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What the Health?
Replies
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I'm not sure what my frustration with having my ethical choices mocked daily have to do with "48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery etc" just because you feel I shouldn't care about mocking jokes doesn't negate my feelings. Just as it wouldn't make your past issues any less important to you. Trust me, I joke and laugh off A LOT of things but eventually you need to stand up for yourself. Should a thin person just "laugh it off" every time someone tells them to eat a burger? No, because after a while it's hurtful. This forum is certainly not the first place I've had to defend my personal habits, because my 36 years of life experiences; domestic violence, dealing with ED, depression, anxiety, loss and disease has taught me the VALUE of sticking up for myself.
Considering she didn't mock your choices, but you railed against her joke regarding her own choices, you may wish to reconsider your line of thought.
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I'm not sure what my frustration with having my ethical choices mocked daily have to do with "48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery etc" just because you feel I shouldn't care about mocking jokes doesn't negate my feelings. Just as it wouldn't make your past issues any less important to you. Trust me, I joke and laugh off A LOT of things but eventually you need to stand up for yourself. Should a thin person just "laugh it off" every time someone tells them to eat a burger? No, because after a while it's hurtful. This forum is certainly not the first place I've had to defend my personal habits, because my 36 years of life experiences; domestic violence, dealing with ED, depression, anxiety, loss and disease has taught me the VALUE of sticking up for myself.
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Now back to the actual topic, like I said in my OP I do agree that the documentary was overly dramatic, and I also said that some things should be taken with a grain of salt because everyone needs to research their own choices. So, let me clarify; what I did enjoy about the film is the discussion of the link between big Ag, major corporations and our healthcare systems. Many of these major non-profits (Like Susan G. Komen/American Heart Association) are sponsored by huge companies that may not really reflect the mission of the brand.
Also, I would like to note that I am an ethical vegan, not a vegan for health reasons so perhaps my opinion is a little different than some who may try to bash studies and numbers into peoples heads. I don't feel that food should be demonized, that's how people develop unhealthy relationships with food. What I do think is that people need to be empowered and make choices for themselves, and if a (flawed) documentary lights a fire and helps them decide to make positive changes or sparks them to start to do some research, I consider that a win.
I rather see people empowered to make choices by themselves by exposure to scientifically accurate information and not scare mongering garbage. I rather people make informed decisions than make decisions based on fear and cherry picked data.21 -
I'm not sure what my frustration with having my ethical choices mocked daily have to do with "48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery etc" just because you feel I shouldn't care about mocking jokes doesn't negate my feelings. Just as it wouldn't make your past issues any less important to you. Trust me, I joke and laugh off A LOT of things but eventually you need to stand up for yourself. Should a thin person just "laugh it off" every time someone tells them to eat a burger? No, because after a while it's hurtful. This forum is certainly not the first place I've had to defend my personal habits, because my 36 years of life experiences; domestic violence, dealing with ED, depression, anxiety, loss and disease has taught me the VALUE of sticking up for myself.
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Now back to the actual topic, like I said in my OP I do agree that the documentary was overly dramatic, and I also said that some things should be taken with a grain of salt because everyone needs to research their own choices. So, let me clarify; what I did enjoy about the film is the discussion of the link between big Ag, major corporations and our healthcare systems. Many of these major non-profits (Like Susan G. Komen/American Heart Association) are sponsored by huge companies that may not really reflect the mission of the brand.
Also, I would like to note that I am an ethical vegan, not a vegan for health reasons so perhaps my opinion is a little different than some who may try to bash studies and numbers into peoples heads. I don't feel that food should be demonized**, that's how people develop unhealthy relationships with food. What I do think is that people need to be empowered and make choices for themselves, and if a (flawed) documentary lights a fire and helps them decide to make positive changes or sparks them to start to do some research, I consider that a win.
Framing it as an allegedly ethical choice sets you up to feel superior to those who make other choices.
**animals are food. By framing your choice as ethical, you're demonizing food.7 -
Nota bene: Steak/bacon/burger jokes? Are we still doing this? I think there are ways to share your opinions without demeaning or making fun of others beliefs.Was,too busy grilling New York Strip to give it full attention
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Or..you can have a sense of humor, life is too short to take oneself so serious [/quote]0 -
The documentary was very awakening for me. I believe most the things stated in the movie. And have made a lot of changes to my diet. Unfortunately, the rest of my family is not on board so I will still have to cook separate meals.21
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1: You rearranged the order in which those happened, ostensibly to make it look worse.
