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What the Health?
Replies
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I am also vegan. I thought it was over the top.5
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Here are two pretty good take downs of all the problems with the film:
https://vox.com/science-and-health/2017/7/25/16018658/what-the-health-documentary-review-vegan-diet
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-the-health-a-movie-with-an-agenda/
Here is another critique, from the perspective of a science-based vegan.
https://www.vegan.com/posts/vegan-dietitian-review-what-the-health/4 -
I started watching it last night. I got rage pretty quickly, not sure I'll finish it.4
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Why do people have to go to such extremes when it comes to food!? Everybody has their strong dogmatic opinions, and the diet pendulum is constantly swinging either too far to the right or too far to the left! And whether it's vegan or keto, they're gunna have their "scientific evidence" to prove whatever they want to believe.
So here's my opinion!
BALANCE!!!!
Why do we have to demonize one specific macronutrient and slap the cancer word around like we know what we're talking about!? Whether it's carbs that cause cancer or fats, too much of just one thing is not healthy! It's unbalanced! Too much sugar-bad, too much fat-bad!
Our bodies were designed to consume all three - some carbs, some fats, and some protein! Vegetables AND meats! EVERYTHING IN MODERATION!! And any diet that makes you cut out an entire macronutrient, is unsustainable and unhealthy!
*The one thing that I do agree upon is food processing... its nearly impossible to cut out every type of food processing, but when at all possible, I do try to illiminate foreign ingredients and additives etc. So yes, I do use discretion when it comes to choosing food quality!*
Rant over! I love you all no matter what food orientation you choose!
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I'm going to see someone tomorrow who is newly vegan because he watched this movie. I'm going to read a few of these articles linked here, in case he gets preachy.4
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I haven't seen it but have heard enough to know I'm not going to bother.. Paleo and Vegan.. Two opposite ends of the scale, yet each will tell you it's the best (or only) option. Each to their own in terms of what people choose to put into their bodies for whatever reasons. I eat meat, but I source it locally and make the effort to know where it's raised and what it's been fed. So from a health point of view, I don't disagree with eating meat or animal products. I do however, disagree with mass produced, inhumanely farmed meat and animal products.
Interesting topic. I like it
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Processed and not nutrient dense are not the same thing.
"Vegan" has little to do with being anti processed (WFPB, on the other hand).
Paleo often promotes many foods that are processed also, like coconut oil. Half of the items at stores like Thrive (online) are promoting paleo approved products, Sisson sells a protein powder, there are these days lots of paleo premade meals and so on, just as there are vegan restaurants, etc. It's a lot easier to meet protein goals on a vegan diet (again, not WFPB, which likely preaches that protein is if anything too high) if you consume some processed foods like tofu, tempeh, so on (and of course there are canned beans, frozen veg).
I'm all in favor of eating nutrient dense diets and think most are -- this is hardly something unique about vegan and paleo or that anyone is saying is unimportant. The bizarre thing is to insist that being processed means that something is not nutrient dense. (Especially since often processing is about making foods available when they would not be -- in the "natural" state, like a real paleo world, it is really hard to get produce in certain seasons, and processing -- starting with basic canning and pickling and now all the options for frozen and things we would not consider "processing" but which is equally "unnatural" like bringing in foods from far away -- is why we have so many more options for fruits and vegetables in the winter/spring.
What makes paleo unique is the (incorrect) assertion that grains and legumes and dairy are all bad for us, not the (uncontroversial) claim that eating a nutrient dense diet is a good idea, or even that basing a diet on whole foods cooked at home is often a good way to go.
Similarly, what makes the claims pushed by the documentary in question unique (vs. just standard nutrition advice) is that consuming any animal products is seriously bad for your health (like smoking!).5 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Processed and not nutrient dense are not the same thing.
I want this on a T-shirt. Or a hat.7 -
My vegan agenda and I enjoyed the film. I do think though as with any food or health documentary you need to do your own
Nota bene: Steak/bacon/burger jokes? Are we still doing this? I think there are ways to share your opinions without demeaning or making fun of others beliefs.
