April 2017 Running Challenge
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I am going to go on a rare case where I actually disagree with @MobyCarp
I think it's even more important for an amateur marathoner to train fasted. Your body is in worse shape to use fat for fuel than an elite. You absolutely need to teach your body to use fat for fuel if it takes you 4 or 5 hours to run a marathon. An elite can run a marathon just a little over 2 hours and knows exactly what his/her fastest pace at an aerobic level is. Newbies don't. So they will more likely to prematurely exhaust their glycogen supplies. In fact, in my opinion, gels (and other forms of mid race fuel) help an amateur less than an elite.
You cannot in any way possible run a decent or even half decent 4-5 hour run on carbs alone, whether glycogen stored or mid race fueling. There is absolutely no way 5 or 6 or even 8 100 calorie gels packs can in any way make a significant impact when you're burning over 4000, 5000, even 6000 calories in a marathon. You have to teach your body to burn fat for fuel for a long period of time.
This is one where I wholeheartedly fall into @Stoshew71's line of thought and reasoning. Like most people, I have enough glycogen for about 2 hours or so of running, and I cannot run a marathon in 2 hours. Therefore, the more I can teach my body to utilise fat for fuel, the longer I can be out there.
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4/2-3.32 miles
4/3-3 miles
4/5-3.5 miles
4/6-2.5 miles
total-12.32 miles
really wanted to run more last night, i was feeling great, but my legs started getting really stiff, so I stopped. taking tonight off from running, probably do a little on the elliptical, and some lifting.
I asked my husband what he thought about taking a weekend and going to Missoula, Mt., so I could do a half marathon, Its 5 hours away, and he surprisingly agreed, so theres another race i will be doing.
Then yesterday I was talking to my boss and he mentioned he was doing the Montana Marathon with me and my other co worker who conned me into doing it with her. If he was a typical boss, that would suck, but hes a pretty awesome boss, so its pretty cool.
Training for:
5/14-womens run-5mile
7/10- Missoula Marathon-HM
9/17- Montana Marathon-Full marathon
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Too cold for me to run outside today, so 5 miles on the dreadmill. Looking forward to hiking some this weekend!
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I had the best run yesterday. I felt amazing. The weather was perfect. A tad windy, but I kind of enjoyed it at the same time. I felt like I was flying, I know I wasn't and I'm super slow, but it felt good. I got 4.5 miles in, so I am up to 13.5 miles for the month. I have 11.5 more to go to reach my goal. I go to Orangetheory today, so I will get in maybe a mile or so there. I'm excited about my new found runner's high!8
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jessicalferrara wrote: »I had the best run yesterday. I felt amazing. The weather was perfect. A tad windy, but I kind of enjoyed it at the same time. I felt like I was flying, I know I wasn't and I'm super slow, but it felt good. I got 4.5 miles in, so I am up to 13.5 miles for the month. I have 11.5 more to go to reach my goal. I go to Orangetheory today, so I will get in maybe a mile or so there. I'm excited about my new found runner's high!
you're totally going to surpass your goal. Great job!1 -
On the fasted runs to train your body to burn fat for fuel, I agree that it is important since I am slow (I wish I was a 4-5 hour marathoner). I have a question for @Stoshew71 though because if you read the posts literally then in between the lines in those it would seem that one would do a long run in a fasted state and take no gels or anything during the run. This is not what I do, learned to do, or have ever heard as sensible advice, so I feel compelled to ask about it.
Like @garygse, I can go about 2 hours on glycogen stores alone, meaning I can start a run in a fasted state and just run through the whole 2 hours taking in only water (if necessary). If my run will be longer than 2 hours this does not work and I refuel, at which point I take gels. At the moment on runs where I refuel I refuel about every 50 minutes but I also know I can cut that back on some runs. For example, a 2.5 hour run it is possible to get by with one refueling about 1:30-1:45 into the run. One way to look at this is the "cookie cutter" advice commonly heard on half marathons about taking a gel at the 8 mile mark. If I were going to run for a long time, say 3+ hours, then I would refuel every 45-50 minutes, no exception.