2: Even so, it still doesn't back up your claim.
eta: If I may be so bold, I think the issues you've apparently faced (per your first post on this particular page of the thread) may have caused you to see things that aren't actually there.5 -
I started watching it, made it to about 10-15 minutes before I was annoyed and turned it off. I'm based in Europe, so a lot of the US documentaries on food have that effect on me. I understand that we are raised with a different attitude towards food, but nowadays people can inform themselves on the internet, so watching these films that seem to only show one (quite small) part of what is possible, frustrate me.4
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singingflutelady wrote: »
I rather see people empowered to make choices by themselves by exposure to scientifically accurate information and not scare mongering garbage. I rather people make informed decisions than make decisions based on fear and cherry picked data.
Making a decision based on fear created by inaccurate information is the opposite of being empowered.18 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Making a decision based on fear created by inaccurate information is the opposite of being empowered.
That's what I think too. Just used that word since the poster who I was responding to used it.0 -
stanmann571 wrote: »
Framing it as an allegedly ethical choice sets you up to feel superior to those who make other choices.
**animals are food. By framing your choice as ethical, you're demonizing food.
Don't we all make decisions based on our personal beliefs of what is most ethical in a given situation? Yes, some people use that as a basis to feel superior, but others don't.
Let's say someone chooses to abstain from sex in certain circumstances or feels an obligation to share a portion of their money with the less fortunate. Those are choices based on ethics, yet many people do these things without it damaging the way they see others.
I would argue that is is possible to live in a way that is consistent with one's ethics without feeling superior.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Don't we all make decisions based on our personal beliefs of what is most ethical in a given situation? Yes, some people use that as a basis to feel superior, but others don't.
Let's say someone chooses to abstain from sex in certain circumstances or feels an obligation to share a portion of their money with the less fortunate. Those are choices based on ethics, yet many people do these things without it damaging the way they see others.
I would argue that is is possible to live in a way that is consistent with one's ethics without feeling superior.
I would tend to agree, however the overall tone of the person I responded to(contrasted with your general tone.. since I recall you're also an ethical vegetarian) grated on me.0 -
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stanmann571 wrote: »
I would tend to agree, however the overall tone of the person I responded to(contrasted with your general tone.. since I recall you're also an ethical vegetarian) grated on me.
Oh, I see. Thanks for clarifying.
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singingflutelady wrote: »
That's what I think too. Just used that word since the poster who I was responding to used it.
Absolutely -- I was agreeing with you. Sorry if that wasn't clear.1 -
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I'm vegan and watched the documentary and found it interesting. One thing for sure is no one should push onto others what to eat for our health belongs to us to each decide. So why watch a documentary about vegan if your not vegan? Just a thought....2
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jennpinklady wrote: »I'm vegan and watched the documentary and found it interesting. One thing for sure is no one should push onto others what to eat for our health belongs to us to each decide. So why watch a documentary about vegan if your not vegan? Just a thought....
Because you are curious about veganism? Because people are talking about the movie and you want to know more about it? Because you want to understand the claims being made so you can argue against them? Because you're bored and want to watch something?
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jennpinklady wrote: »So why watch a documentary about vegan if your not vegan? Just a thought....
Pretty sure the purpose of these documentaries is to convince the unconvinced, i.e., the non vegans (or the non WFPB dieters).8 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
Pretty sure the purpose of these documentaries is to convince the unconvinced, i.e., the non vegans (or the non WFPB dieters).
Exactly. Propaganda is used to change people through fear.5 -
jennpinklady wrote: »I'm vegan and watched the documentary and found it interesting. One thing for sure is no one should push onto others what to eat for our health belongs to us to each decide. So why watch a documentary about vegan if your not vegan? Just a thought....
Wait, so we can only watch a documentary about something if it specifically fits who we are? If that is the case then it concerns me how many documentaries there are about murderers. If you are on MFP, especially in the forums, then there is clearly a level of interest in diet and it's relationship to health. I watched the documentary Fed Up as well and I am not anti sugar. I think it is a good thing to learn about opposing points of view to challenge your own beliefs.11 -
I haven't read what others have posted. Nor have I seen the show because I can't stand that style of documentary.
This specific information provided by this program convinced my cousin to change to vegan and make her 4 year old and 10 month old eat vegan too. She threatened to leave her husband if he didn't make the change too (no idea how that went as we aren't 'close')
I have severe concerns with the methods she is using to do this (particularly the type of "formula" she put her baby on) but I cannot control how others act or behave. I don't have the time, patience, or energy to try to convince her that she has taken this to extremes but that is how she is with everything in her life and no one can convince her of anything unless she comes to the inspired conclusion on her own based on her research she chooses to do - or not do as the case usually is.
She is also someone who fell for the "vaccines cause autism" propaganda and refused to vaccinate until last year when her oldest got a vaccine preventable illness and was in PICU for five days.8 -
SafioraLinnea wrote: »I haven't read what others have posted. Nor have I seen the show because I can't stand that style of documentary.
