Less Alcohol - August 2018 - One Day at a Time

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  • lorrainequiche59
    lorrainequiche59 Posts: 900 Member
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    @Orphia Very Interesting about the genetic component of AUD. I remember someone making a comment awhile back (not sure who) about TRUE moderation being 1 drink/day for women & 2/for men max. Standard drink that is. So how does that play into AUD if a person exceeds that amount on a regular basis? If someone IS truly moderate what does that mean for others who exceed that amount? Do they have AUD?? And if so, then anything over the recommended daily alcohol allowance is heavy drinking then? I would assume so, because if our livers can only process 1 standard drink per hour (depending on body type, weight, food consumed etc) then anything in excess of that is too much for our liver to detoxify & obviously what can't be processed will be spewed into our blood stream affecting other functions such as genetics...Right? Am I way off base here???
  • RubyRed427
    RubyRed427 Posts: 4,170 Member
    edited August 2018
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    Good article @Orphia
    What I find important is : In some studies that showed how epigenetics affects addiction, neuroscientists demonstrated that heavy cocaine and alcohol dependence modifies the chemical makeup around particular genes that protect against addiction.

    In a study on heavy alcohol use, it reveals that once these defensive genetic structures were regulated differently, they never recovered fully and alcoholism is triggered.
  • donimfp
    donimfp Posts: 795 Member
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    Interesting stuff. Another thought about "genetics," actually just family: Both my paternal grandfather and maternal grandmother were serious alcoholics. Also, both were super high achievers (prominent doctor and artist). On the other hand, I never saw either of my parents abuse alcohol at all. Both were very moderate drinkers (my mom still is). But a psychiatrist friend told me that grandchildren of alcoholics tend to be at risk because their parents were raised by alcoholics and passed on many of the personality/behavior patterns learned from their alcoholic parents, yet they themselves avoid over-drinking because they witnessed its damage firsthand. So lucky grandchildren inherit the dysfunctional behaviors but don't have the warning lights about alcohol itself so tend to go there. I thought that was interesting because I see a lot of both grandparents in myself, both the positive and the unhealthy.
  • RubyRed427
    RubyRed427 Posts: 4,170 Member
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    For me, stress and loneliness (even though I have good family around me ) trigger me to drink. I’m introvert by nature (although my mother laughs when I say that, because I appear to be outgoing) and drinking also helps me to loosen up and be able to speak confidently in social situations. In @Orphia article it made me think about my Russian relatives. Most of the males are alcoholics but not many of the females (except for me and my sister who are.) Either the females have been the ones to drink less because they have to keep it together for the rest of the family, or they abhor seeing their male counterparts drunk that they are steadfast in their resolve to be AF.

    I think my alcoholism was predetermined back when I was a teenager when I drank peach schnapps in coffee cups at the age of 16. So after decades of barely keeping it together as a developing alcoholic, I probably had very little chance to avoid the addiction. It was bound to happen for me, I think. But the silver lining is that it has made me who I am, and it has given me more self awareness about who I want to be.
  • RubyRed427
    RubyRed427 Posts: 4,170 Member
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    @NovusDies I want to be a little more like you, because you are sensible and steadfast in your goals. Yes, changing and improving little things does add up. Good point!
  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
    edited August 2018
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    RubyRed427 wrote: »
    @NovusDies I want to be a little more like you, because you are sensible and steadfast in your goals. Yes, changing and improving little things does add up. Good point!

    No no. This is a do as I say situation not a do as I do. I just advised you *not* to be like me. :wink:
  • WinoGelato
    WinoGelato Posts: 13,454 Member
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    lorrainequiche59 wrote: »
    @Orphia Very Interesting about the genetic component of AUD. I remember someone making a comment awhile back (not sure who) about TRUE moderation being 1 drink/day for women & 2/for men max. Standard drink that is. So how does that play into AUD if a person exceeds that amount on a regular basis? If someone IS truly moderate what does that mean for others who exceed that amount? Do they have AUD?? And if so, then anything over the recommended daily alcohol allowance is heavy drinking then? I would assume so, because if our livers can only process 1 standard drink per hour (depending on body type, weight, food consumed etc) then anything in excess of that is too much for our liver to detoxify & obviously what can't be processed will be spewed into our blood stream affecting other functions such as genetics...Right? Am I way off base here???

    I'm not sure if this was your intention but this reads (to me at least) as if you are assuming that there is a one size fits all number for every individual. You seem to be suggesting that if a person exceeds this number, then they are no longer a moderate drinker but a heavy drinker and ergo they have a problem. You seem to be conflating the biological component (how much can your body liver process within a particular amount of time) with the genetic aspect and also with the behavioral and emotional triggers related to drinking.

    The questionnaire I found to determine if you might be at risk for AUD (Alcohol Use Disorder) was more about the emotional/behavioral aspect and less about the quantifiable amounts that were consumed.
    https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders

    I believe that everyone's definition of moderation (whether it be alcohol, food, spending, etc) is going to be somewhat individualized based on their own situation. Sure there will be recommendations based on population studies and risk factors - but I don't think it is as direct as your post/question above makes it sound. I don't know what TRUE moderation looks like, but if I was drinking 2-3 glasses of wine EVERY SINGLE DAY and I now drink less often, and less total alcohol, thanks to my personal efforts to be more mindful - to me that is success in moderation, even if I am still sometimes going over the benchmark you mentioned above (1 drink/day for women).
  • Orphia
    Orphia Posts: 7,097 Member
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    Further to the article, remember that alcohol is a huge part of culture, and culture affects us all. I think it affects us far more than our genetics. (Though the study of epigenetics might argue that it's both.)

    I don't think I'm an alcoholic. Firstly, it's rare, secondly, it's not in my family, thirdly, I've been able to change things, though I drank more than the recommendation daily for years.

    Humans are reward-driven, and that is a huge part of behaviour, for better AND worse.

    That's what's led me to periods of creativity as well as periods of addiction.

    Doing nice fun arty things is addictive!
  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
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    x number of drinks per day or week can change depending on life and circumstances. A fair number of people drink too much in their twenties and then outgrow it. I never went through this phase in my twenties but decided to go through it in my forties. I like to get things wrong...

    I think true moderation is what you are capable of doing more than what you might be doing at any specific time in your life.



  • forestdweller46
    forestdweller46 Posts: 28 Member
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    @NovusDies....Guarachi BACON Wine...for when it gets cooler and you might have an occasion to indulge. Not recommending that you do. jes' sayin'.

    Hey y'all, let's not start again on the AF \ moderation argument. Debate within yourself as to which is best FOR YOU.
    I can be AF, as I am now, but am holding a carrot on my stick, intending to go back and be a moderate drinker.
    Admiration for those who are succeeding in being AF free, easier the longer you go I think, although for me the temptation is always lurking. Be proud of yourselves and stay strong!!

    Question. Any suggestions for encouraging an alcoholic who "is not an alcoholic" to stop or cut way back? Wrecking cars ["deer ran onto road"] , falling down with injuries while drunk ["wet or icy floor or walkway"] , 2nd wife leaving forever [ surprise #1 and #2]. Am I correct in believing that the only way to quit is to admit to yourself that you drink to excess, and WANT to quit ? No outside pressure works ? Obviously not the aforementioned incidents. Just concerned about his 14 year old son who seems to have lost all respect for his father. And don't say ALATEEN, because I researched those groups years ago, just to find out that their mantra was basically "accept and ignore".

    Anyway, hugs to everyone.
  • Orphia
    Orphia Posts: 7,097 Member
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    forestdweller46 wrote: »
    @NovusDies....Guarachi BACON Wine...for when it gets cooler and you might have an occasion to indulge. Not recommending that you do. jes' sayin'.

    Hey y'all, let's not start again on the AF \ moderation argument. Debate within yourself as to which is best FOR YOU.
    I can be AF, as I am now, but am holding a carrot on my stick, intending to go back and be a moderate drinker.
    Admiration for those who are succeeding in being AF free, easier the longer you go I think, although for me the temptation is always lurking. Be proud of yourselves and stay strong!!

    Question. Any suggestions for encouraging an alcoholic who "is not an alcoholic" to stop or cut way back? Wrecking cars ["deer ran onto road"] , falling down with injuries while drunk ["wet or icy floor or walkway"] , 2nd wife leaving forever [ surprise #1 and #2]. Am I correct in believing that the only way to quit is to admit to yourself that you drink to excess, and WANT to quit ? No outside pressure works ? Obviously not the aforementioned incidents. Just concerned about his 14 year old son who seems to have lost all respect for his father. And don't say ALATEEN, because I researched those groups years ago, just to find out that their mantra was basically "accept and ignore".

    Anyway, hugs to everyone.

    I have a friend who drinks all his calories.

    I've been telling him straight out he needs to sort that *kitten* out for months.

    I've also been sharing insights I've learned here.

    Yesterday he finally admitted he's going to do something about it.

    I recommend not beating around the bush, and trying to understand what he's thinking and thus what insight he might be open to.

    Make the insights few, and thoughtful, and make them count/bam!

    Don't give them clichés!
  • RubyRed427
    RubyRed427 Posts: 4,170 Member
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    forestdweller46 wrote: »
    @NovusDies....Guarachi BACON Wine...for when it gets cooler and you might have an occasion to indulge. Not recommending that you do. jes' sayin'.

    Hey y'all, let's not start again on the AF \ moderation argument. Debate within yourself as to which is best FOR YOU.
    I can be AF, as I am now, but am holding a carrot on my stick, intending to go back and be a moderate drinker.
    Admiration for those who are succeeding in being AF free, easier the longer you go I think, although for me the temptation is always lurking. Be proud of yourselves and stay strong!!

    Question. Any suggestions for encouraging an alcoholic who "is not an alcoholic" to stop or cut way back? Wrecking cars ["deer ran onto road"] , falling down with injuries while drunk ["wet or icy floor or walkway"] , 2nd wife leaving forever [ surprise #1 and #2]. Am I correct in believing that the only way to quit is to admit to yourself that you drink to excess, and WANT to quit ? No outside pressure works ? Obviously not the aforementioned incidents. Just concerned about his 14 year old son who seems to have lost all respect for his father. And don't say ALATEEN, because I researched those groups years ago, just to find out that their mantra was basically "accept and ignore".

    Anyway, hugs to everyone.

    It’s very difficult to convince someone they’re are an alcoholic if they don’t admit it to themselves. It’s shocking but not unusual for a real drinker to have DUIs, have family leave them, etc and yet they still drink. I really feel sorry for all involved.
  • lorrainequiche59
    lorrainequiche59 Posts: 900 Member
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    @forestdweller46 Save your energy. If the train wreck your friend has caused isn't enough to wake him up, there likely isn't anything you can say to convince him he has a problem. You can try, who knows. Sounds like he has an excuse for every consequence of his drinking so not a good spot to start trying to reason with someone who doesn't want to take responsibility. I was raised by an alcoholic father who drank his self to death by age 54 & an ex-husband who's still going from one disaster to the next...3 DUIs & counting a few families & counting etc etc. So far he's managed to avoid killing anyone. Some say an alcoholic won't stop until they hit bottom. Sadly, for some, there is no bottom, they just keep falling & manage take others down with them.

    Sorry for his son...my heart goes out to you. I know the pain of watching the train wreck & the powerlessness of not being able to stop it!! <3
  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
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    lorrainequiche59 wrote: »

    WOW...did I hit a nerve?? I was ASKING...not implying anything. I didn't read the entire article only the snippets that were posted here. BTW if you go back to page 11 you will see a post by Norminv about the "recommended healthy guidelines" being 1 drink/day for women & 2 drinks/day for men. I did not recommend anything. And I'm assuming that Norminv didn't dream that up. I assume there is a very good reason for that recommendation.

    It seems to me that you tend to personalize my comments. If you feel good about what you're doing there's no need to justify it to me or anyone else. From what I understand from reading a ton about alcohol addiction is that alcohol IS an addictive substance & like any addictive substance the more a person uses it, the higher the risk of addiction....Do I have the wrong understanding? I do not know you or your background or your genetic make up etc etc. If you say you can moderate who am I to say you cannot....The only thing I know is that I cannot!!

    It is easy for me to see how your post was taken poorly even if it was not your intent. Number one after last week and Erik leaving some people with moderation goals are very upset. Number two I can't for the life of me figure out why you put 'true' in all caps in your post. Usually that is a point of strong emphasis. In this case that emphasis had a definition of how many drinks were the max for TRUE moderation. I fully understand that you were just repeating something someone else posted but it still can be read that drinking more than the stated amount is not true or FALSE moderation.

    I know you to be a kind and caring person and I believe this is one of those weird message board things where something is taken in a way that was not intended. If you spend enough time on a message board it is going to happen.


  • Orphia
    Orphia Posts: 7,097 Member
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    Why do I always go to type alcholol or something similar?

    See, alchol always comes out!!!

    "coh" is not a logical thing to type. :smiley:

    Anyone else making similar typos?
  • ElC_76
    ElC_76 Posts: 3,054 Member
    edited August 2018
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    Orphia wrote: »
    Why do I always go to type alcholol or something similar?

    See, alchol always comes out!!!

    "coh" is not a logical thing to type. :smiley:

    Anyone else making similar typos?

    Haha... Its always on your mind, 'one track mind' at the moment anyway.. Lol

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