All that said, if there is some sort of data or personal experiences out there about running 2.5+ hours in a fasted state with zero refueling, I'm ready to hear it since it would be a new concept to me. I'm not sure how the *kitten* it is possible, but I'm all ears.
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MNLittleFinn wrote: »jessicalferrara wrote: »I had the best run yesterday. I felt amazing. The weather was perfect. A tad windy, but I kind of enjoyed it at the same time. I felt like I was flying, I know I wasn't and I'm super slow, but it felt good. I got 4.5 miles in, so I am up to 13.5 miles for the month. I have 11.5 more to go to reach my goal. I go to Orangetheory today, so I will get in maybe a mile or so there. I'm excited about my new found runner's high!
you're totally going to surpass your goal. Great job!
Thank you so much! I'm excited to pass it and see how many miles I can get in!
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@WhatMeRunning To make longer runs in a fasted state with zero refueling, I just run slower so that the percentage of fat burnt for fuel increases, and therefore less glycogen is used. That, in effect, opens up my running window so that I can go for 3+ hours.0
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Thanks @girlinahat. I really do enjoy running at the park. I don't really have a need to increase my pace other than just wanting to improve every time I run. I am hoping to sign up for my first 5k soon, but I live in a pretty rural area and the local 5ks are few and far between. I know they usually have one for the animal shelter so I have been on the look out for the sign up info.0
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I was actually smart last night and skipped my run to let my knee get better. It feels ok to run, but I don't want to risk my weekend for a few miles that don't matter much. I immediately followed that up with being stupid by overeating and staying up until 1:30am. My wife left yesterday for a week and I have a terrible time getting to sleep at a decent time when she's gone. And I justified the eating by saying I was carbo-loading. yeah right.
@MNLittleFinn I agree with @MobyCarp on why you practice fueling, but I also agree with @Stoshew71 about the big benefits to training fasted . I've posted about the fasted long run a few times but your post made me realize I never mentioned one key point. I don't think you should do a fasted long run when your long run is going to be a distance PR. We want to increase stress from just one factor per run. Distance PR + fasted = 2 stresses. If you have the same distance planned next week, why not make that the fasted run? And if you're doing a fasted run, skip the breakfast before hand if you can or it's not really a fasted run. If you need something for heartburn, maybe a saltine or two. Based on the fact that you asked the question, I take it that your marathon plan doesn't address the issue of fasted vs. fueled runs, and when you should be doing them? If honey stingers work, why do need to try anything else?
This training cycle I've made huge gains from fasted runs every other weekend and now could likely to go 20 miles
or more with no fuel at all. I wouldn't do that at MP, but for my slow long runs, I can go and go and go. For my 17 mile race tomorrow, which is a training run for me, I'm not going to carry any fuel or water. I will likely grab water at the 4 aid stations, but will only grab food if they have something that looks really good.
One great benefit of the fasted long run that no one talks about...I'd much rather get my calories from real food (and beer!) after the run than from sickly sweet gels or sports drink during the run.
The opposing thought to @Stoshew71 , I don't think you need to take this week's long run any slower than your previous distance PR pace. Keep the same pace and you're only adding the one stress of increased distance so no problem.
@WhatMeRunning my longest fasted long run was 19.2 miles, and took me 3hr, 12min. No food OR water the entire route. I could feel a drop in energy during the last few miles and my pace dropped but I wouldn't say it was uncomfortable. A fasted run is just that...no calories before or during the run. Like @garygse says, you may need to drop your pace, particularly if you're new to fasted runs, to increase the percentage of fat burned. Now with this discussion I wonder just how far I could push it. Maybe Sunday I'll see how far I can push it.
