Do diets work?

DJ_Skywalker

Eeek .. I can’t keto and only have lean meat ... where’s the bacon?!?

lemurcat12

Irishman1970 wrote: »

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lemurcat12 wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

KeithWhiteJr wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

KeithWhiteJr wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

stanmann571 wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

stanmann571 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

are you asking me to provide with peer reviewed dietary analysis that a bacon western cheeseburger is less healthy than a chicken breast with balsamic salad?

No, people are asking specifically about the context of the overall diet. We are not asking you to compare two specific meals.

We're asking why the person who meets their nutritional needs with a variety of foods including a bacon cheeseburger is better off than the person who is meeting their nutritional needs while excluding bacon cheeseburgers (and, presumably, their components -- beef, bacon, cheese, and bread).

Foods don't exist in a vacuum, they exist in the context of an overall diet. That is what people are asking you about.

Although, a bacon cheeseburger is probably more balanced than a balsamic vinegar salad with chicken breast.

nah

---

2 meats and nitrates - lettuce onion ring and BBq sauce (sugar) vs. Chicken breast still lettuce - tomatos - cucumbers - hard boiled eggs vinegar AND 1/2 the calories

Well that's problem number 1. Who wants half the calories? Now I have to eat 2 salads. and you're probably still light on fat and protein

And what sort of criminal puts BBQ sauce on a bacon cheeseburger?

that is one of my many meals and I need the nutrition and don't want empty calories of breading bun sugar in the sauces - LOL BBQ - Carls Jr does

Why is your cheesburger in this scenario have a bun, onion rings and BBQ sauce on it, but the chicken doesn't have those things? Shouldn't they be equal to compare?

lean meat - sauteed onion rings and peppers a bit of mozzarella cheese maybe some crushed bacon - no bun no sauce in a lettuce wrap

Ok, but, you didn't even attempt to answer my question. Why cant I eat the burger that way? Why does it have to be on a bun, with deep-fried onion rings and BBQ sauce? To accurately compare, shouldn't the chicken breast be on a bun, with onion rings, smothered in BBQ sauce?

YOU CAAAAAAAN - my point was between the 2 that burger or a chicken breast with salad you can eat more nutritious food - if you are active and fit you need more nutrient dense food between the 2 - a Carls jr Bacon western Cheeseburger or a sald with chicken breast the later is the better choice for fitness

But didn't the Carl's Jr Bacon Western Cheeseburger originally come up because you were attempting to use it as some sort of stand-in for the typical cheeseburger?

Weren't you the one who did that while other people were arguing that cheeseburgers come in all sorts of forms and it's possible for all types of people to find a version that fits into their calorie and nutritional goals and there's nothing inherently unhealthy about foods that fall into the category of "cheeseburger"?

And all this in the context of you refusing to even explain why you are so convinced that someone who is meeting their nutritional needs but sometimes having a cheeseburger, even a Carl's Jr Bacon Western Cheeseburger, is going to be worse off.

Nope I used the 2 because the person thought I was part of the eat what you want as long as you stay within your calorie range

Well, are we talking weight loss (where they can work) or nutrition (where of course what you eat matters and some diets are bad and some good -- note: diet here means "way one eats")?

Of course, if you know anything about nutrition you know that there's no inherent nutritional difference between someone who only eats chicken breast as their protein vs. someone who eats a variety of protein sources, including occasional cheeseburgers.

Single meals do not make that much difference, it's the overall diet. And also a meal involving a cheeseburger can be nutrient dense, and in fact more nutrient dense than a meal involving a chicken breast (or 5, sigh).

If I like cheeseburgers and really want one, it is far more likely that making myself one (or even going out to dinner for one, although I wouldn't choose Carl Jr's, again, that seems to be your thing) will do more to deal with the temptation to overeat than having boneless skinless chicken breast (which I don't much care for). And I've never found that eating a cheeseburger makes me hungry the next day. I might save calories for it, but eh, that's not a huge trade off (I do this with meals I prefer at restaurants, like Indian food, all the time).

thus I said Chicken, Fish, Lean Red Meat

A burger can involve lean red meat.

