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Do diets work?
Replies
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Irishman1970 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »
are you asking me to provide with peer reviewed dietary analysis that a bacon western cheeseburger is less healthy than a chicken breast with balsamic salad?
No, people are asking specifically about the context of the overall diet. We are not asking you to compare two specific meals.
We're asking why the person who meets their nutritional needs with a variety of foods including a bacon cheeseburger is better off than the person who is meeting their nutritional needs while excluding bacon cheeseburgers (and, presumably, their components -- beef, bacon, cheese, and bread).
Foods don't exist in a vacuum, they exist in the context of an overall diet. That is what people are asking you about.
Although, a bacon cheeseburger is probably more balanced than a balsamic vinegar salad with chicken breast.
nah
2 meats and nitrates - lettuce onion ring and BBq sauce (sugar) vs. Chicken breast still lettuce - tomatos - cucumbers - hard boiled eggs vinegar AND 1/2 the calories
Well that's problem number 1. Who wants half the calories? Now I have to eat 2 salads. and you're probably still light on fat and protein
And what sort of criminal puts BBQ sauce on a bacon cheeseburger?
that is one of my many meals and I need the nutrition and don't want empty calories of breading bun sugar in the sauces - LOL BBQ - Carls Jr does
Why is your cheesburger in this scenario have a bun, onion rings and BBQ sauce on it, but the chicken doesn't have those things? Shouldn't they be equal to compare?
lean meat - sauteed onion rings and peppers a bit of mozzarella cheese maybe some crushed bacon - no bun no sauce in a lettuce wrap
Ok, but, you didn't even attempt to answer my question. Why cant I eat the burger that way? Why does it have to be on a bun, with deep-fried onion rings and BBQ sauce? To accurately compare, shouldn't the chicken breast be on a bun, with onion rings, smothered in BBQ sauce?
YOU CAAAAAAAN - my point was between the 2 that burger or a chicken breast with salad you can eat more nutritious food - if you are active and fit you need more nutrient dense food between the 2 - a Carls jr Bacon western Cheeseburger or a sald with chicken breast the later is the better choice for fitness
You spent a lot of time saying people who eat anything other than that are going to die sooner. You're back peddling now with all of your posts.
Yep! He said I was gonna die sooner than he will ... cuz he eats better
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Irishman1970 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »
are you asking me to provide with peer reviewed dietary analysis that a bacon western cheeseburger is less healthy than a chicken breast with balsamic salad?
No, people are asking specifically about the context of the overall diet. We are not asking you to compare two specific meals.
We're asking why the person who meets their nutritional needs with a variety of foods including a bacon cheeseburger is better off than the person who is meeting their nutritional needs while excluding bacon cheeseburgers (and, presumably, their components -- beef, bacon, cheese, and bread).
Foods don't exist in a vacuum, they exist in the context of an overall diet. That is what people are asking you about.
Although, a bacon cheeseburger is probably more balanced than a balsamic vinegar salad with chicken breast.
nah
2 meats and nitrates - lettuce onion ring and BBq sauce (sugar) vs. Chicken breast still lettuce - tomatos - cucumbers - hard boiled eggs vinegar AND 1/2 the calories
Well that's problem number 1. Who wants half the calories? Now I have to eat 2 salads. and you're probably still light on fat and protein
And what sort of criminal puts BBQ sauce on a bacon cheeseburger?
that is one of my many meals and I need the nutrition and don't want empty calories of breading bun sugar in the sauces - LOL BBQ - Carls Jr does
Why is your cheesburger in this scenario have a bun, onion rings and BBQ sauce on it, but the chicken doesn't have those things? Shouldn't they be equal to compare?
lean meat - sauteed onion rings and peppers a bit of mozzarella cheese maybe some crushed bacon - no bun no sauce in a lettuce wrap
Ok, but, you didn't even attempt to answer my question. Why cant I eat the burger that way? Why does it have to be on a bun, with deep-fried onion rings and BBQ sauce? To accurately compare, shouldn't the chicken breast be on a bun, with onion rings, smothered in BBQ sauce?
