responsible for obesity is to way overestimate their influence, IMO.4 -
StarBrightStarBright wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I think the first step needed for dealing with ones obesity is first to acknowledge your responsibility for your own body and take personal responsibility for it regardless of what circumstances got you there it is you that will have to work to achieve the goal you want of being fit or healthier.
I think trying to point towards society or circumstance or environment and externalize responsibility is, in the end, just going to serve as a roadblock to coming to terms with that personal responsibility. True or not I don't think its a productive thing to dwell on.
Personal responsibility is all well and good (and truly important) and will be enough in a certain segment of the population but if you want to actually fix the problem of systemic obesity I think public health planning and environmental factors make a ton of sense.
Why not work to create environments where people naturally live healthier lifestyles without having to even think about will power or personal responsibility?
A specific example in my current town is that there are 4 neighborhood elementary schools that are within walking distance for approximately 60% of the school district, but no one was walking to school because the kids would have to cross a couple of fairly busy roads. So the school went back to hiring crossing guards a few years ago (for the first time since the early 80s) and now about 40% of kids walk or ride bikes to our elementary. It is a much healthier choice that was solved by an environmental change.
How exactly would that work?
Provide sidewalks and people, without thinking, tend to drive anyway because that is their habit - unless the cost of driving is significant (NYC, etc). It is especially hard to break such a habit if walking is uncomfortable for reasons of health, weather, environment. Walking next to major traffic and sucking exhaust is not enjoyable, for example. You'd need to make walking enticing enough for that to make a significant difference. Having a some kind of desirable destination where driving is not preferred or lovely views would be key - and that's not feasible in a lot of places.
The ability to walk to school is nice - lots of kids have that here. But they're only walking a couple of blocks. There are safety issues with kids being without parental supervision in the city - and the parents aren't walking with them. If they have more than a couple of blocks to go, they are driven to school by a parent or in a bus. My city still ranks right up there with the most obese.
I think people are overlooking an important factor about the more outdoor-focused states having less obesity. It isn't just that having outdoor activities available makes people more active, though that is definitely part of it. It is also that active people that enjoy the outdoors tend to want to move to those places so those states also have a higher percentage of the population that want to be active regardless of where they live.4 -
I do think environmental factors are worth understanding, since as individuals seeking to avoid obesity being aware can make it easier. Also, if there are things that could be changed that would make it easier for people, why not understand it. I don't think the US is much fatter now because we lost self control. I think the environments are different -- often in really good ways, as I think it's good that we have more conveniences and generally don't have to worry about starving and that food is largely cheap.2
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Packerjohn wrote: »We live in a nice HOA neighborhood connected to another - we have sidewalks. Outside of the neighborhood you'd be crazy to try and walk/bike on the roads. The main roads that surround our neighborhood are narrow with no shoulders. People drive aggressively because our roads have long since supported the population growth here.
The city has been adding bike paths every time they improve/expand roads, which is great. We are also a beach city so there is a long boardwalk and a very nice state park with trails. I feel fortunate to be able to drive to location(s) where I can safely run. I can also run around my neighborhood, but after living here for 11 years it's gotten pretty boring.
Lol. Bettet get the world's smallest violin out. Neighborhood friendly to walking/biking,state park and beach close by, just boring after being around too long.
Where do I get one?
No really, I think I live is a pretty good location. I wouldn't use my environment dictate my fitness. So if my neighborhood is less than ideal (boring) I drive where it is better. When it's freezing or sweltering hot, I workout indoors in the heat or air conditioning.1 -
I think that looking at the Netherlands is interesting. The Dutch are famous throughout Europe for their country's cycle use, but it wasn't always that way. It was a governmental/social decision to facilitate safe cycling, in order to reduce the number of road deaths and their country's dependence on foreign oil in the 1970s, not something that just happened. Today, the Dutch government spends €470 million (£401 million) a year on cycle lanes and facilities.
Funnily enough, they have a lower projected problem with obesity than any other European country.
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-2358791Before World War II, journeys in the Netherlands were predominantly made by bike, but in the 1950s and 1960s, as car ownership rocketed, this changed. As in many countries in Europe, roads became increasingly congested and cyclists were squeezed to the kerb.
The jump in car numbers caused a huge rise in the number of deaths on the roads. In 1971 more than 3,000 people were killed by motor vehicles, 450 of them children.
In response a social movement demanding safer cycling conditions for children was formed. Called Stop de Kindermoord (Stop the Child Murder), it took its name from the headline of an article written by journalist Vic Langenhoff whose own child had been killed in a road accident.
The Dutch faith in the reliability and sustainability of the motor vehicle was also shaken by the Middle East oil crisis of 1973, when oil-producing countries stopped exports to the US and Western Europe.