So are you keto but anti sat fat?

Keto yes prefer lean meats and healthy fats when possible

Interesting, the keto folks around here seem to mostly think sat fat is fine.

I don't eat that much sat fat from other sources, so I was always fine getting some from an egg or pork chop (again, more fat in the ones from the farm) or chicken with skin or steak or leg of lamb or so on. (Not eating animal products now, at least for Lent.)

Anyway, eat a varied diet and it will still not be a huge amount. I guess if you want enormous volume of meat you are in a different boat, but that's not me, and wasn't when I was losing weight.

Unknown

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CSARdiver

Wynterbourne wrote: »

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CSARdiver wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

2 shot tequila
1 shot amaretto
1 shot triple sec
2 Shots Orange Juice
1 Shot Lime Juice

orange flavored sugar rimmer

Italian Margarita

The correct answer is Scotch.

You misspelled Wheated Bourbon.

The judges will accept this alternate entry.

lemurcat12

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

Eeek .. I can’t keto and only have lean meat ... where’s the bacon?!?

Apparently you get lots of mayo though.

I hate mayo, so that makes me cringe, but whatever.

Unknown

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DJ_Skywalker

lemurcat12 wrote: »

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DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

Eeek .. I can’t keto and only have lean meat ... where’s the bacon?!?

Apparently you get lots of mayo though.

I hate mayo, so that makes me cringe, but whatever.

Ya, I’m not a mayo fan either Gimme all the butter though ... and sausage

lemurcat12

Why is dairy fat (cream cheese) fine, but not fat in meat?

brittyn3

Irishman1970 wrote: »

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lemurcat12 wrote: »

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

Eeek .. I can’t keto and only have lean meat ... where’s the bacon?!?

Apparently you get lots of mayo though.

I hate mayo, so that makes me cringe, but whatever.

that and cream cheese for my low carb Quesadillas

but cream cheese is dairy???? And fatty??? And tortillas are made with lard????

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brittyn3

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

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lemurcat12 wrote: »

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

Eeek .. I can’t keto and only have lean meat ... where’s the bacon?!?

Apparently you get lots of mayo though.

I hate mayo, so that makes me cringe, but whatever.

Ya, I’m not a mayo fan either Gimme all the butter though ... and sausage

I love mayo - for all you mayo lovers I got one for you...

Giardiniera (relish style, pick your heat level), mix into mayo (I use light) : 50/50 or whatever ration you prefer. Have it with some nice crusty bread, crisp iceburg lettuce, and a really ripe beautiful tomato. Great on Italian beefs, chicken sandwiches/pitas, etc

You can thank me later.

stevencloser

"Bacon is quite healthy"

I can't even find a gif that accurately describes my facial expression right now.

brittyn3

stevencloser wrote: »

"Bacon is quite healthy"

I can't even find a gif that accurately describes my facial expression right now.

This close?

jessiferrrb

Irishman1970 wrote: »

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jessiferrrb wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

stevencloser wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

singingflutelady wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

KeithWhiteJr wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

Like I said you all eat whatever you want I really don't care - but I still hold firm - a salad with chicken breast is better than a Carls jr Cheeseburger

And a salad with a cut up cheeseburger on top is better than a double chicken rodeo sandwich from burger king.

nice moving bar you got here - I am speaking about a chicken breast plane you are talking about a BBQ sauce covered sandwich with white bread buns

Moving bar?

You're the one who has been changing the context of your "perfect meal" throughout the whole conversation.

First you were talking about chicken breast with lemon and bell pepper. Then it became salad with chicken and balsamic vinegar. Then we moved to chicken breast with some nuts and complex carbohydrates.

Please don't talk about moving the bar.

who said anything about a perfect meal all i said was a for the same calorie load you can get 4 times the amount of food and its more nutritious

What if you can't eat 4 times the food?

when you are trying to be fit you need the nutrients you can't get all your nutrition and a 1000 Calories burger and stay under your calorie load for the day unless you are an elite athlete that can burn those calories BTW 1000 calories is 5mile hike for the average 150 pound woman +/-

You can get all the micronutrients you need in a few hundred calories. Vegetables are awesome like that. What you need in protein and fats varies by your weight but the minimums are also just a few hundred calories. You can, in theory, get all the nutrition your body needs, your minimums, in below 1000 calories. The PSMF builds on that.

