Clearly CICO has no bearing on my recent weight loss
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stevencloser wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »What would be the point of logging if it didn't include your calories and macros? I assumed common sense would lead people to include those metrics in their log. And for ppl who plateau at 6 months or whatever though logging calories, they are either not being accurate or they are not accounting for the fact that the less they weigh, the fewer calories they need, so if they haven't been adjusting their intake accordingly they will notice a decline in weight loss and will eventually see it stop altogether.
I don't believe I have ever seen anyone claim that keto increases metabolism. All I have ever seen is that it curbs appetite and causes the body to burn fat and protein for fuel instead of carbs. It may increase metabolism with increased physical activity, but more than that it changes how the metabolism functions.
Everything short of liposuction is based on a caloric deficit. Different paths to the same goal. CICO is it, barring some disease or condition. Even then CICO is it, the condition may just modify the whole process in some way which would change the requirements for that person.
Highlighted the important bit - I'm a living example of this. While my diabetes was untreated I lost 25 lbs in one month while eating everything I could and feeling like I was starving to death (because I literally was, due to my body's inability to metabolise glucose.)
I was probably taking in 4000 calories a day, and my TDEE, based on my stats and what I needed to eat to maintain when my diabetes was finally diagnosed and treated, was lower than that. So despite eating at a surplus I was losing weight.
Was this a violation of CICO? Well... in one sense yes. But in another sense, no, because the "CI" part just wasn't happening - the calories went in my mouth, sure, but instead of being metabolized and used by my body, they piled up in my blood until they could be filtered out by my kidneys. There's no simple way to measure what my CI was during this time, but it wasn't equal to the calorie value of the food I ate.
CICO is a hard and fast rule, but there are circumstances, such as not being able to digest food properly, which make it difficult to accurately calculate calories in. There are other circumstances such as thyroid problems and medications which affect metabolism which make it difficult to calculate calories out.
Exactly, CI in the mouth isn't the same as CI into fat cells. CO out of a fat cell are not the same as CO into the bloodstream available to do work due to ineficiencies of gluconeogensis. A lot of these disagreements, IMO, are due to not being clear on what me mean.
Those things are in cico. We've told you many times before. Yet you come back and keep saying the same thing as if previous discussions never happened.
Egads those things are not in CICO.
CICO assumes CI in the mouth are all used for something which they are not. It also assumes that 100% of the caloric energy from fat is utilized to meet the bodies energy needs which it can't (it may make the body hotter when metabolized but it wasn't required to to meet any energy demand). CICO is a conservative model (for calculating deficits) by making these assumptions. If you stick to CICO, you should succeed because it is a conservative model. That doesn't mean you can't do better than CICO predicts and that things like LC or IF don't matter. I apologize to the OP for this big tangent. I'm done talking about this here.
They are in CICO. The calorie counts on packages that everyone knows of 4 calories for a gram of carbs, 4 for protein and 9 for fat are not actually "what is in the food" but already normalized to be how much is actually available to the human body.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »What would be the point of logging if it didn't include your calories and macros? I assumed common sense would lead people to include those metrics in their log. And for ppl who plateau at 6 months or whatever though logging calories, they are either not being accurate or they are not accounting for the fact that the less they weigh, the fewer calories they need, so if they haven't been adjusting their intake accordingly they will notice a decline in weight loss and will eventually see it stop altogether.
I don't believe I have ever seen anyone claim that keto increases metabolism. All I have ever seen is that it curbs appetite and causes the body to burn fat and protein for fuel instead of carbs. It may increase metabolism with increased physical activity, but more than that it changes how the metabolism functions.
Everything short of liposuction is based on a caloric deficit. Different paths to the same goal. CICO is it, barring some disease or condition. Even then CICO is it, the condition may just modify the whole process in some way which would change the requirements for that person.
Highlighted the important bit - I'm a living example of this. While my diabetes was untreated I lost 25 lbs in one month while eating everything I could and feeling like I was starving to death (because I literally was, due to my body's inability to metabolise glucose.)
I was probably taking in 4000 calories a day, and my TDEE, based on my stats and what I needed to eat to maintain when my diabetes was finally diagnosed and treated, was lower than that. So despite eating at a surplus I was losing weight.
Was this a violation of CICO? Well... in one sense yes. But in another sense, no, because the "CI" part just wasn't happening - the calories went in my mouth, sure, but instead of being metabolized and used by my body, they piled up in my blood until they could be filtered out by my kidneys. There's no simple way to measure what my CI was during this time, but it wasn't equal to the calorie value of the food I ate.
CICO is a hard and fast rule, but there are circumstances, such as not being able to digest food properly, which make it difficult to accurately calculate calories in. There are other circumstances such as thyroid problems and medications which affect metabolism which make it difficult to calculate calories out.
Exactly, CI in the mouth isn't the same as CI into fat cells. CO out of a fat cell are not the same as CO into the bloodstream available to do work due to ineficiencies of gluconeogensis. A lot of these disagreements, IMO, are due to not being clear on what me mean.
Those things are in cico. We've told you many times before. Yet you come back and keep saying the same thing as if previous discussions never happened.
Egads those things are not in CICO.
CICO assumes CI in the mouth are all used for something which they are not. It also assumes that 100% of the caloric energy from fat is utilized to meet the bodies energy needs which it can't (it may make the body hotter when metabolized but it wasn't required to to meet any energy demand). CICO is a conservative model (for calculating deficits) by making these assumptions. If you stick to CICO, you should succeed because it is a conservative model. That doesn't mean you can't do better than CICO predicts and that things like LC or IF don't matter. I apologize to the OP for this big tangent. I'm done talking about this here.
Maybe you should take the time and read the information i posted by Kevin Hall. CI refers to the metabolized components of food.
I lied, I came back. It matters who you talk to what is included and what is not. A lot of folks here who say things like LC or IF make NO difference are obviously not including just the metabolized components, they are including every single calorie consumed. It is a matter of semantics I think that causes these debates.
Its a matter of the studies which prove you wrong. When you equate for protein and calories, there is no difference. Your theories over the years have yet to be proven.
The body is very complex obviously. Someone could just do the calculations, irrespective of studies, and show how much energy is required to digest certain food and how much is required to produce ketones and glucose from fat. Then it would be easy to see that based on timing of eating and what you eat, it will make a difference. The studies have so many confounding variable that confuse things. This problem can be tackled by just analysis alone to show that what and when will make a difference. 67% efficiency for gluconeogenis and probably 90+ % efficiency for digesting consumed glucose and what you eat makes no difference. It doesn't pass an analysis sanity check that those things make no difference.
