Proccessed Foods
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lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
I am curious: you say "what I consider processed food for me in my life." But isn't processed just processed? I suspect that in your head processed = bad, or unhealthy, so you are translating the question "what do I think of as processed" into "what do I think of as unhealthy." Is that right?
I'm kind of the opposite. I don't equate "processed" with unhealthy. Even though I don't really eat ultra processed foods, I don't think they are invariably unhealthy (some don't have good nutrition profiles, but some do). So if someone asked me what I think of when I think of processed foods, I specifically will think of the particular foods in that category that I eat: cottage cheese, greek yogurt, canned beans, dried pasta, etc. I don't really think of the foods I don't eat, because I don't think of them. I don't specifically avoid them, I just don't eat that way.
I can imagine finding some ultra processed foods to be convenient, though -- some find it useful to have a frozen meal on hand for a quick dinner or rely on a quick to prepare rice and beans option (I used to live on those, actually, although I would add vegetables and sometimes goat or feta cheese) or to bring those for lunches. I don't think there's something wrong with that, or that the fact they are processed adds much to the analysis (and I do fear it can become a snob thing or a way to pit the perfect against the good and make people feel bad when they are actually doing really well at eating a good diet overall).
I understand avoiding some specific ingredients (I do, although my reasons might be different), but the particular ingredients in different processed or ultra processed foods vary a lot.
I suppose in my head I do consider SOME procesed food to be bad. I say 'some' because some are not full of preservatives etc (cottage cheese, yogurt, oats, beans, cheese,to name a few).
I realize that just about everything bought in a grocery store is processed in some way. If it has a bacode, it's pretty much processed...and not everything with barcode is unhealthy. I generally like to stick to the perimeter of the store to avoid much of the "ultra processed" foods in the aisles. So to use the term you mentioned, I prefer to avoid/limit 'ultra processed food.'
Do I eat what I consider to be 'bad' ultra processed foods? Yes I do, but I do try to limit my quantity especially when my goal is to eat healthier. I'm not above going to Trader Joe's when I don't want to cook and buying a frozen dinner or cooking a frozen pizza etc....I just don't make it a frequent or daily habit.
I love to cook and cook 90% of my own meals, but I'm not above buying canned tomatoes (even though I know the can lining has chemicals) or pasta sauce, pasta, beans etc. When shopping Im always reading labels trying to find the healthiest option/ingredients.
It makes sense now when you say you don't think of foods in a category that you don't eat...only foods you do eat which fall into that category. I honestly never thought of it that way.
Please correct me if I'm wrong...Since i am new to the term, I think the term I have been describing would be "ultra processed foods" since these are the ones with the food additives, chemicals, colorings and preservatives...correct?
Thanks again for taking the time to discuss this with me instead of just telling me I'm wrong and uninformed on the subject. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion and whatever works for you is what you should go with.
On ultra processed foods, I find the term a bit confusing in what it is supposed to convey, but this may help both of us (from http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0092752, about the Brazilian guidelines and reasons for them):In recent years a classification of foodstuffs based on the extent, nature and purpose of food processing has been developed, and results based on the classification have been published. This divides foodstuffs into three groups. These are foods that are either fresh or minimally processed; processed culinary ingredients; and ready-to-consume food products, either processed or ultra-processed. Processed products are whole foods preserved with salt, sugar or oil or by other methods such as smoking or curing. Ultra-processed products are essentially industrial formulations mostly or entirely made from industrial ingredients, typically containing little or no whole foods.
Studies in different countries show that ready-to-consume food products (processed or ultra-processed) taken together as a group, when compared with foods combined with processed culinary ingredients as made into dishes and meals, on average are more energy-dense, are higher in total fat, saturated fats, sugars and salt, and are lower in protein and dietary fiber. Ultra-processed products in particular typically have properties that are conductive to overconsumption: they are often hyper-palatable and sold in large portion sizes; are durable and easy to transport and therefore liable to be consumed as snacks at any time and in almost any place; and are often marketed intensively and persuasively.
