Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Gut Microbiome impact on Health and Fitness
Options
Replies
-
WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
One thing I try to keep in my mind is research is not the final answer because our understanding of gut microbiome impact on health and fitness will continue to evolve so an open mind is required for my own health and fitness.
Since no one has the final answer on the subject I will work to read and understand each research paper I can find on the subject regardless of the authors stated or unstated objectives.
As the author of this paper about reading research papers points out the more we read on any subject the better our BS detector works.
Isn't that like calibrating an instrument according to a faulty standard?
While I feel like this topic is a promising area of research, what you describe as "keeping an open mind" seems more akin to gullibility. While we may not need concrete evidence for every health choice we make, I wouldn't want to make changes based on every hypothesis that comes along.
In my case to I just shifted my calorie sources when shopping at Walmart and Krogers to enhance my health so there is no need to dive in the deep end of the pool is one is going swimming for the first time.
I just wanted to know how eating low carb in my case for the past 5 years has fixed or improved 40 years of serious health issues. Understanding cravings can come from one's own gut microbiome was exciting news in my seeking the WHY. That covers why Willpower is not a factor in weight loss often.
As has been pointed out to you time and again, you do not know, and cannot possibly know, if the health improvements you realize were from the change to low carb or the weight loss itself. Now you want to throw gut biome into the mix as a possible source?
When you hear hoofbeats, why look for unicorns or zebras rather than horses?
We need Gale to start loading up on the oils to gain 40 pounds but remain low carb, n=1 demands it.4 -
Motorsheen wrote: »The brain does not work like this. We continually reference all data from a state of confirmational bias. Unless one follows a strict process of objective rationalization what you perceive as a "BS detector" is much closer to an "ego protector". Hence why most people shut down, break off conversations, and respond emotionally when confronted with conflicting data. Only a very small percentage of the population has the courage to question "what is known".
The fallacy in this is that a final answer could exist.
QFT.
I've seen this in practice on many occasions. For example, I know someone who is currently studying an MSc in Environment Science, and is a climate change skeptic. He constantly questions any evidence of climate change that is presented to him - but will implicitly trust any source that says that climate change is a lie. He once offered in evidence a website that claimed that climate change was an alien conspiracy. No lie.
What is the ideal gut microbiome?
I'm hoping that it's Taco based.
Beer....the council was looking for beer, but we'll accept tacos.2 -
Because it deserves another post...10 -
I eat a little natto everyday, as well as plain yogurt. I also heard artificial sweeteners and diet pop kill your beneficial bacteria. I have switched to unsweetened ice tea and stevia. It couldn’t hurt. Why be so rude?24
-
Motorsheen wrote: »The brain does not work like this. We continually reference all data from a state of confirmational bias. Unless one follows a strict process of objective rationalization what you perceive as a "BS detector" is much closer to an "ego protector". Hence why most people shut down, break off conversations, and respond emotionally when confronted with conflicting data. Only a very small percentage of the population has the courage to question "what is known".
The fallacy in this is that a final answer could exist.
QFT.
I've seen this in practice on many occasions. For example, I know someone who is currently studying an MSc in Environment Science, and is a climate change skeptic. He constantly questions any evidence of climate change that is presented to him - but will implicitly trust any source that says that climate change is a lie. He once offered in evidence a website that claimed that climate change was an alien conspiracy. No lie.
What is the ideal gut microbiome?
I'm hoping that it's Taco based.
Beer....the council was looking for beer, but we'll accept tacos.
8 -
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2019/06/19/gut-microbiome-bacteria-food-diet-health/#.XQq4zFNlAwA
Just ran across this article covering a study on how what we eat affects our gut microbiome (the actual study is linked in the article). Conclusion - what we eat definately affects our microbiome, but since it varies from person to person, and seems to be related to the particular food and not necessarily the specific nutrients, a great deal more study is required to make sense of the complex interactions. We're just not at the stage (based on multiple studies, not this one in isolation) where we can draw conclusions about how the makeup of our microbiome affects our health.10 -
https://futurity.org/fibromyalgia-gut-bacteria-microbiome-2085822-2/
FINDINGS LINK GUT BACTERIA AND FIBROMYALGIA
"As reported in the journal Pain, approximately 20 different species of bacteria were found in either greater or lesser quantities in the microbiomes of participants suffering from the disease than in the healthy control group....."
“We found that fibromyalgia and the symptoms of fibromyalgia—pain, fatigue, and cognitive difficulties—contribute more than any of the other factors to the variations we see in the microbiomes of those with the disease,” Minerbi adds.
“We also saw that the severity of a patient’s symptoms was directly correlated with an increased presence or a more pronounced absence of certain bacteria—something which has never been reported before.”
"The researchers’ next steps will be to see whether they get similar results in another cohort, perhaps in a different part of the world, and to do studies in animals to discover whether changes in bacteria play a role in the development of the disease....."13 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »
https://futurity.org/fibromyalgia-gut-bacteria-microbiome-2085822-2/
FINDINGS LINK GUT BACTERIA AND FIBROMYALGIA
"As reported in the journal Pain, approximately 20 different species of bacteria were found in either greater or lesser quantities in the microbiomes of participants suffering from the disease than in the healthy control group....."
“We found that fibromyalgia and the symptoms of fibromyalgia—pain, fatigue, and cognitive difficulties—contribute more than any of the other factors to the variations we see in the microbiomes of those with the disease,” Minerbi adds.
“We also saw that the severity of a patient’s symptoms was directly correlated with an increased presence or a more pronounced absence of certain bacteria—something which has never been reported before.”
"The researchers’ next steps will be to see whether they get similar results in another cohort, perhaps in a different part of the world, and to do studies in animals to discover whether changes in bacteria play a role in the development of the disease....."
So you post a link about how to read scientific articles (which wasn't great but it was atrocious either) and then you post this? Is this a, "do as I say not as I do" situation?11 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »
https://futurity.org/fibromyalgia-gut-bacteria-microbiome-2085822-2/
FINDINGS LINK GUT BACTERIA AND FIBROMYALGIA
"As reported in the journal Pain, approximately 20 different species of bacteria were found in either greater or lesser quantities in the microbiomes of participants suffering from the disease than in the healthy control group....."
“We found that fibromyalgia and the symptoms of fibromyalgia—pain, fatigue, and cognitive difficulties—contribute more than any of the other factors to the variations we see in the microbiomes of those with the disease,” Minerbi adds.
“We also saw that the severity of a patient’s symptoms was directly correlated with an increased presence or a more pronounced absence of certain bacteria—something which has never been reported before.”
"The researchers’ next steps will be to see whether they get similar results in another cohort, perhaps in a different part of the world, and to do studies in animals to discover whether changes in bacteria play a role in the development of the disease....."
So you post a link about how to read scientific articles (which wasn't great but it was atrocious either) and then you post this? Is this a, "do as I say not as I do" situation?
No10 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
https://futurity.org/fibromyalgia-gut-bacteria-microbiome-2085822-2/
FINDINGS LINK GUT BACTERIA AND FIBROMYALGIA
"As reported in the journal Pain, approximately 20 different species of bacteria were found in either greater or lesser quantities in the microbiomes of participants suffering from the disease than in the healthy control group....."
“We found that fibromyalgia and the symptoms of fibromyalgia—pain, fatigue, and cognitive difficulties—contribute more than any of the other factors to the variations we see in the microbiomes of those with the disease,” Minerbi adds.
“We also saw that the severity of a patient’s symptoms was directly correlated with an increased presence or a more pronounced absence of certain bacteria—something which has never been reported before.”
"The researchers’ next steps will be to see whether they get similar results in another cohort, perhaps in a different part of the world, and to do studies in animals to discover whether changes in bacteria play a role in the development of the disease....."
So you post a link about how to read scientific articles (which wasn't great but it was atrocious either) and then you post this? Is this a, "do as I say not as I do" situation?
No
So then what is it? Why link to things that can't actually be trusted as a good source of information? Moreover, why do that after posting about how to read academic articles?9 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Autism symptoms reduced nearly 50 percent two years after fecal transplant
https://sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/04/190409093725.htm
"In a new study, "Long-term benefit of Microbiota Transfer Therapy in Autism Symptoms and Gut Microbiota," published in Scientific Reports, Arizona State University researchers Rosa Krajmalnik-Brown, Ph.D., James Adams, Ph.D, and lead author Dae-Wook Kang, Ph.D, demonstrate long-term beneficial effects for children diagnosed with ASD through a revolutionary technique known as Microbiota Transfer Therapy (MTT), a special type of fecal transplant originally pioneered by Dr. Thomas Borody, an Australian gastroenterologist. Remarkably, improvements in gut health and autism symptoms appear to persist long after treatment.
At two years post-treatment, most of the initial improvements in gut symptoms remained. In addition, parents reported a slow steady reduction of ASD symptoms during treatment and over the next two years. A professional evaluator found a 45% reduction in core ASD symptoms (language, social interaction and behavior) at two years post-treatment compared to before treatment began.
"We are finding a very strong connection between the microbes that live in our intestines and signals that travel to the brain," said Krajmalnik-Brown, a professor at the Biodesign Swette Center for Environmental Biotechnology at the Biodesign Institute and ASU's School for Sustainable Engineering and the Built Environment. "Two years later, the children are doing even better, which is amazing."
"Many kids with autism have gastrointestinal problems, and some studies, including ours, have found that those children also have worse autism-related symptoms," said Krajmalnik-Brown. "In many cases, when you are able to treat those gastrointestinal problems, their behavior improves."
Roughly 30-50% of all people with autism have chronic gastrointestinal (GI) problems, primarily constipation and/or diarrhea that can last for many years. That chronic discomfort and pain can cause irritability, decreased attention and learning, and negatively impact behavior.
An earlier study with only vancomycin (an antibiotic) had found major temporary improvements in GI and autism symptoms, but the benefits were lost a few weeks after treatment stopped despite use of over-the-counter probiotics.
So, the question at hand was what's going on in the gut, and how does it affect both physical and behavioral symptoms of autism, and how can we develop a long-lasting treatment?
Krajmalnik-Brown, Kang and Adams have shown that by transferring healthy microbiota to individuals lacking certain gut bacteria, it is possible to "donate" a more diverse set of bacteria into the patient and improve gut health.
In Australia, Fecal Microbiota Transplantation (FMT) was initially developed by Borody. At his Centre for Digestive Diseases in Sydney, Borody has overseen more than 18,000 FMTs for various disorders since 1987. He pioneered in Australia the use of FMT for colitis and Clostridium difficile infection, and was the first to use oral FMT to treat children with ASD. Only one dose of FMT is usually enough to cure C. Difficile infections, but his patients with autism were far harder to treat. He discovered that three months of daily FMT was required to treat his autism patients, but eventually resulted in significant improvements in both GI and autism symptoms.
Based on his experience with his patients, Borody led the design of the clinical treatment used at ASU for this study....."
CHILD’S RISK OF AUTISM CAN CHANGE BASED ON HEALTH OF MOTHER’S GUT
https://newsweek.com/autism-gut-health-signs-prevention-pregnancy-women-1031661
"New research suggests that the risk of developing autism is determined by the mother’s gut during pregnancy.
Scientists at the University of Virginia School of Medicine were able to analyze pregnant women’s microbiomes to determine the child’s risk of developing autism. The study, published July 2 in The Journal of Immunology, also researched how to use this finding to halt the development of autism-like neurodevelopmental disorders in mice.
“Our study was interested in understanding how the microbiome, which is the community of microbes that live within our gut, can shift susceptibility to autism-spectrum disorder,” John Lukens, assistant professor at the University of Virginia and lead author on the study, told Newsweek. To do this, the team studied, in part, interleukin-17a.
“It’s kind of the middleman between the gut and the brain,” Lukens says. Scientists at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology found that the inflammatory molecule interleukin-17a, or IL-17a, can influence the development of autism-like disorders in the brain. IL-17a has also been found to influence the development of multiple sclerosis and rheumatoid arthritis.
“What it can do during pregnancy is alter how the brain is developed and wired,” Lukens explains..... "
As someone who is autistic I'm going to call you out.
There are no such thing as autism "symptoms", because autism in NOT A DISEASE, it is a neurological condition, our brains are wired a little differently to a neurotypical and no 2 people with autism are the same or have the same issues with the nt world. We are not ill and no treatment is going to cure us. We do learn to a greater or lesser degree to fit a little better in to your world, but having someone else's cr@p stuck up my bum is not going to magically re-wire my brain and to be honest I wouldn't want it to.
Apologies in advance for rolling a number if points in this thread into one answer.
For context, my partner and his three children are all on the spectrum - under the the old style diagnosis, they have Aspergers. Here in the UK ASD is considered a neurological condition - it is not a disease and its not a mental health "problem".
In the interest of full disclosure, my partner and his children all have a range of food intolerances and their day to day lives along with their coping mechanisms are eased by exlcuding these foods from their diets. Certainly the children show more ADHD type symptoms if they do not exclude these foods.
I dont know how anyone can exclude one part of the body from the other in terms of understanding how it works or its impact when it works differently than expected under the 'norms' whether that be the brain, the digestion or anything else for that matter etc
I would question causal assumptions when all we can do is correlate data points - but I wouldnt exclude them entirely either. So I dont think we can ever say that gut microbiom issues cause ASD but then we can't say that ASD causes microbiom issues either. I have food intolerances and I dont have ASD.
What we can (probably ?) say is that when one part of the body is outside the range of what is considered 'usual', there may be other issues within the body. Another example could be that peri-meonpausal women are likely to experience increased levels of inflammation as their hormones wobble all over the show which can (not always) trigger auto-immune responses.
And then we hit chicken and egg - which one came first ? And from who/where/when ? Hello rabbit hole!
I appreciate this is the debate section but am surprised at the lack of intellectual curiosty - there seems to be a lot of focus on trashing individuals and/or articles bought to the site and sometime a seeming lack of awareness of ourselves being triggered in some way and bringing it here instead. This isnt specific to this subject on this part of the board, just a general observation across the wider board.
Microbiom is part of the body and so it has an impact - will we ever understand it enough to be able to neatly apply some sort of rule like our old friend "1200 calories a day or welcome nutritional deficiency" ?
Of course not - because we are individuals at a physically as well as emotionally.
Should we poo-poo (sorry, couldnt help myself) articles because they arent 'scientific enough' when there is plenty of bobbins shared on this site by those linking some webiste a self appointed nutrtionist / influencer has offloaded on. But thats ok, because we like them ?!
We can all find something on the Internet to back up / slag off someones 'here's something to read / look at' post. I fear we are missing the point once thats the priority.
As an example, I did a quick Google on FMT in the UK and came up with this:
https://wwwf.imperial.ac.uk/blog/imperial-medicine/2018/11/07/going-with-our-guts-to-find-new-treatments-faecal-microbiota-transplantation-at-imperial/
Not an academic reference in sight - and I would guess thats because the perceived audience is not academic. Someone at this highly rated hospital has tried to make this article accessible.
So how can we tell the difference between bobbins and accessible science stuff or even views shared on MFP ?
I would suggest do your own research, use your own brain and dont let anyone here tell you what to think, say or do.
Ask for the views if you need to, listen to it - but you decide whats next.
Wishing everyone well !
7 -
@OooohToast you make good points. I think the gut microbiome articles where they be a news article or detailed research reports are really mainly of interest to those with personal or family health concerns looking for any medical news that may be helpful now or down the road.
At the age of 68 most of my interest is learning what I can to help family members prevent some life long health concerns that I have had to deal with personally. That research over time leads to more health info and research so the scope of reading become deeper and more broad over time.
The gut microbiome research recently jumped out at me when I started to try and understand how helpful Low Carb High Fat has been for my health since 2014. I knew there had to more than just ketones involved.
Then I read our calorie sources can greatly impact our gut microbiome. That was when I realized why my 40 years of serious joint pain that started to decrease in after the first two weeks of cutting out added sweeteners and any form of any grain back in Oct 2014 may have been related. I knew it was not due to any weight loss because it was six weeks before I lost the first pound of weight.
That a change in calorie sources can alter the makeup of one's gut microbiome starting in just 24 hours started me thinking maybe my amazing health improvements was due to my change in calorie sources. I still eat a lot but just work to keep my daily carbs at or just under 50 grams a day because I like my fiber sources. I know some try to cut out all fiber but that just never made medical sense in my case.
Below is an article with over 100 posted references that are hyper linked in the article. The author is one that I have read his work over the past 5 years. He deals with the broad implications the gut microbiome may have on many health issues but that varies from person to person naturally.
How the Gut Microbiome Influences Everything about Your Health
https://chriskresser.com/how-the-gut-microbiome-influences-everything-about-your-health/
Best of continued success in your readings. The gut microbiome is something the masses are not interested in today but I find it very interesting after over 40 years of reading medical research info starting with Ankylosing Spondylitis causes back in 1976.
18 -
Still trying to figure out what the topic of debate is, since the OP had presented no arguments, just posted random web links.5
-
johnslater461 wrote: »Still trying to figure out what the topic of debate is, since the OP had presented no arguments, just posted random web links.
Simple. That diseases like Obesity and most all others may have a link to the all important gut microbiome.
Most seem to be in agreement or can not find science to argue that the gut microbiome is not a key factor in disease causes.16 -
We have had placed before us a number of links which provide information detailing the beneficial nature of our microbiome. The last one by Dr. Chris Kresser, educated in both eastern and western medicine, lays out everything neatly, how the body can be susceptible to issues within our microbiome.
I put it to you John, particularly, the debate is framed in the links. These links provide information on the ways to improve one's biome and why in various instances it could be helpful. As a younger person able to eat and drink what ever you choose seemingly without health issues have no wish to increase your knowledge - true this is news relating our microbiome will be new to many a Western Medical adviser don't we owe it to ourselves to look after ourselves to the best we can so as not to become an impediment to our families or societies?
Kindly do us a favour and set out your objections to the concept of the microbiome being beneficial. Enlighten us as to why any talk of a healthy microbiome is totally floored.
18 -
We have had placed before us a number of links which provide information detailing the beneficial nature of our microbiome. The last one by Dr. Chris Kresser, educated in both eastern and western medicine, lays out everything neatly, how the body can be susceptible to issues within our microbiome.
I put it to you John, particularly, the debate is framed in the links. These links provide information on the ways to improve one's biome and why in various instances it could be helpful. As a younger person able to eat and drink what ever you choose seemingly without health issues have no wish to increase your knowledge - true this is news relating our microbiome will be new to many a Western Medical adviser don't we owe it to ourselves to look after ourselves to the best we can so as not to become an impediment to our families or societies?
Kindly do us a favour and set out your objections to the concept of the microbiome being beneficial. Enlighten us as to why any talk of a healthy microbiome is totally floored.
Third time is the charm
Because it deserves another post...
8 -
What was the date of this graphic. Who id this Bacult.10
-
magnusthenerd wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
One thing I try to keep in my mind is research is not the final answer because our understanding of gut microbiome impact on health and fitness will continue to evolve so an open mind is required for my own health and fitness.
Since no one has the final answer on the subject I will work to read and understand each research paper I can find on the subject regardless of the authors stated or unstated objectives.
As the author of this paper about reading research papers points out the more we read on any subject the better our BS detector works.
Isn't that like calibrating an instrument according to a faulty standard?
While I feel like this topic is a promising area of research, what you describe as "keeping an open mind" seems more akin to gullibility. While we may not need concrete evidence for every health choice we make, I wouldn't want to make changes based on every hypothesis that comes along.
In my case to I just shifted my calorie sources when shopping at Walmart and Krogers to enhance my health so there is no need to dive in the deep end of the pool is one is going swimming for the first time.
I just wanted to know how eating low carb in my case for the past 5 years has fixed or improved 40 years of serious health issues. Understanding cravings can come from one's own gut microbiome was exciting news in my seeking the WHY. That covers why Willpower is not a factor in weight loss often.
As has been pointed out to you time and again, you do not know, and cannot possibly know, if the health improvements you realize were from the change to low carb or the weight loss itself. Now you want to throw gut biome into the mix as a possible source?
When you hear hoofbeats, why look for unicorns or zebras rather than horses?
We need Gale to start loading up on the oils to gain 40 pounds but remain low carb, n=1 demands it.
As you well know I have been doing exactly that for nearly 5 years in my n=1 trail to see if it is calories or type of calories that impact my weigh the most and so far I have learned I can eat to stay stuffed as long as I keep carbs under 50 grams daily. Bumping up the carbs is the only easy and fast way to bump up my weight.
I found that to be puzzling until I learned about the gut microbiome and how it can demand binging to get more carbs in some cases. Science is a wonderful thing to get past dieting myths that are false.
17 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
One thing I try to keep in my mind is research is not the final answer because our understanding of gut microbiome impact on health and fitness will continue to evolve so an open mind is required for my own health and fitness.
Since no one has the final answer on the subject I will work to read and understand each research paper I can find on the subject regardless of the authors stated or unstated objectives.
As the author of this paper about reading research papers points out the more we read on any subject the better our BS detector works.
Isn't that like calibrating an instrument according to a faulty standard?
While I feel like this topic is a promising area of research, what you describe as "keeping an open mind" seems more akin to gullibility. While we may not need concrete evidence for every health choice we make, I wouldn't want to make changes based on every hypothesis that comes along.
In my case to I just shifted my calorie sources when shopping at Walmart and Krogers to enhance my health so there is no need to dive in the deep end of the pool is one is going swimming for the first time.
I just wanted to know how eating low carb in my case for the past 5 years has fixed or improved 40 years of serious health issues. Understanding cravings can come from one's own gut microbiome was exciting news in my seeking the WHY. That covers why Willpower is not a factor in weight loss often.
As has been pointed out to you time and again, you do not know, and cannot possibly know, if the health improvements you realize were from the change to low carb or the weight loss itself. Now you want to throw gut biome into the mix as a possible source?
When you hear hoofbeats, why look for unicorns or zebras rather than horses?
We need Gale to start loading up on the oils to gain 40 pounds but remain low carb, n=1 demands it.
As you well know I have been doing exactly that for nearly 5 years in my n=1 trail to see if it is calories or type of calories that impact my weigh the most and so far I have learned I can eat to stay stuffed as long as I keep carbs under 50 grams daily. Bumping up the carbs is the only easy and fast way to bump up my weight.
I found that to be puzzling until I learned about the gut microbiome and how it can demand binging to get more carbs in some cases. Science is a wonderful thing to get past dieting myths that are false.
You have no way of determining the causal effects.
But I suspect you know that already10 -
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.5K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 391 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 926 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions