Of refeeds and diet breaks
Options
Replies
-
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »There was some epic Twitter kittenry yesterday with lchf fanatics amidst a showdown between Tim Noakes and Alan Aragon.
It all started because the BJSM has been taken over by zealots who apparently think the amount of followers you have is meaningful data.
Ha, yes. I witnessed it in real time. Noakes quoted me in response to my tweet to someone else that brought up insulin out of nowhere when he was "disgusted" with Alan's reply to Tim. Then I ended up having a circular debate with Noakes because he's equating the concept of "high carb diets" to packaged/refined treats, where my argument is that his definition should be the forefront of context when he's using that term because I have yet to see the case where fruit and vegetable carbs alone caused insulin resistance if they were in a eucaloric or hypocaloric state.
ETA: This was also the root cause of my paper writing procrastination
Oh, now I have to go back and read it in full.
Because my *favorite* LCHF strawman is high carb = packaged/refined treats
The entire LCHF narrative is goal post shifting and strawmanning the hell out of rebuttals. Tim said that humans are exposed to "high carb" since CONCEPTION... that sounds truly difficult.
I. can't. even.
Trufax. I low carbed (moderately low, no starches, but ate berries) through my last pregnancy. Just veg, dairy, and meat (was still a meat eater then).
But see, then there's that pesky breast milk thing. That stuff is just brimming with da ebil sugarz.@anubis609 Well, I mean, if you're going to be picky and expect people to define terms and such..
So I guess American fetuses are showing evidence of exposure to Doritos and Frosted Flakes? Weird.
Lol. The thing is I do eat low carb most of the time, and I'm ketotic via acetone breath testing, but I'm macro agnostic when it comes to keeping "the law of keto." I don't care what the macro composition of anyone's diet is if it works for them, so long as protein is appropriate. When someone isn't in a hypercaloric state, there's no chance in hell they're going to develop obesity from a thermodynamic standpoint. Insulin's job isn't to regulate blood glucose. It's to meter fatty acids in response to substrate and cellular energy status. But that's beside the point. In a normal metabolism, no one develops insulin resistance if they're in a healthy weight range and body fat level.
To challenge the whole "insulin makes you fat because carbz are the devil" people like the Abs & Ice Cream guy on youtube and the twinkie diet guy improved their health markers, reduced fat mass, and lost overall weight eating just those things because of an energy deficit, and the rest of nutritional science recognizes this, so they use them as extreme examples.
And even if Noakes wanted to use the extreme euphemism to say people are exposed to crap food earlier in life, he can't blindly call them insulin resistant. Jimmy Moore is the king of ketards pushing low protein and unlimited fat consumption to the brink of morbid obesity and will continuously blame hormones for his size when he boldly claims to eat to satiety and not worry about calories. His fasting insulin shows that he is truly insulin sensitive, which ironically allows people to store fat much easier than someone with insulin resistance.
And damn it all to hell, I've brought my daily hell into this thread. My apologies and condolences. Lol. Let's go back to animals and flip flops/jandals6 -
A couple of thoughts come to mind from this...
1. The "2 day refeed with lots of carbs" is very consistent with my personal experience.
2. We see this all the time on MFP - people are terrible at figuring out their actual maintenance calories when they are outside the normal healthy body fat zones. In actual practice, most people who are (say) 20% overweight (technically obese) will use the usual calculators to figure out maintenance and end up eating at a meaningful caloric surplus instead.
To your 2nd point, exactly that. Maintaining a larger frame will mean eating a lot more to support it. If they were to choose maintenance based on their ideal/reference/goal weight, they would be seeing a deficit if they're overfat. And ultimately, that's the goal.. to lose excess fat weight and maintain an optimal weight within reason (neither underfat or overfat) long term AKA for the rest of their lives.0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »There was some epic Twitter kittenry yesterday with lchf fanatics amidst a showdown between Tim Noakes and Alan Aragon.
It all started because the BJSM has been taken over by zealots who apparently think the amount of followers you have is meaningful data.
Ha, yes. I witnessed it in real time. Noakes quoted me in response to my tweet to someone else that brought up insulin out of nowhere when he was "disgusted" with Alan's reply to Tim. Then I ended up having a circular debate with Noakes because he's equating the concept of "high carb diets" to packaged/refined treats, where my argument is that his definition should be the forefront of context when he's using that term because I have yet to see the case where fruit and vegetable carbs alone caused insulin resistance if they were in a eucaloric or hypocaloric state.