@kgirlhart while running hills may be slower than running the flats, it will definitely help you become faster. If you train for 2 weeks on hilly trails vs. 2 weeks on flat track, distance and effort being equal, I'd just about guarantee you that you'd end up faster running hilly trails even though it's a slower pace.
I firmly believe that above all, run for fun, not to optimize every single aspect of your running. Now if doing that is fun for you, go for it, but if you want to run hills, run hills. If you want to run an flat oval track, run a flat oval track. None of us is getting paid for this, so enjoying what we're doing should be goal #1.
During my last long run I started thinking about my training, what I've been doing leading up to my ultra, and how I've got my training mapped out through the summer and I've decided that for the month of May (after my big race), I'm deleting everything and running when, where, as far, and as fast as I feel like at the time. I won't be running because I have a number on a spreadsheet. I won't be pushed, or limited, but what I thought I should be doing a few weeks earlier. Just run for fun.
@angmarie28 for a while my son was considering going to Montana State and I was drooling about all the awesome trail running I could do while I was out there to visit him...but no, he's in Milwaukee now.
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@7lenny7 Good input. I ran my first 15 mile run totally fasted, and it was a distance PR when I ran it, so I've run fasted distance PR's before.
Looking at my log, I really only have eaten before 2 of my long runs, so I'm starting to think that the heartburn thing may or may not be a food thing. I think there's just a lot of new experiences since I'm pushing out distance pretty well beyond HM distance now, so I'm seeing more things that didn't happen when my long runs were <10 miles......0 -
I'm loving all of this talking about fueling and fasted runs. I really need to buckle down and work out my strategy for all of this. I would really like to get my body trained to recruit more fat for energy so that I can be as well prepared as possible for my November marathon. I'm using Pfitzinger's training plans, and I don't think he really talks about fasted training, so I'm going to do some more widespread research.1
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Thanks @girlinahat. I really do enjoy running at the park. I don't really have a need to increase my pace other than just wanting to improve every time I run. I am hoping to sign up for my first 5k soon, but I live in a pretty rural area and the local 5ks are few and far between. I know they usually have one for the animal shelter so I have been on the look out for the sign up info.
You may want to try AthLinks or Active.com to look for local races.1 -
Thanks @garygse and @7lenny7 for the feedback. I am pretty intrigued. Very fascinating. I'm not surprised about running slower, but I am surprised about being able to effectively do it with no fuel of any sort. I'm looking at it as you set out at a pace like for an ultra event. The difference being that on such an ultra event you would be fueling. I was simply unaware that anyone ran for periods that long completely fasted.1
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Hi all
Aim: 130k
4/2: 13.1k -casual run-
4/3: 1.5k -cause I am lazy, that's why-
4/4: 4k -as c/d of leg day training-
4/6: 5k -after gym-
4/7: 8.5k -intervals-
32.1/130k
This time it was awesome!!
Stay free of injuries!3 -
I posted this recently, but this is the information I'm using to GRADUALLY increase my ability to run fasted.
https://run.mcmillanrunning.com/the-marathon-long-run/
12 miles is probably the max I've run fasted, which is about 2 hours. But that's only if conditions are right, such as cool weather and flat/easy terrain. If I'm trail running in the heat with the Texas sun beating down on me...I'm not gonna last even 12 miles. I'm up to 10 miles in those conditions. My goal is to add about a mile a week. I'm still taking on water and Powerade 0 (electrolytes but no carbs). I'm also still eating a light breakfast before hand, but I'll eventually eliminate that as well. Like the article says, I do plan on taking a gel with me, even if I don't plan on using it. It's not that I get tired, I get light headed and dizzy which could potentially be dangerous.
My point is that everyone is different. @MNLittleFinn is already running some pretty long distances without fuel so he may not need it, but at some point, it is beneficial to practice fueling techniques, and when running fasted, it might be a good idea to take bring along a gel for emergency purposes until at least you know how you'll react to running that distance without fuel.2 -
I just reread everything in the fasted/fueled discussion we've been having, and it reminded me why I love this group! I'll probably go back and forth in my mind, over whether or not I want to run tomorrow fasted or fueled, until I actually get in the truck to go to my start point tomorrow. I haven't run carryint fuel yet, so I think there's some apprehension about carrying FOOD....LOL, never thought I'd be apprehensive about having something to eat!
