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Processed foods cause more weight gain

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Replies

  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Your post wasn't particularly about processed foods.

    McD's burgers ARE processed foods.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processed_meat

    As you can see fresh ground beef is NOT considered to be a processed meat however McD bacon and sausage are processed foods. Because it is fresh unprocessed meat McD can not run to another McD store and pick up a box of fresh never frozen 1/4 pound ground beef because not being a processed food it has to stay refrigerated until it goes on the grill.

    One of the local store owner does Low Carb High Fat so I learned more about why McD like others are offering LCHF WOE's. McD is the best source for coffee I have found nationwide in most every town in the USA and they use real half and half creamer and not the processed food creamers.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    If you read the actual study, the reason the ULTRAprocessed foods selected led to more weight gain than the unprocessed or minimally processed foods is because people ate more calories of the ultraprocessed foods.

    There are a variety of reasons why that is unsurprising. None have to do with the gut biome.

    Your own (non-reliable) source on Roundup asserts that it is not only on ultraprocessed foods, so the whole topic seems obviously off the topic of this thread. Perhaps you should start a thread on the gut biome or Monsanto.

    Here is the link you suggested to be started.

    https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10746790/gut-microbiome-impact-on-health-and-fitness

  • Phirrgus
    Phirrgus Posts: 1,894 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    It is true, however, that ultraprocessed foods and the subset of them called fast foods were certainly available in the '70s, and yet the obesity rate was much less, so blaming them for the obesity crisis seems to leave out relevant factors. I grew up in the '70s and '80s, and my mom used some ultraprocessed foods (canned soups were common, we had the boxed mac and cheese sometimes, we had after school snacks that were ultraprocessed, Eggos sometimes as a treat, fish sticks, TV dinners as a treat when my parents went out). We also got take out pizza or fast food on occasion (truly occasionally), usually the fast food as a treat with a group of other kids and parents after some event. I recall my favorite was Long John Silvers, heh. And orange juice or apple juice was a necessary part of breakfast.

    But childhood obesity and even adult obesity in our social circles was really rare, and the existence of these ultraprocessed convenience foods didn't mean we overate or ate bad diets. Regular meals would include fruit and vegetables (dinners would always be a protein (meat, my parents would have been confused by vegetarian meals back then), a starch (corn, potatoes, peas, bread, maybe spaghetti, maybe sweet potatoes, but most commonly potatoes or corn), and a non starchy veg (or maybe salad). The veg weren't always the best, they were too often canned, but we were expected to eat them and it wasn't okay not to. I learned to like them okay, although once I was cooking on my own and going to better restaurants I appreciated them much more.

    We also did not eat a ton of sweets, just an after school snack of a reasonable size or occasionally my mom would bake cookies (sometimes from a box, sometimes not). My dad was into those jello puddings after dinner for a while, but they weren't a ton of calories. We'd sometimes have popcorn (popped in a pot with oil).

    We ate a reasonable diet, especially for our level of activity.

    When people now claim to eat only ultraprocessed foods or to eat constantly or consume huge amounts of soda (soda was a very rare treat for us and half a can was a normal serving, my sister and I would share), or -- especially -- not to have ever eaten veg growing up, that is NOT caused by the existence of the same kinds of foods that have existed for a long time, and that I and many others grew up with without going to excess. It's got to be cultural or (for adults) decisions to act unreasonably or indulgently. That's why claiming it's the food rather than unreasonable choices involving the foods is wrong.

    Loving this post. Nothing in there I would change or argue with.
  • wmd1979
    wmd1979 Posts: 469 Member
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    The article is deceptive in my opinion, especially in regards to the quote shown in the OP.
    The study provided NOTHING but "ultra-processed" foods to one group and NOTHING but fresher, more whole foods to the other.
    The article mentions that each group was given an equal amount of protein, fat and carbs but then later concedes that the ultra-processed group ate more fat and carbs than the other.

    What actually happened was they put the same amount of each macro on the table for each group but didn't control how much of each macro either group consumed.
    The ultra-processed group ate less protein and more fat/carbs which is easy to comprehend, considering the amount of protein in hot dogs and pb&j sandwiches is far less than in whole meats.

    All this shows is that "ultra-processed" foods tend to be:
    1) highly palatable
    2) calorie dense
    3) lower in protein than more whole foods
    4) less satiating than more whole foods

    This typically leads to overeating in those whose diet consists mainly (or entirely as in the case of this study) of "ultra-processed" foods.

    Thus, the claim that processed foods cause weight gain remains false. The link between processed foods and weight gain remains correlative as the actual cause of weight gain is overeating.

    I think a better study would have included these two groups, a third that was offered a mix of whole and processed foods, then two more that are fed similarly to the first two groups, but with actual consumption of calories controlled.

    Exactly. I could put the same amount of calories in Oreo's and milk on one table, and rice on another table, and I would imagine that most people would eat more calories worth of Oreo's because they are more calorie dense, and less satiating. It would be far easier to over indulge on a hyper palatable, calorie dense food. That doesn't mean that processed foods are the reason for the obesity epidemic. This is why most people who give good advice on this site tend to advocate for a varied diet consisting of whole foods and the occasional treat. Everything in moderation. The problem is, a lot of processed foods are quick and easy, and it can be very easy to move less and eat more especially when people are busy and don't have a lot of extra free time.

    Actually it does mean that processed foods are the reason for the obesity epidemic, in that the ready availability of processed, hyper-palatable foods changes the way a large number of people choose to eat. When a behavior is epidemic, what that means is that many people have all decided to behave in a new way at the same exact time for some reason. The amount of willpower in America hasn’t sharply declined since the 50’s. The amount of people who believe in the common-sense phrase “everything in moderation” hasn’t gone down. Human nature hasn’t changed. What has changed is the environment, which makes it more likely that the same exact kind of people will trend towards different choices.

    It doesn’t matter, when looking at an epidemic, that a few individuals buck the trend by making the harder choice to seek out and cook whole foods. Because epidemics of behavior aren’t measured on an individual level, they are measured at a population level.

    Oh, so it is all the foods fault, and individuals bear no responsibility whatsoever in their obesity? Thats good to know. I had no idea that there was no such thing as processed foods in the past and they suddenly appeared and made people fat. You say the amount of willpower in America hasn't sharply declined since the 50's, and that may be true, but I believe that advances in technology has led to a society where the average human moves less and eats more. People have more sedentary jobs now than they did in the past. Almost everything is automated now and doesn't require manual labor. Want to play baseball? Great, turn on your PS4 instead of meeting your friends at the sandlot. Blaming foods is such a cop out and its just another way to avoid taking responsibility for our choices.

    The first two sentences of yours aren't at all an accurate, reasonable or fair representation of what rheddmobile said. It's this kind of over reactionary activism that strawmans so much and confuses the whole situation.

    The environment can have changed and the increased ready availability of hyper palatable foods can result in behavioural population differences without any changes in human nature, and I can still take responsibility for my food choices and know that if I pick calories as my variable, I can control my weight, and don't need to stress over whether the food I'm eating is "clean" or "processed" or not.

    External causes don't absolve you from all personal responsibility, and recognition of their existence isn't a threat.

    I am not sure where the disagreement between us is. I recognize that there are hyper palatable foods readily available now, but I also recognize it is my responsibility control what I consume. The fact that the foods exist doesn't make those foods responsible for making a person obese. It is still ultimately the individuals responsibility to make good food choices. I don't think that means that these hyper palatable foods need to be avoided altogether. I think that moderation is the key when it comes to these foods, and that a varied diet that stays within a persons caloric goals is key.
  • J72FIT
    J72FIT Posts: 6,000 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    My point is that it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to make this some kind of polarized argument between "It's all about people's choices" vs. "the evil corporations did this to us" vs. "it's the bad food" vs. whatever, in order to fix blame. Fixing blame is pointless.

    It's not "one key cause". That's too simple. At the population level, it's a complicated, multi-part, self-reinforcing system. Figuring out the best places to put a monkey wrench in those works seems more useful.

    Amen...
  • comeonnow142857
    comeonnow142857 Posts: 310 Member
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    The article is deceptive in my opinion, especially in regards to the quote shown in the OP.
    The study provided NOTHING but "ultra-processed" foods to one group and NOTHING but fresher, more whole foods to the other.
    The article mentions that each group was given an equal amount of protein, fat and carbs but then later concedes that the ultra-processed group ate more fat and carbs than the other.

    What actually happened was they put the same amount of each macro on the table for each group but didn't control how much of each macro either group consumed.
    The ultra-processed group ate less protein and more fat/carbs which is easy to comprehend, considering the amount of protein in hot dogs and pb&j sandwiches is far less than in whole meats.

    All this shows is that "ultra-processed" foods tend to be:
    1) highly palatable
    2) calorie dense
    3) lower in protein than more whole foods
    4) less satiating than more whole foods

    This typically leads to overeating in those whose diet consists mainly (or entirely as in the case of this study) of "ultra-processed" foods.

    Thus, the claim that processed foods cause weight gain remains false. The link between processed foods and weight gain remains correlative as the actual cause of weight gain is overeating.

    I think a better study would have included these two groups, a third that was offered a mix of whole and processed foods, then two more that are fed similarly to the first two groups, but with actual consumption of calories controlled.

    Exactly. I could put the same amount of calories in Oreo's and milk on one table, and rice on another table, and I would imagine that most people would eat more calories worth of Oreo's because they are more calorie dense, and less satiating. It would be far easier to over indulge on a hyper palatable, calorie dense food. That doesn't mean that processed foods are the reason for the obesity epidemic. This is why most people who give good advice on this site tend to advocate for a varied diet consisting of whole foods and the occasional treat. Everything in moderation. The problem is, a lot of processed foods are quick and easy, and it can be very easy to move less and eat more especially when people are busy and don't have a lot of extra free time.

    Actually it does mean that processed foods are the reason for the obesity epidemic, in that the ready availability of processed, hyper-palatable foods changes the way a large number of people choose to eat. When a behavior is epidemic, what that means is that many people have all decided to behave in a new way at the same exact time for some reason. The amount of willpower in America hasn’t sharply declined since the 50’s. The amount of people who believe in the common-sense phrase “everything in moderation” hasn’t gone down. Human nature hasn’t changed. What has changed is the environment, which makes it more likely that the same exact kind of people will trend towards different choices.

    It doesn’t matter, when looking at an epidemic, that a few individuals buck the trend by making the harder choice to seek out and cook whole foods. Because epidemics of behavior aren’t measured on an individual level, they are measured at a population level.

    Oh, so it is all the foods fault, and individuals bear no responsibility whatsoever in their obesity? Thats good to know. I had no idea that there was no such thing as processed foods in the past and they suddenly appeared and made people fat. You say the amount of willpower in America hasn't sharply declined since the 50's, and that may be true, but I believe that advances in technology has led to a society where the average human moves less and eats more. People have more sedentary jobs now than they did in the past. Almost everything is automated now and doesn't require manual labor. Want to play baseball? Great, turn on your PS4 instead of meeting your friends at the sandlot. Blaming foods is such a cop out and its just another way to avoid taking responsibility for our choices.

    The first two sentences of yours aren't at all an accurate, reasonable or fair representation of what rheddmobile said. It's this kind of over reactionary activism that strawmans so much and confuses the whole situation.

    The environment can have changed and the increased ready availability of hyper palatable foods can result in behavioural population differences without any changes in human nature, and I can still take responsibility for my food choices and know that if I pick calories as my variable, I can control my weight, and don't need to stress over whether the food I'm eating is "clean" or "processed" or not.

    External causes don't absolve you from all personal responsibility, and recognition of their existence isn't a threat.

    I am not sure where the disagreement between us is. I recognize that there are hyper palatable foods readily available now, but I also recognize it is my responsibility control what I consume. The fact that the foods exist doesn't make those foods responsible for making a person obese. It is still ultimately the individuals responsibility to make good food choices. I don't think that means that these hyper palatable foods need to be avoided altogether. I think that moderation is the key when it comes to these foods, and that a varied diet that stays within a persons caloric goals is key.

    The difference is this: "The first two sentences of yours aren't at all an accurate, reasonable or fair representation of what rheddmobile said."

    Namely, these (actually sentences 1 and 3, on closer look) "Oh, so it is all the foods fault, and individuals bear no responsibility whatsoever in their obesity? Thats good to know. I had no idea that there was no such thing as processed foods in the past and they suddenly appeared and made people fat.".
  • wmd1979
    wmd1979 Posts: 469 Member
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    The article is deceptive in my opinion, especially in regards to the quote shown in the OP.
    The study provided NOTHING but "ultra-processed" foods to one group and NOTHING but fresher, more whole foods to the other.
    The article mentions that each group was given an equal amount of protein, fat and carbs but then later concedes that the ultra-processed group ate more fat and carbs than the other.

    What actually happened was they put the same amount of each macro on the table for each group but didn't control how much of each macro either group consumed.
    The ultra-processed group ate less protein and more fat/carbs which is easy to comprehend, considering the amount of protein in hot dogs and pb&j sandwiches is far less than in whole meats.

    All this shows is that "ultra-processed" foods tend to be:
    1) highly palatable
    2) calorie dense
    3) lower in protein than more whole foods
    4) less satiating than more whole foods

    This typically leads to overeating in those whose diet consists mainly (or entirely as in the case of this study) of "ultra-processed" foods.

    Thus, the claim that processed foods cause weight gain remains false. The link between processed foods and weight gain remains correlative as the actual cause of weight gain is overeating.

    I think a better study would have included these two groups, a third that was offered a mix of whole and processed foods, then two more that are fed similarly to the first two groups, but with actual consumption of calories controlled.

    Exactly. I could put the same amount of calories in Oreo's and milk on one table, and rice on another table, and I would imagine that most people would eat more calories worth of Oreo's because they are more calorie dense, and less satiating. It would be far easier to over indulge on a hyper palatable, calorie dense food. That doesn't mean that processed foods are the reason for the obesity epidemic. This is why most people who give good advice on this site tend to advocate for a varied diet consisting of whole foods and the occasional treat. Everything in moderation. The problem is, a lot of processed foods are quick and easy, and it can be very easy to move less and eat more especially when people are busy and don't have a lot of extra free time.

    Actually it does mean that processed foods are the reason for the obesity epidemic, in that the ready availability of processed, hyper-palatable foods changes the way a large number of people choose to eat. When a behavior is epidemic, what that means is that many people have all decided to behave in a new way at the same exact time for some reason. The amount of willpower in America hasn’t sharply declined since the 50’s. The amount of people who believe in the common-sense phrase “everything in moderation” hasn’t gone down. Human nature hasn’t changed. What has changed is the environment, which makes it more likely that the same exact kind of people will trend towards different choices.

    It doesn’t matter, when looking at an epidemic, that a few individuals buck the trend by making the harder choice to seek out and cook whole foods. Because epidemics of behavior aren’t measured on an individual level, they are measured at a population level.

    Oh, so it is all the foods fault, and individuals bear no responsibility whatsoever in their obesity? Thats good to know. I had no idea that there was no such thing as processed foods in the past and they suddenly appeared and made people fat. You say the amount of willpower in America hasn't sharply declined since the 50's, and that may be true, but I believe that advances in technology has led to a society where the average human moves less and eats more. People have more sedentary jobs now than they did in the past. Almost everything is automated now and doesn't require manual labor. Want to play baseball? Great, turn on your PS4 instead of meeting your friends at the sandlot. Blaming foods is such a cop out and its just another way to avoid taking responsibility for our choices.

    The first two sentences of yours aren't at all an accurate, reasonable or fair representation of what rheddmobile said. It's this kind of over reactionary activism that strawmans so much and confuses the whole situation.

    The environment can have changed and the increased ready availability of hyper palatable foods can result in behavioural population differences without any changes in human nature, and I can still take responsibility for my food choices and know that if I pick calories as my variable, I can control my weight, and don't need to stress over whether the food I'm eating is "clean" or "processed" or not.

    External causes don't absolve you from all personal responsibility, and recognition of their existence isn't a threat.

    I am not sure where the disagreement between us is. I recognize that there are hyper palatable foods readily available now, but I also recognize it is my responsibility control what I consume. The fact that the foods exist doesn't make those foods responsible for making a person obese. It is still ultimately the individuals responsibility to make good food choices. I don't think that means that these hyper palatable foods need to be avoided altogether. I think that moderation is the key when it comes to these foods, and that a varied diet that stays within a persons caloric goals is key.

    The difference is this: "The first two sentences of yours aren't at all an accurate, reasonable or fair representation of what rheddmobile said."

    Namely, these (actually sentences 1 and 3, on closer look) "Oh, so it is all the foods fault, and individuals bear no responsibility whatsoever in their obesity? Thats good to know. I had no idea that there was no such thing as processed foods in the past and they suddenly appeared and made people fat.".

    I do think it was a fair representation. This is what I was responding to: "Actually it does mean that processed foods are the reason for the obesity epidemic, in that the ready availability of processed, hyper-palatable foods changes the way a large number of people choose to eat. When a behavior is epidemic, what that means is that many people have all decided to behave in a new way at the same exact time for some reason. The amount of willpower in America hasn’t sharply declined since the 50’s."

    Saying that processed foods are the reason for the obesity epidemic is way over simplifying things and I think it is flat out wrong. Saying that the amount of willpower in America hasn't declined also infers that people are powerless to resist processed foods. I wholeheartedly disagree. There have always been calorie dense foods, whether they are processed or not. It is still up to the individual to make good food choices.
  • JRsLateInLifeMom
    JRsLateInLifeMom Posts: 2,275 Member
    Don’t look at me anything I see in the news to studies say things like....
    Keto diet the greatest! Keto diet can harm you!
    Eggs are good! Now their bad! Now they cause cancer! Now their good again......quick eat an egg before the 6 o’clock news starts!!!!
  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Just saw this, related to the study discussed in this thread, so figured it was worth posting:

    https://conscienhealth.org/2019/10/digging-into-the-squishy-definition-for-ultra-processed-food/

    And from one of the links in the above article:

    https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(19)30307-9?_returnURL=https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1550413119303079?showall=true

    A bit from the link above (which echo some of the comments we here made):

    "On first pass, the primary findings of this 2-week study do not surprise us. Confine U.S. volunteers interested in a food study to a metabolic ward, give them unlimited access to processed foods that appeal to the American palate, allow them to eat as much of them as they like, and some will overeat. The critical questions are: What is driving food intake? Does this effect have relevance to the chronic control of body weight? We would like to make two main points.

    Diet composition. On the “ultra-processed” versus “unprocessed” diet, participants ate substantially more total carbohydrate, added sugar, saturated fat, and sodium, and less protein, polyunsaturated fat, and soluble fiber. Non-beverage energy density was 85% higher on the ultra-processed diet. Moreover, at 45 g per day, the unprocessed diet had almost triple the intrinsic fiber of an average Western diet. Each of these factors, previously linked to food intake or metabolism, may have influenced the study findings independently of food processing...."

    -and-

    "In fact, many of the foods utilized on the ultra-processed diet (e.g., breads, baked potato chips, and apple sauce) and various refined grain products are, from a food science perspective, no more extensively processed than olive oil, dark chocolate, or nut butters. The processing of olives to olive oil removes virtually all the fiber and fully disrupts the natural food structure. Dark chocolate typically contains a half-dozen or more refined ingredients. However, most of the aforementioned high-carbohydrate foods (e.g., white bread and potato chips) consistently top the list for weight gain in prospective studies (Mozaffarian et al., 2011), whereas these high-fat foods (e.g., olive oil) have the opposite effect. Furthermore, the study cannot tell us whether freshly baked bread, potato chips made from three natural ingredients, or applesauce made from two ingredients—each explicitly not ultra-processed (Monteiro et al., 2018)—would have any different effects than the varieties used instead.
    Thus, an understanding of the mechanisms by which ultra-processed foods may influence energy intake and adiposity is critical to solving the obesity epidemic. Carbohydrate processing accelerates the rate of digestion and subsequent postprandial glycemia and insulinemia, responses mechanistically linked to weight gain (Ludwig and Ebbeling, 2018). By contrast, the extent of processing has no comparable effect on high-protein and high-fat foods.

    The concept of ultra-processing (Monteiro et al., 2018) provides a useful system to identify industrial products with the worst of numerous nutritional qualities; substantial evidence links this dietary pattern with obesity and chronic diseases. However, the findings of Hall et al. may be transient and independent of processing per se. It might be tempting to attribute modern-day diet problems predominantly to food processing, thus implicitly shifting responsibility for the obesity epidemic to the food industry. But knowledge of the chronic drivers of food intake, including the metabolic effects of food independent of calorie content, is needed to mitigate the risks of misguiding the food industry in how to formulate more healthful food products, and the public in nutrition recommendations, as previously occurred during the low-fat diet era. Although data on the acute control of food intake can be useful, long-term studies will be needed to resolve these controversies."

    I will also add that one of my suspicions when looking at the menus was that the "unprocessed" menus appeared to be foods that would tend to be eaten more slowly, in part because they physically took more time (more volume) or were less likely to be the kinds of foods that a higher percentage of people would tend to eat quickly). Some of this is even hand food vs. foods that need to be eaten with utensils. Related to this is that the fiber in the unprocessed menu was intrinsic, and much of that in the ultra processed menu was added to a beverage. Since it was also "take as much as you want," that the ultraprocessed menu had foods like cookies and chips that many people are likely to eat even if not really hungry, and the final macro breakdown indicates that although the initial meals were balanced people taking seconds were taking more of the higher carb and fat and lower fiber and protein items, that also suggests that it's probably not simply about processing (and might not be about processing at all).

    So, to break it down.... it's not the food per se, but the brains response to certain food properties? Wow.... what a revelation these folks wrote.... @lemurcat2 not meant at you at all... but to the writers.... uhh duhhh!!!
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,102 Member
    edited October 2019
    Without doubting for a moment the validity of what's been argued in the previous couple of posts, with which I agree wholeheartedly:

    This study is tiny, preliminary, very imperfect . . . but still interesting IMO.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2897733/

    ;)

    ETA: There are people here on MFP majoring in tinier and less well-documented minors than the above. :lol:
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Just saw this, related to the study discussed in this thread, so figured it was worth posting:

    https://conscienhealth.org/2019/10/digging-into-the-squishy-definition-for-ultra-processed-food/

    And from one of the links in the above article:

    https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(19)30307-9?_returnURL=https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1550413119303079?showall=true

    A bit from the link above (which echo some of the comments we here made):

    "On first pass, the primary findings of this 2-week study do not surprise us. Confine U.S. volunteers interested in a food study to a metabolic ward, give them unlimited access to processed foods that appeal to the American palate, allow them to eat as much of them as they like, and some will overeat. The critical questions are: What is driving food intake? Does this effect have relevance to the chronic control of body weight? We would like to make two main points.

    Diet composition. On the “ultra-processed” versus “unprocessed” diet, participants ate substantially more total carbohydrate, added sugar, saturated fat, and sodium, and less protein, polyunsaturated fat, and soluble fiber. Non-beverage energy density was 85% higher on the ultra-processed diet. Moreover, at 45 g per day, the unprocessed diet had almost triple the intrinsic fiber of an average Western diet. Each of these factors, previously linked to food intake or metabolism, may have influenced the study findings independently of food processing...."

    -and-

    "In fact, many of the foods utilized on the ultra-processed diet (e.g., breads, baked potato chips, and apple sauce) and various refined grain products are, from a food science perspective, no more extensively processed than olive oil, dark chocolate, or nut butters. The processing of olives to olive oil removes virtually all the fiber and fully disrupts the natural food structure. Dark chocolate typically contains a half-dozen or more refined ingredients. However, most of the aforementioned high-carbohydrate foods (e.g., white bread and potato chips) consistently top the list for weight gain in prospective studies (Mozaffarian et al., 2011), whereas these high-fat foods (e.g., olive oil) have the opposite effect. Furthermore, the study cannot tell us whether freshly baked bread, potato chips made from three natural ingredients, or applesauce made from two ingredients—each explicitly not ultra-processed (Monteiro et al., 2018)—would have any different effects than the varieties used instead.
    Thus, an understanding of the mechanisms by which ultra-processed foods may influence energy intake and adiposity is critical to solving the obesity epidemic. Carbohydrate processing accelerates the rate of digestion and subsequent postprandial glycemia and insulinemia, responses mechanistically linked to weight gain (Ludwig and Ebbeling, 2018). By contrast, the extent of processing has no comparable effect on high-protein and high-fat foods.

    The concept of ultra-processing (Monteiro et al., 2018) provides a useful system to identify industrial products with the worst of numerous nutritional qualities; substantial evidence links this dietary pattern with obesity and chronic diseases. However, the findings of Hall et al. may be transient and independent of processing per se. It might be tempting to attribute modern-day diet problems predominantly to food processing, thus implicitly shifting responsibility for the obesity epidemic to the food industry. But knowledge of the chronic drivers of food intake, including the metabolic effects of food independent of calorie content, is needed to mitigate the risks of misguiding the food industry in how to formulate more healthful food products, and the public in nutrition recommendations, as previously occurred during the low-fat diet era. Although data on the acute control of food intake can be useful, long-term studies will be needed to resolve these controversies."

    I will also add that one of my suspicions when looking at the menus was that the "unprocessed" menus appeared to be foods that would tend to be eaten more slowly, in part because they physically took more time (more volume) or were less likely to be the kinds of foods that a higher percentage of people would tend to eat quickly). Some of this is even hand food vs. foods that need to be eaten with utensils. Related to this is that the fiber in the unprocessed menu was intrinsic, and much of that in the ultra processed menu was added to a beverage. Since it was also "take as much as you want," that the ultraprocessed menu had foods like cookies and chips that many people are likely to eat even if not really hungry, and the final macro breakdown indicates that although the initial meals were balanced people taking seconds were taking more of the higher carb and fat and lower fiber and protein items, that also suggests that it's probably not simply about processing (and might not be about processing at all).

    So, to break it down.... it's not the food per se, but the brains response to certain food properties? Wow.... what a revelation these folks wrote.... @lemurcat2 not meant at you at all... but to the writers.... uhh duhhh!!!

    Remember, the study was supposed to look at ultra processed vs. unprocessed.

    As the article and piece I linked noted, what "ultraprocessed" is tends to be a really squishy definition with lots of foods that are said to fit -- and probably do tend to be easily overeaten (like fries or potato chips) being at least potentially no more "processed" than plenty of foods in the minimally processed definition.

    So rather than tell everyone their first concern ought to be the amount of processing that their foods went through, maybe it makes sense to try to figure out WHY the two menus had different responses, with different macros and different calories consumed. Is it truly the amount of processing only? Or is it something else?

    That something else they are talking about is likely to be "certain food properties."

    I do think it's helpful to consider why people tend to overeat certain foods.

    For example, if you tend to eat more (1000 cals, say) at a fast food meal vs. a burger-based meal made at home, why?

    You might argue it is because the former is hyperpalatable, and the latter not. I would disagree in that I personally think the latter unquestionably tastes better. I would say it is because it's second nature if not worrying about cals to just get the fries as a side, and that the burger for the same size is usually more cals at the fast food place, because of a combination of higher fat meat and (in some cases) higher fat toppings.

    When I made a burger at home, I tend to use lean ground beef, I'm less likely to add cheese, I get either low cal or higher fiber (whole grain) buns or will consider no bun, and I always eat a lot of veg on the side. And I don't have both bread (the bun) and potatoes (let alone fried ones) but for a special occasion. So the homemade meal is lower cal but a higher volume. I am probably going to feel overall more full too. But is it because the homemade meal is less "processed"? Because fast food is addictive or hyperpalatable or the homemade meal low reward? Absolutely not -- it's differences that in theory I could work into a more processed diet too (choose more veg, more fiber (in the food, not as a supplement), cut fat where it won't sacrifice satisfaction, make a meal that takes longer to eat, perhaps).
  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Just saw this, related to the study discussed in this thread, so figured it was worth posting:

    https://conscienhealth.org/2019/10/digging-into-the-squishy-definition-for-ultra-processed-food/

    And from one of the links in the above article:

    https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(19)30307-9?_returnURL=https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1550413119303079?showall=true

    A bit from the link above (which echo some of the comments we here made):

    "On first pass, the primary findings of this 2-week study do not surprise us. Confine U.S. volunteers interested in a food study to a metabolic ward, give them unlimited access to processed foods that appeal to the American palate, allow them to eat as much of them as they like, and some will overeat. The critical questions are: What is driving food intake? Does this effect have relevance to the chronic control of body weight? We would like to make two main points.

    Diet composition. On the “ultra-processed” versus “unprocessed” diet, participants ate substantially more total carbohydrate, added sugar, saturated fat, and sodium, and less protein, polyunsaturated fat, and soluble fiber. Non-beverage energy density was 85% higher on the ultra-processed diet. Moreover, at 45 g per day, the unprocessed diet had almost triple the intrinsic fiber of an average Western diet. Each of these factors, previously linked to food intake or metabolism, may have influenced the study findings independently of food processing...."

    -and-

    "In fact, many of the foods utilized on the ultra-processed diet (e.g., breads, baked potato chips, and apple sauce) and various refined grain products are, from a food science perspective, no more extensively processed than olive oil, dark chocolate, or nut butters. The processing of olives to olive oil removes virtually all the fiber and fully disrupts the natural food structure. Dark chocolate typically contains a half-dozen or more refined ingredients. However, most of the aforementioned high-carbohydrate foods (e.g., white bread and potato chips) consistently top the list for weight gain in prospective studies (Mozaffarian et al., 2011), whereas these high-fat foods (e.g., olive oil) have the opposite effect. Furthermore, the study cannot tell us whether freshly baked bread, potato chips made from three natural ingredients, or applesauce made from two ingredients—each explicitly not ultra-processed (Monteiro et al., 2018)—would have any different effects than the varieties used instead.
    Thus, an understanding of the mechanisms by which ultra-processed foods may influence energy intake and adiposity is critical to solving the obesity epidemic. Carbohydrate processing accelerates the rate of digestion and subsequent postprandial glycemia and insulinemia, responses mechanistically linked to weight gain (Ludwig and Ebbeling, 2018). By contrast, the extent of processing has no comparable effect on high-protein and high-fat foods.

    The concept of ultra-processing (Monteiro et al., 2018) provides a useful system to identify industrial products with the worst of numerous nutritional qualities; substantial evidence links this dietary pattern with obesity and chronic diseases. However, the findings of Hall et al. may be transient and independent of processing per se. It might be tempting to attribute modern-day diet problems predominantly to food processing, thus implicitly shifting responsibility for the obesity epidemic to the food industry. But knowledge of the chronic drivers of food intake, including the metabolic effects of food independent of calorie content, is needed to mitigate the risks of misguiding the food industry in how to formulate more healthful food products, and the public in nutrition recommendations, as previously occurred during the low-fat diet era. Although data on the acute control of food intake can be useful, long-term studies will be needed to resolve these controversies."

    I will also add that one of my suspicions when looking at the menus was that the "unprocessed" menus appeared to be foods that would tend to be eaten more slowly, in part because they physically took more time (more volume) or were less likely to be the kinds of foods that a higher percentage of people would tend to eat quickly). Some of this is even hand food vs. foods that need to be eaten with utensils. Related to this is that the fiber in the unprocessed menu was intrinsic, and much of that in the ultra processed menu was added to a beverage. Since it was also "take as much as you want," that the ultraprocessed menu had foods like cookies and chips that many people are likely to eat even if not really hungry, and the final macro breakdown indicates that although the initial meals were balanced people taking seconds were taking more of the higher carb and fat and lower fiber and protein items, that also suggests that it's probably not simply about processing (and might not be about processing at all).

    So, to break it down.... it's not the food per se, but the brains response to certain food properties? Wow.... what a revelation these folks wrote.... @lemurcat2 not meant at you at all... but to the writers.... uhh duhhh!!!

    Remember, the study was supposed to look at ultra processed vs. unprocessed.

    As the article and piece I linked noted, what "ultraprocessed" is tends to be a really squishy definition with lots of foods that are said to fit -- and probably do tend to be easily overeaten (like fries or potato chips) being at least potentially no more "processed" than plenty of foods in the minimally processed definition.

    So rather than tell everyone their first concern ought to be the amount of processing that their foods went through, maybe it makes sense to try to figure out WHY the two menus had different responses, with different macros and different calories consumed. Is it truly the amount of processing only? Or is it something else?

    That something else they are talking about is likely to be "certain food properties."

    I do think it's helpful to consider why people tend to overeat certain foods.

    For example, if you tend to eat more (1000 cals, say) at a fast food meal vs. a burger-based meal made at home, why?

    You might argue it is because the former is hyperpalatable, and the latter not. I would disagree in that I personally think the latter unquestionably tastes better. I would say it is because it's second nature if not worrying about cals to just get the fries as a side, and that the burger for the same size is usually more cals at the fast food place, because of a combination of higher fat meat and (in some cases) higher fat toppings.

    When I made a burger at home, I tend to use lean ground beef, I'm less likely to add cheese, I get either low cal or higher fiber (whole grain) buns or will consider no bun, and I always eat a lot of veg on the side. And I don't have both bread (the bun) and potatoes (let alone fried ones) but for a special occasion. So the homemade meal is lower cal but a higher volume. I am probably going to feel overall more full too. But is it because the homemade meal is less "processed"? Because fast food is addictive or hyperpalatable or the homemade meal low reward? Absolutely not -- it's differences that in theory I could work into a more processed diet too (choose more veg, more fiber (in the food, not as a supplement), cut fat where it won't sacrifice satisfaction, make a meal that takes longer to eat, perhaps).

    So, the homemade burger is less calorie dense correct? No cheese? , higher fiber? Looks lower reward value to me....
  • tbright1965
    tbright1965 Posts: 852 Member
    edited October 2019
    As a tangential item that may be of interest in this topic, I heard a podcast last week about re-engineering the french fry to last even longer in response to the trend of meal delivery.

    https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=772775254

    sorry, edited to add a non-transcript link for those who wish to listen: https://www.npr.org/2019/10/23/772775254/episode-946-fries-of-the-future

    So not only do you not need to go into the fast food joint to get it, now you don't even need to go to your car, the fries will come to you.

    And they'll be crispy longer, meaning you won't throw half of them out because they are no longer yummy after 10 minutes.
  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    Why I love Kevin Hall....
    https://youtu.be/_im2zAuBmME
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,102 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Just saw this, related to the study discussed in this thread, so figured it was worth posting:

    https://conscienhealth.org/2019/10/digging-into-the-squishy-definition-for-ultra-processed-food/

    And from one of the links in the above article:

    https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(19)30307-9?_returnURL=https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1550413119303079?showall=true

    A bit from the link above (which echo some of the comments we here made):

    "On first pass, the primary findings of this 2-week study do not surprise us. Confine U.S. volunteers interested in a food study to a metabolic ward, give them unlimited access to processed foods that appeal to the American palate, allow them to eat as much of them as they like, and some will overeat. The critical questions are: What is driving food intake? Does this effect have relevance to the chronic control of body weight? We would like to make two main points.

    Diet composition. On the “ultra-processed” versus “unprocessed” diet, participants ate substantially more total carbohydrate, added sugar, saturated fat, and sodium, and less protein, polyunsaturated fat, and soluble fiber. Non-beverage energy density was 85% higher on the ultra-processed diet. Moreover, at 45 g per day, the unprocessed diet had almost triple the intrinsic fiber of an average Western diet. Each of these factors, previously linked to food intake or metabolism, may have influenced the study findings independently of food processing...."

    -and-

    "In fact, many of the foods utilized on the ultra-processed diet (e.g., breads, baked potato chips, and apple sauce) and various refined grain products are, from a food science perspective, no more extensively processed than olive oil, dark chocolate, or nut butters. The processing of olives to olive oil removes virtually all the fiber and fully disrupts the natural food structure. Dark chocolate typically contains a half-dozen or more refined ingredients. However, most of the aforementioned high-carbohydrate foods (e.g., white bread and potato chips) consistently top the list for weight gain in prospective studies (Mozaffarian et al., 2011), whereas these high-fat foods (e.g., olive oil) have the opposite effect. Furthermore, the study cannot tell us whether freshly baked bread, potato chips made from three natural ingredients, or applesauce made from two ingredients—each explicitly not ultra-processed (Monteiro et al., 2018)—would have any different effects than the varieties used instead.
    Thus, an understanding of the mechanisms by which ultra-processed foods may influence energy intake and adiposity is critical to solving the obesity epidemic. Carbohydrate processing accelerates the rate of digestion and subsequent postprandial glycemia and insulinemia, responses mechanistically linked to weight gain (Ludwig and Ebbeling, 2018). By contrast, the extent of processing has no comparable effect on high-protein and high-fat foods.

    The concept of ultra-processing (Monteiro et al., 2018) provides a useful system to identify industrial products with the worst of numerous nutritional qualities; substantial evidence links this dietary pattern with obesity and chronic diseases. However, the findings of Hall et al. may be transient and independent of processing per se. It might be tempting to attribute modern-day diet problems predominantly to food processing, thus implicitly shifting responsibility for the obesity epidemic to the food industry. But knowledge of the chronic drivers of food intake, including the metabolic effects of food independent of calorie content, is needed to mitigate the risks of misguiding the food industry in how to formulate more healthful food products, and the public in nutrition recommendations, as previously occurred during the low-fat diet era. Although data on the acute control of food intake can be useful, long-term studies will be needed to resolve these controversies."

    I will also add that one of my suspicions when looking at the menus was that the "unprocessed" menus appeared to be foods that would tend to be eaten more slowly, in part because they physically took more time (more volume) or were less likely to be the kinds of foods that a higher percentage of people would tend to eat quickly). Some of this is even hand food vs. foods that need to be eaten with utensils. Related to this is that the fiber in the unprocessed menu was intrinsic, and much of that in the ultra processed menu was added to a beverage. Since it was also "take as much as you want," that the ultraprocessed menu had foods like cookies and chips that many people are likely to eat even if not really hungry, and the final macro breakdown indicates that although the initial meals were balanced people taking seconds were taking more of the higher carb and fat and lower fiber and protein items, that also suggests that it's probably not simply about processing (and might not be about processing at all).

    So, to break it down.... it's not the food per se, but the brains response to certain food properties? Wow.... what a revelation these folks wrote.... @lemurcat2 not meant at you at all... but to the writers.... uhh duhhh!!!

    Remember, the study was supposed to look at ultra processed vs. unprocessed.

    As the article and piece I linked noted, what "ultraprocessed" is tends to be a really squishy definition with lots of foods that are said to fit -- and probably do tend to be easily overeaten (like fries or potato chips) being at least potentially no more "processed" than plenty of foods in the minimally processed definition.

    So rather than tell everyone their first concern ought to be the amount of processing that their foods went through, maybe it makes sense to try to figure out WHY the two menus had different responses, with different macros and different calories consumed. Is it truly the amount of processing only? Or is it something else?

    That something else they are talking about is likely to be "certain food properties."

    I do think it's helpful to consider why people tend to overeat certain foods.

    For example, if you tend to eat more (1000 cals, say) at a fast food meal vs. a burger-based meal made at home, why?

    You might argue it is because the former is hyperpalatable, and the latter not. I would disagree in that I personally think the latter unquestionably tastes better. I would say it is because it's second nature if not worrying about cals to just get the fries as a side, and that the burger for the same size is usually more cals at the fast food place, because of a combination of higher fat meat and (in some cases) higher fat toppings.

    When I made a burger at home, I tend to use lean ground beef, I'm less likely to add cheese, I get either low cal or higher fiber (whole grain) buns or will consider no bun, and I always eat a lot of veg on the side. And I don't have both bread (the bun) and potatoes (let alone fried ones) but for a special occasion. So the homemade meal is lower cal but a higher volume. I am probably going to feel overall more full too. But is it because the homemade meal is less "processed"? Because fast food is addictive or hyperpalatable or the homemade meal low reward? Absolutely not -- it's differences that in theory I could work into a more processed diet too (choose more veg, more fiber (in the food, not as a supplement), cut fat where it won't sacrifice satisfaction, make a meal that takes longer to eat, perhaps).

    So, the homemade burger is less calorie dense correct? No cheese? , higher fiber? Looks lower reward value to me....

    (1) Define reward value (like satiation vs. nummies, or something else), and

    (2) Almost no matter how you define "reward value", it's subjective and/or individualized.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    edited October 2019
    psychod787 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Just saw this, related to the study discussed in this thread, so figured it was worth posting:

    https://conscienhealth.org/2019/10/digging-into-the-squishy-definition-for-ultra-processed-food/

    And from one of the links in the above article:

    https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(19)30307-9?_returnURL=https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1550413119303079?showall=true

    A bit from the link above (which echo some of the comments we here made):

    "On first pass, the primary findings of this 2-week study do not surprise us. Confine U.S. volunteers interested in a food study to a metabolic ward, give them unlimited access to processed foods that appeal to the American palate, allow them to eat as much of them as they like, and some will overeat. The critical questions are: What is driving food intake? Does this effect have relevance to the chronic control of body weight? We would like to make two main points.

    Diet composition. On the “ultra-processed” versus “unprocessed” diet, participants ate substantially more total carbohydrate, added sugar, saturated fat, and sodium, and less protein, polyunsaturated fat, and soluble fiber. Non-beverage energy density was 85% higher on the ultra-processed diet. Moreover, at 45 g per day, the unprocessed diet had almost triple the intrinsic fiber of an average Western diet. Each of these factors, previously linked to food intake or metabolism, may have influenced the study findings independently of food processing...."

    -and-

    "In fact, many of the foods utilized on the ultra-processed diet (e.g., breads, baked potato chips, and apple sauce) and various refined grain products are, from a food science perspective, no more extensively processed than olive oil, dark chocolate, or nut butters. The processing of olives to olive oil removes virtually all the fiber and fully disrupts the natural food structure. Dark chocolate typically contains a half-dozen or more refined ingredients. However, most of the aforementioned high-carbohydrate foods (e.g., white bread and potato chips) consistently top the list for weight gain in prospective studies (Mozaffarian et al., 2011), whereas these high-fat foods (e.g., olive oil) have the opposite effect. Furthermore, the study cannot tell us whether freshly baked bread, potato chips made from three natural ingredients, or applesauce made from two ingredients—each explicitly not ultra-processed (Monteiro et al., 2018)—would have any different effects than the varieties used instead.
    Thus, an understanding of the mechanisms by which ultra-processed foods may influence energy intake and adiposity is critical to solving the obesity epidemic. Carbohydrate processing accelerates the rate of digestion and subsequent postprandial glycemia and insulinemia, responses mechanistically linked to weight gain (Ludwig and Ebbeling, 2018). By contrast, the extent of processing has no comparable effect on high-protein and high-fat foods.

    The concept of ultra-processing (Monteiro et al., 2018) provides a useful system to identify industrial products with the worst of numerous nutritional qualities; substantial evidence links this dietary pattern with obesity and chronic diseases. However, the findings of Hall et al. may be transient and independent of processing per se. It might be tempting to attribute modern-day diet problems predominantly to food processing, thus implicitly shifting responsibility for the obesity epidemic to the food industry. But knowledge of the chronic drivers of food intake, including the metabolic effects of food independent of calorie content, is needed to mitigate the risks of misguiding the food industry in how to formulate more healthful food products, and the public in nutrition recommendations, as previously occurred during the low-fat diet era. Although data on the acute control of food intake can be useful, long-term studies will be needed to resolve these controversies."

    I will also add that one of my suspicions when looking at the menus was that the "unprocessed" menus appeared to be foods that would tend to be eaten more slowly, in part because they physically took more time (more volume) or were less likely to be the kinds of foods that a higher percentage of people would tend to eat quickly). Some of this is even hand food vs. foods that need to be eaten with utensils. Related to this is that the fiber in the unprocessed menu was intrinsic, and much of that in the ultra processed menu was added to a beverage. Since it was also "take as much as you want," that the ultraprocessed menu had foods like cookies and chips that many people are likely to eat even if not really hungry, and the final macro breakdown indicates that although the initial meals were balanced people taking seconds were taking more of the higher carb and fat and lower fiber and protein items, that also suggests that it's probably not simply about processing (and might not be about processing at all).

    So, to break it down.... it's not the food per se, but the brains response to certain food properties? Wow.... what a revelation these folks wrote.... @lemurcat2 not meant at you at all... but to the writers.... uhh duhhh!!!

    Remember, the study was supposed to look at ultra processed vs. unprocessed.

    As the article and piece I linked noted, what "ultraprocessed" is tends to be a really squishy definition with lots of foods that are said to fit -- and probably do tend to be easily overeaten (like fries or potato chips) being at least potentially no more "processed" than plenty of foods in the minimally processed definition.

    So rather than tell everyone their first concern ought to be the amount of processing that their foods went through, maybe it makes sense to try to figure out WHY the two menus had different responses, with different macros and different calories consumed. Is it truly the amount of processing only? Or is it something else?

    That something else they are talking about is likely to be "certain food properties."

    I do think it's helpful to consider why people tend to overeat certain foods.

    For example, if you tend to eat more (1000 cals, say) at a fast food meal vs. a burger-based meal made at home, why?

    You might argue it is because the former is hyperpalatable, and the latter not. I would disagree in that I personally think the latter unquestionably tastes better. I would say it is because it's second nature if not worrying about cals to just get the fries as a side, and that the burger for the same size is usually more cals at the fast food place, because of a combination of higher fat meat and (in some cases) higher fat toppings.

    When I made a burger at home, I tend to use lean ground beef, I'm less likely to add cheese, I get either low cal or higher fiber (whole grain) buns or will consider no bun, and I always eat a lot of veg on the side. And I don't have both bread (the bun) and potatoes (let alone fried ones) but for a special occasion. So the homemade meal is lower cal but a higher volume. I am probably going to feel overall more full too. But is it because the homemade meal is less "processed"? Because fast food is addictive or hyperpalatable or the homemade meal low reward? Absolutely not -- it's differences that in theory I could work into a more processed diet too (choose more veg, more fiber (in the food, not as a supplement), cut fat where it won't sacrifice satisfaction, make a meal that takes longer to eat, perhaps).

    So, the homemade burger is less calorie dense correct? No cheese? , higher fiber? Looks lower reward value to me....

    But in fact it is TASTIER (to my palate). So hardly "lower reward."

    I think claiming people overeat so-called hyperpalatable foods (and remember not all ultra processed foods are hyperpalatable and plenty of minimally processed ones can be) because they are so tasty they cannot stop eating them is typically wrong. Ironically, I think a careful reading of Michael Moss's book actually supports me in that view, because it provides information that supports an alternative explanation. I think the connection between so-called hyperpalatable or ultraprocessed foods is that at some point over the past 50 years we had a huge expansion in the availability of calories in reasonably tasty foods that require no work and are super cheap and, lagging a bit behind that, a cultural change such that eating lots of them instead of homecooked foods or, especially, in addition to meals throughout the day, has been normalized.
  • amusedmonkey
    amusedmonkey Posts: 10,330 Member
    edited October 2019
    psychod787 wrote: »
    Why I love Kevin Hall....
    https://youtu.be/_im2zAuBmME

    I found this study interesting back when it came out, but did not have the time to discuss it properly. I'm wondering if part of it is psychological. From my experience on these boards, many many people tend to have lower inhibition if they think they've messed up. Could it be the preconceived notion that processed = bad gave some of them a "might as well overeat" mentality and knowing food is minimally processed gave them the feeling that they're being "good" so they had higher inhibition? Like a healthy change tends to prime another?

    Speed of eating kind of supports that. The morality attached to food makes people perceive those who eat healthily as attractive people who eat slowly and attractively (cue funny salads with attractive women) and people who eat unhealthily are gluttons who stuff their gullet (cue obese sloppy eaters).

    I think I'm a non-responder, as they call them, because I don't notice any change in my intake based on processing if foods are matched for volume and nutrients. Instant ramen with canned tuna satiates me just as much as grilled fish and wheat berries, if not more.