Or..you can have a sense of humor, life is too short to take oneself so serious
I'd have a sense of humor if I didn't hear this multiple times a day, every day.
For some reason it's the only thing Omi people like to say/joke about vegans. I understand that you will not know my frustration as it is not something you have had to deal with, but take my word for it.
Yup ya right, my 48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery and learning the VALUE of laughing it off makes me unqualified to understand your frustration. Enjoy the day!
I'm not sure what my frustration with having my ethical choices mocked daily have to do with "48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery etc" just because you feel I shouldn't care about mocking jokes doesn't negate my feelings. Just as it wouldn't make your past issues any less important to you. Trust me, I joke and laugh off A LOT of things but eventually you need to stand up for yourself. Should a thin person just "laugh it off" every time someone tells them to eat a burger? No, because after a while it's hurtful. This forum is certainly not the first place I've had to defend my personal habits, because my 36 years of life experiences; domestic violence, dealing with ED, depression, anxiety, loss and disease has taught me the VALUE of sticking up for myself.
*********
Now back to the actual topic, like I said in my OP I do agree that the documentary was overly dramatic, and I also said that some things should be taken with a grain of salt because everyone needs to research their own choices. So, let me clarify; what I did enjoy about the film is the discussion of the link between big Ag, major corporations and our healthcare systems. Many of these major non-profits (Like Susan G. Komen/American Heart Association) are sponsored by huge companies that may not really reflect the mission of the brand.
Also, I would like to note that I am an ethical vegan, not a vegan for health reasons so perhaps my opinion is a little different than some who may try to bash studies and numbers into peoples heads. I don't feel that food should be demonized, that's how people develop unhealthy relationships with food. What I do think is that people need to be empowered and make choices for themselves, and if a (flawed) documentary lights a fire and helps them decide to make positive changes or sparks them to start to do some research, I consider that a win.21 -
My vegan agenda and I enjoyed the film. I do think though as with any food or health documentary you need to do your own
Nota bene: Steak/bacon/burger jokes? Are we still doing this? I think there are ways to share your opinions without demeaning or making fun of others beliefs.
Or..you can have a sense of humor, life is too short to take oneself so serious
I'd have a sense of humor if I didn't hear this multiple times a day, every day.
For some reason it's the only thing Omi people like to say/joke about vegans. I understand that you will not know my frustration as it is not something you have had to deal with, but take my word for it.
Yup ya right, my 48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery and learning the VALUE of laughing it off makes me unqualified to understand your frustration. Enjoy the day!
I'm not sure what my frustration with having my ethical choices mocked daily have to do with "48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery etc" just because you feel I shouldn't care about mocking jokes doesn't negate my feelings. Just as it wouldn't make your past issues any less important to you. Trust me, I joke and laugh off A LOT of things but eventually you need to stand up for yourself. Should a thin person just "laugh it off" every time someone tells them to eat a burger? No, because after a while it's hurtful. This forum is certainly not the first place I've had to defend my personal habits, because my 36 years of life experiences; domestic violence, dealing with ED, depression, anxiety, loss and disease has taught me the VALUE of sticking up for myself.
Considering she didn't mock your choices, but you railed against her joke regarding her own choices, you may wish to reconsider your line of thought.
20 -
My vegan agenda and I enjoyed the film. I do think though as with any food or health documentary you need to do your own
Nota bene: Steak/bacon/burger jokes? Are we still doing this? I think there are ways to share your opinions without demeaning or making fun of others beliefs.
Or..you can have a sense of humor, life is too short to take oneself so serious
I'd have a sense of humor if I didn't hear this multiple times a day, every day.
For some reason it's the only thing Omi people like to say/joke about vegans. I understand that you will not know my frustration as it is not something you have had to deal with, but take my word for it.
Yup ya right, my 48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery and learning the VALUE of laughing it off makes me unqualified to understand your frustration. Enjoy the day!