The other part is that, like @7lenny7 , I prefer getting my calories through real food, and my tradition of eating whole pizzas on Saturday afternoons has been a fun one.
@BeeerRunner what you said is the reason I'm thinking that, if I decided to try a fasted run tomorrow, I'll stick a gel or 2 in my pocket, just so it's there if I really need it.1 -
Thanks @7lenny7. And thanks for those links @baskins929. I will check those out.0
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@BeeerRunner You're completely right in that everyone's different, so what may work for some may not be as effective for others. And yes, I always make sure to carry gels in case I really need something...better to have something and not need it than the other way around!
@WhatMeRunning Similar to @7lenny7, my longest run while fasted was 19 miles, which took me 3:13 to complete, and I certainly started to feel it towards the end. I reckon I could push it to somewhere around 20-22, but after that point I would definitely need something.
It's an interesting topic, for sure.2 -
Allright, tomorrow's long run has been adjusted on my Garmin. Modified my low and high HR alerts so I will be going slower and should average smack in the middle of the Easy Aerobic effort range (Daniels tables). I'll be setting out with 1 gel and plan NOT to take it. Just a bit ago I would have expected to finish the planned mileage in about 2:20, with the adjusted pace I'll probably be 2:30.
I'm so excited I could pee!
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MNLittleFinn wrote: »So, I've been thinking about putting on my hydration belt, grabbing 6 gels (enough for 1 gel every 4 miles) and suing this weekend's run as a practice for fueling. Part of me wants to, but part of me is thinking that it might be better to just get the mileage PR this week and bring the fuel on my ruin next week, since they will be the same distance....The things I never thought I'd think about a year ago.....What do you guys think? Or is this another case of me over thinking and being a nervous first time marathoner?
Freudian slip, perhaps?
@MNLittleFinn I posted this on your other training chronicle thread, but I also wanted to post it here. Even if you don't plan to use a gel on your long run, it's a good idea to take one or two with you just in case. You don't want to crash in the middle of nowhere and you never know what your body may do. Also, it's never beneficial to run dehydrated, so you should still take water along too.
Last night I ran 4 miles after having 3 days of rest and my legs felt fantastic. If it wasn't for the fact that it was a mix of rain and sleet with super strong winds and I had only packed shorts, I probably would have stayed out there forever. Tomorrow I will do a final 8-10 mile run and then I am going to spend most of next week just resting because, damn, it felt great to run on fresh legs!
I had my final PT and needling session this morning. I forgot to post the picture I promised from a few weeks back, so here it is. Today he bent one of the needles on my hammie and it hurt like a mother. i think I almost vomited on the table. But right now my legs feel amazing. So funny how that works!
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@lporter229 LOL, I didn't even notice that! I replied in my thread as well, but I'll reply ere too. I really liked your thinking. I think what I'll do is take a gel or 2 with, so I have that option, but the plan will be a "fasted run" with the back up plan of getting some fuel in me if I need it.
I'll probably take my hydration belt too, so I get used to running with it because, if I *GASP* sign up for that 50k, I'd more than likely be running with it anyway, so I figure it's good to start getting practice with it now.1 -
@lporter299 cool needling, the PT was talking of doing that with me when I had a hammie that wouldn't let go, it must have scared hammie because she left go
@mobycarp love the bling, is that made of wood?
Interesting discussion on fueling.
