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why do people think you can be healthy at every size?
trulyhealy
Posts: 242 Member
in Debate Club
that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fat
24
Replies
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This seems like a circular argument. If you define "healthy" as "not fat," then of course it is impossible to be healthy and fat.
The answer to your question is that people have some varying definitions as to what "healthy" actually means. People could be using it to mean "currently not suffering from ill health" and there are certainly overweight or obese people who fit into that category. Are they guaranteed to stay in that state? Nope. But neither are the rest of us who would currently identify as healthy.46 -
Not sure I follow your logic here. The concept behind the movement is that you can be outside of the standard BMI healthy range which is a ratio of weight to height and is often used to help define statistical norms for things like health insurance, etc; and still have good health markers and engage in a healthy and active lifestyle.
Are you saying that the reason people get fat is that they aren’t healthy in the first place, and did you mean physically or mentally healthy?16 -
trulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fat
I'm not really down with that whole movement, but you can be fat and healthy (as in health markers are fine) and also fit. Obviously someone who is over fat/obese/underweight, etc are at higher risk for health conditions but that doesn't mean they currently exist.
I have a roadie friend who is definitely over fat...he's not obese, but he's definitely overly fat. He is very fit though and can ride circles around me, especially on flats, and that dude can ride all day long if he wanted to. As it is at the moment, his health markers are fine and he's fit and been riding for ages, but he still let himself get fat by eating too much.8 -
This depends entirely on what your definition of healthy is. I'm in the obese category and have been for about 15 years. No diabetes, no high blood pressure, no high cholesterol, have never had any issues being physically active, no knee or hip pain, literally nothing that would suggest I'm "unhealthy" aside from my weight.
In my personal opinion, people like to label someone healthy based on their size alone, but often that's not the case at all. Not to mention the fact that healthy is subjective anyway.
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I'm told it originally started as a movement to promote the idea one could be healthIER at every size, and that one could take steps to improve health without losing weight.
Early campaigners identified that a significant number of unfit, overweight/obese people felt unable to lose weight and also felt that if they couldn't lose weight, there was no point doing anything else to improve their health.
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Define "healthy" and "get fat" please.8
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The term “healthy” is similar to term “clean eating”. Means different things to different people. When you go to your doctor they don’t take your weight and say, “Ah ha yes! You are healthy!” You have to do many tests to get a holistic view of someone’s overall health. And then there’s the whole genetic thing.10
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I don’t believe BMI and/or body weight is an all-encompassing measure of health. Just some anecdotal evidence here: my friend is very fit. She is a weightlifter and runs marathons. She’s all muscle. However, her BMI classifies her has overweight-to-obese. I, on the other hand, have a “healthy” BMI. I eat terribly, rarely exercise, can barely make it up my stairs. Just because I’m naturally thin and have a decent metabolism doesn’t mean I’m actually healthy. Ironically, when I played sports (5 or 6 days a week), as well as weight-lifted, my BMI was considered overweight. Basically I got lazy, stopped working out, and lost muscle. I lost 20+ lbs, but am certainly nowhere near as fit and healthy as I was when I was considered overweight on the BMI scale.10
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protonmate wrote: »I don’t believe BMI and/or body weight is an all-encompassing measure of health. Just some anecdotal evidence here: my friend is very fit. She is a weightlifter and runs marathons. She’s all muscle. However, her BMI classifies her has overweight-to-obese. I, on the other hand, have a “healthy” BMI. I eat terribly, rarely exercise, can barely make it up my stairs. Just because I’m naturally thin and have a decent metabolism doesn’t mean I’m actually healthy. Ironically, when I played sports (5 or 6 days a week), as well as weight-lifted, my BMI was considered overweight. Basically I got lazy, stopped working out, and lost muscle. I lost 20+ lbs, but am certainly nowhere near as fit and healthy as I was when I was considered overweight on the BMI scale.
I don't think anyone who has at least a basic understanding of the subject considers BMI or body weight to be all-encompassing measures of health.18 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »trulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fat
I'm not really down with that whole movement, but you can be fat and healthy (as in health markers are fine) and also fit. Obviously someone who is over fat/obese/underweight, etc are at higher risk for health conditions but that doesn't mean they currently exist.
I have a roadie friend who is definitely over fat...he's not obese, but he's definitely overly fat. He is very fit though and can ride circles around me, especially on flats, and that dude can ride all day long if he wanted to. As it is at the moment, his health markers are fine and he's fit and been riding for ages, but he still let himself get fat by eating too much.
This ^ is basically my attitude/opinion as well.
On charts, my husband is probably in the obese category, although hard to tell because of his build and such. He has excellent health markers and crazy-good endurance and strength. I am more "skinny fat" and technically about 15 lb overweight (previously morbidly obese). My health is quite good as well - but I'd definitely say my husband is the fitter by far & probably the healthier of the two of us.