There is therefore reason to believe that high consumption of ready-to-consume food products in general, is a cause of weight gain, obesity and associated disorders and diseases....
My bolding, because I want to make a point here. Like I said, I don't really eat these foods at all, as it's just not how I've ever eaten. But how they stack up on calories and added fat and sodium and sugar and the like varies a lot. Way back I gave an example of an Amy's frozen meal and I think that would be considered ultra processed, but it's really not bad nutritionally (or ingredient wise) and wouldn't be the same as some other such meals (and could stack up well against some home cooked meals).
My personal view is the reason eating lots of ultra processed foods correlates with gaining weight is NOT that they have specific ingredients that cause that, but that they are really easy to overeat (high cal, easy availability -- it's way more work to make a pie vs. buying a frozen one, even if the homemade one is no better calorie wise and tastes better), and often are marketed as snack foods (eat them in addition to regular meals).
SOME preservatives (as preservatives include just salt) are in even minimally processed foods, but to finally answer your question, yes, I think what you mean are ultra processed foods.
I do avoid specific ingredients, as I said, one such being palm oil, since I think it's environmentally problematic, any transfats/partially hydrogenated oils (although they are not that common), largely industrial seed oils, I eat soy but generally prefer not to have it added to my food in other ways, same with corn, I think using sugar vs. HFCS usually is a good sign of a sweet that is going to taste better anyway, so on. For me most of this is not health related (I don't eat any of this enough to be too concerned about that, and I do generally think most additives are probably fine -- many of them are just vitamin supplements even -- I just prefer whole foods based meals more often, although I am definitely not 100% on any of this).
I wonder to some extent if these discussions end up more contentious than they should be just because people use words differently. To me (a literalist, as noted above, and an all or nothing type), saying "I avoid eating whatever" means I NEVER eat it, and saying that sort of thing is a good way to make myself feel bad or like I failed if I do. When I cut out added sugar for a month, I obsessively read labels and avoided de minimis amounts, even though logically that made no sense to me, because that was what I was doing, darn it!
To others, I get the sense that "I avoid whatever" means they try not to make it a significant part of their diet, but if they end up having it, eh, no biggie. So perhaps that's why some people tend to read "I think X is fine in moderation" or "I don't avoid it, but consume it in the context of a healthful diet" to mean "I eat that most days!" ;-)
Does that make any sense?
Anyway, I base my diet on whole foods, and read labels and generally if I don't know what something is (which is rare with the labels I read), I look it up and decide it I am interested in consuming it.
This makes a lot of sense. I'm beginning to realize that we agree on more than I thought, just have different ways of expressing it.
When I say I like to avoid a certain type of food, I generally mean I try to not eat it and will choose a different option if available, but do eat it on occasion (hfcs...I won't buy products with it in them, but I'll occasionally have a treat at work that I'm sure has it in there.) There are certain things I just won't eat...artificial sweeteners for example. I know there is a huge debate on these, but it I'm from the side that believes they are harmful and would rather have real sugar. No real changing my mind on this one.
The Brazilian guidelines you quoted pretty much sum up what I follow. I'm not 100% one way or another...there are usually exceptions to the food guidelines I follow, but generally speaking I try to avoid ultra processed when possible (not always).5 -
I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p14 -
VintageFeline wrote: »I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p1
You can go ahead and consume all the artificial sweeteners you want...doesn't matter to me one bit. Go for it and enjoy them. I'm not judging and I'm not saying you shouldn't drink them. I'm simply stating that I'm not going to consume them.
My opinion is not going to change. I've read enough studies against them and spoken to people who have had issues with them that I choose to not to partake. Not really sure why this is such a big deal for everyone?
When people say they are going to drink diet soda I don't tell them it's unsafe. I just ignore it and let them make their own decisions.
Yes there are studies that say they are safe...there are just as many that say they aren't safe...it all depends on what side of the coin you're looking to prove.6 -
VintageFeline wrote: »I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p1
You can go ahead and consume all the artificial sweeteners you want...doesn't matter to me one bit. Go for it and enjoy them. I'm not judging and I'm not saying you shouldn't drink them. I'm simply stating that I'm not going to consume them.