ETA: This was also the root cause of my paper writing procrastination
Oh, now I have to go back and read it in full.
Because my *favorite* LCHF strawman is high carb = packaged/refined treats
The entire LCHF narrative is goal post shifting and strawmanning the hell out of rebuttals. Tim said that humans are exposed to "high carb" since CONCEPTION... that sounds truly difficult.
I. can't. even.
Trufax. I low carbed (moderately low, no starches, but ate berries) through my last pregnancy. Just veg, dairy, and meat (was still a meat eater then).
But see, then there's that pesky breast milk thing. That stuff is just brimming with da ebil sugarz.@anubis609 Well, I mean, if you're going to be picky and expect people to define terms and such..
So I guess American fetuses are showing evidence of exposure to Doritos and Frosted Flakes? Weird.
Lol. The thing is I do eat low carb most of the time, and I'm ketotic via acetone breath testing, but I'm macro agnostic when it comes to keeping "the law of keto." I don't care what the macro composition of anyone's diet is if it works for them, so long as protein is appropriate. When someone isn't in a hypercaloric state, there's no chance in hell they're going to develop obesity from a thermodynamic standpoint. Insulin's job isn't to regulate blood glucose. It's to meter fatty acids in response to substrate and cellular energy status. But that's beside the point. In a normal metabolism, no one develops insulin resistance if they're in a healthy weight range and body fat level.
To challenge the whole "insulin makes you fat because carbz are the devil" people like the Abs & Ice Cream guy on youtube and the twinkie diet guy improved their health markers, reduced fat mass, and lost overall weight eating just those things because of an energy deficit, and the rest of nutritional science recognizes this, so they use them as extreme examples.
And even if Noakes wanted to use the extreme euphemism to say people are exposed to crap food earlier in life, he can't blindly call them insulin resistant. Jimmy Moore is the king of ketards pushing low protein and unlimited fat consumption to the brink of morbid obesity and will continuously blame hormones for his size when he boldly claims to eat to satiety and not worry about calories. His fasting insulin shows that he is truly insulin sensitive, which ironically allows people to store fat much easier than someone with insulin resistance.
And damn it all to hell, I've brought my daily hell into this thread. My apologies and condolences. Lol. Let's go back to animals and flip flops/jandals
Yeah, at a deficit, and especially if I didn't have a lot of exercise cals to play with, I was lower carb too. Like you, I just didn't hail it as The One True Way. When I was still overweight, I was possibly a bit insulin resistant and did seem to do better on low carb (I possibly maybe have PCOS). Once I hit a bit below top of normal BMI that disappears (shock, horror), and the lower carbs were purely because there wasn't a lot of room left after fat and protein. My carb intake, needless to say, has gone up considerably at maintenance cals.3 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »There was some epic Twitter kittenry yesterday with lchf fanatics amidst a showdown between Tim Noakes and Alan Aragon.
It all started because the BJSM has been taken over by zealots who apparently think the amount of followers you have is meaningful data.
Ha, yes. I witnessed it in real time. Noakes quoted me in response to my tweet to someone else that brought up insulin out of nowhere when he was "disgusted" with Alan's reply to Tim. Then I ended up having a circular debate with Noakes because he's equating the concept of "high carb diets" to packaged/refined treats, where my argument is that his definition should be the forefront of context when he's using that term because I have yet to see the case where fruit and vegetable carbs alone caused insulin resistance if they were in a eucaloric or hypocaloric state.
ETA: This was also the root cause of my paper writing procrastination
Oh, now I have to go back and read it in full.
Because my *favorite* LCHF strawman is high carb = packaged/refined treats
The entire LCHF narrative is goal post shifting and strawmanning the hell out of rebuttals. Tim said that humans are exposed to "high carb" since CONCEPTION... that sounds truly difficult.
I. can't. even.
Trufax. I low carbed (moderately low, no starches, but ate berries) through my last pregnancy. Just veg, dairy, and meat (was still a meat eater then).
But see, then there's that pesky breast milk thing. That stuff is just brimming with da ebil sugarz.@anubis609 Well, I mean, if you're going to be picky and expect people to define terms and such..
So I guess American fetuses are showing evidence of exposure to Doritos and Frosted Flakes? Weird.
Lol. The thing is I do eat low carb most of the time, and I'm ketotic via acetone breath testing, but I'm macro agnostic when it comes to keeping "the law of keto." I don't care what the macro composition of anyone's diet is if it works for them, so long as protein is appropriate. When someone isn't in a hypercaloric state, there's no chance in hell they're going to develop obesity from a thermodynamic standpoint. Insulin's job isn't to regulate blood glucose. It's to meter fatty acids in response to substrate and cellular energy status. But that's beside the point. In a normal metabolism, no one develops insulin resistance if they're in a healthy weight range and body fat level.