YOU CAAAAAAAN - my point was between the 2 that burger or a chicken breast with salad you can eat more nutritious food - if you are active and fit you need more nutrient dense food between the 2 - a Carls jr Bacon western Cheeseburger or a sald with chicken breast the later is the better choice for fitness
But it isn't much of a point when you use such extremes. I can easily have a salad with a cheesburger cut up on it. Is the cheeseburger still bad choice for "fitness"?
When I'm grilling my summertime burgers I typically grill onions and tomatoes to top it...sometimes saute some mushrooms and always roasted green chiles. A garden salad is usually my side. I guess I'm not very fit...
I can go out and ride a 1/2 century pretty easy though...not sure what that has to do with my burger...
funny how your throw a 50 mile bike ride into a thread where OP is talking about fad diets but ok - welcome to the world of .0001% of the population that will ride a 50
You were talking about burgers not being a good fitness choice...riding a 1/2 century is fitness related...my burger really isn't...10 -
Irishman1970 wrote: »Like I said you all eat whatever you want I really don't care - but I still hold firm - a salad with chicken breast is better than a Carls jr Cheeseburger
Sure because it totally makes sense than a single meal is "better" than another meal in every single circumstance and dietary context for every single type of person. That's not at all a ridiculous claim.
Whether you're a starving person rescued from a mine collapse to a baby having their first meal of solid food to a eldery person recovering from stomach flu to a teenager trying to put on muscle weight to a middle aged office worker preparing for the long run in their marathon training to a cancer patient who is trying to maintain their weight while undergoing chemo to a woman in her 20s trying to lose 30 pounds, there's one single meal that is "better" for every human on earth regardless of their situation and circumstance and that meal can be determined without understanding anything about what other meals a person is eating and what they're doing.
Truly, this is the point of view I'd expect from someone who had read nothing of substance about nutrition and fitness. Your absolute refusal to consider reality and your determination to cling tight to your received myths about nutrition is almost admirable. Nothing, I mean nothing, is getting in there.25 -
Irishman1970 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »
are you asking me to provide with peer reviewed dietary analysis that a bacon western cheeseburger is less healthy than a chicken breast with balsamic salad?
No, people are asking specifically about the context of the overall diet. We are not asking you to compare two specific meals.
We're asking why the person who meets their nutritional needs with a variety of foods including a bacon cheeseburger is better off than the person who is meeting their nutritional needs while excluding bacon cheeseburgers (and, presumably, their components -- beef, bacon, cheese, and bread).
Foods don't exist in a vacuum, they exist in the context of an overall diet. That is what people are asking you about.
Although, a bacon cheeseburger is probably more balanced than a balsamic vinegar salad with chicken breast.
nah
2 meats and nitrates - lettuce onion ring and BBq sauce (sugar) vs. Chicken breast still lettuce - tomatos - cucumbers - hard boiled eggs vinegar AND 1/2 the calories
Well that's problem number 1. Who wants half the calories? Now I have to eat 2 salads. and you're probably still light on fat and protein
And what sort of criminal puts BBQ sauce on a bacon cheeseburger?
that is one of my many meals and I need the nutrition and don't want empty calories of breading bun sugar in the sauces - LOL BBQ - Carls Jr does
Why is your cheesburger in this scenario have a bun, onion rings and BBQ sauce on it, but the chicken doesn't have those things? Shouldn't they be equal to compare?
lean meat - sauteed onion rings and peppers a bit of mozzarella cheese maybe some crushed bacon - no bun no sauce in a lettuce wrap
Ok, but, you didn't even attempt to answer my question. Why cant I eat the burger that way? Why does it have to be on a bun, with deep-fried onion rings and BBQ sauce? To accurately compare, shouldn't the chicken breast be on a bun, with onion rings, smothered in BBQ sauce?