My opinion is not going to change. I've read enough studies against them and spoken to people who have had issues with them that I choose to not to partake. Not really sure why this is such a big deal for everyone?
When people say they are going to drink diet soda I don't tell them it's unsafe. I just ignore it and let them make their own decisions.
Yes there are studies that say they are safe...there are just as many that say they aren't safe...it all depends on what side of the coin you're looking to prove.
This shows you haven't taken time to vet sources or understand shortcomings of some studies.
To elaborate. One of the most well-known "it's eviiiiiiil" studies that "proved" it causes cancer had rats that get cancer from a stiff breeze fed amounts of sweetener equal to multiple gallons of diet soda every single day of their natural life starting at 3 months old.8 -
VintageFeline wrote: »I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p1
You can go ahead and consume all the artificial sweeteners you want...doesn't matter to me one bit. Go for it and enjoy them. I'm not judging and I'm not saying you shouldn't drink them. I'm simply stating that I'm not going to consume them.
My opinion is not going to change. I've read enough studies against them and spoken to people who have had issues with them that I choose to not to partake. Not really sure why this is such a big deal for everyone?
When people say they are going to drink diet soda I don't tell them it's unsafe. I just ignore it and let them make their own decisions.
Yes there are studies that say they are safe...there are just as many that say they aren't safe...it all depends on what side of the coin you're looking to prove.
I can only assume you didn't read the thread I linked to.3 -
VintageFeline wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p1
You can go ahead and consume all the artificial sweeteners you want...doesn't matter to me one bit. Go for it and enjoy them. I'm not judging and I'm not saying you shouldn't drink them. I'm simply stating that I'm not going to consume them.
My opinion is not going to change. I've read enough studies against them and spoken to people who have had issues with them that I choose to not to partake. Not really sure why this is such a big deal for everyone?
When people say they are going to drink diet soda I don't tell them it's unsafe. I just ignore it and let them make their own decisions.
Yes there are studies that say they are safe...there are just as many that say they aren't safe...it all depends on what side of the coin you're looking to prove.
I can only assume you didn't read the thread I linked to.
I saw this thread 2 years ago, so it's nothing new to me. Nothing has changed.
What I don't understand is why you (and others) feel the need to constantly try and prove your point that artificial sweeteners are safe? Ok...they are safe. I'm not trying to prove they are dangerous. All I've stated is that I choose to not consume them...why does that have to be argued? I'm not telling you not to consume them. Yes I realize this is a discussion board, but why can't people have their own opinions?
Would it be more helpful if I simply said I don't like the way they taste and the way they make me feel? I'd much rather eat real sugar.2 -
VintageFeline wrote: »I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p1
You can go ahead and consume all the artificial sweeteners you want...doesn't matter to me one bit. Go for it and enjoy them. I'm not judging and I'm not saying you shouldn't drink them. I'm simply stating that I'm not going to consume them.
I really don't want this thread to become another artificial sweetener debate and I don't care if you consume them or not, but I think the reason VintageFeline posted the link is because you didn't just say that you are not going to consume them, but that you believe they are harmful. That they are harmful is a factual claim (different from "I think sweetened coffee is weird and ruins the coffee -- which is a taste preference), so you will get responses. In this case, just a link to a thread where the topic has been discussed at great length (and which is actually pretty interesting).
For the record, I don't drink that much diet soda, but I do drink it occasionally and invariably, EVERY time I am consuming one someone tells me "you know, that causes Alzheimers" or whatever the thing of the day is (cancer before, I suppose). It's slightly annoying, especially since I certainly never tell anyone else to consume it. I also have to pay 1 cent per oz in taxes on it (plus 3% in addition), because it's allegedly bad for you, even though the evidence for that is weak.