Dude, your own glucenogenisis study was a joke. Its showed an 11 calorie increase in EE, of which they alluded to 65% of that increase from increased protein.
None of this disproves CICO. At best you can only say that there is no way to calculate CICO. Except you can use law of averages which is good enough. I have done it repeatedly. I know i maintain at about 3k.
It didn't show 11 calorie increase:
On average, in the H condition, 26 g extra glucose was produced through gluconeogenesis that resulted in an increase in EE of 0.144 MJ. The increase in EE after the H diet compared with the N diet was 0.340 ± 0.132 MJ. Thus, the contribution of increased gluconeogenesis to increased EE was 42%. Because the energy content of 26 g glucose is 0.442 MJ, the energy cost to produce glucose through gluconeogenesis was 33% of the energy content of glucose (95% CI: 16%, 50%).
That's about a 100cal difference. Again for the umteenth time, I've stated IF and LC make SOME difference. I think it is significant (100 cals isn't in the noise and this didn't include IF). I don't know for sure how much a difference it makes but this study makes an attempt at quantifying that. The beef I have is when people on here say it makes NO difference (you should really state you THINK it makes LITTLE difference and you might be correct but you are wrong to say it make NO difference). The difference ISN"T ZERO. How big a difference is TBD.
People shouldn't also get wigged out thinking I'm attacking CICO which I'm not. I've said numerous times that CICO is a worst case estimate (conservative estimate) for gains and losses and if you abide by it, you will get at least those losses and no more than the gains it predicts and to the extent of the difference IF/LC make, the loss or gain will be a little lower than what CICO predicts. I don't think what I've said is that difficult to understand so I don't know why people have an issue with it. Peoples attitude that nothing makes a difference squelches investigation as to how much a difference those things may make.
Except your study didn't measure the differences in protein intake, they estimated it based on some values from other studies that KH did. So only a small portion of the increased EE was contributed to GNG.. Most of the estimated EE was due to an increase in protein intake, and only of which the participates ate 0% carbs (which is unlikely in a real life situation), while eating 171g of protein (in which most low carbers/ketoers won't do) and all while following a glycogen depletion workout (which again, has very little application.
The bigger difference aren't related to IF/LC... they are related to protein content. When equating for calories, high protein diets have always shown an improvement in weight loss and metabolism. When you equate for protein and calories, there is no difference. So your predictions just haven't been shown. The high protein ones have been demonstrated time and time again.
The results said 26g more of gluconeogenesis. I don't believe that was due to the protein intake. That was separate from the protein effects which was additional EE.
Bottom line, you just stated what I've been stating, that what you eat does matter.
If what we are eating is protein, it does matter. But IF and LC have nothing to do with that. And if you look at your study, it does point out that the increase in EE was only 42% from GNG (so at best 40 calories).
I don't think the extra gluconeogenisis was due to the protein diet. It was due to the lack of carbs. I think that
is the correct interpretation so it would be about 100kcals difference. LC and IF will result in more gluconeogenisis due to being in a state of low carb consumption so this study is applicable to those two things.
They forced gng due to depleting glycogen and not eating carbs. It used protein to convert to glycogen. It does so as a protective mechanism to ensure a fuel is provided. This does not occur unless it has to. No difference the the body creating SFA from carbs.
Ideally, they would have controlled calories and protein to not induce a thermogenic effect from protein. But they didnt. This was merely a investigative study. And without controlling for the additional variables, it can only be hypothesized. Also, they clearly state several times that not all of the EE ia from GNG.
Ultimately, the application is not there. Most people consume some level of carba which will store as glycogen in the liver or muscles. But even if you do get some effect, why would you want protein to convert to glucose?
ETA: "In conclusion, increased gluconeogenesis contributes to increased EE after consumption of an H diet for 1.5 d following a decrease in body glycogen stores. Forty-two percent of the increase in EE after the H diet was explained by an increase in gluconeogenesis. The energy cost of gluconeogenesis was 33% of the energy content of glucose?
And "The energy costs of protein synthesis and protein breakdown have been estimated from theoretical values to be 3.6 and 0.7 kJ/g, respectively. Nevertheless, they have not actually been measured, and the contribution of these pathways to increased EE with a high-protein diet requires further study. Previously, it has been shown from a theoretical perspective that an increased demand on protein and amino acid turnover for gluconeogenesis by a low-carbohydrate diet increases EE"
On average, in the H condition, 26 g extra glucose was produced through gluconeogenesis that resulted in an increase in EE of 0.144 MJ. The increase in EE after the H diet compared with the N diet was 0.340 ± 0.132 MJ. Thus, the contribution of increased gluconeogenesis to increased EE was 42%. Because the energy content of 26 g glucose is 0.442 MJ, the energy cost to produce glucose through gluconeogenesis was 33% of the energy content of glucose (95% CI: 16%, 50%).
I think you may be right about the 42% of 26g(104kcal). Still bottom line is GNG was calculated to be 33% inefficient. A 20:4 IF diet will put you in GNG for a long time seems like to me. You may be right about a penalty for IF for using up some muscle but that might be acceptable since fat could be lost at a faster rate.2 -
stevencloser wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »What would be the point of logging if it didn't include your calories and macros? I assumed common sense would lead people to include those metrics in their log. And for ppl who plateau at 6 months or whatever though logging calories, they are either not being accurate or they are not accounting for the fact that the less they weigh, the fewer calories they need, so if they haven't been adjusting their intake accordingly they will notice a decline in weight loss and will eventually see it stop altogether.
I don't believe I have ever seen anyone claim that keto increases metabolism. All I have ever seen is that it curbs appetite and causes the body to burn fat and protein for fuel instead of carbs. It may increase metabolism with increased physical activity, but more than that it changes how the metabolism functions.
Everything short of liposuction is based on a caloric deficit. Different paths to the same goal. CICO is it, barring some disease or condition. Even then CICO is it, the condition may just modify the whole process in some way which would change the requirements for that person.
Highlighted the important bit - I'm a living example of this. While my diabetes was untreated I lost 25 lbs in one month while eating everything I could and feeling like I was starving to death (because I literally was, due to my body's inability to metabolise glucose.)
I was probably taking in 4000 calories a day, and my TDEE, based on my stats and what I needed to eat to maintain when my diabetes was finally diagnosed and treated, was lower than that. So despite eating at a surplus I was losing weight.
