Of refeeds and diet breaks
Replies
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JaydedMiss wrote: »Im attempting a refeed now. Im so lost xD Scary stuff
Lol. If attempting a traditional refeed, keep it simple: eat 4-5g of carbs per pound of body weight. Leave your protein and fat where it is.
Example: if you currently weigh 115lbs and your macros are something like 100p/45f/100c, then your refeed carb macros would range from 460 - 575g. If you can't hit that many carbs, then that's fine. That's just an example of the traditional refeed.
Otherwise, just bump up carbs (and maybe a little fat) until you are at maintenance calories.
EDIT: I just saw your edited post... if you're already at high carb, what's your protein currently at? If hunger is an issue, bumping up protein instead of carbs usually addresses it due to its satiety index.1 -
JaydedMiss wrote: »Im attempting a refeed now. Im so lost xD Scary stuff. I wanted to focus on spreading my meals out more, Since i struggle to need to eat pretty constantly now. But im guessing not worth trying to overlap eating more and spreading out. So ill just focus on eating more anyway. I already eat very high carb. Just want to fix this damn appetite LOL.
Iv known all along i needed a refeed but i ignored it and chugged on, 110 pounds down im now 125 pounds and starving non stop no matter what i do i cant stop thinking of food every hour xD No matter the macros. Whoops
Hopefully upping calories a bit will help (ill try my hardest to match fitbit but it worries me lol)
I really think you'd benefit more from a full diet break, Jayde. You've been at this a long time and it will really help to get your hormones in check and bring your appetite in line. Then maybe regular refeeds going forward.3 -
Thanks for the cliff notes @anubis609
I was slightly worried when I saw my notification bell with all those replies. I admit my instant reaction was 'damn it, who broke my thread and turned it into an argument???'. Once again, pleasantly surprised 4 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Thanks @Nony_Mouse!
I was on a deficit for 5 weeks at 50% carbs, then went on a 4 weeks maintenance (not by choice but because as you said, my performance was just tanking and going back to maintenance helped with hunger). Now, I'm back to a deficit again and upped to 60%. I really like the idea of a regular weekly refeed.
And yeah, I was looking for a quick answer
... sorry!
I'll forgive you this time @maybyn
Refeed is awesome, though be warned, if you're like me and tend towards higher fat (I'm generally around 70-80g, but can easily be as high 100g), keeping that down around 50g is hard work! Whether a 'by the book' refeed is necessary, or just having weekends at maintenance is enough is the question! One I'm pretty sure will be answered in Lyle's forthcoming book for us wimmin folks.
This thread is fabulous - thanks for posting the video, even if it's blocked on my work computer and I keep forgetting to fire it up at home. I have read through the links though. I've been very curious about the effect of maintenance weekends personally, as I've been eating at or above maintenance probably 1 day out of 3 or 4 since I started losing (usually but not always weekends), and at least 9.5 months and 32 pounds in have not felt any negative effects of being in an overall deficit. Certainly I'm not losing as fast as I could, but it's been steady enough that I'm quite happy and feel optimistic going into year two. After reading the link on https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html/ I feel extra bad for folks who are really impatient to lose/stressed out about water gains/worried a single day over goal will ruin everything.
Being in an overall deficit is what drives fat loss. Full stop. How you achieve a net deficit is a personal choice.
As a summary of 5 pages worth of info:
- As soon as you're in a deficit, hormonal changes happen for everyone, though there is a delayed response before you even feel it. Caveat: if you have a lot of weight to lose, you may not feel those effects until you're leaner.
- The concept of refeeds are to address downregulated hormonal responses, primarily leptin, which responds to levels of body fat, but carbs trigger an upregulation of leptin faster than fat can; due to the nature of delayed response, smaller refeed schedules probably aren't doing much; therefore, longer refeed schedules actually bumped up leptin levels as close to baseline as possible (it's never true baseline until you're no longer on a diet). Caveat: glycogen depletion allows for higher carb intake without actual fat gain and somewhat "tricks" fat cells into thinking there is permanent energy storage happening to signal leptin - it is not a free for all pass to eat all the things.
- As counterintuitive as it is: the leaner you are, the less dieting you need to do to continue fat loss with optimal hormone response; therefore, instead of extended periods of refeeds, more frequent, small refeed periods tend to work better.
- Diet breaks are different from refeeds. They are extended periods of maintenance feeding at your new lower weight to practice long-term weight loss habits. No one wants (or should want) to chronically diet forever or be on repetitive bulk/cut cycles. They also have the benefit of providing a psychological reprieve from the deleterious effects of dieting. Again, it's not a free pass to eat all the things, but you do get more wiggle room.
- If after the diet break period, you still need (or want) to lose more body fat, then continue another round of dieting. If you no longer need (or want) to lose body fat and you are at a satisfactory level of personal health, comfort, happiness, etc., congrats, you've won the dieting game and can continue maintaining *your new lower weight* AKA don't get fat again.
- Not discussed in this particular podcast, but the general advice among the fitness and nutrition science community is
1) don't get fat in the first place if you're lean,
2) if you are starting from being overweight, don't regain what you've lost,
3) the more overweight you were at your starting point, the easier it is to rebound AKA you gain fat faster than your naturally leaner counterparts - it sucks but it's true,
4) continually gaining and losing large amounts of body fat is more detrimental than losing it once and maintaining, and finally,
5) there is a range of optimal body fat % for the human body (extremely variable due to demographic), where having both, too much and too little, are harmful.
Just as an additional observation, it's good to be mindful of your intake whether you're tracking calories/macros/micros/etc., but don't get neurotic about it, which is why the concept of flexible dieting exists, such as following something like the 80/20 rule. If you are recovering from an ED or some other dysfunctional relationship with food, recognize your triggers and be aware if you are falling into old patterns and/or developing new ones that detract from the goal of an acceptable form of general health, mental and physical.
I did read all five pages before commenting (I realize I only mentioned the links, my apologies), and I certainly didn't mean my comment to sound like I wasn't trusting CICO. I really am enjoying reading the discussion - apparently I sounded a bit more like a moron chiming in there than I meant to! But I'm sure the summary would be quite awesome for newcomers to the thread, as there is a lot of information there.
ETA: The part I meant to respond to was the idea of diet breaks "providing a psychological reprieve from the deleterious effects of dieting" as you very nicely put it. I just meant to observe that from my single data point, eating at or above maintenance on a regular basis has seemed to negate those psychological effects.1 -
Lol no problem @Nony_Mouse .. I saw all the responses and thought maybe the refresher could come in handy.. though it seems like it'll quickly get lost too1
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JaydedMiss wrote: »Im attempting a refeed now. Im so lost xD Scary stuff
Lol. If attempting a traditional refeed, keep it simple: eat 4-5g of carbs per pound of body weight. Leave your protein and fat where it is.
Example: if you currently weigh 115lbs and your macros are something like 100p/45f/100c, then your refeed carb macros would range from 460 - 575g. If you can't hit that many carbs, then that's fine. That's just an example of the traditional refeed.
Otherwise, just bump up carbs (and maybe a little fat) until you are at maintenance calories.
EDIT: I just saw your edited post... if you're already at high carb, what's your protein currently at? If hunger is an issue, bumping up protein instead of carbs usually addresses it due to its satiety index.
ignore my high carb i guess 500-600 carbs sounds insane to me id have to eat soooo many calories lol i average 200-300- ivbeen hitting my macros dif foods and meal times and messing with them, still hungry. And cravign the worst foods (cookies and donuts and nachos yes please) i have to assume its just the big loss and the struggle to up my calories consistently.1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Interesting. This past cut I did a calorie cycle where I would bring the cals up a bit more on lifting days and especially on weekends. I don't know if I was doing it right because while most of the extra cals came from carbs, fats usually went up too. Not sure if he addresses this in the video as I only skimmed trough it briefly, but how do you know if you are doing refeeds correctly? Did it really matter? I only really felt drained at the end (of 16 weeks) at which point I just headed into maintenance. I didn't do any formal diet breaks during that time. I am not a competitor or anything, so I did not get that lean, but I would say lean enough that these high cal days were necessary!
You were intuitively doing pretty close to the right thing. IIRC, Lyle recommends raising carbs but keep fats the same or lower during the short refeed windows. But, you didn't hurt yourself any. You are pretty lean, so it was a smart thing to do.
The one thing I'd consider on your next cut is a 2 week full diet break every 6 to 8 weeks. It's help make your cut more efficient and probably have you feeling so drained at the end. 16 weeks is a long grind without a break both mentally and physiologically!
Yes definitely, while I made it through, looking back I probably would have benefit from a good diet break weeks before reaching that breaking point. I kept thinking "but what's the point, I'm so close to the end...." (however, I underestimated how far I really was from the end) now I know better and see the benefit. Each bulk/cut I learn a little bit more, do things a little differently, become a little more successful.
This was me too, I was aiming to lose a mighty 3.5 kg, but then I watched some of Lyle's podcasts specifically on women, and was like 'oh, actually...'. So my diet break was at Week 6. I definitely recommend checking some of those out. The ones with Abbey Orr are the most recent, so have his latest thoughts from the book he's writing (actually editing now!): https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/podcasts/epic-podcast-with-abbey-orr-of-first-base-fitness.html/
Oh and yeah, you're lean! Way more so than me.
Thanks for the link, I will check it out!1 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Thanks @Nony_Mouse!
I was on a deficit for 5 weeks at 50% carbs, then went on a 4 weeks maintenance (not by choice but because as you said, my performance was just tanking and going back to maintenance helped with hunger). Now, I'm back to a deficit again and upped to 60%. I really like the idea of a regular weekly refeed.
And yeah, I was looking for a quick answer... sorry!
I'll forgive you this time @maybyn
Refeed is awesome, though be warned, if you're like me and tend towards higher fat (I'm generally around 70-80g, but can easily be as high 100g), keeping that down around 50g is hard work! Whether a 'by the book' refeed is necessary, or just having weekends at maintenance is enough is the question! One I'm pretty sure will be answered in Lyle's forthcoming book for us wimmin folks.
This thread is fabulous - thanks for posting the video, even if it's blocked on my work computer and I keep forgetting to fire it up at home. I have read through the links though. I've been very curious about the effect of maintenance weekends personally, as I've been eating at or above maintenance probably 1 day out of 3 or 4 since I started losing (usually but not always weekends), and at least 9.5 months and 32 pounds in have not felt any negative effects of being in an overall deficit. Certainly I'm not losing as fast as I could, but it's been steady enough that I'm quite happy and feel optimistic going into year two. After reading the link on https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html/ I feel extra bad for folks who are really impatient to lose/stressed out about water gains/worried a single day over goal will ruin everything.
Being in an overall deficit is what drives fat loss. Full stop. How you achieve a net deficit is a personal choice.
As a summary of 5 pages worth of info:
- As soon as you're in a deficit, hormonal changes happen for everyone, though there is a delayed response before you even feel it. Caveat: if you have a lot of weight to lose, you may not feel those effects until you're leaner.
- The concept of refeeds are to address downregulated hormonal responses, primarily leptin, which responds to levels of body fat, but carbs trigger an upregulation of leptin faster than fat can; due to the nature of delayed response, smaller refeed schedules probably aren't doing much; therefore, longer refeed schedules actually bumped up leptin levels as close to baseline as possible (it's never true baseline until you're no longer on a diet). Caveat: glycogen depletion allows for higher carb intake without actual fat gain and somewhat "tricks" fat cells into thinking there is permanent energy storage happening to signal leptin - it is not a free for all pass to eat all the things.
- As counterintuitive as it is: the leaner you are, the less dieting you need to do to continue fat loss with optimal hormone response; therefore, instead of extended periods of refeeds, more frequent, small refeed periods tend to work better.
- Diet breaks are different from refeeds. They are extended periods of maintenance feeding at your new lower weight to practice long-term weight loss habits. No one wants (or should want) to chronically diet forever or be on repetitive bulk/cut cycles. They also have the benefit of providing a psychological reprieve from the deleterious effects of dieting. Again, it's not a free pass to eat all the things, but you do get more wiggle room.
- If after the diet break period, you still need (or want) to lose more body fat, then continue another round of dieting. If you no longer need (or want) to lose body fat and you are at a satisfactory level of personal health, comfort, happiness, etc., congrats, you've won the dieting game and can continue maintaining *your new lower weight* AKA don't get fat again.
- Not discussed in this particular podcast, but the general advice among the fitness and nutrition science community is
1) don't get fat in the first place if you're lean,
2) if you are starting from being overweight, don't regain what you've lost,
3) the more overweight you were at your starting point, the easier it is to rebound AKA you gain fat faster than your naturally leaner counterparts - it sucks but it's true,
4) continually gaining and losing large amounts of body fat is more detrimental than losing it once and maintaining, and finally,
5) there is a range of optimal body fat % for the human body (extremely variable due to demographic), where having both, too much and too little, are harmful.
Just as an additional observation, it's good to be mindful of your intake whether you're tracking calories/macros/micros/etc., but don't get neurotic about it, which is why the concept of flexible dieting exists, such as following something like the 80/20 rule. If you are recovering from an ED or some other dysfunctional relationship with food, recognize your triggers and be aware if you are falling into old patterns and/or developing new ones that detract from the goal of an acceptable form of general health, mental and physical.
I did read all five pages before commenting (I realize I only mentioned the links, my apologies), and I certainly didn't mean my comment to sound like I wasn't trusting CICO. I really am enjoying reading the discussion - apparently I sounded a bit more like a moron chiming in there than I meant to! But I'm sure the summary would be quite awesome for newcomers to the thread, as there is a lot of information there.
Not at all. As I discussed with @Nony_Mouse, I tend to generalize my response to everyone reading and the summary was just to bring any newcomers up to speed, with just some additional notes. I just addressed your specific example a bit curtly, so my apologies, but my intention was to say that you're doing fine with your strategy as long as you were creating an overall deficit, you will achieve your fat loss goal.1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Im attempting a refeed now. Im so lost xD Scary stuff. I wanted to focus on spreading my meals out more, Since i struggle to need to eat pretty constantly now. But im guessing not worth trying to overlap eating more and spreading out. So ill just focus on eating more anyway. I already eat very high carb. Just want to fix this damn appetite LOL.