But eh, I don't really care (this is discussed in the soda tax thread). I do think it means that it's fair game to cite and link to the evidence that it's actually fine.2 -
https://usrtk.org/sweeteners/aspartame_health_risks/
I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.10 -
https://usrtk.org/sweeteners/aspartame_health_risks/
I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
That looks like a brilliantly objective, science based website *nods*11 -
*Hears the phrase “Vet your sources” echoing in her brain.*6
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https://usrtk.org/sweeteners/aspartame_health_risks/
I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
Um...
(cue awkward moment...)
4 -
Wynterbourne wrote: »*Hears the phrase “Vet your sources” echoing in her brain.*
It's kind of painful isn't it.2 -
https://usrtk.org/sweeteners/aspartame_health_risks/
I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
Science *is* awesome. But that's not science. Here is science - 93 pages summarizing hundreds of actual peer-reviewed studies: http://seriecientifica.org/sites/default/files/scl_enc_butchko.pdf5 -
https://usrtk.org/sweeteners/aspartame_health_risks/
I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
Science *is* awesome. But that's not science. Here is science - 93 pages summarizing hundreds of actual peer-reviewed studies: http://seriecientifica.org/sites/default/files/scl_enc_butchko.pdf
"Harriett H. Butchko Medical and Scientific Affairs, The NutraSweet Company, Mt. Prospect, Illinois"
LOL, but, really, there are tons of studies on aspartame out there that state it is safe, how did you manage to find a 15 years old one, published in a journal with an impact factor of 1.68, whose lead author is an employee of a company (division of Monsanto) that produces artificial sweeteners? Are you for real?
5 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »https://usrtk.org/sweeteners/aspartame_health_risks/
I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
Science *is* awesome. But that's not science. Here is science - 93 pages summarizing hundreds of actual peer-reviewed studies: http://seriecientifica.org/sites/default/files/scl_enc_butchko.pdf
"Harriett H. Butchko Medical and Scientific Affairs, The NutraSweet Company, Mt. Prospect, Illinois"
LOL, but, really, there are tons of studies on aspartame out there that state it is safe, how did you manage to find a 15 years old one, published in a journal with an impact factor of 1.68, whose lead author is an employee of a company (division of Monsanto) that produces artificial sweeteners? Are you for real?
Did you happen to see the voluminous number of studies referenced in the paper? Feel free to look any/all of them up if you have the time and inclination.5 -
VintageFeline wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p1
You can go ahead and consume all the artificial sweeteners you want...doesn't matter to me one bit. Go for it and enjoy them. I'm not judging and I'm not saying you shouldn't drink them. I'm simply stating that I'm not going to consume them.
My opinion is not going to change. I've read enough studies against them and spoken to people who have had issues with them that I choose to not to partake. Not really sure why this is such a big deal for everyone?
When people say they are going to drink diet soda I don't tell them it's unsafe. I just ignore it and let them make their own decisions.
Yes there are studies that say they are safe...there are just as many that say they aren't safe...it all depends on what side of the coin you're looking to prove.
I can only assume you didn't read the thread I linked to.
I saw this thread 2 years ago, so it's nothing new to me. Nothing has changed.
What I don't understand is why you (and others) feel the need to constantly try and prove your point that artificial sweeteners are safe? Ok...they are safe. I'm not trying to prove they are dangerous. All I've stated is that I choose to not consume them...why does that have to be argued? I'm not telling you not to consume them. Yes I realize this is a discussion board, but why can't people have their own opinions?
Would it be more helpful if I simply said I don't like the way they taste and the way they make me feel? I'd much rather eat real sugar.
Uhhhh...When I say I like to avoid a certain type of food, I generally mean I try to not eat it and will choose a different option if available, but do eat it on occasion (hfcs...I won't buy products with it in them, but I'll occasionally have a treat at work that I'm sure has it in there.) There are certain things I just won't eat...artificial sweeteners for example. I know there is a huge debate on these, but it I'm from the side that believes they are harmful and would rather have real sugar. No real changing my mind on this one.