Was this a violation of CICO? Well... in one sense yes. But in another sense, no, because the "CI" part just wasn't happening - the calories went in my mouth, sure, but instead of being metabolized and used by my body, they piled up in my blood until they could be filtered out by my kidneys. There's no simple way to measure what my CI was during this time, but it wasn't equal to the calorie value of the food I ate.
CICO is a hard and fast rule, but there are circumstances, such as not being able to digest food properly, which make it difficult to accurately calculate calories in. There are other circumstances such as thyroid problems and medications which affect metabolism which make it difficult to calculate calories out.
Exactly, CI in the mouth isn't the same as CI into fat cells. CO out of a fat cell are not the same as CO into the bloodstream available to do work due to ineficiencies of gluconeogensis. A lot of these disagreements, IMO, are due to not being clear on what me mean.
Those things are in cico. We've told you many times before. Yet you come back and keep saying the same thing as if previous discussions never happened.
Egads those things are not in CICO.
CICO assumes CI in the mouth are all used for something which they are not. It also assumes that 100% of the caloric energy from fat is utilized to meet the bodies energy needs which it can't (it may make the body hotter when metabolized but it wasn't required to to meet any energy demand). CICO is a conservative model (for calculating deficits) by making these assumptions. If you stick to CICO, you should succeed because it is a conservative model. That doesn't mean you can't do better than CICO predicts and that things like LC or IF don't matter. I apologize to the OP for this big tangent. I'm done talking about this here.
Maybe you should take the time and read the information i posted by Kevin Hall. CI refers to the metabolized components of food.
I lied, I came back. It matters who you talk to what is included and what is not. A lot of folks here who say things like LC or IF make NO difference are obviously not including just the metabolized components, they are including every single calorie consumed. It is a matter of semantics I think that causes these debates.
Its a matter of the studies which prove you wrong. When you equate for protein and calories, there is no difference. Your theories over the years have yet to be proven.
The body is very complex obviously. Someone could just do the calculations, irrespective of studies, and show how much energy is required to digest certain food and how much is required to produce ketones and glucose from fat. Then it would be easy to see that based on timing of eating and what you eat, it will make a difference. The studies have so many confounding variable that confuse things. This problem can be tackled by just analysis alone to show that what and when will make a difference. 67% efficiency for gluconeogenis and probably 90+ % efficiency for digesting consumed glucose and what you eat makes no difference. It doesn't pass an analysis sanity check that those things make no difference.
Dude, your own glucenogenisis study was a joke. Its showed an 11 calorie increase in EE, of which they alluded to 65% of that increase from increased protein.
None of this disproves CICO. At best you can only say that there is no way to calculate CICO. Except you can use law of averages which is good enough. I have done it repeatedly. I know i maintain at about 3k.
It didn't show 11 calorie increase:
On average, in the H condition, 26 g extra glucose was produced through gluconeogenesis that resulted in an increase in EE of 0.144 MJ. The increase in EE after the H diet compared with the N diet was 0.340 ± 0.132 MJ. Thus, the contribution of increased gluconeogenesis to increased EE was 42%. Because the energy content of 26 g glucose is 0.442 MJ, the energy cost to produce glucose through gluconeogenesis was 33% of the energy content of glucose (95% CI: 16%, 50%).
That's about a 100cal difference. Again for the umteenth time, I've stated IF and LC make SOME difference. I think it is significant (100 cals isn't in the noise and this didn't include IF). I don't know for sure how much a difference it makes but this study makes an attempt at quantifying that. The beef I have is when people on here say it makes NO difference (you should really state you THINK it makes LITTLE difference and you might be correct but you are wrong to say it make NO difference). The difference ISN"T ZERO. How big a difference is TBD.
People shouldn't also get wigged out thinking I'm attacking CICO which I'm not. I've said numerous times that CICO is a worst case estimate (conservative estimate) for gains and losses and if you abide by it, you will get at least those losses and no more than the gains it predicts and to the extent of the difference IF/LC make, the loss or gain will be a little lower than what CICO predicts. I don't think what I've said is that difficult to understand so I don't know why people have an issue with it. Peoples attitude that nothing makes a difference squelches investigation as to how much a difference those things may make.
Except your study didn't measure the differences in protein intake, they estimated it based on some values from other studies that KH did. So only a small portion of the increased EE was contributed to GNG.. Most of the estimated EE was due to an increase in protein intake, and only of which the participates ate 0% carbs (which is unlikely in a real life situation), while eating 171g of protein (in which most low carbers/ketoers won't do) and all while following a glycogen depletion workout (which again, has very little application.
The bigger difference aren't related to IF/LC... they are related to protein content. When equating for calories, high protein diets have always shown an improvement in weight loss and metabolism. When you equate for protein and calories, there is no difference. So your predictions just haven't been shown. The high protein ones have been demonstrated time and time again.
The results said 26g more of gluconeogenesis. I don't believe that was due to the protein intake. That was separate from the protein effects which was additional EE.
Bottom line, you just stated what I've been stating, that what you eat does matter.
If what we are eating is protein, it does matter. But IF and LC have nothing to do with that. And if you look at your study, it does point out that the increase in EE was only 42% from GNG (so at best 40 calories).
I don't think the extra gluconeogenisis was due to the protein diet. It was due to the lack of carbs. I think that
is the correct interpretation so it would be about 100kcals difference. LC and IF will result in more gluconeogenisis due to being in a state of low carb consumption so this study is applicable to those two things.
They forced gng due to depleting glycogen and not eating carbs. It used protein to convert to glycogen. It does so as a protective mechanism to ensure a fuel is provided. This does not occur unless it has to. No difference the the body creating SFA from carbs.
Ideally, they would have controlled calories and protein to not induce a thermogenic effect from protein. But they didnt. This was merely a investigative study. And without controlling for the additional variables, it can only be hypothesized. Also, they clearly state several times that not all of the EE ia from GNG.
Ultimately, the application is not there. Most people consume some level of carba which will store as glycogen in the liver or muscles. But even if you do get some effect, why would you want protein to convert to glucose?
ETA: "In conclusion, increased gluconeogenesis contributes to increased EE after consumption of an H diet for 1.5 d following a decrease in body glycogen stores. Forty-two percent of the increase in EE after the H diet was explained by an increase in gluconeogenesis. The energy cost of gluconeogenesis was 33% of the energy content of glucose?
And "The energy costs of protein synthesis and protein breakdown have been estimated from theoretical values to be 3.6 and 0.7 kJ/g, respectively. Nevertheless, they have not actually been measured, and the contribution of these pathways to increased EE with a high-protein diet requires further study. Previously, it has been shown from a theoretical perspective that an increased demand on protein and amino acid turnover for gluconeogenesis by a low-carbohydrate diet increases EE"
On average, in the H condition, 26 g extra glucose was produced through gluconeogenesis that resulted in an increase in EE of 0.144 MJ. The increase in EE after the H diet compared with the N diet was 0.340 ± 0.132 MJ. Thus, the contribution of increased gluconeogenesis to increased EE was 42%. Because the energy content of 26 g glucose is 0.442 MJ, the energy cost to produce glucose through gluconeogenesis was 33% of the energy content of glucose (95% CI: 16%, 50%).
I think you may be right about the 42% of 26g(104kcal). Still bottom line is GNG was calculated to be 33% inefficient. A 20:4 IF diet will put you in GNG for a long time seems like to me. You may be right about a penalty for IF for using up some muscle but that might be acceptable since fat could be lost at a faster rate.
And any increase in EE will be lost from inability to hit those high protein numbers. And if you can't get adequate protein to support muscle sustainment, your EE will decrease through reductions in BMR.
Through in the fact, that you probably aren't going through glycogen depleting workouts, nor eating 0 carbs, your theoretical numbers are further limiting themselves.1 -
WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.3 -
WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.
Very controlled studies with mice with some fasting and some not and both eating the same amount of calories on the average has resulted in the fasting mice losing weight. Explain that!1 -
WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.
Very controlled studies with mice with some fasting and some not and both eating the same amount of calories on the average has resulted in the fasting mice losing weight. Explain that!
1. I don't even know which studies you are discussing and 2. What happens in mice models doesn't always transpose to humans. Mice models are a good foundation to justify human trials.2 -
WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.
Very controlled studies with mice with some fasting and some not and both eating the same amount of calories on the average has resulted in the fasting mice losing weight. Explain that!
1. I don't even know which studies you are discussing and 2. What happens in mice models doesn't always transpose to humans. Mice models are a good foundation to justify human trials.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319791.php
If mice can violate "CICO" then why not humans? How can a mouse violate CICO? The reason is CI in the mouth does not equal calories into a fat cell and calories out of a fat cell are not equivalent to calories available for work. When and what you eat makes a difference. Mice obey laws of conservation of energy just like humans. CICO is a conservative simple model that does not capture all the energy losses going on.
If CICO does not include calories not metabolized and also includes increases in body metabolism due to what and when you eat, then I will say CICO is a complete model.3 -
WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.
Very controlled studies with mice with some fasting and some not and both eating the same amount of calories on the average has resulted in the fasting mice losing weight. Explain that!
1. I don't even know which studies you are discussing and 2. What happens in mice models doesn't always transpose to humans. Mice models are a good foundation to justify human trials.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319791.php
If mice can violate "CICO" then why not humans? How can a mouse violate CICO? The reason is CI in the mouth does not equal calories into a fat cell and calories out of a fat cell are not equivalent to calories available for work. When and what you eat makes a difference. Mice obey laws of conservation of energy just like humans. CICO is a conservative simple model that does not capture all the energy losses going on.
If CICO does not include calories not metabolized and also includes increases in body metabolism that are not due to an energy demand on the body, then I will agree that CICO is the complete model.
This is a straw man argument since no one else is using the same limited definition of CICO you are. CI means calories into the system, not into the mouth. CO means caloric output, which obviously varies greatly between individuals.2 -
rheddmobile wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.
Very controlled studies with mice with some fasting and some not and both eating the same amount of calories on the average has resulted in the fasting mice losing weight. Explain that!
1. I don't even know which studies you are discussing and 2. What happens in mice models doesn't always transpose to humans. Mice models are a good foundation to justify human trials.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319791.php
If mice can violate "CICO" then why not humans? How can a mouse violate CICO? The reason is CI in the mouth does not equal calories into a fat cell and calories out of a fat cell are not equivalent to calories available for work. When and what you eat makes a difference. Mice obey laws of conservation of energy just like humans. CICO is a conservative simple model that does not capture all the energy losses going on.
If CICO does not include calories not metabolized and also includes increases in body metabolism that are not due to an energy demand on the body, then I will agree that CICO is the complete model.
This is a straw man argument since no one else is using the same limited definition of CICO you are. CI means calories into the system, not into the mouth. CO means caloric output, which obviously varies greatly between individuals.
It is clear by people's comments that they include all calories into the mouth and don't take into account the variations of metabolism due to what you eat or when you eat. The simple statement like, "IF makes no difference" proves that.2 -
rheddmobile wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.
Very controlled studies with mice with some fasting and some not and both eating the same amount of calories on the average has resulted in the fasting mice losing weight. Explain that!
1. I don't even know which studies you are discussing and 2. What happens in mice models doesn't always transpose to humans. Mice models are a good foundation to justify human trials.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319791.php
If mice can violate "CICO" then why not humans? How can a mouse violate CICO? The reason is CI in the mouth does not equal calories into a fat cell and calories out of a fat cell are not equivalent to calories available for work. When and what you eat makes a difference. Mice obey laws of conservation of energy just like humans. CICO is a conservative simple model that does not capture all the energy losses going on.
If CICO does not include calories not metabolized and also includes increases in body metabolism that are not due to an energy demand on the body, then I will agree that CICO is the complete model.
This is a straw man argument since no one else is using the same limited definition of CICO you are. CI means calories into the system, not into the mouth. CO means caloric output, which obviously varies greatly between individuals.
It is clear by people's comments that they include all calories into the mouth and don't take into account the variations of metabolism due to what you eat or when you eat. A simple statement like, "IF makes no difference" proves that.
Actually, if you looked at the KH paper I provide, CI = food metabolized. IF doesn't change that. If you consumed the same exact foods, it would have the same impact.2 -
rheddmobile wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.
Very controlled studies with mice with some fasting and some not and both eating the same amount of calories on the average has resulted in the fasting mice losing weight. Explain that!
1. I don't even know which studies you are discussing and 2. What happens in mice models doesn't always transpose to humans. Mice models are a good foundation to justify human trials.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319791.php
If mice can violate "CICO" then why not humans? How can a mouse violate CICO? The reason is CI in the mouth does not equal calories into a fat cell and calories out of a fat cell are not equivalent to calories available for work. When and what you eat makes a difference. Mice obey laws of conservation of energy just like humans. CICO is a conservative simple model that does not capture all the energy losses going on.
