Anyone read the latest research on Keto by Alan Aragon?
Replies
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Read and weep sure sir. All of those populations eat hardly no processed carbs. And eat what we consider a low calorie diet. They can’t eat whenever whatever they want sir. They do with what’s available to them l. So a good amount of daily fasting occurs which spare muscle mass and lengthens life then add in genetics and there you go sir.
What does that have to do with anything?
And certainly, you, eating keto, aren't eating whenver and whatever you want, are you? Energy balance still applies to you, just like it applies to anyone else.4 -
KarblessKreature wrote: »
Read and weep. Also, Tukisenta & Ewe tribes eating huge amounts of carbs(+90% carbs), or the Kitavans (69% carb diet), or the Hadza (lots of honey, fruit, animal products) or the Kung San (moderate carbs with lots of nuts), or the Ewe Tribe (who eat a diet of basically NOTHING BUT insulin-spiking carbs ... literaly 98% of the diet). Here is a Kitavan(those carbs are really fattening huh)
Read and weep sure sir. All of those populations eat hardly no processed carbs. And eat what we consider a low calorie diet. They can’t eat whenever whatever they want sir. They do with what’s available to them l. So a good amount of daily fasting occurs which spare muscle mass and lengthens life then add in genetics and there you go sir.
So you got nothing, thats what I thought. Maybe try posting some actual science instead of being like those things that live under bridges
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KarblessKreature wrote: »
Read and weep. Also, Tukisenta & Ewe tribes eating huge amounts of carbs(+90% carbs), or the Kitavans (69% carb diet), or the Hadza (lots of honey, fruit, animal products) or the Kung San (moderate carbs with lots of nuts), or the Ewe Tribe (who eat a diet of basically NOTHING BUT insulin-spiking carbs ... literaly 98% of the diet). Here is a Kitavan(those carbs are really fattening huh)
Read and weep sure sir. All of those populations eat hardly no processed carbs. And eat what we consider a low calorie diet. They can’t eat whenever whatever they want sir. They do with what’s available to them l. So a good amount of daily fasting occurs which spare muscle mass and lengthens life then add in genetics and there you go sir.
An none of them are eating pounds of butter, fatty cuts of red meat or anything else. And all those processed carbs are also full of fat and salt... so what is even you point and how does this relate to muscle building?
And we all have read your posts. If your point isnt being made, then the problem is probably how you are trying to justify your point.5 -
Ok guys you win your right. This grows tiring. Because no matter what I post it won’t matter. Also once again never said keto was the fasted way to build muscle mass. But that one could gain lean muscle mass. And that inflammation is reduced when processed carbs are cut down/eliminated. But I’ll leave you guys alone to bask in your carbs lol.
Btw none of their post contain anything about muscle building? The last one posted a pic of an in shape guy but that’s why his picture was used. So why are my post more wrong than theirs are?
FWIW my keto diet isn’t full of8 -
Not sure why but my posts are being cut off?
My keto diet includes
Low carb high fiber veggies,
mainly spinach(4cups/day)4 -
Post being cut off. Good luck to all
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KarblessKreature wrote: »Flame war lol cause “I often wonder” if all the keto na sayers have actually followed a well formulated keto diet? Or just tried for a week or two. Doesn’t really matter cause people like to argue/debate why they’re ways the best. And no one like being told what they're doing isn’t the most effective. But it’s good cause it starts the sharing of info. And the smarter people will use all available tools at they’re disposal to increase ones health. I at least try every sides concepts if I believe they will be beneficial to me after doing the research. And then find a way to implement them into my custom lifestyle. Later and luck to all
Just to quote you. This discussion wasn't about muscle building and you yourself made no mention of it in this ^^^ your first post on this thread.
It is a review of research which the first part of shows sub-optimal results for a variety of fitness applications with keto. There is more analysis to come. That's it. That's the discussion.5 -
Back to the study. I'd be very interested in understanding or seeing if there were any additional benefits form CKD/TKD style keto programs where carbs are timed and/or refeeds are incorporated. I know for some people I have worked with, TKD + progressive overload workouts drove increases in LBM (I know not that same as muscle) and fat loss during a recompl1
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KarblessKreature wrote: »Basically called the mesolimbic pathway. Search mesolimbic pathway and sugar and you’ll get many many many studies on it. Pick which ever you want. Basically stimulates how far your willing to go to get something. And sugar stimulates it just like a drug. Happy reading.
