Paleo vs Plant based vs low calorie?

JAT74
JAT74 Posts: 1,081 Member
edited July 2017 in Health and Weight Loss
I watched a documentary a couple of days ago about the fact that we as humans generally eat too much meat (including chicken) and that this, along with too much dairy, is causing most major diseases such as Cancer, Diabetes, Heart disease etc. mostly due to what's added to the meat during the production process. Processed meats are the worst, but other meats aren't that far behind, and fish has other issues as it contains mercury and other nasties. Dairy was deemed as unfit for human consumption too and Eggs were mentioned as being especially bad.

In place of this, they recommended eating a mostly plant based diet along with legumes, grains etc. but not to cut out sugar from the diet and to use plant based fats rather than animal fat.

I could see where the presenter was coming from and some of what they were saying was based on studies but it's left me more confused than ever about what I should and shouldn't be eating for my health and also for weight loss.

For many many years I've believed that my body reacts badly to carbohydrates and that it holds onto fat when I eat a high carb/high sugar diet. I generally eat a lot of meat, chicken and seafood (not so much fish as I'm not a big fan), though I do try and balance this by eating fruit and vegetables. I have dairy too, though not a lot and mainly in the form of yoghurt along with a little milk and cheese (not every day).

I usually try to eat reasonably low carb most of the time (under 100g per day) but I still find it extremely hard to lose weight and it's getting even more difficult the older I get (I'm now almost 43). I generally eat around 900-1100 calories most days, with more at weekends and I exercise daily (either walking, cardio on gym machines and I do weight training 3 x a week). My recent 'natural' weight is between 140 and 152lbs and I am trying to get to approx 119lbs. Before counting calories and reducing to my current level, I was eating in the region of 1200-1600 calories most days. Any more than that and I start to gain weight rapidly. I rarely drink alcohol.

Taking on board what was said in the documentary about a plant based diet, I want to try and cut down on meats so that I only eat processed meat once a week (currently about 3-4 times a week in small quantities) as I know this is bad, other meats a couple of times a week (currently most days) because I realise that the meats we eat are pumped full of chemicals and fish 1-2 days a week too (currently 0-1 day a week) if I can get it from a clean source. I would like to increase my vegetable intake too (I eat plenty of fruit) because I find that I'm not able to eat more than around 10g of fibre most days, even though most of my meals contain a vegetable of some sort. My concern here is that I can't get organic where I live and the food we can buy in supermarkets is covered in pesticides.

I'm a bit concerned that by reducing meats I will end up not getting enough protein (something which the documentary disputes) and also that by increasing vegetable, legume and grain intake I will be adding more calories and that these foods are high in carbs.

I also have doubts about cutting out dairy and eggs, as I know high fat dairy isn't great but I usually only have this in small quantities (except yogurt).

What are other people's thoughts on this and how will it affect my weight loss? At the moment my weight loss is very very slow anyway, so anything which may help (such as more fibre?) I would welcome. I will continue counting calories and some people say that not all calories are the same, so don't know if it matters where I get my calories from?

It also occurs to me that when I have been much lighter, it's been when I've either eaten more green vegetables and other sweet vegetables like carrots, more fruit in place of processed sugars, homemade yogurt, cut out starchy carbs, used things like honey for baking with almond/coconut flour and when I've only eaten lean meat/fish (I followed the SCD diet for 5 months to try and help cure my partner's Colitis). I managed to lose about 21lbs in that period of time (or less) without even trying, and thinking back to that time a couple of years ago I'm not too sure why.

I'm leaning towards trying to go Paleo as it's not quite as strict as SCD, contains all natural foods (including eggs and lean meats/fish though I can't buy 'grass fed' where I live) but it also cuts out dairy and grains. It ticks the boxes in terms of cutting out processed meats which is great, but it still allows a lot of foods that a plant based diet wouldn't, and cuts out grains which plant based says you should eat!