If CICO does not include calories not metabolized and also includes increases in body metabolism that are not due to an energy demand on the body, then I will agree that CICO is the complete model.
This is a straw man argument since no one else is using the same limited definition of CICO you are. CI means calories into the system, not into the mouth. CO means caloric output, which obviously varies greatly between individuals.
It is clear by people's comments that they include all calories into the mouth and don't take into account the variations of metabolism due to what you eat or when you eat. A simple statement like, "IF makes no difference" proves that.
Actually, if you looked at the KH paper I provide, CI = food metabolized. IF doesn't change that. If you consumed the same exact foods, it would have the same impact.
Ok, but most posters on here equate CI to food in the mouth. Timing does matter when the food is eaten.5 -
rheddmobile wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.
Very controlled studies with mice with some fasting and some not and both eating the same amount of calories on the average has resulted in the fasting mice losing weight. Explain that!
1. I don't even know which studies you are discussing and 2. What happens in mice models doesn't always transpose to humans. Mice models are a good foundation to justify human trials.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319791.php
If mice can violate "CICO" then why not humans? How can a mouse violate CICO? The reason is CI in the mouth does not equal calories into a fat cell and calories out of a fat cell are not equivalent to calories available for work. When and what you eat makes a difference. Mice obey laws of conservation of energy just like humans. CICO is a conservative simple model that does not capture all the energy losses going on.
If CICO does not include calories not metabolized and also includes increases in body metabolism that are not due to an energy demand on the body, then I will agree that CICO is the complete model.
This is a straw man argument since no one else is using the same limited definition of CICO you are. CI means calories into the system, not into the mouth. CO means caloric output, which obviously varies greatly between individuals.
It is clear by people's comments that they include all calories into the mouth and don't take into account the variations of metabolism due to what you eat or when you eat. A simple statement like, "IF makes no difference" proves that.
Actually, if you looked at the KH paper I provide, CI = food metabolized. IF doesn't change that. If you consumed the same exact foods, it would have the same impact.
Ok, but most posters on here equate CI to food in the mouth. Timing does matter when the food is eaten.
Posters may not always have the correct information. If foods are unmetabolized and not converted to energy, they will just be excreted. You often see this is those with malabsorption issues.
And please feel free to post a study that demonstrates timing matters, when controlled for calories and protein. Otherwise, you are making wild assumptions and aren't supported by science. And at that point, this discussion isn't worth my time.3 -
rheddmobile wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.
Very controlled studies with mice with some fasting and some not and both eating the same amount of calories on the average has resulted in the fasting mice losing weight. Explain that!
1. I don't even know which studies you are discussing and 2. What happens in mice models doesn't always transpose to humans. Mice models are a good foundation to justify human trials.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319791.php
If mice can violate "CICO" then why not humans? How can a mouse violate CICO? The reason is CI in the mouth does not equal calories into a fat cell and calories out of a fat cell are not equivalent to calories available for work. When and what you eat makes a difference. Mice obey laws of conservation of energy just like humans. CICO is a conservative simple model that does not capture all the energy losses going on.
If CICO does not include calories not metabolized and also includes increases in body metabolism that are not due to an energy demand on the body, then I will agree that CICO is the complete model.
This is a straw man argument since no one else is using the same limited definition of CICO you are. CI means calories into the system, not into the mouth. CO means caloric output, which obviously varies greatly between individuals.
It is clear by people's comments that they include all calories into the mouth and don't take into account the variations of metabolism due to what you eat or when you eat. A simple statement like, "IF makes no difference" proves that.
Actually, if you looked at the KH paper I provide, CI = food metabolized. IF doesn't change that. If you consumed the same exact foods, it would have the same impact.
Ok, but most posters on here equate CI to food in the mouth. Timing does matter when the food is eaten.
Posters may not always have the correct information. If foods are unmetabolized and not converted to energy, they will just be excreted. You often see this is those with malabsorption issues.
And please feel free to post a study that demonstrates timing matters, when controlled for calories and protein. Otherwise, you are making wild assumptions and aren't supported by science. And at that point, this discussion isn't worth my time.
I did post the mice study. How can one group of mice lose weight by doing IF while eating the same amount of calories as another group of mice that doesn't do IF? Did the mice violate the laws of thermodynamics?2 -
rheddmobile wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.
Very controlled studies with mice with some fasting and some not and both eating the same amount of calories on the average has resulted in the fasting mice losing weight. Explain that!
1. I don't even know which studies you are discussing and 2. What happens in mice models doesn't always transpose to humans. Mice models are a good foundation to justify human trials.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319791.php
If mice can violate "CICO" then why not humans? How can a mouse violate CICO? The reason is CI in the mouth does not equal calories into a fat cell and calories out of a fat cell are not equivalent to calories available for work. When and what you eat makes a difference. Mice obey laws of conservation of energy just like humans. CICO is a conservative simple model that does not capture all the energy losses going on.
If CICO does not include calories not metabolized and also includes increases in body metabolism that are not due to an energy demand on the body, then I will agree that CICO is the complete model.
This is a straw man argument since no one else is using the same limited definition of CICO you are. CI means calories into the system, not into the mouth. CO means caloric output, which obviously varies greatly between individuals.
It is clear by people's comments that they include all calories into the mouth and don't take into account the variations of metabolism due to what you eat or when you eat. A simple statement like, "IF makes no difference" proves that.
Actually, if you looked at the KH paper I provide, CI = food metabolized. IF doesn't change that. If you consumed the same exact foods, it would have the same impact.
Ok, but most posters on here equate CI to food in the mouth. Timing does matter when the food is eaten.
Posters may not always have the correct information. If foods are unmetabolized and not converted to energy, they will just be excreted. You often see this is those with malabsorption issues.
And please feel free to post a study that demonstrates timing matters, when controlled for calories and protein. Otherwise, you are making wild assumptions and aren't supported by science. And at that point, this discussion isn't worth my time.
I did post the mice study. How can one group of mice lose weight by doing IF while eating the same amount of calories as another group of mice that doesn't do IF? Did the mice violate the laws of thermodynamics?
You posted an article.... not a study in which didnt reference the specific study. And again, extrapolating results from mice to humans doesnt necessarily translate. So again, ao me human models to support your hypothesis.3 -
rheddmobile wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.
