Anyone read the latest research on Keto by Alan Aragon?
filbo132
Posts: 956 Member
What you all think of it? I am personally not surprised by the results, I kind of expect it infact.
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I find it inconclusive. More research is needed.
CICO for weight loss.. Low carb for longer satiation in those who are weak to those delectable temptations. Weight loss is the same in an average person. Weight loss is greater for ketoers ONLY because they would binge in any other environment. Demonizing it doesn't change this fact. If you can't control your eating with regular cico, then any diet in which you can is like a miracle. Whether that be keto, low carb, vegan, or the McDonald's diet.23 -
Keto is CICO. And studies don't "demonize" anything. They're neutral.
Getting that out of the way, I'm not surprised by the research. I eagerly await the other 5 parts of the study. It should be noted that Aragon is only a reviewer on the study.
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I need to know who you are following for the LULZ.3
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Would be interested in reading do you have a link at all?
Like you OP the equal fat loss and inferior exercise performance findings are no surprise.7 -
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So, like the obsessed ketoers, shaky sites. I agree that it's mostly nonsense, but the sites on both sides are.. questionable. You can woo me all you like but that doesn't take away from the fact that I'm right. Anti-ketoers hate it and demonized it while ketoers evangelize it. I beginning to think you people just like to find something to fight about..like an old nagging couple. There needs to be a neutral group that can untangle this mess and show both sides that it isn't magic but it isn't ridiculous either. If it don't work for you.. try something else.. don't hate on those it works for. If it works for you, awesome, don't add pseudoscience to try and make it look better. Just leave it at CICO for those who binge on carbs.21
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MinuitMinuet wrote: »So, like the obsessed ketoers, shaky sites. I agree that it's mostly nonsense, but the sites on both sides are.. questionable. You can woo me all you like but that doesn't take away from the fact that I'm right. Anti-ketoers hate it and demonized it while ketoers evangelize it. I beginning to think you people just like to find something to fight about..like an old nagging couple. There needs to be a neutral group that can untangle this mess and show both sides that it isn't magic but it isn't ridiculous either. If it don't work for you.. try something else.. don't hate on those it works for. If it works for you, awesome, don't add pseudoscience to try and make it look better. Just leave it at CICO for those who binge on carbs.
Did you read the whole article. Just for the record, here is my view on keto/lc diets. They can be beneficial for some, particularly those who are Insulin Resistant or have issues with trigger foods, cravings. Beyond that, the research to date indicates no metabolic advantage to any diet other than calorie restriction is all studies where calories and protein are held constant. There seems to be a disadvantage for anything beyond low intensity exercise to keto/ lc diets based on studies done to date.
I seriously don't get why your stance is so argumentative and defensive. Nobody in this thread attacked, demonized or in any way attacked any point of view.12 -
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MinuitMinuet wrote: »So, like the obsessed ketoers, shaky sites. I agree that it's mostly nonsense, but the sites on both sides are.. questionable. You can woo me all you like but that doesn't take away from the fact that I'm right. Anti-ketoers hate it and demonized it while ketoers evangelize it. I beginning to think you people just like to find something to fight about..like an old nagging couple. There needs to be a neutral group that can untangle this mess and show both sides that it isn't magic but it isn't ridiculous either. If it don't work for you.. try something else.. don't hate on those it works for. If it works for you, awesome, don't add pseudoscience to try and make it look better. Just leave it at CICO for those who binge on carbs.
"You people". What particular demographic is that please?
Not sure where you get the "hate" comment from? Personally I don't hate keto at all, I do hate some of the silliness that surrounds it though and find some of the evangelists (as you call them) irritating.
I don't have to try anything else, I'm very happily maintaining. I'm also happy if other people find an eating style that keeps them in, or gets them to, good health. If that happens to be keto or low carb generally then it's no skin off my nose is it?
If you read the article and really think it's pseudoscience then that's very surprising - especially considering the contributors and reviewers. Did you actually read it? What in particular do you take issue with?
Do you really believe that people who don't do low carb diets all have a binge eating disorder? Can't people eat moderate carbs? Are all the populations in the so called Blue Zones sufferers of BED too by default?8 -
It really does feel like it is just anti this or anti that. Keto works for some, certainly not all. I get you are posting half finished research and asking for opinions, but it just feels like MFP forums have turned into diet battlegrounds. Can't we all just come together in fitness and weight loss without bashing and degrading methods that do work for others? So what if it isn't the best? If people are losing weight on it and understand the risks then more power to them. It really just seems like an attempt to start a debate not a discussion. If you do keto and it works for you, good job. I won't take away the glory that is your success with half finished research.7
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I don't get the defensiveness regarding this. It's also not half finished research. It's part 1 of a 6 part release.