Ultimately I want to do the best thing for my health/future health, but desperately need to get the weight off too as I carry an unhealthy level of body fat (currently around 34%) but don't know what to do! I want to get my body back to top condition but don't want to eleminate foods unnecessarily and don't really know what is/isn't bad for me or us as a species because of so much conflicting advice. Energy levels are another consideration.

Doesn't anyone have any thoughts/advice on this? The people around me all eat a 'normal' diet ie. whatever they want, when they want but nobody I know is trying to be healthy. I know a couple who live nearby and they've just lost around 20lbs each, but only be eating a vlcd of approx 500-800 calories every day for the last 7 months. They live primarily on protein shakes and personally I don't want to resort to that!
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Replies

  • accidentalpancake
    accidentalpancake Posts: 484 Member
    The only utility those documentaries have, if you're not willing to thoroughly research every claim, is that they can work as a catalyst to get you to think about your food choices. Rather than eliminate food categories that don't cause you any harm, you should be more mindful about what you eat (content and amount) and where it comes from. That alone will benefit you.

    As an example, when I was hovering around 280lbs six years ago (and binge-watching the entire Netflix catalog while waiting for my first day at a new job), I watched "Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead", which somehow became a huge driver for me to start eating healthier and losing weight. I didn't start juicing, or worse yet, go on some ridiculous "juice fast", but I did become more mindful. I've lost, and kept off, over 50lbs since then.
  • laurenebargar
    laurenebargar Posts: 3,081 Member
    My husband too saw this documentary and originally wanted to cut everything out of our diets, processed foods, meat etc. I only eat meat maybe once every two weeks (was a veggie for 5 years) and have been toying with the idea of going back there. We dont really eat many processed foods as it is (I personally dont care either way, we just tend to prefer to make tomato sauce rather than buy it, cook everything from scratch ETC) So, we just started making less meals with meat. We've been eating meat rarely, I think its been about 2 weeks since i've had any and maybe a week for him? You can start slow if you want, we aren't purposely saying we will never eat meat again but limiting it and trying out new recipes is fun. I know I could live this way forever, my husband on the other hand has always enjoyed meat, so we will see. We made "burgers" last night with mushrooms and he said he didnt miss the meat at all. I think that if we went through out cupboards and swore off meat completely we would be miserable, making small changes to your diet is fine, and finding a place where you are comfortable is going to make it stick long term.
  • JAT74
    JAT74 Posts: 1,081 Member
    Yes, I certainly agree with that. I also watched that documentary and it had a similar reaction.

    The frustrating thing for me I think is that when I was in my 20s I lived in a student environment for several years and didn't even know what a calorie was. I ate a lot of takeaway food and always ate dessert, plus I drank alcohol daily. At that time (along with my friends/flatmates) I gained a ton of weight but I didn't care. In my teens I was always pretty small because I ate a really healthy diet most of the time, with occasional treats. I went from that to living on my own and being in control of my own food etc. and being someone who's always loved food it quickly got out of hand. I wouldn't say I was eating loads but I was definitely eating too much.

    By the time I decided to do something about it I was around 175-180lbs which for me was huge (considering my weight in my teens was about 120lbs).

    At first it was easy to lose the weight just by cutting down on alcohol, cooking fresh meals, eating smaller portions etc. and I easily reached 121lbs and kept it off for 2-3 years without even trying. After that (at which point I was into my 30s) it became a struggle to keep the weight down as eating low carb and avoiding alcohol etc. became too difficult to sustain all the time.

    Since then my weight has fluctuated between about 126lbs and 150lbs! Ok, not as much as I was at my heaviest but I know it's not healthy as my body fat is sky high when I gain weight and want to get it down to a healthier level. I also become really introverted when I'm heavier and don't enjoy being outdoors unless it's winter etc.

    One way or another I need to find a way to get to a lower weight where I feel comfortable and know I'm healthy and stay there but it's easier said than done. Having seen various people around me with health issues caused by an unhealthy diet/lifestyle, this also plays on my mind and if very important to me.

    I know there's no magic cure for weight issues, but it would be great if I could find a way to stay at a healthier size/weight for the rest o fmy life.