Very controlled studies with mice with some fasting and some not and both eating the same amount of calories on the average has resulted in the fasting mice losing weight. Explain that!
1. I don't even know which studies you are discussing and 2. What happens in mice models doesn't always transpose to humans. Mice models are a good foundation to justify human trials.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319791.php
If mice can violate "CICO" then why not humans? How can a mouse violate CICO? The reason is CI in the mouth does not equal calories into a fat cell and calories out of a fat cell are not equivalent to calories available for work. When and what you eat makes a difference. Mice obey laws of conservation of energy just like humans. CICO is a conservative simple model that does not capture all the energy losses going on.
If CICO does not include calories not metabolized and also includes increases in body metabolism that are not due to an energy demand on the body, then I will agree that CICO is the complete model.
This is a straw man argument since no one else is using the same limited definition of CICO you are. CI means calories into the system, not into the mouth. CO means caloric output, which obviously varies greatly between individuals.
It is clear by people's comments that they include all calories into the mouth and don't take into account the variations of metabolism due to what you eat or when you eat. A simple statement like, "IF makes no difference" proves that.
Actually, if you looked at the KH paper I provide, CI = food metabolized. IF doesn't change that. If you consumed the same exact foods, it would have the same impact.
Ok, but most posters on here equate CI to food in the mouth. Timing does matter when the food is eaten.
I think most posters here, when doing calorie counting do assume that calories in the mouth are close enough to CI to be a practical simplification in the early steps of the process of finding a workable calorie balance, when that process also includes monitoring results and adjusting eating, activity or both based on those results.
For most, the metabolic details you're concerned about have less impact on success than the inevitable (relatively minor) errors in estimating calories in what you eat, activity/exercise burn, and individual metabolic variation - let alone the habitual, psychological and social aspects.
As a practical matter . . . it doesn't matter. One is consistent, observes results, adjusts, and - if persistent - succeeds.
If IF helps people with managing appetite and consumption, swell. There's no practical need to calculate the metabolic implications, if there are any. It's academic - potentially interesting at that level, but not material.5 -
rheddmobile wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.
Very controlled studies with mice with some fasting and some not and both eating the same amount of calories on the average has resulted in the fasting mice losing weight. Explain that!
1. I don't even know which studies you are discussing and 2. What happens in mice models doesn't always transpose to humans. Mice models are a good foundation to justify human trials.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319791.php
If mice can violate "CICO" then why not humans? How can a mouse violate CICO? The reason is CI in the mouth does not equal calories into a fat cell and calories out of a fat cell are not equivalent to calories available for work. When and what you eat makes a difference. Mice obey laws of conservation of energy just like humans. CICO is a conservative simple model that does not capture all the energy losses going on.
If CICO does not include calories not metabolized and also includes increases in body metabolism that are not due to an energy demand on the body, then I will agree that CICO is the complete model.
This is a straw man argument since no one else is using the same limited definition of CICO you are. CI means calories into the system, not into the mouth. CO means caloric output, which obviously varies greatly between individuals.
It is clear by people's comments that they include all calories into the mouth and don't take into account the variations of metabolism due to what you eat or when you eat. A simple statement like, "IF makes no difference" proves that.
Actually, if you looked at the KH paper I provide, CI = food metabolized. IF doesn't change that. If you consumed the same exact foods, it would have the same impact.
Ok, but most posters on here equate CI to food in the mouth. Timing does matter when the food is eaten.
I think most posters here, when doing calorie counting do assume that calories in the mouth are close enough to CI to be a practical simplification in the early steps of the process of finding a workable calorie balance, when that process also includes monitoring results and adjusting eating, activity or both based on those results.
For most, the metabolic details you're concerned about have less impact on success than the inevitable (relatively minor) errors in estimating calories in what you eat, activity/exercise burn, and individual metabolic variation - let alone the habitual, psychological and social aspects.
As a practical matter . . . it doesn't matter. One is consistent, observes results, adjusts, and - if persistent - succeeds.
If IF helps people with managing appetite and consumption, swell. There's no practical need to calculate the metabolic implications, if there are any. It's academic - potentially interesting at that level, but not material.
CICO is a conservative model and will work for people, I've said that over and over. But I do think IF is not a minor effect and can help people.
Here is how I see it:
A person eating many meals a day at maintenance levels will hardly ever have an instantaneous surplus and the calories consumed will mostly be used directly with very little of it being put into fat stores. The person eating one meal a day will have a large instantaneous surplus for a while which will be put into fat. Then when that person is fasting, the body will have to draw from the fat stores to supply the energy needs. Drawing from the fat will result in losses due to the extra processes of gluconeogenesis and keytone production. Both of these people ate the same amount of calories, one used up most of the calories directly without any fat storage and subsequent retrieval of calories from fat and the other stored a large percentage of the calories as fat and then had to do a retrieval of calories from the fat which cost even more calories. That is the difference. Gluconeogenesis is only 67% efficient from what I've read. If an IF person put 90% of their calories into fat and then had to retrieve those back and all the retrieval was through gluconeogenesis, then they would have incurred 90% x 33% = 30% overall calorie reduction. I'm sure the effect isn't as great as that but I do think it is significant. Most people here do not look at what is happening in the body on an instantaneous basis and try to average what is happening calorie-wise over a 24-hr or longer period. That is not the proper way to look at things if you want to be accurate. Looking at things over a long time period and not what is happening instantaneously is a simplification which will work and is conservative but it ignores losses you can get with IF.5 -
Dude, you've beaten this horse to death multiple times in various versions on multiple threads. It is majoring in the minors and makes little practical difference in application. Maybe you want give it a rest? KWIM?3
-
rheddmobile wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.
Very controlled studies with mice with some fasting and some not and both eating the same amount of calories on the average has resulted in the fasting mice losing weight. Explain that!
1. I don't even know which studies you are discussing and 2. What happens in mice models doesn't always transpose to humans. Mice models are a good foundation to justify human trials.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319791.php
If mice can violate "CICO" then why not humans? How can a mouse violate CICO? The reason is CI in the mouth does not equal calories into a fat cell and calories out of a fat cell are not equivalent to calories available for work. When and what you eat makes a difference. Mice obey laws of conservation of energy just like humans. CICO is a conservative simple model that does not capture all the energy losses going on.
If CICO does not include calories not metabolized and also includes increases in body metabolism that are not due to an energy demand on the body, then I will agree that CICO is the complete model.