The Brazilian guidelines you quoted pretty much sum up what I follow. I'm not 100% one way or another...there are usually exceptions to the food guidelines I follow, but generally speaking I try to avoid ultra processed when possible (not always).4. Artificial sweeteners are not healthy and the long term effects have yet to be fully discovered and understood. I will never consume them. Those that feel they are safe are 100% free to do so (I will not stop you or comment). Though In 30 years I hope it turns out you were right all along...for your sake.
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VintageFeline wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I'm just going to leave this link here because science. And science is awesome.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1308408/why-aspartame-isnt-scary/p1
You can go ahead and consume all the artificial sweeteners you want...doesn't matter to me one bit. Go for it and enjoy them. I'm not judging and I'm not saying you shouldn't drink them. I'm simply stating that I'm not going to consume them.
My opinion is not going to change. I've read enough studies against them and spoken to people who have had issues with them that I choose to not to partake. Not really sure why this is such a big deal for everyone?
When people say they are going to drink diet soda I don't tell them it's unsafe. I just ignore it and let them make their own decisions.
Yes there are studies that say they are safe...there are just as many that say they aren't safe...it all depends on what side of the coin you're looking to prove.
I can only assume you didn't read the thread I linked to.
I saw this thread 2 years ago, so it's nothing new to me. Nothing has changed.
What I don't understand is why you (and others) feel the need to constantly try and prove your point that artificial sweeteners are safe? Ok...they are safe. I'm not trying to prove they are dangerous. All I've stated is that I choose to not consume them...why does that have to be argued? I'm not telling you not to consume them. Yes I realize this is a discussion board, but why can't people have their own opinions?
Would it be more helpful if I simply said I don't like the way they taste and the way they make me feel? I'd much rather eat real sugar.
1) Because they are.
2) Because you aren't the only person reading this.
That you choose to - for whatever reason - not use aspartame is one thing. That's totally your decision. But to try to dissuade others from doing so without any credible and scientifically proven reasons not to is the exact reason you're getting this pushback.
Aspartame has helped a lot of people reduce their caloric intake dramatically and aided them in reaching and maintaining a healthy weight. To attempt to fear-monger this option off their table is disingenuous at least and ill-informed at best.
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megpie, if you think the MFP community is not adequately focused on nutrition and don't want to debate the merits of ultra processed foods or artificial sweeteners, you might enjoy one of the threads on vegetables and fruit, like http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10586673/how-many-different-fruits-and-veggies-did-you-eat-today#latest
We don't talk about what we do eat, but do act as boosters for our favorite produce sometimes, and IMO it's a lot more important for health to focus on what you do eat (and to include nutrient dense foods like vegetables) than to fret about whether boxed coconut milk (which is probably not a significant part of most people's diets) is ultra processed or not or whether an Oreo is worse for you than a homemade snickerdoodle.* If you have decided that posters who say that "clean eating" is not really a thing or not important must not care about nutrition or eat terrible diets, it might give you more perspective on that too.
*I'm not saying those other discussions can't be fun too, of course! ;-)3 -
alabove2017 wrote: »When you hear the words processed foods what comes to mind. Food processing or package processing?
Food processing. I don't consider putting a whole food in a package as processing. When I hear "processed foods" I think of foods that have been altered in some way from their natural whole state.1 -
Honestly, I don't care who does or doesn't choose to consume aspartame. I'm not much of a consumer myself and also use "real" sugar and sweeteners instead for their various flavours (honey, maple syrup, white sugar, golden caster. Golden castor is brilliant for giving meringues a slightly caramel flavour FYI).
What I do care about is the spread of misinformation and the potential for that to set people up for failure. Much like the whole clean eating thing, people suddenly feel like they have to cut out cookies and cake and pizza and all sorts of other things because they're unhealthy. And then they can't sustain it, eat a bunch of the forbidden foods and give up altogether.
So if people want to consume one of the most studied (or is it actually THE most studied, I forget) food products that has been found to be safe then have at it.
And I read a good chunk of the link you provided, though not the list of abstracts because it was late and I had a date with my bed and Ru Paul; much of it was all speculative correlation. Which isn't causation. Not even close.0
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