  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    JAT74 wrote: »
    janejellyroll and laurenebargar I know I could cut out meat the majority of the time if I ate dairy and based meals on more egg/cheesey foods instead of meat but I don't know if they're necessarily healthier.

    I don't eat many processed foods really, I'm in Spain and most people here eat fresh fruit/vegetables and cook from scratch anyway. it's generally things like cured ham, bacon/other pork products that are processed, or packaged yogurts etc. though I prefer to eat natural yogurt and add my own sweetner like honey or pure maple syrup. Other than that if I cook with meat/fish I'll use the natural/unprocessed type or canned tuna etc.

    I definitely want to introduce more fish into my diet but need to be aware of mercury. Salt and preservatives added to meat is also not ideal, but I know it would be hard for any of us to eat completely naturally unless we could grow our own vegetables and raise our own livestock!

    I can take or leave processed snacks most of the time and like things like nuts in place of chips/crisps and fruit in place of baked goods etc. but my main issue is sometimes I get hungry and find that 900 calories doesn't cut it! Maybe I should try filling up on low calorie foods like vegetables a bit more. It's just a case of making substitutes so I don't feel deprived. It can be difficult to think that way when you're not seeing the restults you want though. At the start of the year I was 151lbs and now I'm around 145 so not much lost in all this time.


    Many people find that filling up with lower calorie vegetables is a great way to feel satisfied while meeting their calorie goals. I'm one of them.
  • laurenebargar
    laurenebargar Posts: 3,081 Member
    JAT74 wrote: »
    janejellyroll and laurenebargar I know I could cut out meat the majority of the time if I ate dairy and based meals on more egg/cheesey foods instead of meat but I don't know if they're necessarily healthier.

    I don't eat many processed foods really, I'm in Spain and most people here eat fresh fruit/vegetables and cook from scratch anyway. it's generally things like cured ham, bacon/other pork products that are processed, or packaged yogurts etc. though I prefer to eat natural yogurt and add my own sweetner like honey or pure maple syrup. Other than that if I cook with meat/fish I'll use the natural/unprocessed type or canned tuna etc.

    I definitely want to introduce more fish into my diet but need to be aware of mercury. Salt and preservatives added to meat is also not ideal, but I know it would be hard for any of us to eat completely naturally unless we could grow our own vegetables and raise our own livestock!

    I can take or leave processed snacks most of the time and like things like nuts in place of chips/crisps and fruit in place of baked goods etc. but my main issue is sometimes I get hungry and find that 900 calories doesn't cut it! Maybe I should try filling up on low calorie foods like vegetables a bit more. It's just a case of making substitutes so I don't feel deprived. It can be difficult to think that way when you're not seeing the restults you want though. At the start of the year I was 151lbs and now I'm around 145 so not much lost in all this time.


    Just to give you a few ideas of the past few nights of dinners in my house that were meatless.
    Healthy Pesto Pasta Bake (pesto made of kale spinach basil lemon juice and pine nuts) on whole wheat noodles and less than .5 cup of cheese
    Mushroom Burgers, (mushrooms on a roll with grilled zucchini grilled bell pepper and mustard)

    Neither are covered with cheese or eggs.

    I also would like to add that after my husband did some research, he doesnt agree with What the Health but does think that having less meat can be a good thing, we are taking it one day at a time and basing what we eat off what we feel.
  • JAT74
    JAT74 Posts: 1,081 Member
    Maxematics, I do use a food scale to weigh my food and therefore know how much I'm eating.

    OliveGirl128 that's really interesting, I haven't read the other threads but will have a look. I'll also look into the other diet you've recommended, though I keep an eye on my food groups already via mfp so think my diet is pretty fairly balanced. The reason I stick to approx 900 calories most days is I start gaining if I eat over 1000 on a daily basis. I've discovered this is due to trial and error, so if I have any chance of losing weight I have to aim for under 1000. I've been to see doctors about this but they've not been able to find a medical reason why this is the case for me. My mum has exactly the same issue and always has done.

