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why do people think you can be healthy at every size?
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Not so, the old guy.
And this I do know, since working with patients blood test results is big part of my job.
Sure, the more obese you get and the older you get, the more likely you are to have glucose, cholesterol, high blood pressure
But this idea that somebody age over 60 and BMI of, say, 32 and no poor test results is a rarity - not true.
That's interesting. When it comes up in conversations it seems like none of my significantly overweight or obese friends has blood markers in the normal range without the use of some drug(s). Just personal observation.
From your background do you have any stats on % of older obese individuals with normal blood markers and not on medicine vs those of a normal weight?
No I don't have any actual percentages. Is just my general observation that blood test results not having anything in abnormal range is not rare in older unmedicated patients with BMI's over 30.
I'm sure the percentage of such is less than the percentage of older healthy BMI range people - I don't dispute that.
I do dispute that it is a rarity to be over 60, unmedicated and returning normal blood test results though.
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magnusthenerd wrote: »
Even if he isn't on PED's, he is recognized as an outlier. That in no way invalidates the standard.7 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »
Even if he isn't on PED's, he is recognized as an outlier. That in no way invalidates the standard.
Exactly. It is the same tired argument, and it seems like people use that strawman it to make obesity appear acceptable or healthy in some way.4 -
To sympathize with the OP's confusion, I have family members who are morbidly obese. Like, not healthy by anyone's definition. Loss of function like picking things up or climbing stairs. They quite regularly post a lot of fat-acceptance... I don't know... memes? Things like: "Your body is a garden; let is flourish." I worry for them, because I believe their weight will one day lead to something bad. I'm not here to judge anyone. I just want to keep my family members around as long as possible.2
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Do you think he really has over 25% body fat?
Obesity is having too much fat. It's not about how much you weigh, it's about how much fat you carry. To be obese, you have to carry over 25% body fat as a man, and 30% for a woman, IIRC.
Are you telling me you think Dwayne Johnson carries over 25% body fat?5 -
Oh, I didn't realize we were discussing obesity like obesity on paper. Yeah, I'm obese, too. Or I should say I just left it. Most of those charts tell you to disregard or take with a grain of salt if you strength train / lift weights. My relatives are not body-builders.0
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tbright1965 wrote: »
Do you think he really has over 25% body fat?
Obesity is having too much fat. It's not about how much you weigh, it's about how much fat you carry. To be obese, you have to carry over 25% body fat as a man, and 30% for a woman, IIRC.
Are you telling me you think Dwayne Johnson carries over 25% body fat?
No. Obesity is medically defined by having a BMI over 30. That is the only standardized use of the term medically.
The concept proxies having excess fat, but there are aspects of obesity that persist regardless of body fat percentage. For example, both sleep apnea and risk of knee issues are both predicted by being obese, even when a person has what would be considered "acceptable" body fat percentage.4 -
Actually Obesity is medically defined as excess body fat. BMI is a Proxy to estimate it, but isn’t perfect as it doesn’t account for people like Dwane Johnson.
People conflate BMI for body fat percentage, and there is some correlation. But not all who have a BMI > 30 are actually obese. But they are certainly worth another look.magnusthenerd wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »
Do you think he really has over 25% body fat?
Obesity is having too much fat. It's not about how much you weigh, it's about how much fat you carry. To be obese, you have to carry over 25% body fat as a man, and 30% for a woman, IIRC.
Are you telling me you think Dwayne Johnson carries over 25% body fat?
No. Obesity is medically defined by having a BMI over 30. That is the only standardized use of the term medically.
The concept proxies having excess fat, but there are aspects of obesity that persist regardless of body fat percentage. For example, both sleep apnea and risk of knee issues are both predicted by being obese, even when a person has what would be considered "acceptable" body fat percentage.
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I think a better question to ask is why does it bother you if other people think they can be healthy?5
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tbright1965 wrote: »Actually Obesity is medically defined as excess body fat. BMI is a Proxy to estimate it, but isn’t perfect as it doesn’t account for people like Dwane Johnson.
People conflate BMI for body fat percentage, and there is some correlation. But not all who have a BMI > 30 are actually obese. But they are certainly worth another look.magnusthenerd wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »
Do you think he really has over 25% body fat?
Obesity is having too much fat. It's not about how much you weigh, it's about how much fat you carry. To be obese, you have to carry over 25% body fat as a man, and 30% for a woman, IIRC.
Are you telling me you think Dwayne Johnson carries over 25% body fat?
No. Obesity is medically defined by having a BMI over 30. That is the only standardized use of the term medically.
The concept proxies having excess fat, but there are aspects of obesity that persist regardless of body fat percentage. For example, both sleep apnea and risk of knee issues are both predicted by being obese, even when a person has what would be considered "acceptable" body fat percentage.
No, it is literally medically defined as a BMI over 30. It is literally how the World Health Organization defines it - they have no criteria for evaluating obesity on the basis of actual fat.
At best I've seen some sports medicine organizations provide body fat percentages for it.0 -
Yet the CDC and suspect others say something similar,CDC wrote:Note: At an individual level, BMI can be used as a screening tool but is not diagnostic of the body fatness or the health of an individual. A trained healthcare provider should perform appropriate health assessments in order to evaluate an individual’s health status and risks. If you have questions about your BMI, talk with your health care provider.
So according to the CDC it is a screening tool, but the results need interpretation.
So one may initially show up as obese, but interpreting the initial findings must occur to determine if the person is actually obese.
If I lost a leg, I could arrive at a “normal” BMI and still be obese because I have a large, fat belly compensating for the missing limb.
Mindless pointing to a chart does nothing to help a patient.
Saying the Rock is obese probably doesn’t motivate people to make changes.magnusthenerd wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »Actually Obesity is medically defined as excess body fat. BMI is a Proxy to estimate it, but isn’t perfect as it doesn’t account for people like Dwane Johnson.
People conflate BMI for body fat percentage, and there is some correlation. But not all who have a BMI > 30 are actually obese. But they are certainly worth another look.magnusthenerd wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »
Do you think he really has over 25% body fat?
Obesity is having too much fat. It's not about how much you weigh, it's about how much fat you carry. To be obese, you have to carry over 25% body fat as a man, and 30% for a woman, IIRC.
Are you telling me you think Dwayne Johnson carries over 25% body fat?
No. Obesity is medically defined by having a BMI over 30. That is the only standardized use of the term medically.
The concept proxies having excess fat, but there are aspects of obesity that persist regardless of body fat percentage. For example, both sleep apnea and risk of knee issues are both predicted by being obese, even when a person has what would be considered "acceptable" body fat percentage.
No, it is literally medically defined as a BMI over 30. It is literally how the World Health Organization defines it - they have no criteria for evaluating obesity on the basis of actual fat.
At best I've seen some sports medicine organizations provide body fat percentages for it.6 -
The CDC also defines obesity:tbright1965 wrote: »Yet the CDC and suspect others say something similar,CDC wrote:Note: At an individual level, BMI can be used as a screening tool but is not diagnostic of the body fatness or the health of an individual. A trained healthcare provider should perform appropriate health assessments in order to evaluate an individual’s health status and risks. If you have questions about your BMI, talk with your health care provider.
So according to the CDC it is a screening tool, but the results need interpretation.
https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html
Seems to be the same page you are quoting which says:If your BMI is 30.0 or higher, it falls within the obese range.tbright1965 wrote: »Yet the CDC and suspect others say something similar,
So one may initially show up as obese, but interpreting the initial findings must occur to determine if the person is actually obese.
If I lost a leg, I could arrive at a “normal” BMI and still be obese because I have a large, fat belly compensating for the missing limb.
Mindless pointing to a chart does nothing to help a patient.
You're just arguing that it is instrumental rather than having a particular etiological disease. It isn't my point. I'm not sure what mindless pointing to chart has to do with anything.
Can you quote me where I said "obesity is having a BMI above 30 and it instantly means you need to fix your life or bad thing happen immediately" or anything like that? You don't get to redefine a tool just because you're worried someone will misuse it. In truth, understanding exactly that it is defined that way is important to understanding one can't blindly apply it.tbright1965 wrote: »Saying the Rock is obese probably doesn’t motivate people to make changes.
Again, he's almost certainly on PEDs. I don't see why anyone wants to use him as any kind of talking point or inspiration.5 -
trulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fattrulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fattrulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fattrulyhealy wrote: »that can’t really be true if you’re fat/obese/underweight bc being bc if you were healthy you wouldn’t get fat
Because people don’t understand that just because an overweight/underweight person does not CURRENTLY have health problems, that as time goes on, they will. Our bodies are amazing & can overcompensate for the crap we do to it—but only for so long. It’s impossible to be healthy at ANY weight. All types of health risks come with weight issues.2 -
All types of health risks come with age, genetics, job, location, etc. Sooner or later, our bodies break down. Obesity is a factor, yes. But far from the only one.4
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I note with mild amusement that the OP has not returned to the thread since her underlying assumption that overweight people can’t be healthy has been proven so completely wrong.12
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I note with mild amusement that the OP has not returned to the thread since her underlying assumption that overweight people can’t be healthy has been proven so completely wrong.
@ceiswyn -- OP had stated in another of her threads that she is autistic and has admitted that she deals with fixations and confusion regarding foods and what's ok or not. Maybe just me, but as someone with an autistic family member who is having severe issues with this topic right now, it seems a pertinent bit of information.
Just a friendly FYI
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Yeah, well, if you define ‘a healthy diet’ as ‘no more than you need’ then by definition nobody is going to get fat eating one!
What that has to do with whether overweight people can actually be healthy is entiely beyond me, though.3 -
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I know it’s an old saying but true non the less. Your body is your car. If you maintenance it, exercise It,and give it the right fuel it will take you wherever you want to go. Or, you can put the wrong fuel in, never drive it or maintenance it and just let it fall apart. The difference is with your body you only get one. You can live a healthy life, be active with your kids, or grandchildren depending on your age, or just watch and wish. Personally I don’t want to be the parent or grandparent that only sits on the side lines and watches. I want to be active with them and feel good about my self.1
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Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »
The more bizarre claim that OP made is that you can't become obese if you are healthy.
But obviously someone BMI 26 (which is overweight) can be healthy. [Note: I see later you referenced obese only, but the initial post I was responding too said overweight.]7 -
Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »If you look at the "why did I gain weight" thread, 99 percent of the reasons are due to not being healthy. (Coping mechanisms, eating too much, eating too much high calorie food, being lazy, not being active etc)
If "eating too much" means you aren't healthy, then sure, but that's not a normal definition of what healthy means. People can be healthy and indulge in non-healthy behaviors. One can be healthy (as in their physical condition, test results, absence of illness and medical problems) and fail to wear a seat belt, for example.It seems as though eating too much is a result of UNHEALTHY coping mechanisms or circumstances, thus leading to obesity.
Eating too much will lead to obesity no matter why you overeat, and it's simply not accurate to claim that people only overeat as a result of being already unhealthy. Environment matters and for many people in the current environment one will have to take affirmative steps to avoid overeating.No one comments "I got obese by eating a healthy diet and I didn't have any unhealthy mental issues".
Lots of people get obese (let alone overweight) by eating a diet that is generally healthy but for the overall calories and without any unhealthy mental issues (and I would also dispute whether having some bad coping mechanisms makes you "unhealthy," especially since we are talking about physical health). It's easy and common to overeat a little over the course of a year (or gain some weight during pregnancies) and not really pay that much attention or put off dealing with it because you are focused on other things and then end up at age 40+ being within the obese category.
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Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »If you look at the "why did I gain weight" thread, 99 percent of the reasons are due to not being healthy. (Coping mechanisms, eating too much, eating too much high calorie food, being lazy, not being active etc)
If "eating too much" means you aren't healthy, then sure, but that's not a normal definition of what healthy means. People can be healthy and indulge in non-healthy behaviors. One can be healthy (as in their physical condition, test results, absence of illness and medical problems) and fail to wear a seat belt, for example.It seems as though eating too much is a result of UNHEALTHY coping mechanisms or circumstances, thus leading to obesity.
Eating too much will lead to obesity no matter why you overeat, and it's simply not accurate to claim that people only overeat as a result of being already unhealthy. Environment matters and for many people in the current environment one will have to take affirmative steps to avoid overeating.No one comments "I got obese by eating a healthy diet and I didn't have any unhealthy mental issues".
Lots of people get obese (let alone overweight) by eating a diet that is generally healthy but for the overall calories and without any unhealthy mental issues (and I would also dispute whether having some bad coping mechanisms makes you "unhealthy," especially since we are talking about physical health). It's easy and common to overeat a little over the course of a year (or gain some weight during pregnancies) and not really pay that much attention or put off dealing with it because you are focused on other things and then end up at age 40+ being within the obese category.
But in order to get obese you have to eat considerably over your maintenance for a long period of time.
No, you don't. You have to eat slightly over your maintenance for a long period of time. I'm 5'3. The top of the healthy weight range is around 140 lbs, and I'd argue that although I don't look my best (IMO) that being 150 and active isn't actually unhealthy. Obese is 170. It's not that hard to gain 30-40 lbs (even 50 lbs) over a period of years.
In my early 20s I was around 125. I was naturally active (had to walk a lot, ran and biked), and in an environment (law school) where it was easy to just eat 2-3 meals a day, and I did not snack otherwise, as food just wasn't around unless I made or bought it. We'd go out to eat sometimes on the weekends, but what I was doing fit with my maintenance calories.
Between age 24 and my early 30s, I had a stressful job where if you stayed past 8 (which I always did) you could order dinner on the firm (restaurant meals, so high cal, but the type of restaurant meals where you get vegetables and protein -- salmon kebobs with rice and veg and feta was a favorite). There were also lots of events with food around -- the joke was that if you aren't paying there are no calories. Biggest thing is that although I still walked a good amount (I live in a big city and take public transportation and walk for most errands), I was stressed and felt like I did not have time to exercise. I'd do it sporatically -- run regularly for a while and stop. Biking in a big city scared me, so I stopped biking (I now bike again).
I gained the weight gradually enough that I didn't really realize I'd gained that much until I saw myself in someone else's wedding photos and was really upset. But even then -- since I'd never had to diet before, and always thought I could just eat what I want and not gain (and not be as thin as my ideal, but seemed a decent trade off), I had no idea what to do and felt out of control about it. So I put off dealing with it.
Finally I decided enough was enough and decided to take control of my weight as I had with other things in my life and lost the weight, but I managed to become 180 without it taking any effort at all, and without having to eat lots of sweets or fast food or what not, and without eating massive meals. Was my lifestyle less healthy than it could have been? Absolutely, but the idea that I only gained because I was mentally or physically unhealthy already is just wrong. (My medical test results were good and ability to run a 10K or what not was probably better than many who are normal weight too, but I certainly agreed that being obese is a risk and likely to cause more problems over time, which I've always said (although vanity was more significant to me wanting to lose weight then, and I think that's fine too).)You don’t become obese with a generally healthy diet with occasional indulgences. You have to considerably overeat which is hard to do day in day out unless you have unhealthy reasons to do so such as mental and coping problems, etc.
It's just not that hard for most people to regularly overeat (I'd argue we are genetically programmed in many cases to want to eat if tasty food is around, so it's important to be aware of that and lean to combat it, not to pretend that a healthy person just won't want to eat above their calories for maintenance). A smaller portion of the population seems to find it hard to overeat no matter what environment, no matter how high cal the foods around (and you can have nutrient dense but high cal foods quite easily).
Even now I find that I have to avoid snacking and eat only at meals (and be mindful about how many calories are in the meals in a general way), or else it's really easy to go over calories, even if my diet is quite nutrient dense, has plenty of fiber and protein, etc.
What's the point of claiming that there must be something wrong with people who find it easy to gain weight, or that they must not be concerned with nutrition, etc., or eating tons of junk food?
My example is something of an extreme one, too. What I think is even more common is people gaining 2-3 lbs a year (maybe more from pregnancy weight not lost) over a period of 20 years or so, and realizing in their 40s or 50s that they are obese.12 -
Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »
The more bizarre claim that OP made is that you can't become obese if you are healthy.
But obviously someone BMI 26 (which is overweight) can be healthy. [Note: I see later you referenced obese only, but the initial post I was responding too said overweight.]
I still fail to see how anyone could be obese and healthy. You simply cannot become obese following a healthy lifestyle. (Which includes a healthy and educated perception of how much one should eat, exercise, and not eating as a coping mechanism, all unhealthy behaviors)
Body builders sometimes struggle when they have to bulk for months because it’s HARD to eat enough to put on so much weight if you are exercising and eating a balanced diet long term. It’s easy to gain a few lbs over indulging, but not the amount to become obese.
I don’t know any obese people who exercise and eat right. I thought I did, but after living with two I realized both had a secret binging problem.
Actually, I know a few people who had generally healthy habits that ended up overweight or even obese. That usually accompanied a change in habits (new jobs, having kids, etc) that meant they were not as active as they had been but hadn't adjusted their eating habits to match and gained weight over time (1-2 years, so they probably gained at about a rate of .5 lb per week on average). They weren't binging, just eating day-to-day according to the habits they had when they were significantly more active.
Obviously, if a person has progressed to the higher risk obesity classes (35+ BMI) it's probable that there are co-existing psychological or behavioral issues that need to be addressed. It's a bad assumption that this is always the case for people who the overweight or low-risk obesity classes, however.
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Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »
The more bizarre claim that OP made is that you can't become obese if you are healthy.
But obviously someone BMI 26 (which is overweight) can be healthy. [Note: I see later you referenced obese only, but the initial post I was responding too said overweight.]
I still fail to see how anyone could be obese and healthy.
You are misstating the claim. What OP said is that a healthy person is incapable of becoming obese, that it requires that one already have a health problem in order to become obese.
As for whether one can be obese and be healthy, it depends on how we define healthy. Obesity is a risk factor. To minimize the change of developing a health problem, it is something that should be changed (along with other risk factors, like eating a bad diet, not exercising, lack of sleep, stress, drinking to excess, smoking). The idea of healthier at any size (in a good way -- I have big issues with what HAES has become) is that even obese people can improve their risk factors (even if for them weight loss has led to unhealthy things like restricting and bingeing or rapid loss and regain). It says you focus on the risk factors that you feel like you can control -- improve the diet, become more active.
I would personally separate being currently unhealthy (having bad test results or a medical condition) from having risk factors that ideally should be reduced. Saying someone may currently be healthy yet obese does not mean it's not a risk factor that can be avoided and that it's not better to lose weight, but one does not automatically suffer from poor health as soon as one hits 30 BMI.
26 BMI is not much of a risk factor, and that's the number I mentioned.You simply cannot become obese following a healthy lifestyle.
If you define as "a healthy lifestyle" never overeating or not eating even a little over one's maintenance for a period of years, I suppose, but that's a circular argument and so not very interesting.
I don't think most people equate "being healthy" and "always living a healthy lifestyle in all ways" and usually when people are claimed to not eat a healthy diet, they mean nutrient poor or too high in sugar and unhealthy fats or some such. Or bingeing behaviors, perhaps. Not merely eating enough to gain 2-5 lbs per year, and it's easy to become obese doing that, over time.
I think most people don't find it that hard to overeat some when food is available, and most probably don't have a good natural sense of how much they are eating vs. their maintenance requirements without some reason to start focusing on this and learn.2 -
Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »If you look at the "why did I gain weight" thread, 99 percent of the reasons are due to not being healthy. (Coping mechanisms, eating too much, eating too much high calorie food, being lazy, not being active etc)
I still would not classify eating too much as being "healthy" regardless of what the diet is made up of. It seems as though eating too much is a result of UNHEALTHY coping mechanisms or circumstances, thus leading to obesity.
No one comments "I got obese by eating a healthy diet and I didn't have any unhealthy mental issues". And I have not seen one person get morbidly obese while eating a healthy diet (not grossly more than they need), exercising, and without mental issues.
I sense this might just be a tautological claim. If mental issues that are the level that is unhealthy is so broadly defined as "I may have eaten food at some point to be happier" than I'm not sure there exists healthy people. If everyone is unhealthy, then of course, all overweight people are unhealthy too.10
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