Like: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2714381/
Activated by both sugar and fat. Although, these are based on animal models.
Almost as if it's a good thing evolutionarily to seek out food.3 -
Back to the study. I'd be very interested in understanding or seeing if there were any additional benefits form CKD/TKD style keto programs where carbs are timed and/or refeeds are incorporated. I know for some people I have worked with, TKD + progressive overload workouts drove increases in LBM (I know not that same as muscle) and fat loss during a recompl
I'm interested in the findings on the reviews regarding disease. There are so many claims, I'd like the see what the evidence really says.1 -
I love it when people try to sound all knowledgeable and state things like "you can't fight the science," all while arguing things that "the science" doesn't actually say.4
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I don't understand the annoyance here. Even people known for their keto lifestyles would probably agree with this chart. I read Rob Wolf's "Wired to Eat" recently, and he stated that his jiu jitsu performance isn't optimal when in ketosis.
Maybe I just gravitate toward more rational folks.4 -
I’m extremely rational and not annoyed. But not on topic. So back to the topic.
Assuming all the participants will be fat adapted when they start the study? With CKD your carb loading larger amount for you workout days. So you can make sure to maximize gains? So you basically out of ketosis for couple of days a week. And risk staying out of ketosis longer/gaining fat? While with TKD Your just wanting to fuel your workouts. So one is able to work out more intensely? And keep fat burning at a higher level? So out of ketosis for a few hours?6 -
KarblessKreature wrote: »I’m extremely rational and not annoyed. But not on topic. So back to the topic.
Assuming all the participants will be fat adapted when they start the study? With CKD your carb loading larger amount for you workout days. So you can make sure to maximize gains? So you basically out of ketosis for couple of days a week. And risk staying out of ketosis longer/gaining fat? While with TKD Your just wanting to fuel your workouts. So one is able to work out more intensely? And keep fat burning at a higher level? So out of ketosis for a few hours?
You'd have to check the individual studies reviewed.
The chart isn't the findings of a single study, but rather represents an aggregate of the results of reviews of numerous studies.0 -
With many of the studies lacking control and being older, I really think a lot of the parts to come will have to focus more on the more recent stuff. Even the chart seems to state that nothing seems very solid, and the data within the studies also appears all over the map. Without proper controls, having a chart that shows a handful of people that varied in performance isn't very convincing of anything really.
I hope they have something more conclusive as time goes on and they get into the other parts of the review. It seems they plan to cover most of the angles people would be concerned with. I'm just not sure they have enough studies with enough of the properly controlled data to really make strong cases for some of the topics.1 -
So no new study coming just a compilation of most of the studies on the topic. Was hoping a new study. Think that’s why the Phinney/Volek one had such a drastic fat loss cause I believe they were all elite athletes. I’ve read most of the big keto studies. But I need to read/catch up on a lot of the other studies.
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robertw486 wrote: »With many of the studies lacking control and being older, I really think a lot of the parts to come will have to focus more on the more recent stuff. Even the chart seems to state that nothing seems very solid, and the data within the studies also appears all over the map. Without proper controls, having a chart that shows a handful of people that varied in performance isn't very convincing of anything really.
I hope they have something more conclusive as time goes on and they get into the other parts of the review. It seems they plan to cover most of the angles people would be concerned with. I'm just not sure they have enough studies with enough of the properly controlled data to really make strong cases for some of the topics.
Thinking the same thing. I’m sure some of the newer studies will shed some light on the subject. Just that most of the newer keto studies are based on diabetes and other such and not muscle performance.0 -
I think that if someone finds a way that (A) suits their caloric needs and (B) satiates them and (C) helps them either get healthy or stay healthy who cares what the freaking label to said way is?
I really enjoy fats. I am sure that I could do the Keto Diet without any issues with (B) or (C). However, not sure that (A) would work (due to training). I have not gone that far in my experimenting. Doing a lot of that lately (read: in the last three months). Yes, aware of the four different types of Keto Diet (including one for folks who train hard). But, playing with a lower carb diet and timing my carb intake around my training (now that I am finally back in the gym!!!!!!!!!).