I'm not sure what my frustration with having my ethical choices mocked daily have to do with "48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery etc" just because you feel I shouldn't care about mocking jokes doesn't negate my feelings. Just as it wouldn't make your past issues any less important to you. Trust me, I joke and laugh off A LOT of things but eventually you need to stand up for yourself. Should a thin person just "laugh it off" every time someone tells them to eat a burger? No, because after a while it's hurtful. This forum is certainly not the first place I've had to defend my personal habits, because my 36 years of life experiences; domestic violence, dealing with ED, depression, anxiety, loss and disease has taught me the VALUE of sticking up for myself.
*********
Now back to the actual topic, like I said in my OP I do agree that the documentary was overly dramatic, and I also said that some things should be taken with a grain of salt because everyone needs to research their own choices. So, let me clarify; what I did enjoy about the film is the discussion of the link between big Ag, major corporations and our healthcare systems. Many of these major non-profits (Like Susan G. Komen/American Heart Association) are sponsored by huge companies that may not really reflect the mission of the brand.
Also, I would like to note that I am an ethical vegan, not a vegan for health reasons so perhaps my opinion is a little different than some who may try to bash studies and numbers into peoples heads. I don't feel that food should be demonized, that's how people develop unhealthy relationships with food. What I do think is that people need to be empowered and make choices for themselves, and if a (flawed) documentary lights a fire and helps them decide to make positive changes or sparks them to start to do some research, I consider that a win.
I rather see people empowered to make choices by themselves by exposure to scientifically accurate information and not scare mongering garbage. I rather people make informed decisions than make decisions based on fear and cherry picked data.21 -
My vegan agenda and I enjoyed the film. I do think though as with any food or health documentary you need to do your own
Nota bene: Steak/bacon/burger jokes? Are we still doing this? I think there are ways to share your opinions without demeaning or making fun of others beliefs.
Or..you can have a sense of humor, life is too short to take oneself so serious
I'd have a sense of humor if I didn't hear this multiple times a day, every day.
For some reason it's the only thing Omi people like to say/joke about vegans. I understand that you will not know my frustration as it is not something you have had to deal with, but take my word for it.
Yup ya right, my 48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery and learning the VALUE of laughing it off makes me unqualified to understand your frustration. Enjoy the day!
I'm not sure what my frustration with having my ethical choices mocked daily have to do with "48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery etc" just because you feel I shouldn't care about mocking jokes doesn't negate my feelings. Just as it wouldn't make your past issues any less important to you. Trust me, I joke and laugh off A LOT of things but eventually you need to stand up for yourself. Should a thin person just "laugh it off" every time someone tells them to eat a burger? No, because after a while it's hurtful. This forum is certainly not the first place I've had to defend my personal habits, because my 36 years of life experiences; domestic violence, dealing with ED, depression, anxiety, loss and disease has taught me the VALUE of sticking up for myself.
*********
Now back to the actual topic, like I said in my OP I do agree that the documentary was overly dramatic, and I also said that some things should be taken with a grain of salt because everyone needs to research their own choices. So, let me clarify; what I did enjoy about the film is the discussion of the link between big Ag, major corporations and our healthcare systems. Many of these major non-profits (Like Susan G. Komen/American Heart Association) are sponsored by huge companies that may not really reflect the mission of the brand.
Also, I would like to note that I am an ethical vegan, not a vegan for health reasons so perhaps my opinion is a little different than some who may try to bash studies and numbers into peoples heads. I don't feel that food should be demonized**, that's how people develop unhealthy relationships with food. What I do think is that people need to be empowered and make choices for themselves, and if a (flawed) documentary lights a fire and helps them decide to make positive changes or sparks them to start to do some research, I consider that a win.
Framing it as an allegedly ethical choice sets you up to feel superior to those who make other choices.
**animals are food. By framing your choice as ethical, you're demonizing food.7 -
Nota bene: Steak/bacon/burger jokes? Are we still doing this? I think there are ways to share your opinions without demeaning or making fun of others beliefs.Was,too busy grilling New York Strip to give it full attention
[/quote]
Or..you can have a sense of humor, life is too short to take oneself so serious [/quote]0 -
The documentary was very awakening for me. I believe most the things stated in the movie. And have made a lot of changes to my diet. Unfortunately, the rest of my family is not on board so I will still have to cook separate meals.21
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1: You rearranged the order in which those happened, ostensibly to make it look worse.