Iv known all along i needed a refeed but i ignored it and chugged on, 110 pounds down im now 125 pounds and starving non stop no matter what i do i cant stop thinking of food every hour xD No matter the macros. Whoops Hopefully upping calories a bit will help (ill try my hardest to match fitbit but it worries me lol)
I really think you'd benefit more from a full diet break, Jayde. You've been at this a long time and it will really help to get your hormones in check and bring your appetite in line. Then maybe regular refeeds going forward.
1-2week refeed seems the same to me as a diet break maybe i got the terms wrong, But im going to be trying 2 weeks (the fact it scares me made my mind up on 2 weeks vs 1) of eating at maintenance according to my fitbit- Will be scary because say 1600ish on lazy days, But days i work i can burn upwards of 2500-3000...that sounds insane to someone who has averaged 1200-1700 for 18 months lol3 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Thanks for the cliff notes @anubis609
I was slightly worried when I saw my notification bell with all those replies. I admit my instant reaction was 'damn it, who broke my thread and turned it into an argument???'. Once again, pleasantly surprised
Sorry, that was my fault. >.<0 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Thanks @Nony_Mouse!
I was on a deficit for 5 weeks at 50% carbs, then went on a 4 weeks maintenance (not by choice but because as you said, my performance was just tanking and going back to maintenance helped with hunger). Now, I'm back to a deficit again and upped to 60%. I really like the idea of a regular weekly refeed.
And yeah, I was looking for a quick answer... sorry!
I'll forgive you this time @maybyn
Refeed is awesome, though be warned, if you're like me and tend towards higher fat (I'm generally around 70-80g, but can easily be as high 100g), keeping that down around 50g is hard work! Whether a 'by the book' refeed is necessary, or just having weekends at maintenance is enough is the question! One I'm pretty sure will be answered in Lyle's forthcoming book for us wimmin folks.
This thread is fabulous - thanks for posting the video, even if it's blocked on my work computer and I keep forgetting to fire it up at home. I have read through the links though. I've been very curious about the effect of maintenance weekends personally, as I've been eating at or above maintenance probably 1 day out of 3 or 4 since I started losing (usually but not always weekends), and at least 9.5 months and 32 pounds in have not felt any negative effects of being in an overall deficit. Certainly I'm not losing as fast as I could, but it's been steady enough that I'm quite happy and feel optimistic going into year two. After reading the link on https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html/ I feel extra bad for folks who are really impatient to lose/stressed out about water gains/worried a single day over goal will ruin everything.
Being in an overall deficit is what drives fat loss. Full stop. How you achieve a net deficit is a personal choice.
As a summary of 5 pages worth of info:
- As soon as you're in a deficit, hormonal changes happen for everyone, though there is a delayed response before you even feel it. Caveat: if you have a lot of weight to lose, you may not feel those effects until you're leaner.
- The concept of refeeds are to address downregulated hormonal responses, primarily leptin, which responds to levels of body fat, but carbs trigger an upregulation of leptin faster than fat can; due to the nature of delayed response, smaller refeed schedules probably aren't doing much; therefore, longer refeed schedules actually bumped up leptin levels as close to baseline as possible (it's never true baseline until you're no longer on a diet). Caveat: glycogen depletion allows for higher carb intake without actual fat gain and somewhat "tricks" fat cells into thinking there is permanent energy storage happening to signal leptin - it is not a free for all pass to eat all the things.
- As counterintuitive as it is: the leaner you are, the less dieting you need to do to continue fat loss with optimal hormone response; therefore, instead of extended periods of refeeds, more frequent, small refeed periods tend to work better.
- Diet breaks are different from refeeds. They are extended periods of maintenance feeding at your new lower weight to practice long-term weight loss habits. No one wants (or should want) to chronically diet forever or be on repetitive bulk/cut cycles. They also have the benefit of providing a psychological reprieve from the deleterious effects of dieting. Again, it's not a free pass to eat all the things, but you do get more wiggle room.
- If after the diet break period, you still need (or want) to lose more body fat, then continue another round of dieting. If you no longer need (or want) to lose body fat and you are at a satisfactory level of personal health, comfort, happiness, etc., congrats, you've won the dieting game and can continue maintaining *your new lower weight* AKA don't get fat again.
- Not discussed in this particular podcast, but the general advice among the fitness and nutrition science community is
1) don't get fat in the first place if you're lean,
2) if you are starting from being overweight, don't regain what you've lost,
3) the more overweight you were at your starting point, the easier it is to rebound AKA you gain fat faster than your naturally leaner counterparts - it sucks but it's true,
4) continually gaining and losing large amounts of body fat is more detrimental than losing it once and maintaining, and finally,
5) there is a range of optimal body fat % for the human body (extremely variable due to demographic), where having both, too much and too little, are harmful.
Just as an additional observation, it's good to be mindful of your intake whether you're tracking calories/macros/micros/etc., but don't get neurotic about it, which is why the concept of flexible dieting exists, such as following something like the 80/20 rule. If you are recovering from an ED or some other dysfunctional relationship with food, recognize your triggers and be aware if you are falling into old patterns and/or developing new ones that detract from the goal of an acceptable form of general health, mental and physical.
I did read all five pages before commenting (I realize I only mentioned the links, my apologies), and I certainly didn't mean my comment to sound like I wasn't trusting CICO. I really am enjoying reading the discussion - apparently I sounded a bit more like a moron chiming in there than I meant to! But I'm sure the summary would be quite awesome for newcomers to the thread, as there is a lot of information there.
Not at all. As I discussed with @Nony_Mouse, I tend to generalize my response to everyone reading and the summary was just to bring any newcomers up to speed, with just some additional notes. I just addressed your specific example a bit curtly, so my apologies, but my intention was to say that you're doing fine with your strategy as long as you were creating an overall deficit, you will achieve your fat loss goal.
It's all good. I am very confidant that my strategy is working at this point, I'm just interested in the idea of diet breaks as "a psychological reprieve from the deleterious effects of dieting" as you very nicely put it. I just meant to observe that from my single data point, eating at or above maintenance on a regular basis has seemed to negate those psychological effects. I have no idea if that could possibly be extrapolated to anyone else, of course, but it seemed to be what the comment I responded to was implying.0 -
JaydedMiss wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Im attempting a refeed now. Im so lost xD Scary stuff. I wanted to focus on spreading my meals out more, Since i struggle to need to eat pretty constantly now. But im guessing not worth trying to overlap eating more and spreading out. So ill just focus on eating more anyway. I already eat very high carb. Just want to fix this damn appetite LOL.
Iv known all along i needed a refeed but i ignored it and chugged on, 110 pounds down im now 125 pounds and starving non stop no matter what i do i cant stop thinking of food every hour xD No matter the macros. Whoops Hopefully upping calories a bit will help (ill try my hardest to match fitbit but it worries me lol)
I really think you'd benefit more from a full diet break, Jayde. You've been at this a long time and it will really help to get your hormones in check and bring your appetite in line. Then maybe regular refeeds going forward.