This is a straw man argument since no one else is using the same limited definition of CICO you are. CI means calories into the system, not into the mouth. CO means caloric output, which obviously varies greatly between individuals.
It is clear by people's comments that they include all calories into the mouth and don't take into account the variations of metabolism due to what you eat or when you eat. A simple statement like, "IF makes no difference" proves that.
Actually, if you looked at the KH paper I provide, CI = food metabolized. IF doesn't change that. If you consumed the same exact foods, it would have the same impact.
Ok, but most posters on here equate CI to food in the mouth. Timing does matter when the food is eaten.
I think most posters here, when doing calorie counting do assume that calories in the mouth are close enough to CI to be a practical simplification in the early steps of the process of finding a workable calorie balance, when that process also includes monitoring results and adjusting eating, activity or both based on those results.
For most, the metabolic details you're concerned about have less impact on success than the inevitable (relatively minor) errors in estimating calories in what you eat, activity/exercise burn, and individual metabolic variation - let alone the habitual, psychological and social aspects.
As a practical matter . . . it doesn't matter. One is consistent, observes results, adjusts, and - if persistent - succeeds.
If IF helps people with managing appetite and consumption, swell. There's no practical need to calculate the metabolic implications, if there are any. It's academic - potentially interesting at that level, but not material.
CICO is a conservative model and will work for people, I've said that over and over. But I do think IF is not a minor effect and can help people.
Here is how I see it:
A person eating many meals a day at maintenance levels will hardly ever have an instantaneous surplus and the calories consumed will mostly be used directly with very little of it being put into fat stores. The person eating one meal a day will have a large instantaneous surplus for a while which will be put into fat. Then when that person is fasting, the body will have to draw from the fat stores to supply the energy needs. Drawing from the fat will result in losses due to the extra processes of gluconeogenesis and keytone production. Both of these people ate the same amount of calories, one used up most of the calories directly without any fat storage and subsequent retrieval of calories from fat and the other stored a large percentage of the calories as fat and then had to do a retrieval of calories from the fat which cost even more calories. That is the difference. Gluconeogenesis is only 67% efficient from what I've read. If an IF person put 90% of their calories into fat and then had to retrieve those back and all the retrieval was through gluconeogenesis, then they would have incurred 90% x 33% = 30% overall calorie reduction. I'm sure the effect isn't as great as that but I do think it is significant. Most people here do not look at what is happening in the body on an instantaneous basis and try to average what is happening calorie-wise over a 24-hr or longer period. That is not the proper way to look at things if you want to be accurate. Looking at things over a long time period and not what is happening instantaneously is a simplification which will work and is conservative but it ignores losses you can get with IF.
In this context, as a practical matter, I don't really care whether I'm 100% accurate, I care whether I'm successful.
Speaking for myself, adding extra rules (about when to eat) is a needless complication. I'm sure that's not true for all, but I'm confident it's true for many.
I'd find your posts much easier to understand if you called calorie counting (the weight loss method) calorie counting, rather than lumping it imprecisely into the term CICO (the abbreviation for the simple weight loss equation). This seems a curious practice in one so attuned to academic finer details.2 -
rheddmobile wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »@blambo61 in thread after thread like this, you state that you agree that CICO works and that you aren't trying to disprove it, you seem to be saying that it's possible to go above and beyond the rate of loss someone would get from just the basic calorie deficit if they follow IF and/or a LCHF diet. People keep telling you that any additional benefits would either be negligible, or temporary, or just not be worth the extra effort if someone doesn't enjoy doing IF or eating LC. You disagree and keep touting studies about glucogenesis, in the past, if I recall, it was TEF and excretion you were focusing on.
My question is, what have your results been, since clearly you're so passionate about dialing in your results to maximize every potential fraction of a calorie burn. How long have you been on your weight loss journey? How much weight did you have to lose? How much have you lost and in what time period? Is the loss consistent from week to week?
I assume since you're so focused on the details that you've been holding protein and other variables constant, so that you really can prove that these things matter.... so what have your results been so far? Are you losing at 1.5 lbs/week instead of a predicted 1 lb/week? 1.25 lb/week? 1.1 lb/week? You keep saying the advantage is not insignificant, but I would like to see it expressed in how much extra a person could lose in the same time period so people can assess whether the extra trouble is worth going to or not.
Thanks in advance for sharing the results of your experiment!
The study I just posted looks like LC makes about 100kcal difference a day due to LC for the people the experiment was run on. IF wasn't addressed which I think would be an even bigger contribution.
If both were done and it resulted in a 200-300 kcal/day difference, would that not be significant?
My BMR is supposed to be about 2000kcal/day (by impedance measurements and by MFP predictions) or about 90-kcal/hr. If I do a 20:4 IF, I imagine that I'm doing gluconeogenisis about 16-hrs of that time. That would be about 90x16 cals produced that way (some of the cals I'm running on would be keytones also so the numbers for gluconeogensis wouldn't be that high but I'm sure there is some inneficiencies producing those also) which is about 1440kcals. 33% of that number is about 480kcals/day (losses due to inefficiencies). Someone eating a high carb continuous diet would be performing gluconeogenesis for a much shorter time, maybe 4-hrs at the end of their sleep so the difference between these extremes could be about 360kcals/day. That is a ball park estimate for just IF. LC combined would make the time in gluconeogenis even longer by about 4-hrs in this example so both together could be back to about 480kcals/day. None of this addresses rate and saturation limits on properly digesting the food consumed during a 4-hr eating window which could even further increase a deficit. Those are significant numbers.
My main point is, a lot of people say it makes NO difference which flies in the face of any reasoning. That attitude stifles looking into the magnitude of the differences it makes. I don't know how much a difference it makes but I do know the difference is not ZERO. Anyone who thinks that does not have a basic understanding of thermodynamics. You can't take electricity, do electrolysis with it, take the hydrogen and oxygen produced with the electrolysis, burn it to turn a steam turbine and end up with the same amount of electrical energy you started with! There are losses. Going from food to fat to glucose results in losses. 33% losses according to the study I provided.
People lump all these other effects into BMR which is in error. They will calculate CI the mouth, energy expenditures and calculate BMR from that. The example of the diabetic shows that is the wrong approach because they don't aborb food (without insulin) and it is excreted. Their basal metabolic needs didn't use those calories up. Same with losses from gluconeogenisis, they may make your body hotter, but they were not used up from an an external energy demand from the body and would not be necessary if carbs where present.