These twin pressures helped to persuade the Dutch government to invest in improved cycling infrastructure and Dutch urban planners started to diverge from the car-centric road-building policies being pursued throughout the urbanising West.
To make cycling safer and more inviting the Dutch have built a vast network of cycle paths.
These are clearly marked, have smooth surfaces, separate signs and lights for those on two wheels, and wide enough to allow side-by-side cycling and overtaking.
In many cities the paths are completely segregated from motorised traffic. Sometimes, where space is scant and both must share, you can see signs showing an image of a cyclist with a car behind accompanied by the words 'Bike Street: Cars are guests'.
At roundabouts, too, it is those using pedal power who have priority.
You can cycle around a roundabout while cars (almost always) wait patiently for you to pass. The idea that "the bike is right" is such an alien concept for tourists on bikes that many often find it difficult to navigate roads and junctions at first.
Alternative source6 -
Why not work to create environments where people naturally live healthier lifestyles without having to even think about will power or personal responsibility?
Because that isn't the role of society in my opinion. The role of society isn't to spend resources in order to get people what they want, its to get people what they need. If you want to be physically fit then you have to work for it not be handed it, its actually impossible to be handed it...at somepoint you have to work for it.
Talk about how society needs to change or about how people aren't exercising because of "enviornmental" reasons might sound good but the reality of it more times than not is that it serves as an excuse, not as a source of motivation for actual change. Oh I would exercise but there aren't any sidewalks in my neighborhood so its difficult to run. I wish tax payers would rally together and pay to build sidewalks in my neighborhood so that I might become physically fit. Said person now waits dutifully for sidewalks telling themself they will start to exercise just as soon as society bands together and builds them some sidewalks. Is that the goal here? I am sorry but I have a hard time believing that obesity is due to a lack of sidewalks.
Are there some enviornmental factors out there? Quite possibly...but they serve as a distraction from what actually needs to be done, focusing on them will get us nowhere.2 -
Just to take this to an extreme to make a point....
It is very true that I don't exercise as much as I should largely due to my decisions of what is important in my life. I put a lot of time into my job because often I prioritize making a living sometimes above my physical health. If I didn't have to work i would suddenly have an extra 11+ hours every day and I think if I had that I probably would do a lot more physical activity and I probably would be healthier as a result. So is that an "enviornmental" factor? Should society help me out by making it so I don't have to work? Does society owe me that now? Perhaps if they aren't willing to take care of me so I don't have to work the least they could do would be to improve my commute so I'd have more time to workout. They should add lanes to the freeway to shorten commute times so that I might go for a run in the morning.
You might argue that is different but its really not, its just taking that concept and running with it. X is preventing me from working out so therefore society should pay to take care of X so that I can work out.
I believe having access to healthcare and treatment for serious illness is a right. Being physically fit however is not a right, its not something society owes us. When you ask society to change or do something you are essentially asking other people to help you pay for something. I think its fair to ask for help to pay for a needed surgery to save your life, I don't think its fair to ask for money for a gym membership.1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Why not work to create environments where people naturally live healthier lifestyles without having to even think about will power or personal responsibility?
Because that isn't the role of society in my opinion. The role of society isn't to spend resources in order to get people what they want, its to get people what they need.
When "society" (which is amorphous, and we are talking about a lot of different aspects of society here) acts, a lot of times it is making a choice between two things, neither of which is exactly need-based. For example, town planning. You can build sidewalks or not. You can decide to make the town walkable and structure it around a town center, or not. You can try to make public transportation accessible, or not; to have parks, or not; to be bike-friendly, or not. None of those things are NEEDED (but neither is the opposite and often the "society" will act in some way, either way). They might make quality of life better, and they might make the community more friendly for activity (which of course ultimately depends on the choices made by the people who live there). I think there are reasons well beyond a possible (largely speculative, IMO) affect on obesity to favor most of these things, and I would actively choose to live in a community with them vs. without them (which is another thing the community itself would likely consider in planning -- not me specifically, of course).
I see no reason why these would be bad things to discuss.4 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »They should add lanes to the freeway to shorten commute times so that I might go for a run in the morning.
When commute times are hugely long due to congestion and this is a possible option, it is something that is done, and should be. I don't see a big difference between freeways=need, additional lanes if population grows beyond what was originally anticipated=just a want and a silly thing for people to think should be done, which is what you seem to be saying.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
The fact there are multiple types of these movements means there is a problem. It means there is a support network for people who are "HAES".That obesity is more common, especially in some segments of society (other social groups can have quite low levels of obesity), probably does make people less bothered by it, but that's not the same thing as "fat acceptance." Before I came to MFP I had never heard of HAES or its most "well-known" public faces, and I suspect the vast majority of people I know haven't either, so claiming they are responsible for obesity is to way overestimate their influence, IMO.
Because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it hasn't existed for a long time.0
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