Somebody help me wrap my head around this.
Replies
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The fact that you feel he should be losing faster as opposed to slower doesn't really matter too much especially given that he's moving on the inches.
I really don't know why people think that it is impossible to be building muscle for an untrained individual who is in not at an extremely severe deficit while applying sufficient stimulus. In fact the interplay of the three conditions (level of training, size of deficit, and degree of stimulus) is what is going to determine what will happen.
So you have some of the deficit explained by actual weight loss based on trend. You also obviously have visible changes in terms of fat loss that exceed the apparent scale weight changes. And a 7 weeks timeframe which is not nothing but if also not several months or several years either....
Just remember that what matters is what happens *most* of the time!
The guy is obviously making progress.
I don't want to generalize, but I often see on these boards that frustration is often an indication that we may be pushing a little bit too hard and feeling that we deserve better results for being so good.
But weight management is something that will extend for many years to come. Well past the point where we will wake every morning ready to be really good!
So reducing the pressure and removing time tables is a good thing!
All I can suggest is to celebrate the accomplishments which are significant, and to bring about conditions such that they can be enjoyed and continued indefinitely till he gets to the final results he wants to achieve and has established a mindset that will be conducive to maintaining those results!
Thank you for your perspective. We talked quite a bit today, I suggested he keep eating what he's eating and if it takes him a year to lose 5-10lbs, well so be it - as long as he's still making progress. I know, it's a lifestyle, it's not a temporary thing.
He said he'd be so happy to have this kind of progress and recomp - if he'd lost a few more pounds first. If he had made it to a healthy weight for his height, he'd be happy to stop losing and recomp. It's just so close.
As far as his lifting, he is also frustrated with his progress there too and he's put it up to eating at a deficit. He's lifted weights off and on all his life, he isn't new to training per se - but he's taken some time off or lighter here and there. He's getting serious about it and feels he should be able to progress more in his lifts for his age, size, etc. He also feels the extra weight holds him back too, he still can't get one chin up or pull up, and I'm sure if he lost weight it would be easier.
I think we do need to celebrate his victories. He's down to a 34 in pants, he started with 38's being tight. He's wearing a medium belt (barely) that he has had since Christmas and been unable to wear. He bought a pack of large undershirts only to get home and realize he really needs mediums.6 -
FWIW, I've averaged 2,200 calories the last 4 months and haven't lost any weight. I'm also a 5'10" guy and weigh 230. Over the first 8 months, I averaged 1,700 calories and lost 65lbs. My TDEE is around 2,200, so I've got to get down in the 1,800 range to lose any weight and it's especially hard after losing quite a bit already. But, the main difference compared to your husband is I'm not very active and he is, so I would expect him to still be losing some weight even at 2,100 cals.
But, it sounds like he's doing well the way it is as far as losing inches. I've decided that it's fine with me if it takes me another year to lose the rest of the weight. I think he has the right attitude not to be in a hurry.6 -
The opposite happened to me, My TDEE is in the range of 250-400 higher than expected from all the calculations, All I figure is that I pace around/fidget more than a normal person my height/weight/age is calculated for. Maybe the opposite is true for your husband, Even with the extra exercise maybe the daily movement he does is less than expected?4
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ExistingFish wrote: »
You know I could find 10 other threads that say it's all CO>CI, these boards are kind of contradictory, aren't they.
I agree to a point, but the logic part of my brain says the energy comes from somewhere, if you aren't getting it from your food, the body has to pull that energy from somewhere. Not necessarily that if you cut out 3,500 calories you lose a pound, but over time, if you eat less than you burn, you should be losing weight. It's science. It's logic.
CICO works to a certain point. 5'10" 195 is pretty low for an adult man. It could be that he is already at an optimal weight for his constitution. The fact that he has lost inches speaks volumes.
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TheNewKristin wrote: »I know you said you're using a scale- are you sure he's measuring accurately? And weighing everything?
Yes ... and what is he eating when he is out of sight?5 -
Not sure this is 100% correct. I ran it through the UK (NHS) BMI calculator and the upper weight for a guy with those measurements is roughly 170lbs.CICO works to a certain point. 5'10" 195 is pretty low for an adult man. It could be that he is already at an optimal weight for his constitution. The fact that he has lost inches speaks volumes.