    It's funny you mention Blue Zones, I wasn't aware of that term, but I was looking at this exact topic yesterday to try and work out what the longest living/healthiest nations eat primarily! In my experience of people who've suffered health issues which have lead them to have to change their diets, I know people who have had to cut out fat (due to problems with gall bladder) and eat mainly plain food without added sauces or fats. They mainly ate grains and lean meat/fish but lost loads of weight by doing so. They were able to eat fruit and vegetables too, but maybe the lack of fat in the diet lead to the extreme weight loss or perhaps it was the inability to eat a lot of those types of foods. On the SCD diet which doesn't allow grains, starchy carbs or dairy except special yoghurt both myself and my partner lost a lot of weight. We were eating plenty and didn't watch our fat intake (though we only ate olive oil and coconut oil).

    The mediterranean diet is very healthy anyway, though I find a lot of bread is eaten in addition to a lot of cheese and high fat desserts. Portion sizes are also quite large and alcohol is consumed daily by most people in Spain. They do seem to consume more protein and fruit/vegetables/eggs/cheese than carbs though, so maybe that's why obesity isn't a very big problem yet and they tend to eat a fairly balanced diet.
  • JAT74
    JAT74 Posts: 1,081 Member
    Lauren, your meals sound delicious. I tend to eat veggie once or twice a week and don't always include cheese or eggs, but that's normally just for one meal. I need to work towards totally meatless days, if I could get to 2 days meatless, 1 fish only and the rest I could have seafood or meat that would be a good start I think.
  • OliveGirl128
    OliveGirl128 Posts: 801 Member
    edited July 2017
    JAT74 wrote: »
    Maxematics, I do use a food scale to weigh my food and therefore know how much I'm eating.

    OliveGirl128 that's really interesting, I haven't read the other threads but will have a look. I'll also look into the other diet you've recommended, though I keep an eye on my food groups already via mfp so think my diet is pretty fairly balanced. The reason I stick to approx 900 calories most days is I start gaining if I eat over 1000 on a daily basis. I've discovered this is due to trial and error, so if I have any chance of losing weight I have to aim for under 1000. I've been to see doctors about this but they've not been able to find a medical reason why this is the case for me. My mum has exactly the same issue and always has done.

    It's funny you mention Blue Zones, I wasn't aware of that term, but I was looking at this exact topic yesterday to try and work out what the longest living/healthiest nations eat primarily! In my experience of people who've suffered health issues which have lead them to have to change their diets, I know people who have had to cut out fat (due to problems with gall bladder) and eat mainly plain food without added sauces or fats. They mainly ate grains and lean meat/fish but lost loads of weight by doing so. They were able to eat fruit and vegetables too, but maybe the lack of fat in the diet lead to the extreme weight loss or perhaps it was the inability to eat a lot of those types of foods. On the SCD diet which doesn't allow grains, starchy carbs or dairy except special yoghurt both myself and my partner lost a lot of weight. We were eating plenty and didn't watch our fat intake (though we only ate olive oil and coconut oil).

    The mediterranean diet is very healthy anyway, though I find a lot of bread is eaten in addition to a lot of cheese and high fat desserts. Portion sizes are also quite large and alcohol is consumed daily by most people in Spain. They do seem to consume more protein and fruit/vegetables/eggs/cheese than carbs though, so maybe that's why obesity isn't a very big problem yet and they tend to eat a fairly balanced diet.

    The Blue Zones are fascinating to me :) Here's a great article, if you haven't already read it
    http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/04/11/398325030/eating-to-break-100-longevity-diet-tips-from-the-blue-zones

    I have to amend what I posted above, there is one vegetarian group that makes the list, (the SDA group in Loma Linda, CA). However, notice that within that group there's a sub-group that still eats fish several times a week and they have even better outcomes than their strict vegetarian counterparts.