1-2week refeed seems the same to me as a diet break maybe i got the terms wrong, But im going to be trying 2 weeks (the fact it scares me made my mind up on 2 weeks vs 1) of eating at maintenance according to my fitbit- Will be scary because say 1600ish on lazy days, But days i work i can burn upwards of 2500-3000...that sounds insane to someone who has averaged 1200-1700 for 18 months lol
Yep, refeed is short (2 days), diet break is 10-14 days. Since the 'rules' for diet break are a little different, in that you don't need to keep fat down (@anubis609, can you explain that one to us? I know I read about it, but my brain hasn't held it and now I can't remember which article it was in!). So, on those higher burn days, eat the doughnut. 3 -
JaydedMiss wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Im attempting a refeed now. Im so lost xD Scary stuff. I wanted to focus on spreading my meals out more, Since i struggle to need to eat pretty constantly now. But im guessing not worth trying to overlap eating more and spreading out. So ill just focus on eating more anyway. I already eat very high carb. Just want to fix this damn appetite LOL.
Iv known all along i needed a refeed but i ignored it and chugged on, 110 pounds down im now 125 pounds and starving non stop no matter what i do i cant stop thinking of food every hour xD No matter the macros. Whoops Hopefully upping calories a bit will help (ill try my hardest to match fitbit but it worries me lol)
I really think you'd benefit more from a full diet break, Jayde. You've been at this a long time and it will really help to get your hormones in check and bring your appetite in line. Then maybe regular refeeds going forward.
1-2week refeed seems the same to me as a diet break maybe i got the terms wrong, But im going to be trying 2 weeks (the fact it scares me made my mind up on 2 weeks vs 1) of eating at maintenance according to my fitbit- Will be scary because say 1600ish on lazy days, But days i work i can burn upwards of 2500-3000...that sounds insane to someone who has averaged 1200-1700 for 18 months lol
To address the cravings/hunger issue, I'm still gonna suggest bumping up protein, however if your TDEE is considerably on the high end, then increasing overall calories (with protein) might help.
And to quote my own summary to differentiate between refeeds and diet breaks:
- The concept of refeeds are to address downregulated hormonal responses, primarily leptin, which responds to levels of body fat, but carbs trigger an upregulation of leptin faster than fat can; due to the nature of delayed response, smaller refeed schedules probably aren't doing much; therefore, longer refeed schedules actually bumped up leptin levels as close to baseline as possible (it's never true baseline until you're no longer on a diet). Caveat: glycogen depletion allows for higher carb intake without actual fat gain and somewhat "tricks" fat cells into thinking there is permanent energy storage happening to signal leptin - it is not a free for all pass to eat all the things.
- As counterintuitive as it is: the leaner you are, the less dieting you need to do to continue fat loss with optimal hormone response; therefore, instead of extended periods of refeeds, more frequent, small refeed periods tend to work better.
- Diet breaks are different from refeeds. They are extended periods of maintenance feeding at your new lower weight to practice long-term weight loss habits. No one wants (or should want) to chronically diet forever or be on repetitive bulk/cut cycles. They also have the benefit of providing a psychological reprieve from the deleterious effects of dieting. Again, it's not a free pass to eat all the things, but you do get more wiggle room.0 -
MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Thanks for the cliff notes @anubis609
I was slightly worried when I saw my notification bell with all those replies. I admit my instant reaction was 'damn it, who broke my thread and turned it into an argument???'. Once again, pleasantly surprised
Sorry, that was my fault. >.<
Haha, no, it's not broken at all! Good, healthy discussion and learning. Yay!!1 -
JaydedMiss wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Im attempting a refeed now. Im so lost xD Scary stuff. I wanted to focus on spreading my meals out more, Since i struggle to need to eat pretty constantly now. But im guessing not worth trying to overlap eating more and spreading out. So ill just focus on eating more anyway. I already eat very high carb. Just want to fix this damn appetite LOL.
Iv known all along i needed a refeed but i ignored it and chugged on, 110 pounds down im now 125 pounds and starving non stop no matter what i do i cant stop thinking of food every hour xD No matter the macros. Whoops Hopefully upping calories a bit will help (ill try my hardest to match fitbit but it worries me lol)
I really think you'd benefit more from a full diet break, Jayde. You've been at this a long time and it will really help to get your hormones in check and bring your appetite in line. Then maybe regular refeeds going forward.
1-2week refeed seems the same to me as a diet break maybe i got the terms wrong, But im going to be trying 2 weeks (the fact it scares me made my mind up on 2 weeks vs 1) of eating at maintenance according to my fitbit- Will be scary because say 1600ish on lazy days, But days i work i can burn upwards of 2500-3000...that sounds insane to someone who has averaged 1200-1700 for 18 months lol
Jayde, have you never compared the deficit you're creating with Fitbit vs. your results?
That's how people know whether they can trust the burn they're getting from a Fitbit or whether they need to calibrate it to make it agree with real world results or not.
How many calories are you currently eating? What is your average Fitbit burn? Are you still losing weight? You need to sort this out, and you need to not be afraid to gain a little water weight while you do, or else you're going to slip into some disordered territory here.3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Im attempting a refeed now. Im so lost xD Scary stuff. I wanted to focus on spreading my meals out more, Since i struggle to need to eat pretty constantly now. But im guessing not worth trying to overlap eating more and spreading out. So ill just focus on eating more anyway. I already eat very high carb. Just want to fix this damn appetite LOL.
Iv known all along i needed a refeed but i ignored it and chugged on, 110 pounds down im now 125 pounds and starving non stop no matter what i do i cant stop thinking of food every hour xD No matter the macros. Whoops Hopefully upping calories a bit will help (ill try my hardest to match fitbit but it worries me lol)
I really think you'd benefit more from a full diet break, Jayde. You've been at this a long time and it will really help to get your hormones in check and bring your appetite in line. Then maybe regular refeeds going forward.
1-2week refeed seems the same to me as a diet break maybe i got the terms wrong, But im going to be trying 2 weeks (the fact it scares me made my mind up on 2 weeks vs 1) of eating at maintenance according to my fitbit- Will be scary because say 1600ish on lazy days, But days i work i can burn upwards of 2500-3000...that sounds insane to someone who has averaged 1200-1700 for 18 months lol
Jayde, have you never compared the deficit you're creating with Fitbit vs. your results?
That's how people know whether they can trust the burn they're getting from a Fitbit or whether they need to calibrate it to make it agree with real world results or not.
How many calories are you currently eating? What is your average Fitbit burn? Are you still losing weight? You need to sort this out, and you need to not be afraid to gain a little water weight while you do, or else you're going to slip into some disordered territory here.
havent in ages iv ben purposely focused on trying to slow my loss for months now. Since june. Its been dificult for me. Note my issues now. I havent been able to trust the numbers, Id like to begin to and fix the hormonal damage iv undoubtably done through both original deficit and my stupid mindset once thinner. I did the math before and got 2200 but that was when i was bigger- Forget how much bigger honestly
edited to add- dont worry im not in disordered territory yet- im just on the brink of it. I see it in myself and am working to fix it minorly confused and anxious more thn disordered at this point 5 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Im attempting a refeed now. Im so lost xD Scary stuff. I wanted to focus on spreading my meals out more, Since i struggle to need to eat pretty constantly now. But im guessing not worth trying to overlap eating more and spreading out. So ill just focus on eating more anyway. I already eat very high carb. Just want to fix this damn appetite LOL.