YOU CAAAAAAAN - my point was between the 2 that burger or a chicken breast with salad you can eat more nutritious food - if you are active and fit you need more nutrient dense food between the 2 - a Carls jr Bacon western Cheeseburger or a sald with chicken breast the later is the better choice for fitness
But it isn't much of a point when you use such extremes. I can easily have a salad with a cheesburger cut up on it. Is the cheeseburger still bad choice for "fitness"?
When I'm grilling my summertime burgers I typically grill onions and tomatoes to top it...sometimes saute some mushrooms and always roasted green chiles. A garden salad is usually my side. I guess I'm not very fit...
I can go out and ride a 1/2 century pretty easy though...not sure what that has to do with my burger...
funny how your throw a 50 mile bike ride into a thread where OP is talking about fad diets but ok - welcome to the world of .0001% of the population that will ride a 50
The OP is the system who split this thread into the debate board so we could debate it. You know, by providing links and letting the thread drift and stuff. I don't think you read past the subject line.7 -
Irishman1970 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »
are you asking me to provide with peer reviewed dietary analysis that a bacon western cheeseburger is less healthy than a chicken breast with balsamic salad?
No, people are asking specifically about the context of the overall diet. We are not asking you to compare two specific meals.
We're asking why the person who meets their nutritional needs with a variety of foods including a bacon cheeseburger is better off than the person who is meeting their nutritional needs while excluding bacon cheeseburgers (and, presumably, their components -- beef, bacon, cheese, and bread).
Foods don't exist in a vacuum, they exist in the context of an overall diet. That is what people are asking you about.
Although, a bacon cheeseburger is probably more balanced than a balsamic vinegar salad with chicken breast.
nah
2 meats and nitrates - lettuce onion ring and BBq sauce (sugar) vs. Chicken breast still lettuce - tomatos - cucumbers - hard boiled eggs vinegar AND 1/2 the calories
Well that's problem number 1. Who wants half the calories? Now I have to eat 2 salads. and you're probably still light on fat and protein
And what sort of criminal puts BBQ sauce on a bacon cheeseburger?
that is one of my many meals and I need the nutrition and don't want empty calories of breading bun sugar in the sauces - LOL BBQ - Carls Jr does
Why is your cheesburger in this scenario have a bun, onion rings and BBQ sauce on it, but the chicken doesn't have those things? Shouldn't they be equal to compare?
lean meat - sauteed onion rings and peppers a bit of mozzarella cheese maybe some crushed bacon - no bun no sauce in a lettuce wrap
Ok, but, you didn't even attempt to answer my question. Why cant I eat the burger that way? Why does it have to be on a bun, with deep-fried onion rings and BBQ sauce? To accurately compare, shouldn't the chicken breast be on a bun, with onion rings, smothered in BBQ sauce?
YOU CAAAAAAAN - my point was between the 2 that burger or a chicken breast with salad you can eat more nutritious food - if you are active and fit you need more nutrient dense food between the 2 - a Carls jr Bacon western Cheeseburger or a sald with chicken breast the later is the better choice for fitness
But didn't the Carl's Jr Bacon Western Cheeseburger originally come up because you were attempting to use it as some sort of stand-in for the typical cheeseburger?
Weren't you the one who did that while other people were arguing that cheeseburgers come in all sorts of forms and it's possible for all types of people to find a version that fits into their calorie and nutritional goals and there's nothing inherently unhealthy about foods that fall into the category of "cheeseburger"?
And all this in the context of you refusing to even explain why you are so convinced that someone who is meeting their nutritional needs but sometimes having a cheeseburger, even a Carl's Jr Bacon Western Cheeseburger, is going to be worse off.
Nope I used the 2 because the person thought I was part of the eat what you want as long as you stay within your calorie range - I posted that I am in the camp of quality food vs cheeseburgers - NOW is there nutrition in a Carls Jr Burger YES - but there are MUCH BETTER CHOICES - sucks as a good healthy salad with chicken breast and you can consume more staying under you calories which will curb hunger cravings
Yes, so you *were* the person who introduced this specific Carl's Jr cheeseburger into the conversation.