    I've been successfully maintaining a 50lb weight loss for 4 years now eating whatever I wanted, just within my calorie parameters, but earlier this year I became very interested in how food may affect long term health. So I really do get where you're coming from. I started with the Blue Zones, then read about the big meta study that recently came out, about quantity of veg/fruit, and how that may play a large role in disease prevention http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_22-2-2017-16-38-0

    and from there I decided to transition to a whole foods, plant based diet, following Dr. Fuhrman's protocol (Nutritarian woe). I eliminated all meat, eggs and most dairy from my diet and focused on really upping my veg/fruit intake, beans (oh my gosh so many beans lol), whole grains etc etc. After a while though I began feeling 'off'. I felt sluggish and run down, was always bloated and I started struggling to maintain my weight due to hunger. Did some spot checking with my macros and realized I was really low fat/protein and I was becoming a bit of a mess. Also during this time I had blood work done and my cholesterol numbers had actually gotten worse! So frustrating, because I thought I was doing everything 'right' and eating the healthiest way possible.

    From there I hit a bit of a rough patch where I struggled to get my head back in the right place. Then I heard about the DASH diet and saw that it's a more balanced approach to what I was attempting to do. It still puts a lot of emphasis on plant foods, but includes small amounts of meat and dairy. It's also the plan my husband's doctor has been pushing for him to start, because of his health issues. I started following it a few days ago and the difference in how I feel is remarkable. I still eat a lot of veggies and fruit, whole grains and yes-beans :) But, I now have a few ounces of meat and dairy every week and I feel so much better.
  • laurenebargar
    laurenebargar Posts: 3,081 Member
    JAT74 wrote: »
    Lauren, your meals sound delicious. I tend to eat veggie once or twice a week and don't always include cheese or eggs, but that's normally just for one meal. I need to work towards totally meatless days, if I could get to 2 days meatless, 1 fish only and the rest I could have seafood or meat that would be a good start I think.

    I think that would be a great start too! No need to do an entire overhaul on your diet, but if you want to change things up and try one or two meatless meals a week I think it can be a great thing! We originally started to save money on our grocery bill when there was only one of us working, the meatless meal was always cheaper!
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    laurenebargar wrote: »
    JAT74 wrote: »
    Lauren, your meals sound delicious. I tend to eat veggie once or twice a week and don't always include cheese or eggs, but that's normally just for one meal. I need to work towards totally meatless days, if I could get to 2 days meatless, 1 fish only and the rest I could have seafood or meat that would be a good start I think.

    I think that would be a great start too! No need to do an entire overhaul on your diet, but if you want to change things up and try one or two meatless meals a week I think it can be a great thing! We originally started to save money on our grocery bill when there was only one of us working, the meatless meal was always cheaper!

    This is such a great point. If people are interested in any dietary change -- eating more vegetables, eating less processed meat, reducing dairy, whatever -- they can make these changes without having to completely eliminate anything, place a label on how they eat, or decide it's what they have to do for the rest of their lives. They can just pick some meals, start experimenting, and see how they like it.
  • Sabine_Stroehm
    Sabine_Stroehm Posts: 19,263 Member
    edited July 2017
    OliveGirl128 wrote: »
    That documentary has been discussed quite a bit already here, with numerous other threads going. It was made by extreme animal rights activists and the information is purposely distorted, to push an agenda.

    Op-if you want a more balanced approach the DASH diet is a fantastic outline for a healthy diet- https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/dash/followdash
    Or look into the Blue Zones, and how the longest living groups of people eat. You'll quickly see that they still include animal products into their diets, in small amounts.

    There are no reputable studies/research that shows that a vegan woe is any healthier than a diet that includes animal products. Even hard core plant based advocates like Dr. Fuhrman admit to this. Focus on a diet that helps you achieve your calorie goals, and then gives you a good balances of macros and micros.