Iv known all along i needed a refeed but i ignored it and chugged on, 110 pounds down im now 125 pounds and starving non stop no matter what i do i cant stop thinking of food every hour xD No matter the macros. Whoops Hopefully upping calories a bit will help (ill try my hardest to match fitbit but it worries me lol)
I really think you'd benefit more from a full diet break, Jayde. You've been at this a long time and it will really help to get your hormones in check and bring your appetite in line. Then maybe regular refeeds going forward.
1-2week refeed seems the same to me as a diet break maybe i got the terms wrong, But im going to be trying 2 weeks (the fact it scares me made my mind up on 2 weeks vs 1) of eating at maintenance according to my fitbit- Will be scary because say 1600ish on lazy days, But days i work i can burn upwards of 2500-3000...that sounds insane to someone who has averaged 1200-1700 for 18 months lol
Yep, refeed is short (2 days), diet break is 10-14 days. Since the 'rules' for diet break are a little different, in that you don't need to keep fat down (@anubis609, can you explain that one to us? I know I read about it, but my brain hasn't held it and now I can't remember which article it was in!). So, on those higher burn days, eat the doughnut.
Lyle's article on the formal full diet break: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-full-diet-break.html/
@JaydedMiss if you are actually lean enough to actually be on long-term maintenance without any need to lose more body fat (you're more than 6 months out from a show), then you can use the 2 week diet break to get a sense of where true maintenance calories are for you - roughly 10% above your current intake, but keep adjusting according to visual and scale reference as the weeks go by, and if you wanted to extend your diet break beyond 2 weeks, then I say go for it.0 -
Not lean (169lbs), still eating in deficit. Menopausal. Big Lyle McDonald fan. Been waiting patiently for his next book. Have been losing since the end of May this year. 26lbs down so far. Took a two week break from deficit in July/August, which was 12 weeks in, no logging. Upped carbs pretty drastically (average usually around 180g per day. So I did not really have to increase carbs that much). Felt relaxed, put on some water weight, which I lost in a couple of weeks after returning. Got back into the swing of logging and eating at a deficit no problems. Losing a pound a week steadily at the moment. I am feeling pretty hungry this week, but I put that down to strongman training, which is pretty intense. I have never bulked intentionally (only overeaten and given up the gym routine) or eaten at a planned surplus (whilst logging) and have only ever weight trained in a deficit. Am planning my next diet break in 2 weeks (11 weeks in deficit). Hoping to be around 167lbs when I start my hypertrophy programme (adding in planned surplus) post maintenance fortnight. This was the weight I was 4 years ago when I did my first sprint tri and managed to get pretty strong again.
The reason I find his stuff helpful, is because I come from a background of restriction (eating disorders as a teen) and have done the whole restrict, binge, enter stupid downward cycle. This flexible way of looking at food and using food as part of the whole process, is what has helped me over the last 7 years or so to come to terms with the psychological stuff. I know I am not the only one. Thanks for posting this. When I have recommended his stuff before, it seemed to fall on deaf ears or only be acknowledged by those who already read his stuff.9 -
JaydedMiss wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Im attempting a refeed now. Im so lost xD Scary stuff. I wanted to focus on spreading my meals out more, Since i struggle to need to eat pretty constantly now. But im guessing not worth trying to overlap eating more and spreading out. So ill just focus on eating more anyway. I already eat very high carb. Just want to fix this damn appetite LOL.
Iv known all along i needed a refeed but i ignored it and chugged on, 110 pounds down im now 125 pounds and starving non stop no matter what i do i cant stop thinking of food every hour xD No matter the macros. Whoops Hopefully upping calories a bit will help (ill try my hardest to match fitbit but it worries me lol)
I really think you'd benefit more from a full diet break, Jayde. You've been at this a long time and it will really help to get your hormones in check and bring your appetite in line. Then maybe regular refeeds going forward.
1-2week refeed seems the same to me as a diet break maybe i got the terms wrong, But im going to be trying 2 weeks (the fact it scares me made my mind up on 2 weeks vs 1) of eating at maintenance according to my fitbit- Will be scary because say 1600ish on lazy days, But days i work i can burn upwards of 2500-3000...that sounds insane to someone who has averaged 1200-1700 for 18 months lol
Jayde, have you never compared the deficit you're creating with Fitbit vs. your results?
That's how people know whether they can trust the burn they're getting from a Fitbit or whether they need to calibrate it to make it agree with real world results or not.
How many calories are you currently eating? What is your average Fitbit burn? Are you still losing weight? You need to sort this out, and you need to not be afraid to gain a little water weight while you do, or else you're going to slip into some disordered territory here.
havent in ages iv ben purposely focused on trying to slow my loss for months now. Since june. Its been dificult for me. Note my issues now. I havent been able to trust the numbers, Id like to begin to and fix the hormonal damage iv undoubtably done through both original deficit and my stupid mindset once thinner. I did the math before and got 2200 but that was when i was bigger- Forget how much bigger honestly
edited to add- dont worry im not in disordered territory yet- im just on the brink of it. I see it in myself and am working to fix it minorly confused and anxious more thn disordered at this point
Well to do the refeeds properly or to do the diet break, you need to do the math.
Once you do the math, you'll have an idea if you can trust your Fitbit or not. If it's not accurate, there are things you can do to calibrate it. For me, it was as simple as saying I wore it on my dominant hand, for example.
But seriously, this is part of what you need to do in order to do all of this properly. If you try to refeed or take a diet break and you're not really eating true maintenance calories (and here's a hint, when you eat true maintenance calories, you should put on weight from replenishing glycogen and having more food in your system, but notice that this isn't fat ... it stays on for a while and sorts itself out eventually) and you won't be getting the full effect of the diet break.4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Im attempting a refeed now. Im so lost xD Scary stuff. I wanted to focus on spreading my meals out more, Since i struggle to need to eat pretty constantly now. But im guessing not worth trying to overlap eating more and spreading out. So ill just focus on eating more anyway. I already eat very high carb. Just want to fix this damn appetite LOL.
Iv known all along i needed a refeed but i ignored it and chugged on, 110 pounds down im now 125 pounds and starving non stop no matter what i do i cant stop thinking of food every hour xD No matter the macros. Whoops Hopefully upping calories a bit will help (ill try my hardest to match fitbit but it worries me lol)
I really think you'd benefit more from a full diet break, Jayde. You've been at this a long time and it will really help to get your hormones in check and bring your appetite in line. Then maybe regular refeeds going forward.
