Are there really no bad carbs?

Not once have I read people advocating a diet of cake and cookies. People do however say "All things in moderation" and to choose an eating plan you can stick with for life.

Labelling food as good and bad is a dangerous trip down the path of disordered eating. It can lead to many restrictions and binge eating. It is simply not a healthy way to view food.

There are foods that are more nutritionally dense than others and it is these foods that should be the focus of the majority of our food choices but there is nothing wrong with a treat now and then.

Don't look at bad carbs as a single food single context thing. Everything is about context and dosage, and that's what is being said (but not heard because it sounds counterintuitive to some).

Think about water: water is not bad, it's good and necessary in fact. It can be very healthy. That's a sound statement.
Now think about water in context:
Does the above statement being true make the following statements true?
1. Having a diet that has nothing but water is as good as having a varied balanced diet.
2. Drinking 20 liters of water a day is a good thing.

Few choices are a direct dichotomy or need to be exclusive (eating cake doesn't mean not eating vegetables), but for the sake of argument, let's create direct either/or choices for cake and kale in context and dosage:

Context 1: mono food diets
- Eating nothing but cake is bad for health. True
- Eating nothing but kale is bad for health. True

Context 2: someone who has a problem eating enough calories and risks undereating. Which of the two choices would be better? Having a piece of cake at 400 calories or a bowl of kale at 40?
Answer: cake is better in this context.

Context 3: a person is on a diet and they feel restricted and on the verge of quitting. Which choice is better for their health?
- Trying to willpower through it, eat kale instead, feel the diet is hard, quit dieting and remain overweight because willpower can only take you so far.
- Eating a piece of cake, not feeling restricted, may or may not go over calories that day, but in the long run continue to diet and achieve a healthy weight.

Context 4: It's a birthday party
- Sit in the corner eating a bowl of kale feeling miserable
- Eat a piece of cake and be social
Which one is better for your social health (physical health is not the only important part of overall health)

Context 5: someone is new to dieting and everything feels overwhelming. They're feeling confused and trying to juggle several extreme changes at once. Which advice is better?
- Remove all cake and suck it up, eat kale instead. (this may lead to being even more overwhelmed and quitting)
- Baby steps. Learn how to control your cake intake. Eating one piece of cake is a great improvement over eating 3 pieces. You're learning and on the road to successful dieting and health.

Context 6: when food affects self talk
- I lost control and had a piece of cake. I feel anxious and resent myself for making such a bad choice when I could have had kale.
- I chose to have a piece of cake. It's just a piece of cake. It's not a bad food, just a food that doesn't help me achieve my goals consumed regularly in large quantities (similar to nuts). It will not derail my diet or nutrition because I usually have a varied diet. Go me!
Which self talk is better for mental health?


TL;DNR:
What the usual argument is not: eat nothing but cake within calories and forget about nutrition
What the usual argument is: eat a varied diet, including cake if you want, in the right context and dosage

P.S: cake and cookies usually have a lot of fat too. They're not just a carb, they're multi nutrient foods.

The reason you are being shot down in flames is that you are having a go at people for saying something that nobody has said. If you have to misrepresent people in order to argue with them, that ought to suggest to a reasonable person that maybe their argument is invalid.

Yes, a diet of solely cake would be bad, but that doesn’t make it a ‘bad food’. A diet of solely broccoli would be bad too - does that mean you’re going to tell us broccoli is a ‘bad food’ as well? If not, why not?

This false dichotomy keeps being presented, usually by people who prefer to believe in woo and will grasp at any straw to dismiss the simple science-based strategy of CICO. Tell me, which brand of woo is yours?

I like cake, and cookies!

ghudson92 wrote: »

I like cake, and cookies!

So do I. I also love mountains of vegetables... But if all I ate was vegetables I'd likely be deficient in macro and micronutrients, so that would surely make vegetables bad too?

JanetBiard wrote: »

Thank you to those of you who have made thoughtful contributions above, I appreciate this.

I don’t have any particular “brand of woo”, I wanted to understand why any suggestion that there might be bad carbs, that it might be helpful to stop eating, gets such a negative response on this community. It seems strange to me, as the calorie dense, nutritionally poor, highly processed foods we are surrounded with seems to me to be a contributory factor in weight gain.

Oh well, I will stick to my journey and you will stick to yours.

I think the line of communication breaks in that many of old users who have been successful for years here focus on the sustainability part of dieting because compromised sustainability tends to be what leads many people to regain weight, not compromised nutrition. Good nutrition is usually assumed as a given by long time users of the site, because almost everyone knows that nutrition is important and what foods are nutrient rich. What many new dieters don't know is that good nutrition can be achieved by looking at the diet as a whole, not as single foods. This means they can achieve a nutritious diet without cutting out their favorite foods, which is a freeing thought for many people who are anxious about dieting and are finding it hard.

With that said, if someone asks about nutrition they will get a completely different type of answer that is focused on achieving better nutrition. Take a stroll through "how to eat more vegetables" or "I can't hit my protein goal" kinds of threads to see what I mean.

JanetBiard wrote: »

Thank you to those of you who have made thoughtful contributions above, I appreciate this.

I don’t have any particular “brand of woo”, I wanted to understand why any suggestion that there might be bad carbs, that it might be helpful to stop eating, gets such a negative response on this community. It seems strange to me, as the calorie dense, nutritionally poor, highly processed foods we are surrounded with seems to me to be a contributory factor in weight gain.

Oh well, I will stick to my journey and you will stick to yours.

Excess calories from any source are a contributing factor in weight gain. I know plenty of fat raw vegans, who wouldn't eat the "bad" carbs you mention. I gained weight doing the Whole 30. I have to monitor my vegetable intake as I can easily overeat them and gain weight following a diet nearly void of added sugars, refined grains, cakes and cookies etc.

JanetBiard wrote: »

Thank you to those of you who have made thoughtful contributions above, I appreciate this.

I don’t have any particular “brand of woo”, I wanted to understand why any suggestion that there might be bad carbs, that it might be helpful to stop eating, gets such a negative response on this community. It seems strange to me, as the calorie dense, nutritionally poor, highly processed foods we are surrounded with seems to me to be a contributory factor in weight gain.

Oh well, I will stick to my journey and you will stick to yours.

I feel that you making the comments you have is treating people like they are too stupid to know that a diet of cake and cookies is a bad idea. That is why comments like this get shot down. It is quite insulting that you would think any newbie would come along, read comments that it is ok to eat these treats and still lose weight and then decide that only eating these kinds of foods is a good way to go.

JanetBiard wrote: »

I know that I am going to be shot down in flames for saying this but I have become increasingly fed up by the people posting on MFP that there are no such things as bad carbs. This is really poor advice. The theory that as long as you maintain a calorie deficit you will lose weight may be true but it is appalling advice. On this basis you are suggesting that a diet of only cake and cookies is as valid as one full of vegetables, and as likely to lead to weight loss. That is simply wrong. On the cake diet I would feel dreadful, and I am setting myself up for failure as I am unlikely to feel satisfied with the portions of cake I can eat to stay in deficit.
Learning how to eat a nutritionally sound diet which is satisfying, energising and likely to stop me getting diabetes is part of the journey that people need to be on if they want to lose weight permanently. You can all call this woo and tell me the problem with cake is not the carbs it is the fat but really? Eating highly processed carbs with no fibre, lots of added sugars and god knows what chemicals are simply not a help if you are trying to lose weight.

There are no bad carbs.

Yes, you can lose weight eating a diet of cake and cookies, provided the number of calories you consume is less than the number of calories you burn.

In fact, you can eat whatever you want and lose weight, provided the number of calories you consume is less than the number of calories you burn.

Isn't that both exciting and freeing!!

You don't have to avoid favourite foods!


However, that said, yes, there are foods which have more "staying power". For example, a large plate of veggies makes me feel full longer than then the same number of calories in a chocolate bar.

And yes, there are foods which provide us with vitamins and minerals, which cake and cookies might not.


I have maintained a weight within my normal BMI range for the vast majority of my life ... and my diet has indeed included cakes and cookies. Frequent cakes and cookies. It also includes a whole lot of veggies, fruits, leans meats, whole grains and so on.

JanetBiard wrote: »

I know that I am going to be shot down in flames for saying this but I have become increasingly fed up by the people posting on MFP that there are no such things as bad carbs. This is really poor advice. The theory that as long as you maintain a calorie deficit you will lose weight may be true but it is appalling advice.

What is commonly said (including by me) is that there are no bad foods, but that foods differ as to their macro and micronutrient content and that you should eat a good diet (which would be sufficient with respect to micros and macros and calorie appropriate). Something higher cal and lower nutrient contained within such a diet would not be "bad," that's a silly way to think of nutrition.

To take that as "don't think about anything but calorie deficit for any purpose" is your own spin, not what is said, and is a bizarre interpretation.

On this basis you are suggesting that a diet of only cake and cookies is as valid as one full of vegetables, and as likely to lead to weight loss. That is simply wrong.

(A) No one has ever suggested a diet of only cake and cookies, and I try to give people enough credit to think that they wouldn't eat such a diet, as that would be obviously not nutritionally adequate and also ridiculous and not what anyone would actually WANT to eat.

(B) Cakes and cookies are not "bad carbs" for various reasons, but in particular because they get as many of their calories from fat as carbs, so calling them "carbs" is senseless. Why not call them "bad fats"? Reason: there's currently weird demonization of carbs.

On the cake diet I would feel dreadful, and I am setting myself up for failure as I am unlikely to feel satisfied with the portions of cake I can eat to stay in deficit.

Also presumably you'd miss other foods. I would assume someone would know all this and not think an all cake diet was a good idea even if I did not -- as I always do -- say that a good diet is important for nutrition.

This does not make cake a "bad food" (or a "bad carb," since again, it's got plenty of fat so isn't a carb at all, but a mixed macro food). I would feel terrible on an avocado only diet, but I think avocados are a great food.

Learning how to eat a nutritionally sound diet which is satisfying, energising and likely to stop me getting diabetes is part of the journey that people need to be on if they want to lose weight permanently. You can all call this woo and tell me the problem with cake is not the carbs it is the fat but really? Eating highly processed carbs with no fibre, lots of added sugars and god knows what chemicals are simply not a help if you are trying to lose weight.

The problem with cake (if any) is that it's high cal, low in many nutrients that people need (including protein and fiber and healthy fats), and for many people likely to be overeaten. If you eat a piece within your weekly or daily calorie allotment while getting in your nutrients, it's perfectly fine, however.

I'm picky about cake and ate it rarely even when I was fat and didn't watch calories, but for example I think cheese has many of the same qualities as cake -- high cal, low in most nutrients I find less prevalent in my diet (including protein, fiber, and healthy fats, as well as various micros), and easy to overeat if you are not careful. Yet I have some cheese most days with my meals or as a snack and enjoy it and don't see a reason to call it a bad food.

Is this really so hard to understand that you must interpret it as "eat a diet of only cake"? I really don't see how that's possible unless you are trying really hard to distort what is said. I wish you'd explain to me what about what I have just said seems like I am saying nutrition does not matter.

Why so angry Janet?

amusedmonkey wrote: »

Don't look at bad carbs as a single food single context thing. Everything is about context and dosage, and that's what is being said (but not heard because it sounds counterintuitive to some).

Think about water: water is not bad, it's good and necessary in fact. It can be very healthy. That's a sound statement.
Now think about water in context:
Does the above statement being true make the following statements true?
1. Having a diet that has nothing but water is as good as having a varied balanced diet.
2. Drinking 20 liters of water a day is a good thing.

Few choices are a direct dichotomy or need to be exclusive (eating cake doesn't mean not eating vegetables), but for the sake of argument, let's create direct either/or choices for cake and kale in context and dosage:

Context 1: mono food diets
- Eating nothing but cake is bad for health. True
- Eating nothing but kale is bad for health. True

Context 2: someone who has a problem eating enough calories and risks undereating. Which of the two choices would be better? Having a piece of cake at 400 calories or a bowl of kale at 40?
Answer: cake is better in this context.

Context 3: a person is on a diet and they feel restricted and on the verge of quitting. Which choice is better for their health?
- Trying to willpower through it, eat kale instead, feel the diet is hard, quit dieting and remain overweight because willpower can only take you so far.
- Eating a piece of cake, not feeling restricted, may or may not go over calories that day, but in the long run continue to diet and achieve a healthy weight.

Context 4: It's a birthday party
- Sit in the corner eating a bowl of kale feeling miserable
- Eat a piece of cake and be social
Which one is better for your social health (physical health is not the only important part of overall health)

Context 5: someone is new to dieting and everything feels overwhelming. They're feeling confused and trying to juggle several extreme changes at once. Which advice is better?
- Remove all cake and suck it up, eat kale instead. (this may lead to being even more overwhelmed and quitting)
- Baby steps. Learn how to control your cake intake. Eating one piece of cake is a great improvement over eating 3 pieces. You're learning and on the road to successful dieting and health.

Context 6: when food affects self talk
- I lost control and had a piece of cake. I feel anxious and resent myself for making such a bad choice when I could have had kale.
- I chose to have a piece of cake. It's just a piece of cake. It's not a bad food, just a food that doesn't help me achieve my goals consumed regularly in large quantities (similar to nuts). It will not derail my diet or nutrition because I usually have a varied diet. Go me!
Which self talk is better for mental health?


TL;DNR:
What the usual argument is not: eat nothing but cake within calories and forget about nutrition
What the usual argument is: eat a varied diet, including cake if you want, in the right context and dosage

P.S: cake and cookies usually have a lot of fat too. They're not just a carb, they're multi nutrient foods.

Quoting this for its excellence... it should be used in every thread like this...

I don't label foods good or bad.
If someone asks if they need to eat a no carb diet or if carbs are bad for weight loss then I am going to point out that many very nutritious foods have carbs like vegetables, fruits and dairy products and that you do not have to stop eating carbs to lose weight. Yes, you can eat potatoes, bread, pasta, rice and lose weight.
If someone asks if they can still eat cake and cookies and lose weight I would say yes because you can. I advise people to look at calories first and then try to get enough protein, fats and fiber to be more satisfied. I would encourage people to use the bulk of their calories on more nutrient packed foods before eating low nutrient foods.
If someone said they were only going to eat one or two foods of any type I would tell them they will probably have trouble sustaining such a diet and may not feel as good as if they just ate a normal variety of foods. Moderation does not mean eating a whole cake or eating only broccoli.
People here are supposedly adults and can eat whatever way they want. If they want to eat large amounts of low nutrient foods that is on them. No one has advised that they do so. I have never seen a thread with someone asking if they can eat an all cake and cookie diet.
What I wish is that we all stop acting like all people who are overweight are out of control eating fast food or desserts. We get fat because we consistantly eat too many calories for our activity level and that can be just a couple hundred extra a day. That could be an extra piece of chicken a day or a bit too much peanut butter or a fancy coffee drink.