I think HAES is a difficult thing. There are so many risk factors for different problems & conditions that are associated with excess weight. But it is true that you can be healthy or unhealthy at a wide range of weights and a "healthy" weight doesn't equate a person's good health overall. Another example would be "healthy living" - take my former obese self as one example - rarely drank alcohol, didn't smoke or use drugs, got a decent amount of exercise and ate my veggies...I also ate too much food & sugary snacks, but I believe I was way healthier than someone of identical weight who did all of those things excessively and never exercised.
I love the idea of embracing healthy habits regardless of one's size and loving and accepting your body. But I also think it's unfortunate in some cases, when HAES keeps people from striving to address issues that COULD be improved by weight loss.8 -
trulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fat
Well first there's the obvious logical non sequitur that even granting a healthy person won't get fat, it doesn't follow it means they can't be underweight.
The rest does seem to be just begging the question about how to define health. Do you have independent reasons to say a healthy person could not become fat or obese? I'm not even sure what it means to say be fat.1 -
trulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fat
a person can be heavy and have healthy biometrics - meaning - healthy blood pressure. cholesterol in a healthy range. glucose levels in a healthy range. great resting heart rate etc etc etc.0 -
Healthier at any size is definitely a good thing.
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Well its more the case of people getting offended or at the very least getting on the defensive if you try and hint that they should change their lifestyle.
I would venture that the large majority of overweight people are NOT healthy ... ofc I guess they can be called 'currently not sick' if you just screen them on a bunch of tests but that doesn't mean that they don't have a considerably increased chance of heart disease / hyperglycemia / whatever else.11 -
I think the misapprehension that professionals in the field assess people's health purely on their BMI has been a driving force behind most internet arguments about BMI.janejellyroll wrote: »protonmate wrote: »I don’t believe BMI and/or body weight is an all-encompassing measure of health. Just some anecdotal evidence here: my friend is very fit. She is a weightlifter and runs marathons. She’s all muscle. However, her BMI classifies her has overweight-to-obese. I, on the other hand, have a “healthy” BMI. I eat terribly, rarely exercise, can barely make it up my stairs. Just because I’m naturally thin and have a decent metabolism doesn’t mean I’m actually healthy. Ironically, when I played sports (5 or 6 days a week), as well as weight-lifted, my BMI was considered overweight. Basically I got lazy, stopped working out, and lost muscle. I lost 20+ lbs, but am certainly nowhere near as fit and healthy as I was when I was considered overweight on the BMI scale.
I don't think anyone who has at least a basic understanding of the subject considers BMI or body weight to be all-encompassing measures of health.
I dread to think how many man-hours have been expended in battling the same strawman.
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Well its more the case of people getting offended or at the very least getting on the defensive if you try and hint that they should change their lifestyle.
I would venture that the large majority of overweight people are NOT healthy ... ofc I guess they can be called 'currently not sick' if you just screen them on a bunch of tests but that doesn't mean that they don't have a considerably increased chance of heart disease / hyperglycemia / whatever else.
"Overweight" is a fairly broad category, including people who may just be 10-15 pounds outside of a healthy weight range. That the large majority of these people aren't healthy is a claim that I think requires some kind of support.
Even so, if the large majority were not healthy, it would still follow that a small percentage of them were healthy and the claim in the OP (that someone *could* be healthy at any size) would be accurate. After all, there is no statement in the claim about percentages.
If you don't define "healthy" as "currently not sick," what do you define it as?3 -
trulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fat
You don't get fat because you are unhealthy. Being too fat is a risk factor and bad for your health, however.
IMO, the positive meaning of health (not healthy) at any size is that you can do things that improve your health risk factors even if you are feeling defeatist about losing weight or not in the head space to do it yet, like eating a more nutritious diet and being more active (also, if applicable, quitting smoking, quitting drinking to excess, otherwise changing your life for the better).
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Brown fat prevails when you are fat but exercise a lot. Sumo wrestlers have brown fat.
Visceral fat forms around organs and is dangerous. So the type of fat you have matters.20 -
It is certainly true that obesity is a health risk, as it increases the risk of several common health issues. But "increases the risk" is not the same as "guaranteed to cause." There are many factors that can either increase or decrease the risk of health issues health issues. Obesity/weight is only one of them. So even if a person suffers from obesity, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't do other things that reduce health risks.
Also "if they were healthy they wouldn't get fat" shows a lack of understanding about both health and obesity.10 -
i am skinny and definitely not healthy but do work out as often as i'm able. there's a young lady at my gym who is quite overweight and she is more fit than i could ever hope to be, and i'm in awe of her. people think i'm fit because of my weight - which is a gross misconception really12
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Brown fat prevails when you are fat but exercise a lot. Sumo wrestlers have brown fat.
Visceral fat forms around organs and is dangerous. So the type of fat you have matters.
I don't think brown fat amounts to much in humans, it generally strikes me as one of those "oooh, looks need in rodents - oops, not how primates work" kind of things.
As far as sumo wrestlers, even they show health markers impacted by being obese compared to overweight less active people.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9736054 -
Person seems to think fat won't form around organs if you exercise a lot, and unfortunately that is not true, genetics and how obese you are make a huge difference.3
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I think the "Healthy at every size" got twisted around to be interpreted by people as "every size can be healthy", when it was originally meant to express that you should strive to be healthy regardless of your size. That weight should not be the goal, health should.22
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Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »But in order to get significantly overweight, it would be hard to eat right and be active enough. Most people do not get overweight by eating right and exercising regularly.
People get fat by eating too much for how active they are. What specific foods they ate and how active they are or were varies a lot.
That aside, I suspect most people who are significantly overweight could improve their diet in some way and/or increase activity in a healthy way -- IMO, that's the whole point of focusing on being healthier in a way that isn't focused first on weight loss. I also personally suspect that weight loss will follow for most.
Some people who are obese -- and this wasn't me, but I'm still aware of it -- have long and frustrating experiences with trying to diet or losing and regaining, often based on self-hatred, diet as punishment (so overly restrictive and not sustainable), maybe binging in response. For them, dieting may feel hopeless and hard to do in a healthful way and really emotionally fraught, they may feel like it's jumping back into a place of self-hatred. So the idea of not just giving up, but focusing on ways to get healthier that feel more positive and do-able, like getting more active, adding some kind of exercise or lifting program, focusing on eating a healthful diet (getting in more veg, cutting back on low nutrient/high cal snack/dessert foods if they are being eaten to excess, also soda, maybe cooking more from whole foods -- depends on what the person is already doing) all seem positive,
I personally think that for many this will cause some weight loss without trying or build the mental tools so that losing weight also seems possible and like something that can be done in a positive healthful way.10 -
@lemurcat12 Agreed. I seem to remember various people reporting online that such a version of HAES philosophy motivated them into exercising for fitness, and making a few diet changes for health, and that saw them... losing weight, just as you describe. Without stress, self-hatred or the rest.
They were very positive about the difference between their new health-focused mindset and their previous weight-focused attempts.7 -
Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »But in order to get significantly overweight, it would be hard to eat right and be active enough. Most people do not get overweight by eating right and exercising regularly.
I ate predominantly healthy, but large amounts. I took long walks and felt that I'd "earned" treats with calorie values that far outstripped the burn from those walks. I've gotten thinner by still eating predominantly healthy, controlling my portions, and keeping track of what calories come in and go out and being more realistic about exercise burns.9 -
It was originally an inspiring movement that encouraged an increase in healthy behaviors no matter what your size. It was unfortunately co-opted by those that proclaimed that excessive body fat weight is in no way related to long term health effects, a decrease in average lifespan, or an increase in a vast number of disease risk factors. And then also claiming that a diet composed almost entirely of fast food is equal to a diet rich in nutrient dense, whole foods while claiming that doctors are fatphobic for recommending weight loss.
It was these people that destroyed the beneficial aspects of the movement and made it into something of a sad joke within internet communities. Damn squeaky wheels.6 -
Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »But in order to get significantly overweight, it would be hard to eat right and be active enough. Most people do not get overweight by eating right and exercising regularly.
Sigh. Maybe true for most people, but not universal: Too simplistic.
I'd been vegetarian for decades, eating all the nice whole grains, good veggies, legumes, etc. I got fat, then obese. I'd been very active for a dozen years, even competing as a masters athlete, while obese, before losing weight.
None of that getting/staying obese was hard. Being active, unless a serious distance/endurance athlete, is typically good for only a few hundred extra calories a day. It's easy to eat a few hundred extra calories a day . . . trust me.
Does "eating right" inherently mean "eating the right calorie level to maintain a healthy weight"? Does "being active enough" inherently mean much more than the standard "150 minutes a week of moderate CV exercise or 75 minutes of intense exercise, plus 2 days of strength training"? If no to those, then it's super easy to "eat right and be active enough" yet still get/stay fat or obese.
As an aside, I was not healthy when obese (bad health markers - BP, lipids), but I was much healthier than I would've been if I'd been less active (I had low resting heart rate, good cardiovascular endurance, good strength).
I agree that the positive spin of HAES is about working on health improvements across the spectrum, regardless of body size, and think that's worthwhile. When HAES becomes a way to deny that, for most people, reasonable body weight is relevant to health - whether one is choosing to prioritize that high for themselves at that moment or not - then that's an example of dysfunctional thinking.11
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