2: Even so, it still doesn't back up your claim.
eta: If I may be so bold, I think the issues you've apparently faced (per your first post on this particular page of the thread) may have caused you to see things that aren't actually there.5 -
I started watching it, made it to about 10-15 minutes before I was annoyed and turned it off. I'm based in Europe, so a lot of the US documentaries on food have that effect on me. I understand that we are raised with a different attitude towards food, but nowadays people can inform themselves on the internet, so watching these films that seem to only show one (quite small) part of what is possible, frustrate me.4
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singingflutelady wrote: »My vegan agenda and I enjoyed the film. I do think though as with any food or health documentary you need to do your own
Nota bene: Steak/bacon/burger jokes? Are we still doing this? I think there are ways to share your opinions without demeaning or making fun of others beliefs.
Or..you can have a sense of humor, life is too short to take oneself so serious
I'd have a sense of humor if I didn't hear this multiple times a day, every day.
For some reason it's the only thing Omi people like to say/joke about vegans. I understand that you will not know my frustration as it is not something you have had to deal with, but take my word for it.
Yup ya right, my 48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery and learning the VALUE of laughing it off makes me unqualified to understand your frustration. Enjoy the day!
I'm not sure what my frustration with having my ethical choices mocked daily have to do with "48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery etc" just because you feel I shouldn't care about mocking jokes doesn't negate my feelings. Just as it wouldn't make your past issues any less important to you. Trust me, I joke and laugh off A LOT of things but eventually you need to stand up for yourself. Should a thin person just "laugh it off" every time someone tells them to eat a burger? No, because after a while it's hurtful. This forum is certainly not the first place I've had to defend my personal habits, because my 36 years of life experiences; domestic violence, dealing with ED, depression, anxiety, loss and disease has taught me the VALUE of sticking up for myself.
*********
Now back to the actual topic, like I said in my OP I do agree that the documentary was overly dramatic, and I also said that some things should be taken with a grain of salt because everyone needs to research their own choices. So, let me clarify; what I did enjoy about the film is the discussion of the link between big Ag, major corporations and our healthcare systems. Many of these major non-profits (Like Susan G. Komen/American Heart Association) are sponsored by huge companies that may not really reflect the mission of the brand.
Also, I would like to note that I am an ethical vegan, not a vegan for health reasons so perhaps my opinion is a little different than some who may try to bash studies and numbers into peoples heads. I don't feel that food should be demonized, that's how people develop unhealthy relationships with food. What I do think is that people need to be empowered and make choices for themselves, and if a (flawed) documentary lights a fire and helps them decide to make positive changes or sparks them to start to do some research, I consider that a win.
I rather see people empowered to make choices by themselves by exposure to scientifically accurate information and not scare mongering garbage. I rather people make informed decisions than make decisions based on fear and cherry picked data.
Making a decision based on fear created by inaccurate information is the opposite of being empowered.18 -
janejellyroll wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »My vegan agenda and I enjoyed the film. I do think though as with any food or health documentary you need to do your own
Nota bene: Steak/bacon/burger jokes? Are we still doing this? I think there are ways to share your opinions without demeaning or making fun of others beliefs.
Or..you can have a sense of humor, life is too short to take oneself so serious
I'd have a sense of humor if I didn't hear this multiple times a day, every day.
For some reason it's the only thing Omi people like to say/joke about vegans. I understand that you will not know my frustration as it is not something you have had to deal with, but take my word for it.
Yup ya right, my 48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery and learning the VALUE of laughing it off makes me unqualified to understand your frustration. Enjoy the day!
I'm not sure what my frustration with having my ethical choices mocked daily have to do with "48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery etc" just because you feel I shouldn't care about mocking jokes doesn't negate my feelings. Just as it wouldn't make your past issues any less important to you. Trust me, I joke and laugh off A LOT of things but eventually you need to stand up for yourself. Should a thin person just "laugh it off" every time someone tells them to eat a burger? No, because after a while it's hurtful. This forum is certainly not the first place I've had to defend my personal habits, because my 36 years of life experiences; domestic violence, dealing with ED, depression, anxiety, loss and disease has taught me the VALUE of sticking up for myself.