To challenge the whole "insulin makes you fat because carbz are the devil" people like the Abs & Ice Cream guy on youtube and the twinkie diet guy improved their health markers, reduced fat mass, and lost overall weight eating just those things because of an energy deficit, and the rest of nutritional science recognizes this, so they use them as extreme examples.
And even if Noakes wanted to use the extreme euphemism to say people are exposed to crap food earlier in life, he can't blindly call them insulin resistant. Jimmy Moore is the king of ketards pushing low protein and unlimited fat consumption to the brink of morbid obesity and will continuously blame hormones for his size when he boldly claims to eat to satiety and not worry about calories. His fasting insulin shows that he is truly insulin sensitive, which ironically allows people to store fat much easier than someone with insulin resistance.
And damn it all to hell, I've brought my daily hell into this thread. My apologies and condolences. Lol. Let's go back to animals and flip flops/jandals
Yeah, at a deficit, and especially if I didn't have a lot of exercise cals to play with, I was lower carb too. Like you, I just didn't hail it as The One True Way. When I was still overweight, I was possibly a bit insulin resistant and did seem to do better on low carb (I possibly maybe have PCOS). Once I hit a bit below top of normal BMI that disappears (shock, horror), and the lower carbs were purely because there wasn't a lot of room left after fat and protein. My carb intake, needless to say, has gone up considerably at maintenance cals.
And data show that IR seems to improve with lower carb diets, even when advised to eat ad lib. It has a place in dietary practice, and what usually happens is when you tell someone to reduce their carb intake, their immediate thought of "carbs" is the refined sugar *kitten* we already know and secretly love every other weekend or holiday, so they cut that down and they tend to eat more protein. Then something magical happens. They lose weight (because of reduced overall energy intake), they feel more confident in themselves and start becoming active. Then they start enjoying activity which creates a positive feedback cycle of "the better I feel, the better I eat" .. lo and behold the one true diet becomes gospel and they're now arguing on twitter.
Psychologically, it becomes the whole "I've tried everything and this is the only thing that worked!" and the reality is that while they were able to stabilize glucose fluctuations, the rest of the magic happened when they were in an energy deficit and lost excess fat. What a lot of people find out is once they've regained insulin sensitivity via diet AND activity (specifically resistance training), they actually are able to handle more carbs and remain metabolically flexible. If long-term/severe damage has happened due to overfeeding and elevated health markers, then it changes the end result of what "optimal" is. Some people may not be able to handle higher carbs at all, while others can go about their lives as if they were never afflicted. On the flip side, there are some people that absolutely plummet their health when reducing carbs.
Which brings us to the overarching narrative that there is no one true diet and people need to find out what works for them. If it keeps them adherent, happy, and healthy, then they've successfully achieved what many people are still struggling to find.7 -
My starchy carb intake fluctuates with my activity levels. Since I've been hit pretty badly with this fatigue nonsense, I've cut back, but that's mostly because my activity scaled back, TDEE dropped a couple hundred calories, which was where the starch fit in my diet.
I keep fat and protein constant. I also keep my veggie intake constant because nutrition. Now, I eat a lot of vegetables, so I still have a decent carb intake, but they're not really starchy except on days where I eat butternut squash.
Mind you, I still have my little fun size bags of M & M's. Life can't be boring, you know.5 -
Just to bring cats back into the equation. They're keto AF and my Chilli in particular sports some extra padding. Betty less so. And Horatio is obvs still growing and lanky as hell.6
-
Sooo, I chucked a pav recipe into the recipe builder. One serving is less than 200 cals, and is only half an egg white (for some reason I always think there's 5 billion egg whites in a pav, I've never actually made one).0
-
Snickers is just overfed.. he's on a higher protein diet now but when I got him, the cheap stuff was what he got and well..
7 -
The twins are now fully on their ketogenic raw diet (not taking any chances with Mario's kidneys, even though the full diagnostics came back fine, dehydration shouldn't have caused elevated creatine, he could well be at the very early stage of renal insufficiency, so no dry for him). Toby is on da ebil carby dry food for his crystals, because he won't eat the prescription wet food. The plus side of moving to meal feeding is that I can better monitor how much butter ball Toby gets. He is living proof that low cal food in excess does not result in weight loss (though he has only been on it a month, and I'm going purely on visual).3
-
Snickers is just overfed.. he's on a higher protein diet now but when I got him, the cheap stuff was what he got and well..