    The DASH diets (there are several) and the original (not the new) south beach diet all make reasonable blueprints for building a healthy diet. Though I'd personally eat fewer grains than any of them suggest.
    For me: any diet that's based around delicious nutrient dense foods, and that is easy to adhere to, is a good one.
  • JAT74
    JAT74 Posts: 1,081 Member
    SusieSunshine, I've been thinking about changing my diet for a while now, mostly due to seeing a lot of people die of horrible diseases in the last few years. I live in an area where there are a lot of British expats in Spain and many of my British neighbours have died of diet or smoking related diseases. In the last 4-5 years, around 10 of my neighbours have died prematurely and they, sometimes after long illnesses and also suddely. The common link was that all of them drank alcohol daily, overate, didn't pay much if any attention to diet or exercise and mostly all smoked. It has been upsetting to see when I've known these people personally for a long time, but that, added to my own father who died over 10 years ago from emphysema (due to being a heavy smoker) has made me cut down on drinking so now I drink a lot less often than I used to. I've never been a smoker either because I saw how it affected my dad but seeing the poor diet of many British expats too (carb heavy meals, lots of high fat/high calorie/high sugar foods etc. has really put me off.
  • JAT74
    JAT74 Posts: 1,081 Member
    OliveGirl, I think the principles of the DASH diet are excellent, though in practice I don't think I could follow a plan like that, so would prefer to use it more as a guide to they way I should aim to try and eat most of the time. I don't feel like I want to cut out any particular food groups, but conflicting advice makes it hard to think it's ok to eat a bit of anything and everything. That and my waistline!! I'm definitely going to read more on the Blue Zone and disease prevention though, I know nothing is guaranteed but I do think we should try and do the best we can for our health.

    Meatless days can't be so bad so I'm definitely going to aim for that, the money saving aspect is definitely another plus. When I read about diets like Paleo, I always think about the fact that in the past it wasn't always possible to eat meat or fish every day, so meatless days were probably a normal part of life for our ancestors.

    I just wish I could crack the weight loss aspect. I know that if I was more active throughout the day I probably wouldn't have such an issue but as that's not going to change any time soon I'll need to find a way to lose and manage my weight using diet alone.

  • JAT74
    JAT74 Posts: 1,081 Member
    Sabine_Stroehm, I would probably agree with you. I have an old copy of the South Beach diet somewhere so will try and dig it out. I find I get pretty bloated if I eat a lot of grains anyway.
  • JAT74
    JAT74 Posts: 1,081 Member
    I agree with you to an extent Kimny, my grandfather on my mum's side was 94 when he died and ate good home cooked food (but not so much processed) and also drank alcohol daily along with his cigar! He had good genes I guess, but wasn't overweight and ate in moderation, never overate etc.

    My grandma on my dad's side lived in Jamaica and mainly ate fresh fruit, vegetables, rice, beans and very rarely ate anything processed. She used to bake her own desserts and cooked with a lot of spices, swore by rum used internally or externally to cure anything and drank alcohol in moderation most days. She lived to almost 104!

    Looking at articles about Blue Zone countries it does appear that eating a natural/non-processed diet primarily is the answer, and small quantities of alcohol doesn't do too much harm. I think portion sizes play a large part in health, and my problem has never (up to this point) that I've been unhealthy as such, but carrying such a high level of body fat does worry me. My mum is now in her 70s and suffers from high blood pressure linked to Kidney disease. I've never had any symptoms myself but my blood pressure isn't on the low side unless my weight goes down. The same for my heart rate. When I am at a healthier weight, my resting heart rate is much lower and I notice the same if I go more than a week without alcohol. My resting heart rate can vary by 10-20 points.

    What shocked me so much about the British expats here is that those who have died young (in their 50s or early 60s on the whole) have been those people who were 'visibly' unhealthy looking ie. overweight, smokers, big drinkers, ate an unbalanced diet etc. The general reluctance to exercise probably also played a large part.
  • kimny72
    kimny72 Posts: 16,011 Member
    @jat74 I'll be honest - and this is just my layman's opinion - but I don't think "processed" is the problem. There are plenty of processed foods with good nutrition in them. There are other processed foods that are calorie dense but have very little nutrition. My diet is probably 50% whole foods and 50% processed. I get plenty of fiber and protein and my bloodwork and vitals are all excellent.

    So I would kind of agree with you, just being picky in terms :lol:. I think eating a nutritious diet and staying active and social are the common threads in the Blue Zones.

    Best of luck, I hope you find the right path for you!

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