Not everyone is a volume eater. Some people feel better when they have meals that are more calorie-dense.
Consuming more food is a priority for you. It isn't for everyone.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »Like I said you all eat whatever you want I really don't care - but I still hold firm - a salad with chicken breast is better than a Carls jr Cheeseburger
Sure because it totally makes sense than a single meal is "better" than another meal in every single circumstance and dietary context for every single type of person. That's not at all a ridiculous claim.
Whether you're a starving person rescued from a mine collapse to a baby having their first meal of solid food to a eldery person recovering from stomach flu to a teenager trying to put on muscle weight to a middle aged office worker preparing for the long run in their marathon training to a cancer patient who is trying to maintain their weight while undergoing chemo to a woman in her 20s trying to lose 30 pounds, there's one single meal that is "better" for every human on earth regardless of their situation and circumstance and that meal can be determined without understanding anything about what other meals a person is eating and what they're doing.
Truly, this is the point of view I'd expect from someone who had read nothing of substance about nutrition and fitness. Your absolute refusal to consider reality and cling tight to your received myths about nutrition is almost admirable. Nothing, I mean nothing, is getting in there.
And seriously orthorexia nervosa...9 -
Irishman1970 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »Like I said you all eat whatever you want I really don't care - but I still hold firm - a salad with chicken breast is better than a Carls jr Cheeseburger
I prefer to look at things in the context of the whole and not drown in the minutia of one particular meal...As fitness and health go, the context of the whole is far more important than the minutia of one particular meal.
when that meal is half your calories for the day it is no longer 1 particular meal - it now becomes half you calories for the day
If a meal has over a certain amount of calories it's no longer a meal?
What kind of word salad voodoo are you practicing here?
Of course it's still a meal. It's just a higher calorie meal.
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I just realized that our dear sweet Jane is arguing that it’s a good idea to eat cheeseburgers. I’m laughing right now.
And it’s only the contrarian who doesn’t see the humour22 -
stanmann571 wrote: »I just realized that our dear sweet Jane is arguing that it’s a good idea to eat cheeseburgers. I’m laughing right now.
And it’s only the contrarian who doesn’t see the humour
I was going to say the same...Lol8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »
are you asking me to provide with peer reviewed dietary analysis that a bacon western cheeseburger is less healthy than a chicken breast with balsamic salad?
No, people are asking specifically about the context of the overall diet. We are not asking you to compare two specific meals.
We're asking why the person who meets their nutritional needs with a variety of foods including a bacon cheeseburger is better off than the person who is meeting their nutritional needs while excluding bacon cheeseburgers (and, presumably, their components -- beef, bacon, cheese, and bread).
Foods don't exist in a vacuum, they exist in the context of an overall diet. That is what people are asking you about.
Although, a bacon cheeseburger is probably more balanced than a balsamic vinegar salad with chicken breast.
nah
2 meats and nitrates - lettuce onion ring and BBq sauce (sugar) vs. Chicken breast still lettuce - tomatos - cucumbers - hard boiled eggs vinegar AND 1/2 the calories
Well that's problem number 1. Who wants half the calories? Now I have to eat 2 salads. and you're probably still light on fat and protein
And what sort of criminal puts BBQ sauce on a bacon cheeseburger?
that is one of my many meals and I need the nutrition and don't want empty calories of breading bun sugar in the sauces - LOL BBQ - Carls Jr does
Why is your cheesburger in this scenario have a bun, onion rings and BBQ sauce on it, but the chicken doesn't have those things? Shouldn't they be equal to compare?
lean meat - sauteed onion rings and peppers a bit of mozzarella cheese maybe some crushed bacon - no bun no sauce in a lettuce wrap
Ok, but, you didn't even attempt to answer my question. Why cant I eat the burger that way? Why does it have to be on a bun, with deep-fried onion rings and BBQ sauce? To accurately compare, shouldn't the chicken breast be on a bun, with onion rings, smothered in BBQ sauce?