What your body doesn't need is 1000 calories of chicken breast when your maintenance calories is over 4000.
I still want to know whether the other 3000 are in your diet are also just "chicken and salad" or if you're eating something that actually has some calorie density that doesn't require you eating 10 pounds of food a day. Also your essential fats seem lacking.

Quinoa
Nuts
peanutbutter
Vegetables
Red lean meat
Cheeses
Chicken
Fish
butter and olive oil for cooking
Mayo for mixing
eggs
When I am in my growth cycles 4000+
When I am cutting 2800

and yes I seem to eat all day long

I don't understand why you consider BBQ sauce (mostly carbohydrates) to be empty calories but mayo (mostly fat) is somehow okay?

people eat enough sugar in their normal consumption I don;t want more

*You* don't want more. That doesn't mean that other people don't want carbohydrates.

Is there a logical reason why a food made mainly of a single macronutrient is "empty" if it's one type of macronutrient, but not "empty" if it's another macronutrient?

we - as a society - consume too much sugar 60 pound too much on average - so I elect to not consume as much as other - I feel too much sugar in detrimental to fitness

repeating bad math doesn't make it good math

or FACTS you just hate facts http://sugarscience.ucsf.edu/the-growing-concern-of-overconsumption/#.WoX7aXanF7g

we've been over this before. the 'average american' according to that article eats 82 grams a day or 66 pounds per year. (i don't know who the average american is - but i have not come close to that ever and hover between 20-40 with most days closer to 20 - but whatever, we'll just take that as written). the recommended is 25 grams daily or 20 pounds per year for women and 38 grams per day and 30 pounds per year for men. so the 'average american' is not consuming 66 pounds too much sugar, but roughly half that.

cwolfman13

stevencloser wrote: »

"Bacon is quite healthy"

I can't even find a gif that accurately describes my facial expression right now.

Well, it is...as long as it's not a topping on a burger...

estherdragonbat

brittyn3 wrote: »

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janejellyroll wrote: »

stanmann571 wrote: »

I just realized that our dear sweet Jane is arguing that it’s a good idea to eat cheeseburgers. I’m laughing right now.

And it’s only the contrarian who doesn’t see the humour

Amazingly, this is at least the second (possibly third) time I've been involved in a spirited defense of cheeseburgers here. I'm laughing too.

This is off topic, but a vegetarian friend made, seriously, the best meatballs I've ever had. He never even tasted them! I'm still drooling over them.

Irishman - you're just talking in circles. Your entire argument started because you believe (as you stated in many many previous posts) diets are bunk and fitness is for retention. Diets are extreme and not sustainable, but fitness [eating non "junk/bad" food, only eating "whole/clean" foods] is what's needed to be healthy. You're still failing to see the massive point that would end this entire debate - Everyone has a different definition of diet. To me a diet is what I eat every day, I have specific diets based on training etc. To you, a diet is something you will fail if you go on it. Can't you just agree to this and we all move on? Agree to disagree?

I'm ovo-lacto vegetarian, married to a meat-eater. I kid that I might make the best chicken I never tasted. (Of course, at this point, I'm just praying I didn't accidentally confuse my paprika and my cayenne, or there will be quite a bit of zing in the one that just came out of the oven.)

brittyn3

cwolfman13 wrote: »

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stevencloser wrote: »

"Bacon is quite healthy"

I can't even find a gif that accurately describes my facial expression right now.

Well, it is...as long as it's not a topping on a burger...

Unknown

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DJ_Skywalker

brittyn3 wrote: »

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DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

Eeek .. I can’t keto and only have lean meat ... where’s the bacon?!?

Apparently you get lots of mayo though.

I hate mayo, so that makes me cringe, but whatever.

Ya, I’m not a mayo fan either Gimme all the butter though ... and sausage

I love mayo - for all you mayo lovers I got one for you...

Giardiniera (relish style, pick your heat level), mix into mayo (I use light) : 50/50 or whatever ration you prefer. Have it with some nice crusty bread, crisp iceburg lettuce, and a really ripe beautiful tomato. Great on Italian beefs, chicken sandwiches/pitas, etc

You can thank me later.

I will eat mayo in my egg salad and tuna salad ... but don’t need on sandwiches like others do.

What is Giardiniera?

diannethegeek

Is this where we start talking about the fact that bacon is a class 1 carcinogen and context and dosage matter in all foods?

stevencloser

diannethegeek wrote: »

Is this where we start talking about the fact that bacon is a class 1 carcinogen and context and dosage matter in all foods?

Stop reading my mind!

estherdragonbat

TR0berts wrote: »

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janejellyroll wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

stanmann571 wrote: »

I just realized that our dear sweet Jane is arguing that it’s a good idea to eat cheeseburgers. I’m laughing right now.

And it’s only the contrarian who doesn’t see the humour

I noticed the same Even someone who may not eat at meat at the moment still understands the science here.
Sadly, I know a few other people in real life that would argue the same as he is ... too stubborn

I argue better choices and when given a choice i eat the better choice

Better only in your mind, my young padawan

hmmmmm you want to lose weight - a jelly donut or a chicken breast

Why stop there?

From the people who brought you "Carls Jr Bacon Western Cheeseburger versus chicken breast with some nuts":

A handful of Skittles or a bunch of unseasoned kale?

A tumbler of bourbon or a piece of grilled salmon?

A entire deep dish pizza with sausage or some undressed zucchini noodles?

A bag of potato chips or a small bowl of plain fat-free yogurt?

Coming to your town soon in "Dichotomous Food Choices that Nobody, I mean but nobody, Is Really Facing"!

Change bourbon to rum and the choice is clear.

I don't think I could drink a tumbler of ANYTHING alcoholic (unless we include mixed drinks involving fruit juice or something; I MIGHT be able to manage a tequila sunrise). Sadly, I don't eat fish either. I guess neither option's going to work for me. Bring on the Nestle salted caramel frozen Greek yogurt sandwiches!

janejellyroll

lemurcat12 wrote: »

Why is dairy fat (cream cheese) fine, but not fat in meat?

So confused right now.

brittyn3

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

show previous quotes

brittyn3 wrote: »

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

Eeek .. I can’t keto and only have lean meat ... where’s the bacon?!?

Apparently you get lots of mayo though.

I hate mayo, so that makes me cringe, but whatever.

Ya, I’m not a mayo fan either Gimme all the butter though ... and sausage

I love mayo - for all you mayo lovers I got one for you...

Giardiniera (relish style, pick your heat level), mix into mayo (I use light) : 50/50 or whatever ration you prefer. Have it with some nice crusty bread, crisp iceburg lettuce, and a really ripe beautiful tomato. Great on Italian beefs, chicken sandwiches/pitas, etc

You can thank me later.

I will eat mayo in my egg salad and tuna salad ... but don’t need on sandwiches like others do.

What is Giardiniera?

It may just be a Chicago thing, but it's like pickled peppers/veg in olive oil and seasoning. It's about the same amount of calories per table spoon as light mayo. If you can find it, I recommend it. It's fantastic on Italian deli sandwiches for one.

quiksylver296

estherdragonbat wrote: »

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TR0berts wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

stanmann571 wrote: »

I just realized that our dear sweet Jane is arguing that it’s a good idea to eat cheeseburgers. I’m laughing right now.

And it’s only the contrarian who doesn’t see the humour

I noticed the same Even someone who may not eat at meat at the moment still understands the science here.
Sadly, I know a few other people in real life that would argue the same as he is ... too stubborn

I argue better choices and when given a choice i eat the better choice

Better only in your mind, my young padawan

hmmmmm you want to lose weight - a jelly donut or a chicken breast

Why stop there?

From the people who brought you "Carls Jr Bacon Western Cheeseburger versus chicken breast with some nuts":

A handful of Skittles or a bunch of unseasoned kale?

A tumbler of bourbon or a piece of grilled salmon?

A entire deep dish pizza with sausage or some undressed zucchini noodles?

A bag of potato chips or a small bowl of plain fat-free yogurt?

Coming to your town soon in "Dichotomous Food Choices that Nobody, I mean but nobody, Is Really Facing"!

Change bourbon to rum and the choice is clear.

I don't think I could drink a tumbler of ANYTHING alcoholic (unless we include mixed drinks involving fruit juice or something; I MIGHT be able to manage a tequila sunrise). Sadly, I don't eat fish either. I guess neither option's going to work for me. Bring on the Nestle salted caramel frozen Greek yogurt sandwiches!

Wait!!! What?!?

Dinner edit: Bacon onion ring cheeseburger, with one of those for dessert!

singingflutelady

diannethegeek wrote: »

Is this where we start talking about the fact that bacon is a class 1 carcinogen and context and dosage matter in all foods?

I have 0% risk of getting colorectal cancer. I am going to gorge myself on bacon!

estherdragonbat

janejellyroll wrote: »

show previous quotes

TR0berts wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

Irishman1970 wrote: »

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

stanmann571 wrote: »

I just realized that our dear sweet Jane is arguing that it’s a good idea to eat cheeseburgers. I’m laughing right now.

And it’s only the contrarian who doesn’t see the humour

I noticed the same Even someone who may not eat at meat at the moment still understands the science here.
Sadly, I know a few other people in real life that would argue the same as he is ... too stubborn

I argue better choices and when given a choice i eat the better choice

Better only in your mind, my young padawan

hmmmmm you want to lose weight - a jelly donut or a chicken breast

Why stop there?

From the people who brought you "Carls Jr Bacon Western Cheeseburger versus chicken breast with some nuts":

A handful of Skittles or a bunch of unseasoned kale?

A tumbler of bourbon or a piece of grilled salmon?

A entire deep dish pizza with sausage or some undressed zucchini noodles?

A bag of potato chips or a small bowl of plain fat-free yogurt?

Coming to your town soon in "Dichotomous Food Choices that Nobody, I mean but nobody, Is Really Facing"!

Change bourbon to rum and the choice is clear.

I feel like a tumbler of rum *and* some grilled salmon might count as a balanced pirate meal.

You need hardtack biscuit for carbs.

janejellyroll

brittyn3 wrote: »

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DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

brittyn3 wrote: »

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

DJ_Skywalker wrote: »

Eeek .. I can’t keto and only have lean meat ... where’s the bacon?!?

Apparently you get lots of mayo though.

I hate mayo, so that makes me cringe, but whatever.

Ya, I’m not a mayo fan either Gimme all the butter though ... and sausage

I love mayo - for all you mayo lovers I got one for you...

Giardiniera (relish style, pick your heat level), mix into mayo (I use light) : 50/50 or whatever ration you prefer. Have it with some nice crusty bread, crisp iceburg lettuce, and a really ripe beautiful tomato. Great on Italian beefs, chicken sandwiches/pitas, etc

You can thank me later.

I will eat mayo in my egg salad and tuna salad ... but don’t need on sandwiches like others do.

What is Giardiniera?

It may just be a Chicago thing, but it's like picked peppers/veg in olive oil and seasoning. It's about the same amount of calories per table spoon as light mayo. If you can find it, I recommend it. It's fantastic on Italian deli sandwiches for one.

It's magical on sandwiches.

quiksylver296

singingflutelady wrote: »

show previous quotes

diannethegeek wrote: »

Is this where we start talking about the fact that bacon is a class 1 carcinogen and context and dosage matter in all foods?

I have 0% risk of getting colorectal cancer. I am going to gorge myself on bacon!

There's an upside to anything! Lucky you!

diannethegeek

singingflutelady wrote: »

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diannethegeek wrote: »

Is this where we start talking about the fact that bacon is a class 1 carcinogen and context and dosage matter in all foods?

I have 0% risk of getting colorectal cancer. I am going to gorge myself on bacon!

Fair enough :flowerforyou: I still eat bacon because I don't care about a 17% increase to my chances I don't eat it often enough that it would be an issue for me. It just seemed strange, given the context of this thread, that bacon became the holy grail of foods.