1-2week refeed seems the same to me as a diet break maybe i got the terms wrong, But im going to be trying 2 weeks (the fact it scares me made my mind up on 2 weeks vs 1) of eating at maintenance according to my fitbit- Will be scary because say 1600ish on lazy days, But days i work i can burn upwards of 2500-3000...that sounds insane to someone who has averaged 1200-1700 for 18 months lol
Jayde, have you never compared the deficit you're creating with Fitbit vs. your results?
That's how people know whether they can trust the burn they're getting from a Fitbit or whether they need to calibrate it to make it agree with real world results or not.
How many calories are you currently eating? What is your average Fitbit burn? Are you still losing weight? You need to sort this out, and you need to not be afraid to gain a little water weight while you do, or else you're going to slip into some disordered territory here.
havent in ages iv ben purposely focused on trying to slow my loss for months now. Since june. Its been dificult for me. Note my issues now. I havent been able to trust the numbers, Id like to begin to and fix the hormonal damage iv undoubtably done through both original deficit and my stupid mindset once thinner. I did the math before and got 2200 but that was when i was bigger- Forget how much bigger honestly
edited to add- dont worry im not in disordered territory yet- im just on the brink of it. I see it in myself and am working to fix it minorly confused and anxious more thn disordered at this point
Well to do the refeeds properly or to do the diet break, you need to do the math.
Once you do the math, you'll have an idea if you can trust your Fitbit or not. If it's not accurate, there are things you can do to calibrate it. For me, it was as simple as saying I wore it on my dominant hand, for example.
But seriously, this is part of what you need to do in order to do all of this properly. If you try to refeed or take a diet break and you're not really eating true maintenance calories (and here's a hint, when you eat true maintenance calories, you should put on weight from replenishing glycogen and having more food in your system, but notice that this isn't fat ... it stays on for a while and sorts itself out eventually) and you won't be getting the full effect of the diet break.
I know your trying to be helpful and your one of my favorite people on here but telling me i wont be gettign the full effect is exactly why iv put it off this long- why bother if im not even going to get it right XD my goal is to just eat more then im not going to fight anyone on it
Eatign what fitbit gives me is a step away from disordered thinking...i was trying not to attatch panic about dooing it wrong to it >.<
Im unable to overeat so my fitbit is all i have to go off. So thats what im going to do.
If i had to guess id say my fitbit says i burn less thn i really do on work days. Most my steps i take carrying very heavy things. It doesnt account for that. Its as good baseline as i have1 -
JaydedMiss wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Im attempting a refeed now. Im so lost xD Scary stuff. I wanted to focus on spreading my meals out more, Since i struggle to need to eat pretty constantly now. But im guessing not worth trying to overlap eating more and spreading out. So ill just focus on eating more anyway. I already eat very high carb. Just want to fix this damn appetite LOL.
Iv known all along i needed a refeed but i ignored it and chugged on, 110 pounds down im now 125 pounds and starving non stop no matter what i do i cant stop thinking of food every hour xD No matter the macros. Whoops Hopefully upping calories a bit will help (ill try my hardest to match fitbit but it worries me lol)
I really think you'd benefit more from a full diet break, Jayde. You've been at this a long time and it will really help to get your hormones in check and bring your appetite in line. Then maybe regular refeeds going forward.
1-2week refeed seems the same to me as a diet break maybe i got the terms wrong, But im going to be trying 2 weeks (the fact it scares me made my mind up on 2 weeks vs 1) of eating at maintenance according to my fitbit- Will be scary because say 1600ish on lazy days, But days i work i can burn upwards of 2500-3000...that sounds insane to someone who has averaged 1200-1700 for 18 months lol
Jayde, have you never compared the deficit you're creating with Fitbit vs. your results?
That's how people know whether they can trust the burn they're getting from a Fitbit or whether they need to calibrate it to make it agree with real world results or not.
How many calories are you currently eating? What is your average Fitbit burn? Are you still losing weight? You need to sort this out, and you need to not be afraid to gain a little water weight while you do, or else you're going to slip into some disordered territory here.
havent in ages iv ben purposely focused on trying to slow my loss for months now. Since june. Its been dificult for me. Note my issues now. I havent been able to trust the numbers, Id like to begin to and fix the hormonal damage iv undoubtably done through both original deficit and my stupid mindset once thinner. I did the math before and got 2200 but that was when i was bigger- Forget how much bigger honestly
edited to add- dont worry im not in disordered territory yet- im just on the brink of it. I see it in myself and am working to fix it minorly confused and anxious more thn disordered at this point
Well to do the refeeds properly or to do the diet break, you need to do the math.
Once you do the math, you'll have an idea if you can trust your Fitbit or not. If it's not accurate, there are things you can do to calibrate it. For me, it was as simple as saying I wore it on my dominant hand, for example.
But seriously, this is part of what you need to do in order to do all of this properly. If you try to refeed or take a diet break and you're not really eating true maintenance calories (and here's a hint, when you eat true maintenance calories, you should put on weight from replenishing glycogen and having more food in your system, but notice that this isn't fat ... it stays on for a while and sorts itself out eventually) and you won't be getting the full effect of the diet break.
I know your trying to be helpful and your one of my favorite people on here but telling me i wont be gettign the full effect is exactly why iv put it off this long- why bother if im not even going to get it right XD my goal is to just eat more then im not going to fight anyone on it Eatign what fitbit gives me is a step away from disordered thinking...i was trying not to attatch panic about dooing it wrong to it >.<
I think trusting your Fitbit is a good place to start. Mine seems to be spot on accurate. If your weight goes up more than expected, or down more than expected (and it can go down, because you may release a bunch of water you've been holding onto because of raised cortisol), then you know you need to adjust.1 -
Just as an additional observation, it's good to be mindful of your intake whether you're tracking calories/macros/micros/etc., but don't get neurotic about it, which is why the concept of flexible dieting exists, such as following something like the 80/20 rule. If you are recovering from an ED or some other dysfunctional relationship with food, recognize your triggers and be aware if you are falling into old patterns and/or developing new ones that detract from the goal of an acceptable form of general health, mental and physical.
Loved your whole post, but this is the most poignant for me...thanks for your insightful replies anubis609!
4 -
JaydedMiss wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Im attempting a refeed now. Im so lost xD Scary stuff. I wanted to focus on spreading my meals out more, Since i struggle to need to eat pretty constantly now. But im guessing not worth trying to overlap eating more and spreading out. So ill just focus on eating more anyway. I already eat very high carb. Just want to fix this damn appetite LOL.
Iv known all along i needed a refeed but i ignored it and chugged on, 110 pounds down im now 125 pounds and starving non stop no matter what i do i cant stop thinking of food every hour xD No matter the macros. Whoops Hopefully upping calories a bit will help (ill try my hardest to match fitbit but it worries me lol)
I really think you'd benefit more from a full diet break, Jayde. You've been at this a long time and it will really help to get your hormones in check and bring your appetite in line. Then maybe regular refeeds going forward.
1-2week refeed seems the same to me as a diet break maybe i got the terms wrong, But im going to be trying 2 weeks (the fact it scares me made my mind up on 2 weeks vs 1) of eating at maintenance according to my fitbit- Will be scary because say 1600ish on lazy days, But days i work i can burn upwards of 2500-3000...that sounds insane to someone who has averaged 1200-1700 for 18 months lol
Jayde, have you never compared the deficit you're creating with Fitbit vs. your results?
That's how people know whether they can trust the burn they're getting from a Fitbit or whether they need to calibrate it to make it agree with real world results or not.
How many calories are you currently eating? What is your average Fitbit burn? Are you still losing weight? You need to sort this out, and you need to not be afraid to gain a little water weight while you do, or else you're going to slip into some disordered territory here.
havent in ages iv ben purposely focused on trying to slow my loss for months now. Since june. Its been dificult for me. Note my issues now. I havent been able to trust the numbers, Id like to begin to and fix the hormonal damage iv undoubtably done through both original deficit and my stupid mindset once thinner. I did the math before and got 2200 but that was when i was bigger- Forget how much bigger honestly
edited to add- dont worry im not in disordered territory yet- im just on the brink of it. I see it in myself and am working to fix it minorly confused and anxious more thn disordered at this point
Well to do the refeeds properly or to do the diet break, you need to do the math.
Once you do the math, you'll have an idea if you can trust your Fitbit or not. If it's not accurate, there are things you can do to calibrate it. For me, it was as simple as saying I wore it on my dominant hand, for example.
But seriously, this is part of what you need to do in order to do all of this properly. If you try to refeed or take a diet break and you're not really eating true maintenance calories (and here's a hint, when you eat true maintenance calories, you should put on weight from replenishing glycogen and having more food in your system, but notice that this isn't fat ... it stays on for a while and sorts itself out eventually) and you won't be getting the full effect of the diet break.
I know your trying to be helpful and your one of my favorite people on here but telling me i wont be gettign the full effect is exactly why iv put it off this long- why bother if im not even going to get it right XD my goal is to just eat more then im not going to fight anyone on it Eatign what fitbit gives me is a step away from disordered thinking...i was trying not to attatch panic about dooing it wrong to it >.<
Im unable to overeat so my fitbit is all i have to go off. So thats what im going to do.
If i had to guess id say my fitbit says i burn less thn i really do on work days. Most my steps i take carrying very heavy things. It doesnt account for that. Its as good baseline as i have
Sorry, I didn't mean to come across that way.
Trusting your Fitbit is a good place to start! It sounds like you already have a gut feeling about it anyway, so that's a plus.
Nony speaks the truth. Having listened to Lyle, she's covered what he'd have said about it.
Expect some action on the scale, and adjust accordingly. The important thing is to try to relax, otherwise... cortisol.3 -
Lyle's article on the formal full diet break: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-full-diet-break.html/
Haha, I've read that thing inside out and backwards @anubis609. I understand the rationale behind the carb increase for both diet break and refeed, I was asking more specifically if you knew the rationale behind keeping fats lower on the refeed. It may have been as simple (for women, cos lower TDEE) as having more room for carbs, but I think there was something more sciencey around leptin uptake in that shorter space of time. No matter, I'm sure I will stumble across it again (I really should start taking notes, so I know where I've seen these things!).
I thought I'd share (again, but in one place) what happened with me weight-wise on both diet break and refeed (and obviously this is an N=1, ymmv), both to show the variations, but also b/c I'm kind of going 'huh?':
Diet break
Started at 64.7 kg, weight went up a tiny bit after the first day, then a bit more, then dropped back and stayed pretty much the same until almost the end, then I had a big spike from ovulation bloat*. A couple of days out from diet break and having shed the boat load of bloat, I was back to where I started. Six days of deficit between diet break and refeed, in which I dropped another 1/2 kg.
Refeed
After first day of refeed I was up 400g (carby goodness), next day (yesterday), I was back to where I started. Today I've dropped another 300g, to a new low for this current weight loss. So that's 800g (1.76 lbs) scale loss in a week, or 9 days if we go from end of diet break and ignore the ovulation bloat. Total deficit for those nine days was 2934 cals. That's barely, if even, 400g worth, let alone 800g. Hence the 'huh?'. But, weight loss is not linear, blah, blah, maybe some water weight drop from lowered cortisol, also currently luteal phase, so maybe burning more cals with that. Anyway, not complaining, just intrigued, and it's kind of hilarious after feeling like I was going around in circles prior to the diet break (though a lot of that was water weight masking progress).
*On the ovulation bloat thing, something I picked up from one of the podcast interviews with Lyle on women and weight loss, apparently we are more sensitive to sodium around ovulation, so will retain more water even with the same sodium level as we always eat. I am totally going to test this next month, not because of the weight effect, but because that bloat is fricking uncomfortable, and if I can have my jeans only not fit comfortably at PMS instead of both PMS and ovulation, then I'm all for it.
4 -
nexangelus wrote: »Just as an additional observation, it's good to be mindful of your intake whether you're tracking calories/macros/micros/etc., but don't get neurotic about it, which is why the concept of flexible dieting exists, such as following something like the 80/20 rule. If you are recovering from an ED or some other dysfunctional relationship with food, recognize your triggers and be aware if you are falling into old patterns and/or developing new ones that detract from the goal of an acceptable form of general health, mental and physical.
Loved your whole post, but this is the most poignant for me...thanks for your insightful replies anubis609!
Thanks @nexangelus! I read your post, so I'm sure you've found flexible dieting to be helpful also. I've got my own set of dysmorphia and disorders as well, so I thought it might be important to at least throw it out there. Psychological health is as important as physiological health, and since one can play into the other, I like to make sure there's a distinct connection between why dieting strategies are designed the way they are, and why Lyle specifically understands this to be the foundation for maintaining whatever sanity we have left
4 -
This thread is full of information!
So... I watched the whole video (in fact, I can credit this thread with me having the first time EVER listening to a podcast - I had to google "how to listen to a podcast on iphone" hahaha).
I get mostly what he's saying but one thing stood out to me. Lyle's main focus (it seems) is geared towards those individuals who are either in or going into competitive/non-competitive bodybuilding or weightlifting or are keen to go down that path (even for the little women he keeps mentioning).
So how does all these relate to endurance sports athletes?
Also, when you all talk about "lean", how lean is lean? I've seen a number of guidelines on BF% online and I know Lyle talks about BF% and refeed structures, what kind of leanness should we be focusing on?
FYI, I follow Matt Fitzgerald's racing weight formula for knowing what weight and BF I should be.
2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Lyle's article on the formal full diet break: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-full-diet-break.html/
Haha, I've read that thing inside out and backwards @anubis609. I understand the rationale behind the carb increase for both diet break and refeed, I was asking more specifically if you knew the rationale behind keeping fats lower on the refeed. It may have been as simple (for women, cos lower TDEE) as having more room for carbs, but I think there was something more sciencey around leptin uptake in that shorter space of time. No matter, I'm sure I will stumble across it again (I really should start taking notes, so I know where I've seen these things!).
...