The study showed that keto worked just as well for weight loss, which is all you keto defenders are saying.
This section IS the bodybuilding section, and keto does have some drawbacks when it comes to muscle building. This has been known. If you two had ever read this section, this has been discussed before, and even body builders who keto usually do CKD when training to maximize gains because carbs are better for muscle gains.
Keto has drawbacks for other athletes too, and this is all that chart says. This isn't anything new. People who train know this.17 -
I will chime in here......
I come and go in the MFP forums as I find the "<fill in the blank> is bad" arguments boring and the ensuing "blah blah blah" childish. Now, please understand that this is *NOT* directed at anyone in this post - or at this post. This is just a very general observation that I have made in my short time here. And this post will possibly turn out to be one of those type of posts (and this is *NOT* directed @filbo132 - great job on posting this so that those interested can follow it).
What I do find encouraging (and why I continue to come back) is that there are awesome and amazing folks in here from whom I learn. Everyone is different.....everyone is going to gain from one thing or another. And, what works for me might not work for you - and vice versa. But, just because my opinion (which is often - in part, anyway - formed by some personal experience) differs from your's does not make me wrong and you right (and, again, vice versa).
I am interested in the Keto Diet. I am particularly interested due to a high A1C value (for the last decade). If that will help me reduce that value to something within "normal" then that is a good thing. For me. Because I have a specific need and the Keto Diet seems to be a very viable solution to that specific need then I am going to investigate it. As I suspect that some would (and, unfortunately, I can not say "most would").
Anyway, I am grateful that I logged in tonight and that @filbo132 posted this.
I am also interested in super serious training sessions. I am going back to the gym this coming week so I will see how the low carbs that I have been playing with this month (the entire month of October!) work when I hit the gym hard. I think that we all know how that is going to go.
I am going to find a way to make it work.
I mean, you get healthy first; then you get fit, right? That is the only way to do things.
Anyway, there are those with an agenda. Again, not directed at anyone in this post....just a general observation that I have made.
And, there are ignorant folks. I include myself in that group. It is okay to share your opinion - especially when it is ignorant - so that those with specific knowledge/experience can help you to see your ignorance and edjumacate you.
Those with an agenda are welcome and encouraged to keep their agenda to themselves.
Just saying.....4 -
bgctrinity wrote: »It really does feel like it is just anti this or anti that. Keto works for some, certainly not all. I get you are posting half finished research and asking for opinions, but it just feels like MFP forums have turned into diet battlegrounds. Can't we all just come together in fitness and weight loss without bashing and degrading methods that do work for others? So what if it isn't the best? If people are losing weight on it and understand the risks then more power to them. It really just seems like an attempt to start a debate not a discussion. If you do keto and it works for you, good job. I won't take away the glory that is your success with half finished research.
There is no anti or pro in the OP. It is simply the sharing of some new information. Whatever else that is being read in is the responsibility of the reader. It is just objective information based on the studies.
As GottaBurnEmAll says, this is the Body Building section. Information like this is going to viewed here in the light of helping or impeding body building. Most of the research on keto/lc indicates it is less than optimum for muscle gains and getting the most out of workouts. Personally, I don't wish to spend the time at the gym working on my body composition to have sub-optimum nutrition for my objectives. Especially at age 66 when I don't have the benefit of a young man's hormones!6 -
CWShultz27105 wrote: »I will chime in here......
I come and go in the MFP forums as I find the "<fill in the blank> is bad" arguments boring and the ensuing "blah blah blah" childish. Now, please understand that this is *NOT* directed at anyone in this post - or at this post. This is just a very general observation that I have made in my short time here. And this post will possibly turn out to be one of those type of posts (and this is *NOT* directed @filbo132 - great job on posting this so that those interested can follow it).
What I do find encouraging (and why I continue to come back) is that there are awesome and amazing folks in here from whom I learn. Everyone is different.....everyone is going to gain from one thing or another. And, what works for me might not work for you - and vice versa. But, just because my opinion (which is often - in part, anyway - formed by some personal experience) differs from your's does not make me wrong and you right (and, again, vice versa).
I am interested in the Keto Diet. I am particularly interested due to a high A1C value (for the last decade). If that will help me reduce that value to something within "normal" then that is a good thing. For me. Because I have a specific need and the Keto Diet seems to be a very viable solution to that specific need then I am going to investigate it. As I suspect that some would (and, unfortunately, I can not say "most would").
Anyway, I am grateful that I logged in tonight and that @filbo132 posted this.
I am also interested in super serious training sessions. I am going back to the gym this coming week so I will see how the low carbs that I have been playing with this month (the entire month of October!) work when I hit the gym hard. I think that we all know how that is going to go. I am going to find a way to make it work.
I mean, you get healthy first; then you get fit, right? That is the only way to do things.
Anyway, there are those with an agenda. Again, not directed at anyone in this post....just a general observation that I have made.
And, there are ignorant folks. I include myself in that group. It is okay to share your opinion - especially when it is ignorant - so that those with specific knowledge/experience can help you to see your ignorance and edjumacate you.
Those with an agenda are welcome and encouraged to keep their agenda to themselves.
Just saying.....
Spot on! Based on critical health marker, you have made a decision to implement keto/lc. Just as a side note, sometimes just lowering carbs can help A1c but that is your call. Some your decision making hierarchy in spot on. Overall health first, gym performance 2nd. Kudos!
Even if you find some fall off of gym performance, as the saying goes, you are still doing better than everyone still sitting on the couch!2 -
I found this interesting. Kind of confirms some other the positions i have taken based on previous research i have seen.6
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Exactly, man! And I am playing with lower carbs.....at the moment. This coming week will be the 'real world test'. I will share my experiences but want to emphasize that these experiences are mine....everyone is different. Keto is not going to be something - should I end up going that route - that I am going to kinda do when it is convenient. It will be part of the life-style!
And my numbers (dead lift, squat, bench) are not super awesome but not bad for someone who has been doing two of them (squats and dead lifts) for about six months (well, one calendar year with three longer breaks). Not expecting to pick up (see how I did that? My gosh, I am funny af!) where I left off. Actually going to start a full-on program when I get back in there. We will see!!!!!! #SuperExcited3 -
CWShultz27105 wrote: »Exactly, man! And I am playing with lower carbs.....at the moment. This coming week will be the 'real world test'. I will share my experiences but want to emphasize that these experiences are mine....everyone is different. Keto is not going to be something - should I end up going that route - that I am going to kinda do when it is convenient. It will be part of the life-style!
And my numbers (dead lift, squat, bench) are not super awesome but not bad for someone who has been doing two of them (squats and dead lifts) for about six months (well, one calendar year with three longer breaks). Not expecting to pick up (see how I did that? My gosh, I am funny af!) where I left off. Actually going to start a full-on program when I get back in there. We will see!!!!!! #SuperExcited
Just keep doing what you need. Your health is the most important variable. And if anything stagger some carbs around your workouts. From my experience, it has shown to be beneficial.3 -
MinuitMinuet wrote: »I find it inconclusive. More research is needed.
CICO for weight loss.. Low carb for longer satiation in those who are weak to those delectable temptations. Weight loss is the same in an average person. Weight loss is greater for ketoers ONLY because they would binge in any other environment. Demonizing it doesn't change this fact. If you can't control your eating with regular cico, then any diet in which you can is like a miracle. Whether that be keto, low carb, vegan, or the McDonald's diet.
As an FYI, low carb and keto dont satiate everyone. For some, it does and others it does not. If you are the former, its a great diet. For people like me, i need volume and protein/carbs does that for me.
And while a semantic, cico isnt a diet, it's the energy balance equation.6 -
Agreed. If I do the Keto, I know that there are four "variations" - one specificaly for studs, er, I mean folks who train.
And, if I stay on the low carb route, I am def going to play with carbs (I hesitate to call it timing, because that is something else....and I hesitate to call it 'cycling' but that is likely closer to what I would be doing). I have used these three months not in the gym pretty wisely....I have learned a lot about myself, nutritionally speaking, and what works - and does not work - for me. Well, with the context of that statement being "out of the gym".
Anyway, I appreciate the comments and insight. Truly mean that. But, do not want to hijack this post. Let's get back to the study!!!!1 -
Regarding further parts of the study, in the Facebook discussion, someone brought up how keto affects disease and Aragon responded to just be patient, so there's a lot more to come apparently!3
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I am very much looking forward to the rest of the study. We have seen quite a lot of anecdotal evidence on these forums about how crap some find trying to bulk while keto, even when using CKD.
And anecdotally for myself, if my carb intake drops too low my workouts tank, I do intense bodyweight interval training as my cardio and it's just awful without a decent amount of carbs. I also need some starchy carbs with my meals to be completely satiated. BUT, carbs are the macro I lower when losing because I want to make sure I get my protein and fat first.
I am not anti-keto/LC, I just think it is pushed by some quarters (not pointing any fingers, this applies outwith MFP too) far too vehemently as this great catch all for everyone. We'll all have our appetite suppressed, we'll all feel more mental clarity etc etc which is patently untrue.