This specific information provided by this program convinced my cousin to change to vegan and make her 4 year old and 10 month old eat vegan too. She threatened to leave her husband if he didn't make the change too (no idea how that went as we aren't 'close')
I have severe concerns with the methods she is using to do this (particularly the type of "formula" she put her baby on) but I cannot control how others act or behave. I don't have the time, patience, or energy to try to convince her that she has taken this to extremes but that is how she is with everything in her life and no one can convince her of anything unless she comes to the inspired conclusion on her own based on her research she chooses to do - or not do as the case usually is.
She is also someone who fell for the "vaccines cause autism" propaganda and refused to vaccinate until last year when her oldest got a vaccine preventable illness and was in PICU for five days.
You'd think she'd get more weary of BS after that vaccine incident.5 -
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E"vegan"gelicals.......word to the wise. If you want people to listen just give the facts. Not weird science on it. I'm not and won't be vegan. But if that's your choice, you do you and I'll do me. Animals are tasty and good for you...I like them...a lot.2
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Yes, but please do note that both of these ways preach to you the importance of nutrient dense foods. Paleo will never tell you not to eat veggies. Hell, I eat more veggies now than I ever did. Like wise for the vegans, eat crap load of veggies but instead of meat get your proteins elsewhere. That simple. Neither does advertise that you should be eating any kind of processed foods. So although they both might be very different ways of eating and ways of life, they are very similar.
I never said anything about processed foods. I'm not sure why you quoted me..
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jennpinklady wrote: »I'm vegan and watched the documentary and found it interesting. One thing for sure is no one should push onto others what to eat for our health belongs to us to each decide. So why watch a documentary about vegan if your not vegan? Just a thought....
Just a note. Being an advocate of confirmation bias is not a good thing.7 -
Just trying to point out that paleo and vegan although very different are pretty much the same in the end. Just like any religion if you break things down, its all the same thing, and they all have they firm followers, who in the end practice the same things. Just in a different way.
They are not pretty much the same.
I did paleo for a bit and know a number of people who do it and follow paleo stuff to some extent, and they don't think meat is bad for you and actually tend to eat more meat than the US average, from what I observed.
A vegan diet, even WFPB, is really hard to maintain without legumes, which paleo puts on the verboten list, and grains are also helpful.
Both are anti dairy, granted.
SOME vegans and most paleo followers (although weirdly, not all, fewer than one should expect, really), tend to eat lots of whole foods and of course ensure that lots of those whole foods are vegetables. You know who else does this? A lot of people who aren't vegan or paleo, like me. So that's not a special thing about vegan or paleo diets, especially since not everyone who does those diets does it.
Another difference: SOME paleo types (not all, not the ones I know best) tend to be anti carb and pro sat fat, and therefore warn against fruit (or more than a little or "low sugar" fruits). To the extent that paleo overlaps with keto, some may even warn against root veg (sugary carrots) or too many vegetables.
Both can be done in a way that accentuates eating lots of produce, making plants the center of the plate, doing lots of home cooking, so on -- in fact, I think both should, ideally -- but again that does not separate them from many other ways of eating, so it seems weird to claim that they are "very similar."4 -
The majority of documentaries are very biased to whatever their agenda is. I hardly see any that show even evidence or benefits from whatever they are opposing.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »
They are not pretty much the same.
I did paleo for a bit and know a number of people who do it and follow paleo stuff to some extent, and they don't think meat is bad for you and actually tend to eat more meat than the US average, from what I observed.
A vegan diet, even WFPB, is really hard to maintain without legumes, which paleo puts on the verboten list, and grains are also helpful.
Both are anti dairy, granted.
SOME vegans and most paleo followers (although weirdly, not all, fewer than one should expect, really), tend to eat lots of whole foods and of course ensure that lots of those whole foods are vegetables. You know who else does this? A lot of people who aren't vegan or paleo, like me. So that's not a special thing about vegan or paleo diets, especially since not everyone who does those diets does it.
Another difference: SOME paleo types (not all, not the ones I know best) tend to be anti carb and pro sat fat, and therefore warn against fruit (or more than a little or "low sugar" fruits). To the extent that paleo overlaps with keto, some may even warn against root veg (sugary carrots) or too many vegetables.
Both can be done in a way that accentuates eating lots of produce, making plants the center of the plate, doing lots of home cooking, so on -- in fact, I think both should, ideally -- but again that does not separate them from many other ways of eating, so it seems weird to claim that they are "very similar."
and perhaps even weirder that the most extreme vegan diet, fruitarianism, is definitely paleo
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I understand why documentaries utilize fear to promote their agenda, but I think it sends a far more powerful message to minimize the hyperbole and simply let the facts lead you to your own decision.
Adding absurd comparatives does more harm to your attempt to persuade.
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