My experience won't prove anything, but I have lost at a greater rate than what MFP predicted. I lost about 45-lbs in 5-months. I did count calories and by the BMR estimate I was given and the exercise and steps I did, I lost about 1-lb more/week than it said I should. There are MANY more people, some I read about today even, that did detailed calorie counting for a long time and plateaued then started a 5:2 IF diet and started losing while continuing the counting as they had done before. That doesn't necessarily prove anything either since it wasn't a controlled experiment, but there is tons of antecdotal evidence, which may indicate causality. I maintained for 1.5 years after the initial weight loss and now I've lost 13-lbs in the last 8 weeks after going back on my 20:4 IF diet. I maintained on a 16:8 IF diet. I eat ad libitum in the evenings and I don't count calories very much. I probably eat about 2000-2400kcal/day (mostly 2400/day) based on the few days I have counted. I run 4xweek for about 20-miles/week. My estimated TDEE is 2700kcal/day (I have a smart gps watch that gives me steps and running estimates - I do run hills once a week which it will underestimate). For the last 8-wks my average loss is 1.62-lbs/week which would require a minimum of an 810kcal deficit/day (my losses were 2-lbs week except for two of the weeks I didn't keep the diet everyday due to a marriage in the family and some other circumstances). There is no way I'm eating only 1900 kcals/day on the average guaranteed! For me, there is an unexplained difference of about 300kcal or more/day which coincides well with my gestimate above. When I was at 2-lbs loss/day (doing IF everyday), the unexplained difference was about 300-700kcal/day.
I don't have a problem with people saying they think the factors mentioned are insignificant (TBD) but I do have a problem when they say they don't exist.
A lot of theory, that isn't backed up by data (since you don't log), and you are trying to extrapolate while you aren't following the conditions of the study (neither protein level not carb level). If any of your theories were true, they would have come out in the KH studies comparing keto vs high sugar/high carb where protein and calorie where held constant.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that influence EE, but it's minuscule and certainly not the 300+ calories you are thinking.
Very controlled studies with mice with some fasting and some not and both eating the same amount of calories on the average has resulted in the fasting mice losing weight. Explain that!
1. I don't even know which studies you are discussing and 2. What happens in mice models doesn't always transpose to humans. Mice models are a good foundation to justify human trials.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319791.php
If mice can violate "CICO" then why not humans? How can a mouse violate CICO? The reason is CI in the mouth does not equal calories into a fat cell and calories out of a fat cell are not equivalent to calories available for work. When and what you eat makes a difference. Mice obey laws of conservation of energy just like humans. CICO is a conservative simple model that does not capture all the energy losses going on.
If CICO does not include calories not metabolized and also includes increases in body metabolism that are not due to an energy demand on the body, then I will agree that CICO is the complete model.
This is a straw man argument since no one else is using the same limited definition of CICO you are. CI means calories into the system, not into the mouth. CO means caloric output, which obviously varies greatly between individuals.
It is clear by people's comments that they include all calories into the mouth and don't take into account the variations of metabolism due to what you eat or when you eat. A simple statement like, "IF makes no difference" proves that.
Actually, if you looked at the KH paper I provide, CI = food metabolized. IF doesn't change that. If you consumed the same exact foods, it would have the same impact.
Ok, but most posters on here equate CI to food in the mouth. Timing does matter when the food is eaten.
I think most posters here, when doing calorie counting do assume that calories in the mouth are close enough to CI to be a practical simplification in the early steps of the process of finding a workable calorie balance, when that process also includes monitoring results and adjusting eating, activity or both based on those results.
For most, the metabolic details you're concerned about have less impact on success than the inevitable (relatively minor) errors in estimating calories in what you eat, activity/exercise burn, and individual metabolic variation - let alone the habitual, psychological and social aspects.
As a practical matter . . . it doesn't matter. One is consistent, observes results, adjusts, and - if persistent - succeeds.
If IF helps people with managing appetite and consumption, swell. There's no practical need to calculate the metabolic implications, if there are any. It's academic - potentially interesting at that level, but not material.
CICO is a conservative model and will work for people, I've said that over and over. But I do think IF is not a minor effect and can help people.
Here is how I see it:
A person eating many meals a day at maintenance levels will hardly ever have an instantaneous surplus and the calories consumed will mostly be used directly with very little of it being put into fat stores. The person eating one meal a day will have a large instantaneous surplus for a while which will be put into fat. Then when that person is fasting, the body will have to draw from the fat stores to supply the energy needs. Drawing from the fat will result in losses due to the extra processes of gluconeogenesis and keytone production. Both of these people ate the same amount of calories, one used up most of the calories directly without any fat storage and subsequent retrieval of calories from fat and the other stored a large percentage of the calories as fat and then had to do a retrieval of calories from the fat which cost even more calories. That is the difference. Gluconeogenesis is only 67% efficient from what I've read. If an IF person put 90% of their calories into fat and then had to retrieve those back and all the retrieval was through gluconeogenesis, then they would have incurred 90% x 33% = 30% overall calorie reduction. I'm sure the effect isn't as great as that but I do think it is significant. Most people here do not look at what is happening in the body on an instantaneous basis and try to average what is happening calorie-wise over a 24-hr or longer period. That is not the proper way to look at things if you want to be accurate. Looking at things over a long time period and not what is happening instantaneously is a simplification which will work and is conservative but it ignores losses you can get with IF.
In this context, as a practical matter, I don't really care whether I'm 100% accurate, I care whether I'm successful.
Speaking for myself, adding extra rules (about when to eat) is a needless complication. I'm sure that's not true for all, but I'm confident it's true for many.
I'd find your posts much easier to understand if you called calorie counting (the weight loss method) calorie counting, rather than lumping it imprecisely into the term CICO (the abbreviation for the simple weight loss equation). This seems a curious practice in one so attuned to academic finer details.
I never said anything about adding extra rules, I've said calorie counting or CICO will work, even in the post just prior to this one that you just replied to. I've just said if a person wants to do IF, there is a benefit, it isn't a requirement. I've said that numerous times.0 -
Dude, you've beaten this horse to death multiple times in various versions on multiple threads. It is majoring in the minors and makes little practical difference in application. Maybe you want give it a rest? KWIM?
I just went into a big spill as to why it is not a minor thing. Why not refute what I said with some substance instead of just being dismissive. I keep coming back supporting this because people keep coming back saying it makes no difference and don't provide much counter arguments to what I've said.1
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