But to reiterate, there was no anti intention in the OP or the research, it is simply a presentation of research which has to be done without bias in order to be taken seriously.7 -
Again, I am not saying that I disagree with the proposed research.. It's which sites that are putting it out their that poses the problem. Not for the sake of finding it invalid myself but that your target audience who oppose it WILL. If you take a known truth from a reputable medical website, delete it from its archives, and repost it on a non-reputable site.. truth withstanding, your audience will poke holes in it.
As for the demonizing it, perhaps you will benefit more by explaining ahead of time that your are in fact NOT AGAINST KETO, but against the pseudoscience behind it and that your goal is to educate the more thoughtful before they swallow the misinformation. Like I tell my daughter, it's not WHAT YOU SAY, it's how you say it. Or in this case, delivered it.
Do you see what I am trying to explain? It's not the content, it's the who..
And I never said it satiated everyone, psuLemon. In fact, I clearly spelled out that it is only viable to those it does satiate. I'm a neutral participant in this keto game that is being played. I do keto with the knowledge that it is beneficial to people like me but skeptical to the "science" behind it. I put science in quotation marks to emphasize the ridiculousness I find most of the research to be.
My problem is only with the imbalance being displayed for and against it. The delivery of those who are against it acts like an attack on the entire system and it's demography rather than just the science behind it.
An example would be two groups fighting over whether or not santa clause is real.. but on two complete extreme opposite sides.
One side says there is a santa clause and hails his flying reign deer, magical elves, North Pole address, and his proposed ability to stalk 7 billion victims.
On the other extreme end are those completely against the idea at all and deny any existence he may have ever held.
In the middle is the person calling out the unicorn riding fairy folk and while simultaneously trying to unplug the mules ears and explain that no you do NOT believe in fairy tales but there was a man from which the story is based so the idea of his existence is not as far reaching as they could imagine and the principles in which he left; joy, peace, kindness, hope..are still principles in which we could all agree on.13 -
This is beginning to feel like Trump/Hilary debate on my Facebook page! Bottom line is if it works DO IT! Come on let's get real, for most people in America, we struggle with excess weight.
My feeling is try it all, pick one and stick to it. Make it a life change if you can and be happy with your choice. Don't get to analytical about it all or "it" will just steer you into having the idgaf attitude and eat unhealthy or quit. Now if you are further ahead in your journey or have always been in shape and have had no issues w/weight then go ahead and get your geek on! Science ans stats are great to read but we certainly don't want to run our new people out the doors because of all the crazy rants about what works and what doesn't right? For me, the longer I stay healthy and am focused on my journey the more I want to discover more about the diet I have chosen. Anyway, just my two cents. Good luck to all and let's make today great!2 -
MinuitMinuet wrote: »Again, I am not saying that I disagree with the proposed research.. It's which sites that are putting it out their that poses the problem. Not for the sake of finding it invalid myself but that your target audience who oppose it WILL. If you take a known truth from a reputable medical website, delete it from its archives, and repost it on a non-reputable site.. truth withstanding, your audience will poke holes in it.
As for the demonizing it, perhaps you will benefit more by explaining ahead of time that your are in fact NOT AGAINST KETO, but against the pseudoscience behind it and that your goal is to educate the more thoughtful before they swallow the misinformation. Like I tell my daughter, it's not WHAT YOU SAY, it's how you say it. Or in this case, delivered it.
Do you see what I am trying to explain? It's not the content, it's the who..
And I never said it satiated everyone, psuLemon. In fact, I clearly spelled out that it is only viable to those it does satiate. I'm a neutral participant in this keto game that is being played. I do keto with the knowledge that it is beneficial to people like me but skeptical to the "science" behind it. I put science in quotation marks to emphasize the ridiculousness I find most of the research to be.
My problem is only with the imbalance being displayed for and against it. The delivery of those who are against it acts like an attack on the entire system and it's demography rather than just the science behind it.
An example would be two groups fighting over whether or not santa clause is real.. but on two complete extreme opposite sides.
One side says there is a santa clause and hails his flying reign deer, magical elves, North Pole address, and his proposed ability to stalk 7 billion victims.
On the other extreme end are those completely against the idea at all and deny any existence he may have ever held.
In the middle is the person calling out the unicorn riding fairy folk and while simultaneously trying to unplug the mules ears and explain that no you do NOT believe in fairy tales but there was a man from which the story is based so the idea of his existence is not as far reaching as they could imagine and the principles in which he left; joy, peace, kindness, hope..are still principles in which we could all agree on.
So you're prejudiced against certain people and believe they're trying to demonize keto regardless what they post?7 -
And btw. this is the first time I've heard anyone call Alan Aragon "not reputable". Say what?10
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