The reasoning for keeping dietary fat low on a short carbohydrate refeed is that de novo lipogenesis is a very non-preferred pathway during severe-to-moderate glycogen depletion. The converse is not true in that fat overfeeding in such a state will preferably follow pathways to body fat gain. Here is one paper:
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/48/2/240.short
There are others with higher n studies, but I don't have time for digging right now. It is called "carbohydrate overfeeding" in the scientific literature if you want to look for them. A short 2-day refeed is not going to do much to repair an unfavorable hormonal profile, hence the utility of a longer diet break. You will restore glycogen after 1-3 days at maintenance (assuming you are not low-carbing), so there is no immediate value in keeping dietary fat low after that point.2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Lyle's article on the formal full diet break: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-full-diet-break.html/
Haha, I've read that thing inside out and backwards @anubis609. I understand the rationale behind the carb increase for both diet break and refeed, I was asking more specifically if you knew the rationale behind keeping fats lower on the refeed. It may have been as simple (for women, cos lower TDEE) as having more room for carbs, but I think there was something more sciencey around leptin uptake in that shorter space of time. No matter, I'm sure I will stumble across it again (I really should start taking notes, so I know where I've seen these things!).
I thought I'd share (again, but in one place) what happened with me weight-wise on both diet break and refeed (and obviously this is an N=1, ymmv), both to show the variations, but also b/c I'm kind of going 'huh?':
Diet break
Started at 64.7 kg, weight went up a tiny bit after the first day, then a bit more, then dropped back and stayed pretty much the same until almost the end, then I had a big spike from ovulation bloat*. A couple of days out from diet break and having shed the boat load of bloat, I was back to where I started. Six days of deficit between diet break and refeed, in which I dropped another 1/2 kg. After first day of refeed I was up 400g (carby goodness), next day (yesterday), I was back to where I started. Today I've dropped another 300g, to a new low for this current weight loss. So that's 800g (1.76 lbs) scale loss in a week, or 9 days if we go from end of diet break and ignore the ovulation bloat. Total deficit for those nine days was 2934 cals. That's barely, if even, 400g worth, let alone 800g. Hence the 'huh?'. But, weight loss is not linear, blah, blah, maybe some water weight drop from lowered cortisol, also currently luteal phase, so maybe burning more cals with that. Anyway, not complaining, just intrigued, and it's kind of hilarious after feeling like I was going around in circles prior to the diet break (though a lot of that was water weight masking progress).
*On the ovulation bloat thing, something I picked up from one of the podcast interviews with Lyle on women and weight loss, apparently we are more sensitive to sodium around ovulation, so will retain more water even with the same sodium level as we always eat. I am totally going to test this next month, not because of the weight effect, but because that bloat is fricking uncomfortable, and if I can have my jeans only not fit comfortably at PMS instead of both PMS and ovulation, then I'm all for it.
@Nony_Mouse - Ah, I completely misunderstood the premise of what you were asking lol. The reason why fat isn't increased during a refeed is because of substrate oxidation. Carbs and fat have an inverse relationship, so if you're eating more carbs, your body will preferentially use carbs for fuel (and inversely store more dietary fat). On the opposite end of the spectrum, if you eat less carbs, your body will preferentially release and utilize fat for fuel - the premise of a low carb/ketogenic diet. Note for anyone that may get the obscure message that "use for fuel" does not mean actual burning to produce waste for loss - you still need to be in a caloric deficit to produce an actual net loss of energy stores.
ETA: @richln hit it right on the head, much more in-depth than I was able to. Thanks.
Regarding the phasic cycles of menstruation, as much as I've read his articles on female physiology, I'm barely competent enough in the subject to give the general advice of "assuming you're on a regular cycle, compare your monthly weight averages across a week-to-week basis." But it would make sense that during ovulation the body is preparing to create a human, so energy needs are going to prepare for storage and retention.. if fertilization doesn't occur, it dumps out, so to speak, and it starts over. I don't have enough experience with coaching and training with women to track along with them, so all of my N=1 experience comes from the side of being a significant other and just dealing with the emotional aspect lol6 -
This thread is full of information!
So... I watched the whole video (in fact, I can credit this thread with me having the first time EVER listening to a podcast - I had to google "how to listen to a podcast on iphone" hahaha).
I get mostly what he's saying but one thing stood out to me. Lyle's main focus (it seems) is geared towards those individuals who are either in or going into competitive/non-competitive bodybuilding or weightlifting or are keen to go down that path (even for the little women he keeps mentioning).
So how does all these relate to endurance sports athletes?
Also, when you all talk about "lean", how lean is lean? I've seen a number of guidelines on BF% online and I know Lyle talks about BF% and refeed structures, what kind of leanness should we be focusing on?
FYI, I follow Matt Fitzgerald's racing weight formula for knowing what weight and BF I should be.
In the context of body recomposition, people are going to be following standard cycles of a deficit or surplus to lose or gain mass, respectively. Physique athletes are used as the general example since they've inconsequentially been the primary image of what pushing the human body's limit to retain/build lean muscle mass while shedding subcutaneous fat. His primary focus being women is relative to his women's book that is currently being edited for publishing, though it's also because women are predominantly more prone to dieting and disrupting hormone regulation - even if it's true for all people, amenorrhea is a symptom that requires troubleshooting the diet.
Regardless of the sport, lean body mass vs fat mass is going to play a part in how well the body accommodates nutrient partitioning. Generally the leaner you are, the better your body will be at partitioning incoming food to their appropriate places. What defines lean is "subjectively objective" in the sense that you don't need to be completely shredded, but you shouldn't be overfat either. I can't think of anything off hand to counter the thought of refeeding, but endurance sport athletes are arguably much more glycolytic anyway depending on the pace of the run, but underfeeding and overtraining can completely affect performance and hormone response, so Lyle's suggested refeed schedule can still apply to address that issue.4 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »JaydedMiss wrote: »Im attempting a refeed now. Im so lost xD Scary stuff. I wanted to focus on spreading my meals out more, Since i struggle to need to eat pretty constantly now. But im guessing not worth trying to overlap eating more and spreading out. So ill just focus on eating more anyway. I already eat very high carb. Just want to fix this damn appetite LOL.
Iv known all along i needed a refeed but i ignored it and chugged on, 110 pounds down im now 125 pounds and starving non stop no matter what i do i cant stop thinking of food every hour xD No matter the macros. Whoops Hopefully upping calories a bit will help (ill try my hardest to match fitbit but it worries me lol)
I really think you'd benefit more from a full diet break, Jayde. You've been at this a long time and it will really help to get your hormones in check and bring your appetite in line. Then maybe regular refeeds going forward.
1-2week refeed seems the same to me as a diet break maybe i got the terms wrong, But im going to be trying 2 weeks (the fact it scares me made my mind up on 2 weeks vs 1) of eating at maintenance according to my fitbit- Will be scary because say 1600ish on lazy days, But days i work i can burn upwards of 2500-3000...that sounds insane to someone who has averaged 1200-1700 for 18 months lol
Yep, refeed is short (2 days), diet break is 10-14 days. Since the 'rules' for diet break are a little different, in that you don't need to keep fat down (@anubis609, can you explain that one to us? I know I read about it, but my brain hasn't held it and now I can't remember which article it was in!). So, on those higher burn days, eat the doughnut.
Im so down for that LOL4
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