One size does not fit all. There is no "hard and true" rule here....other than - and, yes, I am going to say this out loud - calories in exceeding calories out will result in weight gain and potentially increase body fat where as calories in less than calories out will result in weight loss and potentially decrease body fat.
How those "calories in" look (read: protein, carbs, fats in terms of % of overall calories) is up for everyone to figure out for themselves. Essentially. Better stated, protein intake is likely a constant, and the remaining caloric breakdown of fats | carbs is for everyone to figure out for themselves.
Just my take on this.0 -
My only concern with keto is the sheer amount of meat these people eat. It's insane.
Our earth is in a horrible way, and a lot of the destruction of forests and production of methane can be directly attributed to us humans eating way more meat than we need. Let's not even get into the over-fishing, and the fact that we use more than 75% of the worlds fertilizers on growing food for livestock instead of for humans.
Notice that these diets don't even exist outside of our rich nations? That's because they aren't sustainable for those folks. Unless you're literally an Inuit, then I give you a pass.
And if you go to any country where the folks can afford to eat normal healthy food, but not rich enough for "KETO" rates of obesity are lower. Funny huh? Take a look at Southern Asia. Tonnes of rice, obesity is rare. India, full of vegetarians and obesity is rare.
For environmental reasons alone I hope this diet doesn't catch on to become a sensation in our already over-privileged first world countries. We eat enough meat and cheese as it is. A sweet potato isn't going to make you fat. 20 sweet potatoes topped with marshmallows is the problem. Eating huge chunks of meat and cheese isn't the answer to that problem.5 -
LiveLoveFitFab wrote: »My only concern with keto is the sheer amount of meat these people eat. It's insane.
Our earth is in a horrible way, and a lot of the destruction of forests and production of methane can be directly attributed to us humans eating way more meat than we need. Let's not even get into the over-fishing, and the fact that we use more than 75% of the worlds fertilizers on growing food for livestock instead of for humans.
Notice that these diets don't even exist outside of our rich nations? That's because they aren't sustainable for those folks. Unless you're literally an Inuit, then I give you a pass.
And if you go to any country where the folks can afford to eat normal healthy food, but not rich enough for "KETO" rates of obesity are lower. Funny huh? Take a look at Southern Asia. Tonnes of rice, obesity is rare. India, full of vegetarians and obesity is rare.
For environmental reasons alone I hope this diet doesn't catch on to become a sensation in our already over-privileged first world countries. We eat enough meat and cheese as it is. A sweet potato isn't going to make you fat. 20 sweet potatoes topped with marshmallows is the problem. Eating huge chunks of meat and cheese isn't the answer to that problem.
Not sure how this applies to the topic. But I don’t eat tons of meat or dairy. I consume ~1g of protein per lb of lean muscle mass(not all from meat/dairy) No more than anyone else who trying to build muscle and usually less. Most of my fats are derived from plant sources. So not sure what your after. Keto is a moderate protein diet, fyi. Most don’t even go as high as 1g per lean lb, more like .5-.8. So I’m sure the ketoians are eating all the meat and dairy.0 -
When I read Menu examples like this - https://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/ketogenic-diet-menu.html
I assume that keto is meat and more meat, with a side of meat products. Yes there are low carb veggies in there, but every single meal is meat, eggs, cream, cheese, more meat, and some veggies.
Maybe what I'm trying to say is, aside from studies as to whether it's good for you or what it accomplishes fitness wise, it isn't good for the world as a whole to base your entire diet on eating so much meat. This is such a rich country eating plan that it is almost sickening. We got fat as a society being greedy, maybe the answer is being less greedy?0 -
LiveLoveFitFab wrote: »When I read Menu examples like this - https://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/ketogenic-diet-menu.html
I assume that keto is meat and more meat, with a side of meat products. Yes there are low carb veggies in there, but every single meal is meat, eggs, cream, cheese, more meat, and some veggies.