*********
Now back to the actual topic, like I said in my OP I do agree that the documentary was overly dramatic, and I also said that some things should be taken with a grain of salt because everyone needs to research their own choices. So, let me clarify; what I did enjoy about the film is the discussion of the link between big Ag, major corporations and our healthcare systems. Many of these major non-profits (Like Susan G. Komen/American Heart Association) are sponsored by huge companies that may not really reflect the mission of the brand.
Also, I would like to note that I am an ethical vegan, not a vegan for health reasons so perhaps my opinion is a little different than some who may try to bash studies and numbers into peoples heads. I don't feel that food should be demonized, that's how people develop unhealthy relationships with food. What I do think is that people need to be empowered and make choices for themselves, and if a (flawed) documentary lights a fire and helps them decide to make positive changes or sparks them to start to do some research, I consider that a win.
I rather see people empowered to make choices by themselves by exposure to scientifically accurate information and not scare mongering garbage. I rather people make informed decisions than make decisions based on fear and cherry picked data.
Making a decision based on fear created by inaccurate information is the opposite of being empowered.
That's what I think too. Just used that word since the poster who I was responding to used it.0 -
stanmann571 wrote: »My vegan agenda and I enjoyed the film. I do think though as with any food or health documentary you need to do your own
Nota bene: Steak/bacon/burger jokes? Are we still doing this? I think there are ways to share your opinions without demeaning or making fun of others beliefs.
Or..you can have a sense of humor, life is too short to take oneself so serious
I'd have a sense of humor if I didn't hear this multiple times a day, every day.
For some reason it's the only thing Omi people like to say/joke about vegans. I understand that you will not know my frustration as it is not something you have had to deal with, but take my word for it.
Yup ya right, my 48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery and learning the VALUE of laughing it off makes me unqualified to understand your frustration. Enjoy the day!
I'm not sure what my frustration with having my ethical choices mocked daily have to do with "48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery etc" just because you feel I shouldn't care about mocking jokes doesn't negate my feelings. Just as it wouldn't make your past issues any less important to you. Trust me, I joke and laugh off A LOT of things but eventually you need to stand up for yourself. Should a thin person just "laugh it off" every time someone tells them to eat a burger? No, because after a while it's hurtful. This forum is certainly not the first place I've had to defend my personal habits, because my 36 years of life experiences; domestic violence, dealing with ED, depression, anxiety, loss and disease has taught me the VALUE of sticking up for myself.
*********
Now back to the actual topic, like I said in my OP I do agree that the documentary was overly dramatic, and I also said that some things should be taken with a grain of salt because everyone needs to research their own choices. So, let me clarify; what I did enjoy about the film is the discussion of the link between big Ag, major corporations and our healthcare systems. Many of these major non-profits (Like Susan G. Komen/American Heart Association) are sponsored by huge companies that may not really reflect the mission of the brand.
Also, I would like to note that I am an ethical vegan, not a vegan for health reasons so perhaps my opinion is a little different than some who may try to bash studies and numbers into peoples heads. I don't feel that food should be demonized**, that's how people develop unhealthy relationships with food. What I do think is that people need to be empowered and make choices for themselves, and if a (flawed) documentary lights a fire and helps them decide to make positive changes or sparks them to start to do some research, I consider that a win.
Framing it as an allegedly ethical choice sets you up to feel superior to those who make other choices.
**animals are food. By framing your choice as ethical, you're demonizing food.
Don't we all make decisions based on our personal beliefs of what is most ethical in a given situation? Yes, some people use that as a basis to feel superior, but others don't.
Let's say someone chooses to abstain from sex in certain circumstances or feels an obligation to share a portion of their money with the less fortunate. Those are choices based on ethics, yet many people do these things without it damaging the way they see others.
I would argue that is is possible to live in a way that is consistent with one's ethics without feeling superior.6
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