Adorable
I want a kitty 
and @Psychgrrl I love the "The Princess Bride" themed names! 2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Sooo, I chucked a pav recipe into the recipe builder. One serving is less than 200 cals, and is only half an egg white (for some reason I always think there's 5 billion egg whites in a pav, I've never actually made one).
Half an egg white? But a pav is a giant meringue. I make meringues and half an egg white won't even get you a "p".4 -
My lot are grain free exclusively wet (though we did get a treat box from our online supplies place and that has some dry as a treat) but they do enjoy raw. I just don't have the freezer space with me also buying my meat in bulk and freezing. Nowhere for a second freezer to go so for now they get the best wet I can afford.
And as if he knows I'm talking about him the demon has come for a snuggle.3 -
dancefit2015 wrote: »Snickers is just overfed.. he's on a higher protein diet now but when I got him, the cheap stuff was what he got and well..
Adorable I want a kitty and @Psychgrrl I love the "The Princess Bride" themed names!
Lol he's a giant baby. He's more dog than cat in terms of wanting affection...except he'll nip at your calves if you try to ignore him when he's asking for something. That and having 28 lbs on your chest when he's kneading you before going to sleep is kind of breathtaking - literally
4 -
Oh, on the meringues, I should add that they aren't very calorific at all. They're one of my go tos for something lower calorie but still delicious. I've done Eton mess with Greek yoghurt instead of cream, delicious and macro friendly!1
-
VintageFeline wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Sooo, I chucked a pav recipe into the recipe builder. One serving is less than 200 cals, and is only half an egg white (for some reason I always think there's 5 billion egg whites in a pav, I've never actually made one).
Half an egg white? But a pav is a giant meringue. I make meringues and half an egg white won't even get you a "p".
I think this recipe is for the flatter variety, so only three egg whites. Really, any decent pav should have six. Though, doing the smaller one, chances are everyone will actually eat two servings, leaving no leftovers to tempt me. And I really do think I can handle one egg white...0 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Sooo, I chucked a pav recipe into the recipe builder. One serving is less than 200 cals, and is only half an egg white (for some reason I always think there's 5 billion egg whites in a pav, I've never actually made one).
Half an egg white? But a pav is a giant meringue. I make meringues and half an egg white won't even get you a "p".
I think this recipe is for the flatter variety, so only three egg whites. Really, any decent pav should have six. Though, doing the smaller one, chances are everyone will actually eat two servings, leaving no leftovers to tempt me. And I really do think I can handle one egg white...
Sigh! I thought this was supposed to be a "diet" site; not an "I now want Terry's Oranges and to eat a Pavlova and be terrorised by cats" site. I suppose the prevalence of vicious felines (vicious; not vintage) explains the tendency of so many discussions to degenerate to *kitten*.
And why do *I* think that I've let the home team down by not having a PAV since I started logging on MFP?!?!?! I wonder if they sell them in the frozen food section
2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Sooo, I chucked a pav recipe into the recipe builder. One serving is less than 200 cals, and is only half an egg white (for some reason I always think there's 5 billion egg whites in a pav, I've never actually made one).
Half an egg white? But a pav is a giant meringue. I make meringues and half an egg white won't even get you a "p".
I think this recipe is for the flatter variety, so only three egg whites. Really, any decent pav should have six. Though, doing the smaller one, chances are everyone will actually eat two servings, leaving no leftovers to tempt me. And I really do think I can handle one egg white...
Sigh! I thought this was supposed to be a "diet" site; not an "I now want Terry's Oranges and to eat a Pavlova and be terrorised by cats" site. I suppose the prevalence of vicious felines (vicious; not vintage) explains the tendency of so many discussions to degenerate to *kitten*.
And why do *I* think that I've let the home team down by not having a PAV since I started logging on MFP?!?!?! I wonder if they sell them in the frozen food section
Yes, you really should have pav!! You should also just make a fresh one (you could make a mini one, so there's not so much temptation). And pav is diet food, egg whites (and a crap ton of sugar...)!!
Niece and I have done some further vague planning. She will make the pavlova, since she has done this before. Christmas Day would not be the time discover I have inherited my mother's total lack of pavlova-making skill. We will have nibbly things (I don't know what these are yet, probably fruit and cheese) and throw some things in the direction of the bbq (corn on the cob, haloumi, asparagus if there's still any about, roasted potatoes). And lots of wine.1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Sooo, I chucked a pav recipe into the recipe builder. One serving is less than 200 cals, and is only half an egg white (for some reason I always think there's 5 billion egg whites in a pav, I've never actually made one).