FWIW - I'm half an inch shorter but weigh 168lbs, have a fair bit of muscle but STILL have a bit of belly fat.
My maintenance is approx 1950-2000 a day (I weigh and log everything and have for over 2 years). I'm doing an infinitely slow recomp myself which means I've set my cals to 1700 (and now more recently 1600) per day but I eat 100% of what must be vastly over estimated exercise calories. I've lost 5lbs since beginning of May. (I'll be going back up to 1700 once my holidays are over).
If I'm honest, it sounds like he's doing an almost perfect (but slow) recomp. Maybe give it another month - if he's still recording the same changes then just be more patient. He could end up with body/fitness levels better than he'd hoped for.
Good luck.
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With all due respect...I've read every reply in this thread and firmly believe what your husband needs more than anything else is perspective.ExistingFish wrote: »Thank you for your perspective. We talked quite a bit today, I suggested he keep eating what he's eating and if it takes him a year to lose 5-10lbs, well so be it - as long as he's still making progress. I know, it's a lifestyle, it's not a temporary thing.
He said he'd be so happy to have this kind of progress and recomp - if he'd lost a few more pounds first. If he had made it to a healthy weight for his height, he'd be happy to stop losing and recomp. It's just so close.
As far as his lifting, he is also frustrated with his progress there too and he's put it up to eating at a deficit. He's lifted weights off and on all his life, he isn't new to training per se - but he's taken some time off or lighter here and there. He's getting serious about it and feels he should be able to progress more in his lifts for his age, size, etc. He also feels the extra weight holds him back too, he still can't get one chin up or pull up, and I'm sure if he lost weight it would be easier.
I think we do need to celebrate his victories. He's down to a 34 in pants, he started with 38's being tight. He's wearing a medium belt (barely) that he has had since Christmas and been unable to wear. He bought a pack of large undershirts only to get home and realize he really needs mediums.
There are 2 million threads in this forum telling people to take it slow, let the process work, learn that new lifestyle of eating properly and getting fit, and it sounds to me as if that's exactly what he is doing.
4" off his waist....Four inches, that's awesome! Not being able to do pull up? Maybe he just isn't there yet. It took a good friend of mine over a year dropping from ~255 to ~180 before he could do any. Have him just do aussie pullups for a while to build the proper muscle groups.
Sounds to me as if he's doing just fine and is just a little frustrated. Start hanging pics of him at his heaviest around the house. He will see it before long.13 -
He is either eating more then you think (at his parents house 2x per week, you mentioned that is a danger zone for him), moving less then you think, or has a medical condition. If you want to help him don’t over complicate it.12
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195 is overweight for a 5’10” male....ExistingFish wrote: »
You know I could find 10 other threads that say it's all CO>CI, these boards are kind of contradictory, aren't they.
I agree to a point, but the logic part of my brain says the energy comes from somewhere, if you aren't getting it from your food, the body has to pull that energy from somewhere. Not necessarily that if you cut out 3,500 calories you lose a pound, but over time, if you eat less than you burn, you should be losing weight. It's science. It's logic.
CICO works to a certain point. 5'10" 195 is pretty low for an adult man. It could be that he is already at an optimal weight for his constitution. The fact that he has lost inches speaks volumes.
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195 is overweight for a 5’10” male....ExistingFish wrote: »
You know I could find 10 other threads that say it's all CO>CI, these boards are kind of contradictory, aren't they.
I agree to a point, but the logic part of my brain says the energy comes from somewhere, if you aren't getting it from your food, the body has to pull that energy from somewhere. Not necessarily that if you cut out 3,500 calories you lose a pound, but over time, if you eat less than you burn, you should be losing weight. It's science. It's logic.
CICO works to a certain point. 5'10" 195 is pretty low for an adult man. It could be that he is already at an optimal weight for his constitution. The fact that he has lost inches speaks volumes.