Skip and I are both dropping out of the HM this Sunday. I hate it but we had a long talk last night. Her hammie was hurting earlier in the week and I haven't run over 4 miles per my PT so we decided to find ourselves a vacation destination half to run later in the summer. I really didn't want to not be able to honestly run this and she refuses to do anything but run her best.6 -
1---4.48
3---3.05
5---2.85 walk
7---71 steps bedroom, kitchen to couch to get the last cupcake and some coffee. A.K.A. rest day
@lporter229 I had a ct guided steroid shot today (in my hip at the trochanter). It hurt like a mother and I made an *kitten* of myself-got a princess band aid to prove it. I can't sit still. Can you sit still through it? I act the same way with the piriformis shots. And the SI joint shot.... I was fine with the shoulder shots tho... Tell me how to be tough like you!
10.38/30
RACES!!!
XTERRA Rock Dallas Trail Run (HM at night) May 27 (Tentative)
XTERRA Jurassic Trail Run (HM at night) Jul 8 (Tentative)2 -
skippygirlsmom wrote: »Skip and I are both dropping out of the HM this Sunday. I hate it but we had a long talk last night. Her hammie was hurting earlier in the week and I haven't run over 4 miles per my PT so we decided to find ourselves a vacation destination half to run later in the summer. I really didn't want to not be able to honestly run this and she refuses to do anything but run her best.
Sucks that you had do drop out, but I think you made the right choice. Running injured and/or unprepared would not have been good.0 -
@skippygirlsmom the right choice is often the toughest choice. I hate bailing out on a race but there is a sense of relief when you know you did the right thing.
Now I have to ask...are you sure Skip wasn't just giving you a story about her hamstring so she could get that destination race out of you
Sounds like an awesome time!
It's 1pm and bailing out on work. All I can think about is what i need for tomorrow's race, when I need to get up and all that sort of stuff. It's in the boonies, with no cell service and a half hour to the nearest small town. The weather should be perfect! The 100 mile runners have already started, the 50 mile runners start at midnight, and we start at 8 or 9 am. I need to check on that I suppose.2 -
skippygirlsmom wrote: »
Skip and I are both dropping out of the HM this Sunday. I hate it but we had a long talk last night. Her hammie was hurting earlier in the week and I haven't run over 4 miles per my PT so we decided to find ourselves a vacation destination half to run later in the summer. I really didn't want to not be able to honestly run this and she refuses to do anything but run her best.
Smart decision. And you'll both be happy to do a runcation!1 -
April Running challenge
Goal: 100 km
Ran: 29.8/100 km
7/4/17 Run 7.4 km walk 3 km
6/4/17 Run 8.4 km walk 9 km
5/4/17 walk 9 km
4/4/17 Run 7 km
3/4/17 Run 7 km walk 6 km
2/4/17 walk 3 km
1/4/17 walk 7 km
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April Running Challenge
4/1 Eagle Mt cleanup: picked up trash with the family for 2 hours, filled 6 trash bags between the 3 of us.
4/2 13.1 mile run.
4/3 Strength, 12.3 miles stationary bike, yoga
4/4 9.8 miles stationary bike
4/5 12.35 miles stationary bike
4/6 40 minutes elliptical, 20 minutes stationary bike
4/7 40 minute slow dog walk
Goal: 13.1 of 150
Completed Races:
Cowtown Marathon (Full) Feb 26 (Registered): 3:54:06 / 8:56 min/mile
Upcoming Races:
Chicago Spring Half Marathon: May 21 (Registered)
Run the Rails 5K June 3 (Tentative)
XTERRA Jurassic Trail Run (HM at night) Jul 8 (Tentative)
La Sportiva Vail Half Marathon: Jul 22 (Tentative)
Milwaukee Lakefront Marathon: Oct 1 (Tentative)
Just walked my sweet Spotty, but it didn't go so well. My calf has felt fine walking around the house, biking and doing the elliptical, but it certainly did not feel great today. So discouraged because I really wanted to run this weekend. It's very low on the pain scale...a 1.5 to 2, but definitely more than just tightness. I worry that if I run on it, my calf will either get worse or prolong getting back to 100%.
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