Maybe what I'm trying to say is, aside from studies as to whether it's good for you or what it accomplishes fitness wise, it isn't good for the world as a whole to base your entire diet on eating so much meat. This is such a rich country eating plan that it is almost sickening. We got fat as a society being greedy, maybe the answer is being less greedy?
What? It’s a fat based diet not protein based. I eat 1g or protein per lb of lean body weight. Not sure why that’s in anyway confusing.1 -
Been reading thru some of the studies. And the more I read the more I believe that they will not find any real difference between the different diets or at least nothing substantial. Just different ways to the same end. And slightly different time frames. Will keep on reading.1
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KarblessKreature wrote: »LiveLoveFitFab wrote: »When I read Menu examples like this - https://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/ketogenic-diet-menu.html
I assume that keto is meat and more meat, with a side of meat products. Yes there are low carb veggies in there, but every single meal is meat, eggs, cream, cheese, more meat, and some veggies.
Maybe what I'm trying to say is, aside from studies as to whether it's good for you or what it accomplishes fitness wise, it isn't good for the world as a whole to base your entire diet on eating so much meat. This is such a rich country eating plan that it is almost sickening. We got fat as a society being greedy, maybe the answer is being less greedy?
What? It’s a fat based diet not protein based. I eat 1g or protein per lb of lean body weight. Not sure why that’s in anyway confusing.
And meat has lots of fat, so...1 -
KarblessKreature wrote: »Been reading thru some of the studies. And the more I read the more I believe that they will not find any real difference between the different diets or at least nothing substantial. Just different ways to the same end. And slightly different time frames. Will keep on reading.
What end? The chart covered several different "ends", and I think that before the review is done, several more different ends are going to be covered.2 -
LiveLoveFitFab wrote: »When I read Menu examples like this - https://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/ketogenic-diet-menu.html
I assume that keto is meat and more meat, with a side of meat products. Yes there are low carb veggies in there, but every single meal is meat, eggs, cream, cheese, more meat, and some veggies.
Maybe what I'm trying to say is, aside from studies as to whether it's good for you or what it accomplishes fitness wise, it isn't good for the world as a whole to base your entire diet on eating so much meat. This is such a rich country eating plan that it is almost sickening. We got fat as a society being greedy, maybe the answer is being less greedy?
There is a very wide range of keto diets, including vegeterian based keto diets.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »KarblessKreature wrote: »LiveLoveFitFab wrote: »When I read Menu examples like this - https://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/ketogenic-diet-menu.html
I assume that keto is meat and more meat, with a side of meat products. Yes there are low carb veggies in there, but every single meal is meat, eggs, cream, cheese, more meat, and some veggies.
Maybe what I'm trying to say is, aside from studies as to whether it's good for you or what it accomplishes fitness wise, it isn't good for the world as a whole to base your entire diet on eating so much meat. This is such a rich country eating plan that it is almost sickening. We got fat as a society being greedy, maybe the answer is being less greedy?
What? It’s a fat based diet not protein based. I eat 1g or protein per lb of lean body weight. Not sure why that’s in anyway confusing.
And meat has lots of fat, so...
My daily keto is as follows
-low carb high fiber veggies mostly spinach and0 -
My keto diet is as follows
low carb high fiber veggies, mostly spinach 4-6 cups a day and avocado, 2x day
Nuts and seeds usually macadamia & hemp 1-2x day
Healthy oils, usually avocado/hemp/coconut/fish used to fill in fat cals
Leaner meats and eggs for main protein
I believe that one needs to ensure gut health.
Not in it for the Bacon
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What end? The chart covered several different "ends", and I think that before the review is done, several more different ends are going to be covered.
Since it’s a compilation of pervious studies it will just basically just tell us what we already know. Don’t think it will shed any new light. Hopefully it will be able to cross reference all the studies and give us better causation and not just correlation.
It will organize and put all the studies in one place which is good cause I haven’t read them all. Makes them easier to find. So back to the reading.0 -
so i finally decided to follow the link for this and come to find out that one of the researchers who contributed (Dr Brad Dieter) is on the nutrition team that I have been working with for close to the last 2 years
also if you want to see a list of the research that they used in the review:
http://sci-fit.net/2017/keto-study-collection/ - 200+ articles2
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