YOU CAAAAAAAN - my point was between the 2 that burger or a chicken breast with salad you can eat more nutritious food - if you are active and fit you need more nutrient dense food between the 2 - a Carls jr Bacon western Cheeseburger or a sald with chicken breast the later is the better choice for fitness
But didn't the Carl's Jr Bacon Western Cheeseburger originally come up because you were attempting to use it as some sort of stand-in for the typical cheeseburger?
Weren't you the one who did that while other people were arguing that cheeseburgers come in all sorts of forms and it's possible for all types of people to find a version that fits into their calorie and nutritional goals and there's nothing inherently unhealthy about foods that fall into the category of "cheeseburger"?
And all this in the context of you refusing to even explain why you are so convinced that someone who is meeting their nutritional needs but sometimes having a cheeseburger, even a Carl's Jr Bacon Western Cheeseburger, is going to be worse off.
Nope I used the 2 because the person thought I was part of the eat what you want as long as you stay within your calorie range - I posted that I am in the camp of quality food vs cheeseburgers - NOW is there nutrition in a Carls Jr Burger YES - but there are MUCH BETTER CHOICES - sucks as a good healthy salad with chicken breast and you can consume more staying under you calories which will curb hunger cravings
Yes, so you *were* the person who introduced this specific Carl's Jr cheeseburger into the conversation.
Not everyone is a volume eater. Some people feel better when they have meals that are more calorie-dense.
Consuming more food is a priority for you. It isn't for everyone.
Some people CAN NOT volume eat. I, for example, have gastroparesis. If I volume ate I'd be in severe pain and vomiting non stop. Salad is also a no no as I am low fiber and it would rip my insides apart. Some people need calorie dense foods to meet their calorie needs.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »Like I said you all eat whatever you want I really don't care - but I still hold firm - a salad with chicken breast is better than a Carls jr Cheeseburger
Sure because it totally makes sense than a single meal is "better" than another meal in every single circumstance and dietary context for every single type of person. That's not at all a ridiculous claim.
Whether you're a starving person rescued from a mine collapse to a baby having their first meal of solid food to a eldery person recovering from stomach flu to a teenager trying to put on muscle weight to a middle aged office worker preparing for the long run in their marathon training to a cancer patient who is trying to maintain their weight while undergoing chemo to a woman in her 20s trying to lose 30 pounds, there's one single meal that is "better" for every human on earth regardless of their situation and circumstance and that meal can be determined without understanding anything about what other meals a person is eating and what they're doing.
Truly, this is the point of view I'd expect from someone who had read nothing of substance about nutrition and fitness. Your absolute refusal to consider reality and cling tight to your received myths about nutrition is almost admirable. Nothing, I mean nothing, is getting in there.
God, I wish we had the awesome button still...9 -
KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »Like I said you all eat whatever you want I really don't care - but I still hold firm - a salad with chicken breast is better than a Carls jr Cheeseburger
And a salad with a cut up cheeseburger on top is better than a double chicken rodeo sandwich from burger king.
Exactly. I can find tons of chicken salads that are absolute calorie bombs.
1) This doesn't make them inherently bad foods
2) It doesn't mean that "salad with chicken" is an inherently flawed food category or one that must be avoided by anyone with an interest in fitness7 -
Irishman1970 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »Like I said you all eat whatever you want I really don't care - but I still hold firm - a salad with chicken breast is better than a Carls jr Cheeseburger
And a salad with a cut up cheeseburger on top is better than a double chicken rodeo sandwich from burger king.
nice moving bar you got here - I am speaking about a chicken breast plane you are talking about a BBQ sauce covered sandwich with white bread buns
Moving bar?
You're the one who has been changing the context of your "perfect meal" throughout the whole conversation.
First you were talking about chicken breast with lemon and bell pepper. Then it became salad with chicken and balsamic vinegar. Then we moved to chicken breast with some nuts and complex carbohydrates.
Please don't talk about moving the bar.11 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »Like I said you all eat whatever you want I really don't care - but I still hold firm - a salad with chicken breast is better than a Carls jr Cheeseburger
And a salad with a cut up cheeseburger on top is better than a double chicken rodeo sandwich from burger king.
nice moving bar you got here - I am speaking about a chicken breast plane you are talking about a BBQ sauce covered sandwich with white bread buns
Moving bar?
You're the one who has been changing the context of your "perfect meal" throughout the whole conversation.
First you were talking about chicken breast with lemon and bell pepper. Then it became salad with chicken and balsamic vinegar. Then we moved to chicken breast with some nuts and complex carbohydrates.
Please don't talk about moving the bar.
Can we just move to the bar20 -
stanmann571 wrote: »I just realized that our dear sweet Jane is arguing that it’s a good idea to eat cheeseburgers. I’m laughing right now.
And it’s only the contrarian who doesn’t see the humour
I noticed the same
Even someone who may not eat at meat at the moment still understands the science here.
Sadly, I know a few other people in real life that would argue the same as he is ... too stubborn4 -
Irishman1970 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »Like I said you all eat whatever you want I really don't care - but I still hold firm - a salad with chicken breast is better than a Carls jr Cheeseburger
And a salad with a cut up cheeseburger on top is better than a double chicken rodeo sandwich from burger king.
nice moving bar you got here - I am speaking about a chicken breast plane you are talking about a BBQ sauce covered sandwich with white bread buns
Moving bar?
You're the one who has been changing the context of your "perfect meal" throughout the whole conversation.
First you were talking about chicken breast with lemon and bell pepper. Then it became salad with chicken and balsamic vinegar. Then we moved to chicken breast with some nuts and complex carbohydrates.
Please don't talk about moving the bar.
who said anything about a perfect meal all i said was a for the same calorie load you can get 4 times the amount of food and its more nutritious
What if you can't eat 4 times the food?5 -
Yeah, all diets work but most people don't know WHY they work so it would make sense that they have no clue how to maintain (or even get to goal if their accidental deficit isn't being created)
CICO applies whether you count or not.0 -
stanmann571 wrote: »I just realized that our dear sweet Jane is arguing that it’s a good idea to eat cheeseburgers. I’m laughing right now.
And it’s only the contrarian who doesn’t see the humour
Amazingly, this is at least the second (possibly third) time I've been involved in a spirited defense of cheeseburgers here. I'm laughing too.23 -
You're under the mistaken belief that everyone has the same nutritional needs. What's healthy for you isn't necessarily for someone else. Do you think it's healthy for someone in kidney failure to eat 4 chicken breasts? Or someone with Crohn's to eat salad? Or someone with gastroparesis to eat a large volume of food?12
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Irishman1970 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »KeithWhiteJr wrote: »Irishman1970 wrote: »Like I said you all eat whatever you want I really don't care - but I still hold firm - a salad with chicken breast is better than a Carls jr Cheeseburger
And a salad with a cut up cheeseburger on top is better than a double chicken rodeo sandwich from burger king.
nice moving bar you got here - I am speaking about a chicken breast plane you are talking about a BBQ sauce covered sandwich with white bread buns
Moving bar?
You're the one who has been changing the context of your "perfect meal" throughout the whole conversation.
First you were talking about chicken breast with lemon and bell pepper. Then it became salad with chicken and balsamic vinegar. Then we moved to chicken breast with some nuts and complex carbohydrates.
Please don't talk about moving the bar.
who said anything about a perfect meal all i said was a for the same calorie load you can get 4 times the amount of food and its more nutritious
At this point, I don't know if you're outright lying or simply can't remember all of the ludicrous things you've said in this thread.
13
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