Half an egg white? But a pav is a giant meringue. I make meringues and half an egg white won't even get you a "p".
I think this recipe is for the flatter variety, so only three egg whites. Really, any decent pav should have six. Though, doing the smaller one, chances are everyone will actually eat two servings, leaving no leftovers to tempt me. And I really do think I can handle one egg white...
Sigh! I thought this was supposed to be a "diet" site; not an "I now want Terry's Oranges and to eat a Pavlova and be terrorised by cats" site. I suppose the prevalence of vicious felines (vicious; not vintage) explains the tendency of so many discussions to degenerate to *kitten*.
And why do *I* think that I've let the home team down by not having a PAV since I started logging on MFP?!?!?! I wonder if they sell them in the frozen food section
Meringues are usually in our supermarkets bakery section... One big store has brought out a fancy thing for Christmas covered in choc and salted caramel drizzle, which is in the freezer. My brain doesn't understand - to me, that's going to be detrimental to the meringue texture1 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Sooo, I chucked a pav recipe into the recipe builder. One serving is less than 200 cals, and is only half an egg white (for some reason I always think there's 5 billion egg whites in a pav, I've never actually made one).
Half an egg white? But a pav is a giant meringue. I make meringues and half an egg white won't even get you a "p".
I think this recipe is for the flatter variety, so only three egg whites. Really, any decent pav should have six. Though, doing the smaller one, chances are everyone will actually eat two servings, leaving no leftovers to tempt me. And I really do think I can handle one egg white...
Sigh! I thought this was supposed to be a "diet" site; not an "I now want Terry's Oranges and to eat a Pavlova and be terrorised by cats" site. I suppose the prevalence of vicious felines (vicious; not vintage) explains the tendency of so many discussions to degenerate to *kitten*.
And why do *I* think that I've let the home team down by not having a PAV since I started logging on MFP?!?!?! I wonder if they sell them in the frozen food section
Meringues are usually in our supermarkets bakery section... One big store has brought out a fancy thing for Christmas covered in choc and salted caramel drizzle, which is in the freezer. My brain doesn't understand - to me, that's going to be detrimental to the meringue texture
That's what I thought too, hence the make fresh.
I was going to strength train before dinner, but it's too damn hot. I will do it in the morning.0 -
@livingleanlivingclean - As long as the machine is calibrated and you are coming in at right time - very accurate.
When a unit on truck drives up to the gym for free or cheap readings, or a mall - be wary.
They know full well that if people hadn't planned - they are invalid readings - no food for at minimum 4 hrs, longer is better because if still digesting food - you are expiring CO2 purely for that reason, not only the metabolizing of fuel. And no working out day prior is better too - no higher metabolism dealing with repair or replenishment.
So going to gym for free/cheap readings means they know they are bad - and likely haven't calibrated their unit, or are about to and want to get some final money in before that process.
I wouldn't trust a place like that even if they did just do the process and I'm first the next morning. Who knows what other sloppy stuff they'll be doing?
Now, if gym required signup and gave you sheet for what was required of you - eh, maybe. I'd still ask if they ever went to the mall or some corp business office and ran spur-the-moment tests for people.
Mine has always been at the start of a VO2max test, so sitting not reclining, and 5 min not 15, and tons of wires hanging off body instead of just nice face mask. But I calm down quick, if HR is indication, so I figure pretty decent even if not true RMR.
And since at hospital heart unit - very immovable unit.
Good to know. I had mine done before my VO2 max as well and they were quite firm on the instructions about eating, drinking and exercising beforehand when I set up the appointment. They talked about how the calibrate the machines. I had it done at the campus's fitness lab. Interestingly enough, my RMR was 25% higher than the average for my age, gender, weight and height. I wonder how that intersects with my hypothyroidism.
Sounds like you had some tech's used to doing studies.
It would take just slightly larger than avg of the metabolically active organs accounting for most of your RMR to push you higher.
Shoot - maybe it's all in the brain activity higher than normal!!!!!
And with hypo - perhaps it could have been 30% higher.3
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 392.1K Introduce Yourself
- 43.6K Getting Started
- 259.9K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.7K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.4K Fitness and Exercise
- 403 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.8K Motivation and Support
- 7.9K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.4K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.4K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions