Of refeeds and diet breaks

13567…148

Replies

  • Rickster1967
    Rickster1967 Posts: 485 Member
    anubis609 wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    I'm looking forward to reaching goal weight so I can use all this knowledge to manipulate body comp. I'm lucky I burn fat and gain muscle easily so when I get switched on I can make great gains.

    Just got about 100 more pounds of fat to burn first...

    If you do have that much to lose, you actually are at a metabolic advantage over a natural lean athlete to manipulate body composition. Lift heavy things properly, eat enough protein, and be at a deficit *just low enough to lose weight*, but not so low that you hate life. I'll use the Physiqonomics heurisic: for fat loss, training supports your diet; for muscle gain, diet supports your training.

    Right, I'm eating 40/30/30 on 2000 calories

    training 2 x weekly heavy weights - deadlifting etc, real improvement in strength in 12 weeks, dropped 35lbs in weight, 140 total to lose.

    As I get stronger and therefore can train harder still I'll try the body recomp. Have a PT who is a competitive, natural bodybuilder and he is on the case

    But I'd really welcome advice and explanations if you were inclined to help. Doing a few HIIT cardio sessions a week too.
  • Rickster1967
    Rickster1967 Posts: 485 Member
    anubis609 wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    I'm looking forward to reaching goal weight so I can use all this knowledge to manipulate body comp. I'm lucky I burn fat and gain muscle easily so when I get switched on I can make great gains.

    Just got about 100 more pounds of fat to burn first...

    If you do have that much to lose, you actually are at a metabolic advantage over a natural lean athlete to manipulate body composition. Lift heavy things properly, eat enough protein, and be at a deficit *just low enough to lose weight*, but not so low that you hate life. I'll use the Physiqonomics heurisic: for fat loss, training supports your diet; for muscle gain, diet supports your training.

    Right, I'm eating 40/30/30 on 2000 calories

    training 2 x weekly heavy weights - deadlifting etc, real improvement in strength in 12 weeks, dropped 35lbs in weight, 140 total to lose.

    As I get stronger and therefore can train harder still I'll try the body recomp. Have a PT who is a competitive, natural bodybuilder and he is on the case

    But I'd really welcome advice and explanations if you were inclined to help. Doing a few HIIT cardio sessions a week too.

    If you trust in your trainer and are seeing objectively measurable real world results with strength increases, weight loss, and a diet composition that you're happy with, then I actually wouldn't impose any extra information. The only thing I can say, if your PT hasn't already told you, is that patience is going to be your best friend. The goal you've set for yourself is going to take longer than you expect to achieve. And this is absolutely normal because as you get leaner, your body is not going to like losing more energy (fat) than it feels that it needs to. Maintaining sub 10% bodyfat is doable, but by that time it's an absolute lifestyle change.

    For now, you're 12 weeks in with a long road ahead of you. Keep doing what you're doing, enjoy the training, enjoy your diet, enjoy the periods of suck, enjoy the PRs.. you'll learn more as you go along, but if you can keep it as simple as possible, that will be your foundation for everything else.

    I've been super buff and superfat multiple times over the last 30 years so I know what to expect. Never had to recover from being this fat before though
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    (☞ﾟヮﾟ)☞ ☜(ﾟヮﾟ☜)

    I tend to generalize a lot of my responses, but you're welcome @Nony_Mouse

    I have the tendency to get up my own hole regarding being neurotic about the nuances of stuff like fluctuations, macros, micros, labs, etc., so it becomes a reminder if I express to everyone else that being on my level of insanity isn't recommended haha. Cheers!

    Genralised is good imho @anubis609. Even if the person you're responding to already knows it, others can learn. That was really my primary objective in starting this thread, trying to get concepts like diet breaks etc out to the general MFP populace. I know a lot of people are quite happy just trucking along, they don't feel the need to understand all the physiology behind weight loss, nor do they need to (I'm a bit of a geek, so I want to understand it), but when something as simple as taking a couple of weeks out at maintenance can actually help their weight loss, then that's good stuff to know. And I think it helps to see other people say 'hey, yeah, I've done that, didn't gain 10 lbs, felt awesome, and the process seems easier/more effective again after'.

    This speaks to me deeply lol. My dropbox is full of meta-analyses, RCTs, studies, etc. so much so to the point I can barely keep up.
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    I'm looking forward to reaching goal weight so I can use all this knowledge to manipulate body comp. I'm lucky I burn fat and gain muscle easily so when I get switched on I can make great gains.

    Just got about 100 more pounds of fat to burn first...

    If you do have that much to lose, you actually are at a metabolic advantage over a natural lean athlete to manipulate body composition. Lift heavy things properly, eat enough protein, and be at a deficit *just low enough to lose weight*, but not so low that you hate life. I'll use the Physiqonomics heurisic: for fat loss, training supports your diet; for muscle gain, diet supports your training.

    Right, I'm eating 40/30/30 on 2000 calories

    training 2 x weekly heavy weights - deadlifting etc, real improvement in strength in 12 weeks, dropped 35lbs in weight, 140 total to lose.

    As I get stronger and therefore can train harder still I'll try the body recomp. Have a PT who is a competitive, natural bodybuilder and he is on the case

    But I'd really welcome advice and explanations if you were inclined to help. Doing a few HIIT cardio sessions a week too.

    If you trust in your trainer and are seeing objectively measurable real world results with strength increases, weight loss, and a diet composition that you're happy with, then I actually wouldn't impose any extra information. The only thing I can say, if your PT hasn't already told you, is that patience is going to be your best friend. The goal you've set for yourself is going to take longer than you expect to achieve. And this is absolutely normal because as you get leaner, your body is not going to like losing more energy (fat) than it feels that it needs to. Maintaining sub 10% bodyfat is doable, but by that time it's an absolute lifestyle change.

    For now, you're 12 weeks in with a long road ahead of you. Keep doing what you're doing, enjoy the training, enjoy your diet, enjoy the periods of suck, enjoy the PRs.. you'll learn more as you go along, but if you can keep it as simple as possible, that will be your foundation for everything else.

    I've been super buff and superfat multiple times over the last 30 years so I know what to expect. Never had to recover from being this fat before though

    Dude, you're practically a veteran at this point. You've basically optimized your recomp potential being formerly trained and coming back after a layoff. Nothing else really changes when leaning out/making gains unless you've developed some kind of metabolic disturbance; i.e. insulin resistance/fatty liver/T2D from the weight gain.. even then it's a minor hindrance in the grand scheme of things since insulin resistance is reversible with proper diet and training. Just don't rebound back to excessive fat gain.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    For anyone who wants to listen to the podcast as an mp3 rather than watching the video, it's available on iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/macros-bodybuilding-powerlifting/id1145138636?mt=2
  • CynthiasChoice
    CynthiasChoice Posts: 1,047 Member
    After hearing about and reading the Matador study, and discussing the ins and outs with you, Nony_Mouse, I decided to go on a controlled diet break. I began last Monday, and have been finding it really hard to reach 150 grams carbs every day, but I get close. One thing I didn't consider is "net carbs" which I've never paid attention to. My fiber intake is very high, 40 - 45 grams on average. Do I need to worry about fiber negating the positive impact of increasing carbs?

    (Looking forward to watching the video soon!)
  • EatingAndKnitting
    EatingAndKnitting Posts: 531 Member
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    jesslla wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    (☞ﾟヮﾟ)☞ ☜(ﾟヮﾟ☜)

    I tend to generalize a lot of my responses, but you're welcome @Nony_Mouse

    I have the tendency to get up my own hole regarding being neurotic about the nuances of stuff like fluctuations, macros, micros, labs, etc., so it becomes a reminder if I express to everyone else that being on my level of insanity isn't recommended haha. Cheers!

    Genralised is good imho @anubis609. Even if the person you're responding to already knows it, others can learn. That was really my primary objective in starting this thread, trying to get concepts like diet breaks etc out to the general MFP populace. I know a lot of people are quite happy just trucking along, they don't feel the need to understand all the physiology behind weight loss, nor do they need to (I'm a bit of a geek, so I want to understand it), but when something as simple as taking a couple of weeks out at maintenance can actually help their weight loss, then that's good stuff to know. And I think it helps to see other people say 'hey, yeah, I've done that, didn't gain 10 lbs, felt awesome, and the process seems easier/more effective again after'.

    I'm taking an official break next week for two weeks because of this thread and others like it.

    I took one that ended up being three months long and wasn't really a break, but going back to "eat whatever" and I got lucky that I ate at basically maintanence. Maybe it wasn't really luck though, because I knew it was a break, but there was no real plan for it. I just stopped tracking. This time I'm tracking, just eating a little more.

    I find that after about three months I stop sticking to my plan as well as I do at the beginning of it. I may have to take scheduled breaks for the rest of my life, even at maintanence, where I allow myself to go over maintainance a bit for two weeks.

    I thank you for this thread, and whoever else posted that article about diet breaks over the forums over the past couple weeks, it's just what I needed.

    I have those scheduled "*kitten* it" breaks entirely separately from official diet breaks. Although I have actually used them together on two week vacations. I think there's merit to that psychologically as long as it doesn't turn into oh *kitten* I gained 10/20/30lbs.

    I never want to do this again (lose a large account of weight). I hope this time of massive NOT FUN deficit eating has given me enough motivation to make sure I've learned how to never let that happen again!

    My plan is to allow a couple weeks of, once I get to maintainance, being allowed to eat over my limit by like 250 calories a day, then go back to a deficit to lose the extra.

    This plan may change in a couple years when I get to maintainance, because I still have 100 pounds to go. I may say losing weight at that size is too hard to say *kitten* it, but I suspect I'll appreciate a bit of flexibility planned into my plan.

    I also plan on having a range of weight to stay in, so I can prevent massive gains. Probably ten pounds of my goal, just to cover potential water weight. We'll see when I get closer. A lot can change in 100 pounds! :grin:
  • TavistockToad
    TavistockToad Posts: 35,719 Member
    I'm too full to get into maintenance because today was long run day plus a load of walking... re-feed fail... :disappointed:
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    Thanks @GottaBurnEmAll

    The podcasts are also often quite technical, so having some understanding of the physiology of weight loss first can be mighty helpful. Lyle's website is jam packed with short, user-friendly articles: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/articles/

    This is another excellent podcast (actually two, cos it's long!), the second part he talks a lot about weight loss for the general public, as opposed to more of a focus on hardcore fitness peeps: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/podcasts/epic-podcast-with-abbey-orr-of-first-base-fitness.html/

    Available on iTunes as well for those who don't like videos.
  • maybyn
    maybyn Posts: 233 Member
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

    ----

    When you diet, even if the deficit is a reasonable amount, certain hormones are downregulated and they affect satiation and your energy levels. The purpose of a higher carb maintenance refeed is to get those hormone levels back to baseline so that you are compliant with your diet, your energy levels when you exercise are where they should be, and your diet just overall works better.

    ----

    Does that mean that even if you are on a small deficit but on a reasonable amount of carbs, a higher carb maintenance refeed is required to get the hormone levels back to baseline?

    And is this true for both lean and not so lean people?

    For example, I'm on 1800 cals atm (60% carbs), which is approx 300 cal deficit and BF is around 22% (DEXA scan, may be a bit lower now). Is it a good idea to go to say, 80-90% carbs at 2100 cals maintenance or stick with 60% carb at 2100 cals or something else?
  • CynthiasChoice
    CynthiasChoice Posts: 1,047 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Thanks @GottaBurnEmAll

    The podcasts are also often quite technical, so having some understanding of the physiology of weight loss first can be mighty helpful. Lyle's website is jam packed with short, user-friendly articles: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/articles/

    This is another excellent podcast (actually two, cos it's long!), the second part he talks a lot about weight loss for the general public, as opposed to more of a focus on hardcore fitness peeps: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/podcasts/epic-podcast-with-abbey-orr-of-first-base-fitness.html/

    Available on iTunes as well for those who don't like videos.

    Thanks for sharing the links! After listening to a bit of the second link you posted, part 1, Lyle McDonald states that the two most important things women can do to help their bodies burn more fat is lift heavy weights and eat more protein.

    For some reason, his voice puts me to sleep! Finally - the sleep remedy I've been looking for, lol! (No disrespect intended.)
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    CynthiasChoice wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Thanks @GottaBurnEmAll

    The podcasts are also often quite technical, so having some understanding of the physiology of weight loss first can be mighty helpful. Lyle's website is jam packed with short, user-friendly articles: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/articles/

    This is another excellent podcast (actually two, cos it's long!), the second part he talks a lot about weight loss for the general public, as opposed to more of a focus on hardcore fitness peeps: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/podcasts/epic-podcast-with-abbey-orr-of-first-base-fitness.html/

    Available on iTunes as well for those who don't like videos.

    Thanks for sharing the links! After listening to a bit of the second link you posted, part 1, Lyle McDonald states that the two most important things women can do to help their bodies burn more fat is lift heavy weights and eat more protein.

    For some reason, his voice puts me to sleep! Finally - the sleep remedy I've been looking for, lol! (No disrespect intended.)

    Carry on listening to that podcast and he actually talks about the importance of sleep!

    And yes, if you get nothing else from it, those are the two key messages for women :)
  • JaydedMiss
    JaydedMiss Posts: 4,286 Member
    edited October 2017
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    maybyn wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

    ----

    When you diet, even if the deficit is a reasonable amount, certain hormones are downregulated and they affect satiation and your energy levels. The purpose of a higher carb maintenance refeed is to get those hormone levels back to baseline so that you are compliant with your diet, your energy levels when you exercise are where they should be, and your diet just overall works better.

    ----

    Does that mean that even if you are on a small deficit but on a reasonable amount of carbs, a higher carb maintenance refeed is required to get the hormone levels back to baseline?

    And is this true for both lean and not so lean people?

    For example, I'm on 1800 cals atm (60% carbs), which is approx 300 cal deficit and BF is around 22% (DEXA scan, may be a bit lower now). Is it a good idea to go to say, 80-90% carbs at 2100 cals maintenance or stick with 60% carb at 2100 cals or something else?

    The leaner you get, the more important things like diet breaks and refeeds become. Because your deficit is small, your metabolic adaptations aren't going to be as pronounced as they would be for someone at a higher deficit, but they are still happening. If you're happy with how you are trucking along, then you can probably just carry on as you are. If you're finding that you're starting to struggle, either in terms of weight loss slowing down, feeling hungrier, or having less energy, then a refeed or full diet break may be in order. I don't think you need to go to 80-90% carbs though, that would really be squeezing out protein, which should be kept the same.

    You'll be getting more carbs just by virtue of eating more. My carb intake usually sits around 80-100g a day, just because protein and fat don't leave a lot of room for more, and when I do have the cals for more, I'm probably going to choose a protein shake with dark choc peanut butter over anything else! So for me, getting carbs up for the refeed was really important. It probably also depends on what sort of exercise you are doing and how much you are depleting your glycogen.

    My take on all of this is that everyone should be doing periodic diet breaks (read the article on diet breaks, it's short and explains it all, why and how to). Refeeds are more for lean people getting leaner (or people like me who are playing with the last few pounds, like to mess around with this stuff, and don't really care if it takes a few extra weeks to get to goal).

    What about people like me who eat 200-300g of carbs a day xD Iv been hungry non stop lately, Cant really up my carbs more thn i have. Means a carb refeed for me wouldnt help much i imagine lol. Iv never done one in 110 pounds loss because i have always eaten high carb even with big deficits so i didnt see a point
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    JaydedMiss wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    maybyn wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

    ----

    When you diet, even if the deficit is a reasonable amount, certain hormones are downregulated and they affect satiation and your energy levels. The purpose of a higher carb maintenance refeed is to get those hormone levels back to baseline so that you are compliant with your diet, your energy levels when you exercise are where they should be, and your diet just overall works better.

    ----

    Does that mean that even if you are on a small deficit but on a reasonable amount of carbs, a higher carb maintenance refeed is required to get the hormone levels back to baseline?

    And is this true for both lean and not so lean people?

    For example, I'm on 1800 cals atm (60% carbs), which is approx 300 cal deficit and BF is around 22% (DEXA scan, may be a bit lower now). Is it a good idea to go to say, 80-90% carbs at 2100 cals maintenance or stick with 60% carb at 2100 cals or something else?

    The leaner you get, the more important things like diet breaks and refeeds become. Because your deficit is small, your metabolic adaptations aren't going to be as pronounced as they would be for someone at a higher deficit, but they are still happening. If you're happy with how you are trucking along, then you can probably just carry on as you are. If you're finding that you're starting to struggle, either in terms of weight loss slowing down, feeling hungrier, or having less energy, then a refeed or full diet break may be in order. I don't think you need to go to 80-90% carbs though, that would really be squeezing out protein, which should be kept the same.

    You'll be getting more carbs just by virtue of eating more. My carb intake usually sits around 80-100g a day, just because protein and fat don't leave a lot of room for more, and when I do have the cals for more, I'm probably going to choose a protein shake with dark choc peanut butter over anything else! So for me, getting carbs up for the refeed was really important. It probably also depends on what sort of exercise you are doing and how much you are depleting your glycogen.

    My take on all of this is that everyone should be doing periodic diet breaks (read the article on diet breaks, it's short and explains it all, why and how to). Refeeds are more for lean people getting leaner (or people like me who are playing with the last few pounds, like to mess around with this stuff, and don't really care if it takes a few extra weeks to get to goal).

    What about people like me who eat 200-300g of carbs a day xD Iv been hungry non stop lately, Cant really up my carbs more thn i have. Means a carb refeed for me wouldnt help much i imagine lol. Iv never done one in 110 pounds loss because i have always eaten high carb even with big deficits so i didnt see a point

    Can't remember if you're still losing or in maintenance now, but if you're still losing, diet break.
  • JaydedMiss
    JaydedMiss Posts: 4,286 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    JaydedMiss wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    maybyn wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

    ----

    When you diet, even if the deficit is a reasonable amount, certain hormones are downregulated and they affect satiation and your energy levels. The purpose of a higher carb maintenance refeed is to get those hormone levels back to baseline so that you are compliant with your diet, your energy levels when you exercise are where they should be, and your diet just overall works better.

    ----

    Does that mean that even if you are on a small deficit but on a reasonable amount of carbs, a higher carb maintenance refeed is required to get the hormone levels back to baseline?

    And is this true for both lean and not so lean people?

    For example, I'm on 1800 cals atm (60% carbs), which is approx 300 cal deficit and BF is around 22% (DEXA scan, may be a bit lower now). Is it a good idea to go to say, 80-90% carbs at 2100 cals maintenance or stick with 60% carb at 2100 cals or something else?

    The leaner you get, the more important things like diet breaks and refeeds become. Because your deficit is small, your metabolic adaptations aren't going to be as pronounced as they would be for someone at a higher deficit, but they are still happening. If you're happy with how you are trucking along, then you can probably just carry on as you are. If you're finding that you're starting to struggle, either in terms of weight loss slowing down, feeling hungrier, or having less energy, then a refeed or full diet break may be in order. I don't think you need to go to 80-90% carbs though, that would really be squeezing out protein, which should be kept the same.

    You'll be getting more carbs just by virtue of eating more. My carb intake usually sits around 80-100g a day, just because protein and fat don't leave a lot of room for more, and when I do have the cals for more, I'm probably going to choose a protein shake with dark choc peanut butter over anything else! So for me, getting carbs up for the refeed was really important. It probably also depends on what sort of exercise you are doing and how much you are depleting your glycogen.

    My take on all of this is that everyone should be doing periodic diet breaks (read the article on diet breaks, it's short and explains it all, why and how to). Refeeds are more for lean people getting leaner (or people like me who are playing with the last few pounds, like to mess around with this stuff, and don't really care if it takes a few extra weeks to get to goal).

    What about people like me who eat 200-300g of carbs a day xD Iv been hungry non stop lately, Cant really up my carbs more thn i have. Means a carb refeed for me wouldnt help much i imagine lol. Iv never done one in 110 pounds loss because i have always eaten high carb even with big deficits so i didnt see a point

    Can't remember if you're still losing or in maintenance now, but if you're still losing, diet break.

    im half and half...working on slowing my loss down i dont want to get to small, If i dont lose anymore i wont mind :D Struggling to get my mind in the mindset of eating more in general really doubt id be able to even eat near what i need to for a full maintenance. Im WAY to active i burn way to much. So im working on moving less and eating more at the same time. Im in a weird position lol.

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