I agree. I'm 5'9" and consider myself over at 180lbs. If I were built like the Rock I might think differently lol, just an average guy with average musculature though.5 -
Is your husband as concerned about all this as you are? Why isn’t he starting his own thread to get input and advice?19
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Check into that antihistamine (some have been known to cause a bit of problems with weight), then get his free thyroid hormones, free testosterone, and cortisol levels checked to rule anything like that out. Consider age and genetics as small factors to why his calorie needs are low for his weight. With as much time as you are together, I doubt he's fooling you esp. since he seems so determined. He may just be scale number driven in his mind, and it's harder for him to see the changes to his body that you see and that the tape measure proves. Sometimes it takes a long while for us to forget what we looked like before we made the changes. There's a delay in our brains. I don't think you said what his bf% is, but it is entirely possibly he's close to his goal, and is just really frustrated with how slow it is.4
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WinoGelato wrote: »Is your husband as concerned about all this as you are? Why isn’t he starting his own thread to get input and advice?
He uses MFP but has never been active in the forums.0 -
At this point... what are we trying to help/fix/clarify that hasn't already been helped/fixed/clarified and rejected?
Summary of advice given (as near as I can keep track)...- Guy has seen meaningful changes in measurements, if not on the scale. Progress comes in many forms.
- Guy is already fairly lean... continued progress will be slow and will require tighter tracking/consistency.
- Guy is eating more than OP thinks.
- Guy's CI and CO are both estimates, as are OPs. Everything is exactly as it should be even if the assumed numbers don't line up "just right"
- Comparing 2 people's results is rarely a good idea.
11 -
At this point... what are we trying to help/fix/clarify that hasn't already been helped/fixed/clarified and rejected?
Summary of advice given (as near as I can keep track)...- Guy has seen meaningful changes in measurements, if not on the scale. Progress comes in many forms.
- Guy is already fairly lean... continued progress will be slow and will require tighter tracking/consistency.
- Guy is eating more than OP thinks.
- Guy's CI and CO are both estimates, as are OPs. Everything is exactly as it should be even if the assumed numbers don't line up "just right"
- Comparing 2 people's results is rarely a good idea.
Yes, he has had meaningful changes in measurements. As of this AM, trend app still in the green.
No, still overweight. Estimated body fat around 24-25% (based on visual estimate and calculation based measurement). Still, being much closer to goal weight, the margins are just tighter and the progress is just slower.
If he is eating more, it's measurement error, not underhandedness. He does assume prepackaged weights like one tortilla is 140 calories - he doesn't actually weigh the tortilla. Until this point, I didn't realize we were at the point where this kind of thing makes a difference, but we might just be. For the record, I've never had to be that precise, so I didn't even think of that.
I think the last one is hard. It's hard not to compare our own results. I lost weight super fast, I wasn't even trying. I guess I tend to lose weight easier than he does.
10 -
With all due respect...I've read every reply in this thread and firmly believe what your husband needs more than anything else is perspective.ExistingFish wrote: »Thank you for your perspective. We talked quite a bit today, I suggested he keep eating what he's eating and if it takes him a year to lose 5-10lbs, well so be it - as long as he's still making progress. I know, it's a lifestyle, it's not a temporary thing.
He said he'd be so happy to have this kind of progress and recomp - if he'd lost a few more pounds first. If he had made it to a healthy weight for his height, he'd be happy to stop losing and recomp. It's just so close.
As far as his lifting, he is also frustrated with his progress there too and he's put it up to eating at a deficit. He's lifted weights off and on all his life, he isn't new to training per se - but he's taken some time off or lighter here and there. He's getting serious about it and feels he should be able to progress more in his lifts for his age, size, etc. He also feels the extra weight holds him back too, he still can't get one chin up or pull up, and I'm sure if he lost weight it would be easier.
I think we do need to celebrate his victories. He's down to a 34 in pants, he started with 38's being tight. He's wearing a medium belt (barely) that he has had since Christmas and been unable to wear. He bought a pack of large undershirts only to get home and realize he really needs mediums.
There are 2 million threads in this forum telling people to take it slow, let the process work, learn that new lifestyle of eating properly and getting fit, and it sounds to me as if that's exactly what he is doing.
4" off his waist....Four inches, that's awesome! Not being able to do pull up? Maybe he just isn't there yet. It took a good friend of mine over a year dropping from ~255 to ~180 before he could do any. Have him just do aussie pullups for a while to build the proper muscle groups.
Sounds to me as if he's doing just fine and is just a little frustrated. Start hanging pics of him at his heaviest around the house. He will see it before long.
This is also a strong possibility. We all don't progress at the same rate, but progress is progress...3 -
ExistingFish wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Is your husband as concerned about all this as you are? Why isn’t he starting his own thread to get input and advice?
He uses MFP but has never been active in the forums.
But is he even concerned about his progress or is this just something that is bugging you for whatever reason? Are you reading him all these responses?9 -
I think he's gaining muscle and losing fat. Muscle weighs more so the body weight scale isn't moving as much. Just keep it up. You both are doing well. And I love how both of you are on this journey together and support each other. Partner goals
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WinoGelato wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Is your husband as concerned about all this as you are? Why isn’t he starting his own thread to get input and advice?
He uses MFP but has never been active in the forums.
But is he even concerned about his progress or is this just something that is bugging you for whatever reason? Are you reading him all these responses?
Yes, he is concerned. He brought it up (constantly) which is why I was asking.
I have always just assured him it will work with time, but I was starting to feel like a broken record just saying "don't worry, give it more time" over and over.
I have summarized the information, I don't read him the verbatim responses.1 -
I just wanted to say that I love how you are both doing this as a couple in full partnership with each other. I find it very inspirational. It is a better health and fitness journey together!9
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ExistingFish wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Is your husband as concerned about all this as you are? Why isn’t he starting his own thread to get input and advice?
He uses MFP but has never been active in the forums.
But is he even concerned about his progress or is this just something that is bugging you for whatever reason? Are you reading him all these responses?
Yes, he is concerned. He brought it up (constantly) which is why I was asking.
I have always just assured him it will work with time, but I was starting to feel like a broken record just saying "don't worry, give it more time" over and over.
I have summarized the information, I don't read him the verbatim responses.
You're supporting your husband. That's an excellent thing. It's hard for any of us I think to work and work at it, expecting results consistent with maybe someone else's results. Sometimes it's a case of tweaking caloric intake and sometimes it's just a simple matter of adjusting expectations.
Impatience aside, it sounds from the measurements angle that he's making solid progress. It's easy to point out someone else's progress, but it's hard to see it in ourselves at times.6 -
DanSanthomes wrote: »
Not sure this is 100% correct. I ran it through the UK (NHS) BMI calculator and the upper weight for a guy with those measurements is roughly 170lbs.CICO works to a certain point. 5'10" 195 is pretty low for an adult man. It could be that he is already at an optimal weight for his constitution. The fact that he has lost inches speaks volumes.
FWIW - I'm half an inch shorter but weigh 168lbs, have a fair bit of muscle but STILL have a bit of belly fat.
My maintenance is approx 1950-2000 a day (I weigh and log everything and have for over 2 years). I'm doing an infinitely slow recomp myself which means I've set my cals to 1700 (and now more recently 1600) per day but I eat 100% of what must be vastly over estimated exercise calories. I've lost 5lbs since beginning of May. (I'll be going back up to 1700 once my holidays are over).
If I'm honest, it sounds like he's doing an almost perfect (but slow) recomp. Maybe give it another month - if he's still recording the same changes then just be more patient. He could end up with body/fitness levels better than he'd hoped for.
Good luck.
OK. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned the weight part. My BF is 5'11" (179cm) 198 and wears a S/M. I never knew the weight/size stats for any of my other BFs, so I used him as my measuring stick. Now that I think about it, his BFP is usually around 2% so maybe that's why he looks so small.
With that said, I stand by the statement that he may have reached the optimal weight for his constitution. I think once you reach a certain weight range, BFP is more important than BMI.19 -
DanSanthomes wrote: »
Not sure this is 100% correct. I ran it through the UK (NHS) BMI calculator and the upper weight for a guy with those measurements is roughly 170lbs.CICO works to a certain point. 5'10" 195 is pretty low for an adult man. It could be that he is already at an optimal weight for his constitution. The fact that he has lost inches speaks volumes.
FWIW - I'm half an inch shorter but weigh 168lbs, have a fair bit of muscle but STILL have a bit of belly fat.
My maintenance is approx 1950-2000 a day (I weigh and log everything and have for over 2 years). I'm doing an infinitely slow recomp myself which means I've set my cals to 1700 (and now more recently 1600) per day but I eat 100% of what must be vastly over estimated exercise calories. I've lost 5lbs since beginning of May. (I'll be going back up to 1700 once my holidays are over).
If I'm honest, it sounds like he's doing an almost perfect (but slow) recomp. Maybe give it another month - if he's still recording the same changes then just be more patient. He could end up with body/fitness levels better than he'd hoped for.
Good luck.
OK. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned the weight part. My BF is 5'11" (179cm) 198 and wears a S/M. I never knew the weight/size stats for any of my other BFs, so I used him as my measuring stick. Now that I think about it, his BFP is usually around 2% so maybe that's why he looks so small.
With that said, I stand by the statement that he may have reached the optimal weight for his constitution. I think once you reach a certain weight range, BFP is more important than BMI.
For starters, there is no way he is only 2% BF%, and if he was he would look huge (muscle wise) and be ripped to shreds (more than body builders) at that height, weight, and BF%... in my rofile pic, I estimate I am 11% BF% and am 5'6" 142, so he would be more ripped, and a lot bigger than me, no way he would fit in a s/m, a small is tight on me16 -
DanSanthomes wrote: »
Not sure this is 100% correct. I ran it through the UK (NHS) BMI calculator and the upper weight for a guy with those measurements is roughly 170lbs.CICO works to a certain point. 5'10" 195 is pretty low for an adult man. It could be that he is already at an optimal weight for his constitution. The fact that he has lost inches speaks volumes.
FWIW - I'm half an inch shorter but weigh 168lbs, have a fair bit of muscle but STILL have a bit of belly fat.
My maintenance is approx 1950-2000 a day (I weigh and log everything and have for over 2 years). I'm doing an infinitely slow recomp myself which means I've set my cals to 1700 (and now more recently 1600) per day but I eat 100% of what must be vastly over estimated exercise calories. I've lost 5lbs since beginning of May. (I'll be going back up to 1700 once my holidays are over).
If I'm honest, it sounds like he's doing an almost perfect (but slow) recomp. Maybe give it another month - if he's still recording the same changes then just be more patient. He could end up with body/fitness levels better than he'd hoped for.
Good luck.
OK. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned the weight part. My BF is 5'11" (179cm) 198 and wears a S/M. I never knew the weight/size stats for any of my other BFs, so I used him as my measuring stick. Now that I think about it, his BFP is usually around 2% so maybe that's why he looks so small.
With that said, I stand by the statement that he may have reached the optimal weight for his constitution. I think once you reach a certain weight range, BFP is more important than BMI.
He has not. I am glad you recognize your perspective might be skewed.4 -
Has he addressed this issue with his doctor, an endocrinologist, nutritionist, or GI specialist? Slow metabolisms can be due to thyroid issues, medication side effects, imbalances in gut bacteria, and several other problems.
It may be worth investigating.4 -
For his calorie counts is he hitting his calorie goal every day? What does his weekly average look like? Is it possible that a couple of "over" days are impacting his overall CI part of the equation? Also, like you had mentioned maybe it's time to start verifying packaged foods. Maybe a day or two being over goal, and then a small overage caused by unverified package foods could be a culprit. Effectivly making his weight loss .25 a week and not .5.
The other thing is since you mention it's been around 7 weeks of this program, I feel like there are other factors masking the weight loss. A small part is probably newby muscle gains. As you say he is making visible progress. Inches lost, looking better, etc. Another small part is probably water retention from the muscle recovery.
I would say that he should dial in on his package foods. That's a good place to tighten up. Otherwise, give it another month and re-evaluate. If he stays at .25 loss a week, but continues to lose inches, it would be safe to say he is gaining muscle, and to continue the current program. If his physical progress stalls out, and/or weight loss stalls out, maybe it's time to tweak his calorie goal a bit. Say shave off 150-250 calories, or add in an evening walk or something like that.
ETA: It seems to me that it's not any one thing that is causing his weight loss to be slower. With 10-20 lbs to lose and at a goal of .5 lbs a week, there are so many variables that could easily add up to slow down weight loss. A slight overage here & there, mild fatigue impacting NEAT one day, water retention from workout the next, etc etc. It can all add up.5 -
I don't have anything to add to the thoughtful posts about perspective and reasonable possibilities to explain the disparate results between your journey and your husband's. All I am chiming in to say is I also have one of those "inquiring minds wanting to know" and have learned that not all questions that start with "how come ..." can be answered satisfactorily. But I appreciate your wanting to know 2
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Crafty_camper123 wrote: »For his calorie counts is he hitting his calorie goal every day? What does his weekly average look like? Is it possible that a couple of "over" days are impacting his overall CI part of the equation? Also, like you had mentioned maybe it's time to start verifying packaged foods. Maybe a day or two being over goal, and then a small overage caused by unverified package foods could be a culprit. Effectivly making his weight loss .25 a week and not .5.
The other thing is since you mention it's been around 7 weeks of this program, I feel like there are other factors masking the weight loss. A small part is probably newby muscle gains. As you say he is making visible progress. Inches lost, looking better, etc. Another small part is probably water retention from the muscle recovery.
I would say that he should dial in on his package foods. That's a good place to tighten up. Otherwise, give it another month and re-evaluate. If he stays at .25 loss a week, but continues to lose inches, it would be safe to say he is gaining muscle, and to continue the current program. If his physical progress stalls out, and/or weight loss stalls out, maybe it's time to tweak his calorie goal a bit. Say shave off 150-250 calories, or add in an evening walk or something like that.
ETA: It seems to me that it's not any one thing that is causing his weight loss to be slower. With 10-20 lbs to lose and at a goal of .5 lbs a week, there are so many variables that could easily add up to slow down weight loss. A slight overage here & there, mild fatigue impacting NEAT one day, water retention from workout the next, etc etc. It can all add up.
Thanks. His goal is 2100, if he's burning over 3K a day (if the fitbit is right, or even if it's 10% off and it's 2700) he is at enough of a deficit it doesn't matter. I mentioned it to him and he explained it this way:
Tortillas are sold by full package weight, not by individual weight. If I eat the whole package over a week, I got the number I logged. Variances by the day don't matter, because the whole package is weighed at packing. He eats almost all the Tortillas, he prefers them to bread for sandwiches for lunches.
FWIW, I measured the tortilla I ate last night, it was 42g and should have been 49g, so it could just as easily work the other way.
I think it is just slow going, and a lot of water retention.2 -
ExistingFish wrote: »His goal is 2100, if he's burning over 3K a day (if the fitbit is right, or even if it's 10% off and it's 2700) he is at enough of a deficit it doesn't matter. I mentioned it to him and he explained it this way:
Are you saying he is burning entirely more calories then he is ingesting?
Something seems very off to me.
I think your husband needs to get on the boards, this is feeling like a game of telephone...
7 -
Actually he is not incorrect in terms of the weight of the packages over time (though they still are off by brand by quite a bit, though certain brands seem to have tighter control than others).
And that's an attitude that shows patience and an acceptance of averaging over time!
I think that the question can easily be flipped and shows the peril of comparing to others: we are all discussing how come your husband is losing "so slow" as compared to his "expected" loss. Yet no one is "concerned", or discussing, why you lose "so fast" as compared to your expected, right?
After a lot of looking around I found a PDF of the Mifflin-St. Jeor study which established the resting metabolic rate *estimates* that both MFP and Fitbit use as their basis when it comes to estimating one's daily TDEE: http://healthhappinesslongevity.com/ANewPredictiveEquationForRestingEnergyExpenditureInHealthyIndividuals.pdf
Estimates. Not measurements.
In the graph I see dots that are very close to the predictive line; but more than one or two that are a good 300 Cal away from the predictive line at any given fat free mass! Both up and down. Once you multiply that by the daily activity factor, the TDEE difference for these individuals would easily exceed the 500 Cal mark.
So yes, our individual experiences can vary even with careful logging--though it is always good to be able to establish that the logging IS careful in the first place!
With your husband it has only been a couple of months. There is water weight variation with exercise, it is summer, some inaccuracies and some minimal excess eating maybe--none of which are bad things off and by themselves!
He is making progress! If this whole things is *not* too hard for him, he should continue as is! If it is getting to be too hard, he should ease up so that he can continue to make progress, even if a bit slower.
It doesn't have to get much more complicated than this.
One thing is for sure. If it gets to be too hard and he "gives up", that's when he will regress!8
This discussion has been closed.
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