Are there really no bad carbs?

cmriverside

You must be new here, OP. Or you are resentful/envious.

This argument has been thoroughly hashed out hundreds of times, in thousands of posts in every section of this forum.

Maybe - know your audience.

People who have food fear can get into a cycle of restricting and binging. Anxiety about "bad" foods leads a lot of people to develop really unhealthy attitudes about food choices.

Food is just food. Enjoy all the foods! Stay within a calorie goal. That's all we're saying.

The satiety/nutrition argument is simply a separate thing.

lemurcat12

JanetBiard wrote: »

I know that I am going to be shot down in flames for saying this but I have become increasingly fed up by the people posting on MFP that there are no such things as bad carbs. This is really poor advice. The theory that as long as you maintain a calorie deficit you will lose weight may be true but it is appalling advice.

What is commonly said (including by me) is that there are no bad foods, but that foods differ as to their macro and micronutrient content and that you should eat a good diet (which would be sufficient with respect to micros and macros and calorie appropriate). Something higher cal and lower nutrient contained within such a diet would not be "bad," that's a silly way to think of nutrition.

To take that as "don't think about anything but calorie deficit for any purpose" is your own spin, not what is said, and is a bizarre interpretation.

On this basis you are suggesting that a diet of only cake and cookies is as valid as one full of vegetables, and as likely to lead to weight loss. That is simply wrong.

(A) No one has ever suggested a diet of only cake and cookies, and I try to give people enough credit to think that they wouldn't eat such a diet, as that would be obviously not nutritionally adequate and also ridiculous and not what anyone would actually WANT to eat.

(B) Cakes and cookies are not "bad carbs" for various reasons, but in particular because they get as many of their calories from fat as carbs, so calling them "carbs" is senseless. Why not call them "bad fats"? Reason: there's currently weird demonization of carbs.

On the cake diet I would feel dreadful, and I am setting myself up for failure as I am unlikely to feel satisfied with the portions of cake I can eat to stay in deficit.

Also presumably you'd miss other foods. I would assume someone would know all this and not think an all cake diet was a good idea even if I did not -- as I always do -- say that a good diet is important for nutrition.

This does not make cake a "bad food" (or a "bad carb," since again, it's got plenty of fat so isn't a carb at all, but a mixed macro food). I would feel terrible on an avocado only diet, but I think avocados are a great food.

Learning how to eat a nutritionally sound diet which is satisfying, energising and likely to stop me getting diabetes is part of the journey that people need to be on if they want to lose weight permanently. You can all call this woo and tell me the problem with cake is not the carbs it is the fat but really? Eating highly processed carbs with no fibre, lots of added sugars and god knows what chemicals are simply not a help if you are trying to lose weight.

The problem with cake (if any) is that it's high cal, low in many nutrients that people need (including protein and fiber and healthy fats), and for many people likely to be overeaten. If you eat a piece within your weekly or daily calorie allotment while getting in your nutrients, it's perfectly fine, however.

I'm picky about cake and ate it rarely even when I was fat and didn't watch calories, but for example I think cheese has many of the same qualities as cake -- high cal, low in most nutrients I find less prevalent in my diet (including protein, fiber, and healthy fats, as well as various micros), and easy to overeat if you are not careful. Yet I have some cheese most days with my meals or as a snack and enjoy it and don't see a reason to call it a bad food.

Is this really so hard to understand that you must interpret it as "eat a diet of only cake"? I really don't see how that's possible unless you are trying really hard to distort what is said. I wish you'd explain to me what about what I have just said seems like I am saying nutrition does not matter.

CarvedTones

Of course there are bad carbs. I found several way in the back the last time I cleaned out the fridge...

LifeWithPie

Why so angry Janet?

lemurcat12

JanetBiard wrote: »

Making suggestions to reduce refined highly processed carbs would be helpful to people. But time after time I see people who ask about carbs getting the answer “there are no bad carbs” and anyone who suggests otherwise gets a load of woos added as a response. It is not supportive of the people who are asking for help or the people who are trying to make helpful suggestions.

This is simply untrue. When people ask about carbs I might say there is no reason to focus on carbs specifically unless you find that they affect satiety (experiment and see), but that one should focus on eating a healthful, satiating diet, and that often that means making sure you include nutrient dense foods.

I frequently see people suggesting that treat foods be moderated (reduced if one is eating them in excess) or added in after one adds in sufficient protein, veg, healthy fats, so on.

There are different ways to create a healthful diet and I often see people being aided in this. I wonder why you think otherwise. I also wonder how someone thinks it's not obvious that if one is eating lots of sweets or soda (or added fats, IMO) that one would cut back on those foods. It's hardly like that's a secret. If one finds that a challenge, many strategies are given. None of that requires (or makes sensible) that one inaccurately refer to junk foods* as "bad carbs."

Also not everyone has the same issues with their diet. Maybe yours were highly processed carbs. Mine were overall portion sizes, some emotional eating, and especially carelessness with added fats like olive oil.

*Some hate the term junk foods, but I think it's emotionally neutral, just a colloquialism, and useful to refer to any foods that are high cal, lower nutrient snack or dessert foods.

lemurcat12

CarvedTones wrote: »

Of course there are bad carbs. I found several way in the back the last time I cleaned out the fridge...

This is true. I just sadly tossed a sweet potato that had some mold on it. I usually manage to avoid such things, though.

WinoGelato

The straw man is strong with this one...

WinoGelato

amusedmonkey wrote: »

Don't look at bad carbs as a single food single context thing. Everything is about context and dosage, and that's what is being said (but not heard because it sounds counterintuitive to some).

Think about water: water is not bad, it's good and necessary in fact. It can be very healthy. That's a sound statement.
Now think about water in context:
Does the above statement being true make the following statements true?
1. Having a diet that has nothing but water is as good as having a varied balanced diet.
2. Drinking 20 liters of water a day is a good thing.

Few choices are a direct dichotomy or need to be exclusive (eating cake doesn't mean not eating vegetables), but for the sake of argument, let's create direct either/or choices for cake and kale in context and dosage:

Context 1: mono food diets
- Eating nothing but cake is bad for health. True
- Eating nothing but kale is bad for health. True

Context 2: someone who has a problem eating enough calories and risks undereating. Which of the two choices would be better? Having a piece of cake at 400 calories or a bowl of kale at 40?
Answer: cake is better in this context.

Context 3: a person is on a diet and they feel restricted and on the verge of quitting. Which choice is better for their health?
- Trying to willpower through it, eat kale instead, feel the diet is hard, quit dieting and remain overweight because willpower can only take you so far.
- Eating a piece of cake, not feeling restricted, may or may not go over calories that day, but in the long run continue to diet and achieve a healthy weight.

Context 4: It's a birthday party
- Sit in the corner eating a bowl of kale feeling miserable
- Eat a piece of cake and be social
Which one is better for your social health (physical health is not the only important part of overall health)

Context 5: someone is new to dieting and everything feels overwhelming. They're feeling confused and trying to juggle several extreme changes at once. Which advice is better?
- Remove all cake and suck it up, eat kale instead. (this may lead to being even more overwhelmed and quitting)
- Baby steps. Learn how to control your cake intake. Eating one piece of cake is a great improvement over eating 3 pieces. You're learning and on the road to successful dieting and health.

Context 6: when food affects self talk
- I lost control and had a piece of cake. I feel anxious and resent myself for making such a bad choice when I could have had kale.
- I chose to have a piece of cake. It's just a piece of cake. It's not a bad food, just a food that doesn't help me achieve my goals consumed regularly in large quantities (similar to nuts). It will not derail my diet or nutrition because I usually have a varied diet. Go me!
Which self talk is better for mental health?


TL;DNR:
What the usual argument is not: eat nothing but cake within calories and forget about nutrition
What the usual argument is: eat a varied diet, including cake if you want, in the right context and dosage

P.S: cake and cookies usually have a lot of fat too. They're not just a carb, they're multi nutrient foods.

Quoting this for its excellence... it should be used in every thread like this...

WinoGelato

If a person reads “there are no bad carbs, you can eat any food you like in the context of a calorie appropriate diet” as advocating for nothing but cake and cookies then I think that says more about the reading comprehension and dietary habits of the person misinterpreting the words than it does about the advice that the poster offered...

I actually have never seen anyone who has asked if they can still eat cookies while losing weight, indicate that they want or intend to eat nothing but cookies. I’ve even taken to asking the OP in threads like that, “are you planning to eat nothing but cookies?” And their response is usually a horrified and confused, “no, why would I want to do that?”. So for this OP to suggest that posters asking about “bad carbs” would actually intend to eat nothing but those types of foods they are confused about, is quite insulting to the intelligence of this community at large - the people who ask an innocent question due to all the misinformation prevalent today, AND to the people who take time to carefully assure them that they can eat any foods they want and still achieve their goals, and that of course nutrition and satiety are important as well.

Lounmoun

I don't label foods good or bad.
If someone asks if they need to eat a no carb diet or if carbs are bad for weight loss then I am going to point out that many very nutritious foods have carbs like vegetables, fruits and dairy products and that you do not have to stop eating carbs to lose weight. Yes, you can eat potatoes, bread, pasta, rice and lose weight.
If someone asks if they can still eat cake and cookies and lose weight I would say yes because you can. I advise people to look at calories first and then try to get enough protein, fats and fiber to be more satisfied. I would encourage people to use the bulk of their calories on more nutrient packed foods before eating low nutrient foods.
If someone said they were only going to eat one or two foods of any type I would tell them they will probably have trouble sustaining such a diet and may not feel as good as if they just ate a normal variety of foods. Moderation does not mean eating a whole cake or eating only broccoli.
People here are supposedly adults and can eat whatever way they want. If they want to eat large amounts of low nutrient foods that is on them. No one has advised that they do so. I have never seen a thread with someone asking if they can eat an all cake and cookie diet.
What I wish is that we all stop acting like all people who are overweight are out of control eating fast food or desserts. We get fat because we consistantly eat too many calories for our activity level and that can be just a couple hundred extra a day. That could be an extra piece of chicken a day or a bit too much peanut butter or a fancy coffee drink.

TheDevastator

I'd say there are bad foods because it's almost impossible just getting all the micro-nutrients with the top foods and supplements in each micro-nutrient category let alone nutrient poor foods or foods high in omega 6s that will throw your omega 6s to omega 3s ratio out of balance. When I eat cake and cookies, I know I'm eating poor choices although I don't care sometimes. Some popular mfp beliefs don't make sense to me. Who started this no good or bad foods idea? I feel it's just a way to make you feel good about eating anything in your diet.

nicolehorn0114

The occasional piece of chocolate cake makes me happy. It’s good for my mental health.

deannalfisher

you are missing the point...no one who is saying there are no good or bad foods are saying eat "bad foods" at the detriment of getting required macro and micronutrients - but a well-round balanced diet is healthy - maybe that well-rounded diet includes ice cream once or twice a week - but that isn't going to be detrimental to your overall goals

Calliope610

JanetBiard wrote: »

Thank you to those of you who have made thoughtful contributions above, I appreciate this.

I don’t have any particular “brand of woo”, I wanted to understand why any suggestion that there might be bad carbs, that it might be helpful to stop eating, gets such a negative response on this community. It seems strange to me, as the calorie dense, nutritionally poor, highly processed foods we are surrounded with seems to me to be a contributory factor in weight gain.

Oh well, I will stick to my journey and you will stick to yours.

What makes a carb "bad"? How are is a "bad carb" distinguished from a "good carb"?

livingleanlivingclean

Calliope610 wrote: »

JanetBiard wrote: »

Thank you to those of you who have made thoughtful contributions above, I appreciate this.

I don’t have any particular “brand of woo”, I wanted to understand why any suggestion that there might be bad carbs, that it might be helpful to stop eating, gets such a negative response on this community. It seems strange to me, as the calorie dense, nutritionally poor, highly processed foods we are surrounded with seems to me to be a contributory factor in weight gain.

Oh well, I will stick to my journey and you will stick to yours.

What makes a carb "bad"? How are is a "bad carb" distinguished from a "good carb"?

The bad carb stole 3cms of material from your pants.

Machka9

CarvedTones wrote: »

Of course there are bad carbs. I found several way in the back the last time I cleaned out the fridge...

Yeah ... I just tossed a bunch of similar bad carbs last week! Yikes!! Scientists would have liked to have a look at what I pulled out of there!

MelanieCN77

JanetBiard wrote: »

And of course I agree that there is nothing wrong with a treat now and then. But advocating a just eat what you want as long as you stay in your calories is not going to help people stay on track.

What is commonly said is that you will lose weight, stay on track is another thing. I mean, you're not wrong, but you're not arguing the actual point either.

missysippy930

JanetBiard wrote: »

I know that I am going to be shot down in flames for saying this but I have become increasingly fed up by the people posting on MFP that there are no such things as bad carbs. This is really poor advice. The theory that as long as you maintain a calorie deficit you will lose weight may be true but it is appalling advice. On this basis you are suggesting that a diet of only cake and cookies is as valid as one full of vegetables, and as likely to lead to weight loss. That is simply wrong. On the cake diet I would feel dreadful, and I am setting myself up for failure as I am unlikely to feel satisfied with the portions of cake I can eat to stay in deficit.
Learning how to eat a nutritionally sound diet which is satisfying, energising and likely to stop me getting diabetes is part of the journey that people need to be on if they want to lose weight permanently. You can all call this woo and tell me the problem with cake is not the carbs it is the fat but really? Eating highly processed carbs with no fibre, lots of added sugars and god knows what chemicals are simply not a help if you are trying to lose weight.

I have been on MFP since 2012. In all of that time, I have never once, seen anyone suggest that a diet of cake and cookies is as valid as one of vegetables. That is a really ludicrous statement, and very misleading to anyone new to this site, and or on a serious diet to lose weight. Admittedly, I have not read every posting on this site, but I have read enough of them to know that this kind of post would garner a lot of comments refuting your claim (as it already has) that anyone would suggest eating "only cake and cookies" to lose weight. IMHO, you do a disservice to this site by even suggesting this.
With no medical issues, moderation in ALL foods, and staying within your calorie budget whether it is for weight loss or maintaining a weight loss is a much truer statement, and one most resonable people would suggest.

ceiswyn

TheDevastator wrote: »

I'd say there are bad foods because it's almost impossible just getting all the micro-nutrients with the top foods and supplements in each micro-nutrient category let alone nutrient poor foods or foods high in omega 6s that will throw your omega 6s to omega 3s ratio out of balance.

Can anyone parse this sentence?

Or tell me what a ‘top food’ is?

Or how the human race has survived if micronutrients are so darn impossible to get?

jennifer_417

Food contains no moral value. It's just food.