The Game Changers
Replies
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kshama2001 wrote: »Lillymoo01 wrote: »40 years an animal eater, going on 3 years 100% plant based....I can confirm what is in the documentary worked for me....all of it. Better muscle recovery, better energy, don't get sick as often, no more acid reflux, (used to be prescribed Tecta) headaches, lower cholesterol, better *kittens* etc....
A plant based diet alone will not magically cause you to lose weight, or will you feel the effects that I do. Cake can be vegan, oreos are vegan, many sugars and vegatable oils are vegan...same with breads, salt etc.... so if you don't eat properly, don't expect to benefit from it.
Most people jump on the plant based diet bandwagon eating cake and processed meat alernatives, not knowing what to eat and how much to eat thinking it will be magic.
Every food guide states to put a majority of vegetables on your plate at every meal, and limit the other groups...so just let that sink in for a minute.
I just eat what the guide states to eat lots of, cut out the other needless groups, and have no problem hitting my protein targets.
So you cut out most of the processed food you were eating, eliminated animal products and lost weight and your health improved. Maybe you would have seen very similar improvements by simply reducing processed food and losing weight. My health has improved significantly by doing two of three of those things.
No I eliminated all animal products.
Sure, if you're happy eating the rotting flesh of dead animals, fluid extracted from pregnant cows, chicken amniotic fluid, etc...and your health has improved significantly...thats your choice, good for you. I wish you well on your journey.
I prefer plants, and I know the difference in performance first hand. I know that I would not have the muscle recovery, energy, or gains that I am getting from a plant based diet.
I used to strength train/cardio 5 days a week in my 20's, and did not get the same results that I do now in my 40's 6-7 days a week.
What's your intent with this post? When you use inflammatory language like that, you turn people off and so shut down useful dialog about the benefits of plant-based.
Instead, you'll get push-back, like I have a pear rotting on my counter right now and as soon as I pick my organically raised strawberries from my garden they start to rot.
This is why so many vegans are bad vegan-vangelists. It's not because some of their arguments don't have merits, but it's because they are absolutely insufferable about it. It may help them feel superior, but it doesn't actually help their cause. I am actively trying to reduce my meat consumption by moderate amounts. But when I see posts like that one, all I want to do is eat a giant burger out of spite.26 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Lillymoo01 wrote: »40 years an animal eater, going on 3 years 100% plant based....I can confirm what is in the documentary worked for me....all of it. Better muscle recovery, better energy, don't get sick as often, no more acid reflux, (used to be prescribed Tecta) headaches, lower cholesterol, better *kittens* etc....
A plant based diet alone will not magically cause you to lose weight, or will you feel the effects that I do. Cake can be vegan, oreos are vegan, many sugars and vegatable oils are vegan...same with breads, salt etc.... so if you don't eat properly, don't expect to benefit from it.
Most people jump on the plant based diet bandwagon eating cake and processed meat alernatives, not knowing what to eat and how much to eat thinking it will be magic.
Every food guide states to put a majority of vegetables on your plate at every meal, and limit the other groups...so just let that sink in for a minute.
I just eat what the guide states to eat lots of, cut out the other needless groups, and have no problem hitting my protein targets.
So you cut out most of the processed food you were eating, eliminated animal products and lost weight and your health improved. Maybe you would have seen very similar improvements by simply reducing processed food and losing weight. My health has improved significantly by doing two of three of those things.
No I eliminated all animal products.
Sure, if you're happy eating the rotting flesh of dead animals, fluid extracted from pregnant cows, chicken amniotic fluid, etc...and your health has improved significantly...thats your choice, good for you. I wish you well on your journey.
I prefer plants, and I know the difference in performance first hand. I know that I would not have the muscle recovery, energy, or gains that I am getting from a plant based diet.
I used to strength train/cardio 5 days a week in my 20's, and did not get the same results that I do now in my 40's 6-7 days a week.
What's your intent with this post? When you use inflammatory language like that, you turn people off and so shut down useful dialog about the benefits of plant-based.
Instead, you'll get push-back, like I have a pear rotting on my counter right now and as soon as I pick my organically raised strawberries from my garden they start to rot.
This is why so many vegans are bad vegan-vangelists. It's not because some of their arguments don't have merits, but it's because they are absolutely insufferable about it. It may help them feel superior, but it doesn't actually help their cause. I am actively trying to reduce my meat consumption by moderate amounts. But when I see posts like that one, all I want to do is eat a giant burger out of spite.
I could not agree more with this as a concept. I’ve been vegetarian for a long time now as well as off and on throughout my life because I just don’t really like meat (texture mostly) and for sustainability I’m moving towards a more vegan perspective. I can’t see going 100% vegan but I’m experimenting with ingredients and techniques to replace at least some of the dairy and eggs in my diet.
But zealots who resort to hyperbole and shock tactics don’t sway me further in that direction in any way. Everyone has to find their own peace with their morals and social conscience. Bully tactics don’t work!17 -
If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?18 -
If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?
Actually, I haven't belittled anyone....but your tone sure is walking the line of that. Seems like you might be projecting here.
If my descriptions of rotting animal flesh etc...are inaccurate, are you implying that the meat is not rotting or heavily preserved? Are you implying that diary is not fluid from pregnant cows? Or that chicken eggs are not filled with an ambionic fluid?
If I have my science wrong, please educate and explain what they are...... I am all ears.1 -
If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?
And last i checked, there were significantly more cases of mass illness from e-coli ridden plants than poor meat quality.
And if anything, that language will only cause people to be spiteful and eat more beef.
Either way, whatever you call it, i will always eat my steak, seafood, eggs and dairy. Why? Because I find it more valuable to my health and fitness. Vegan based diets require fortified foods or b12 supplementation to be complete. Add in the fact that human brain development occurred because of the increased amino acid availability, i reinforces that humans are more optimal with meat based diets.18 -
If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?
Actually, I haven't belittled anyone....but your tone sure is walking the line of that. Seems like you might be projecting here.
If my descriptions of rotting animal flesh etc...are inaccurate, are you implying that the meat is not rotting or heavily preserved? Are you implying that diary is not fluid from pregnant cows? Or that chicken eggs are not filled with an ambionic fluid?
If I have my science wrong, please educate and explain what they are...... I am all ears.
Yeah, and beans contain tiny adorable bean embryos, and we're eating the cute little babies' food supply, and them, in each delicious bite. Most fruits and vegetables begin to rot as soon as they leave the plant (some do it slowly, others do it quickly). If you live an even remotely first-world life, your vegetables and fruits have also been heavily preserved (even "fresh, whole" ones, by mechanisms like storage with specialized-gas environments, irradiation, refrigeration, humidity controls, etc. - pretty much the same measures used for fresh meats).
If you want to convert people to veganism, or reduced meat/dairy/fish consumption - which also can have substantial benefits for animals and the environment - this sort of rhetoric is exactly the wrong way to go about it.
Do polar bears feel guilty when they eat adorable baby seals? Should they? If humans' "moral qualities" make the difference here, why are embryo chickens bad to eat, and embryo beans just fine? If it's just animals, or higher animals, how high? What makes the upper levels of animal taxonomy more important than the upper levels of the plant taxonomy? Is that just human bias, because we're animals, and empathize more with things closer on the evolutionary tree? (Increasingly, there are research suggestions that plants have proto-"feelings", too - seriously.)
I've been vegetarian (not vegan) for 45 years, so not a shill for Big Meat. You're talking about this in a way that won't make converts, and that, yes, goes out of its way to paint those who choose differently in a very negative light.23 -
If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?
Actually, I haven't belittled anyone....but your tone sure is walking the line of that. Seems like you might be projecting here.
If my descriptions of rotting animal flesh etc...are inaccurate, are you implying that the meat is not rotting or heavily preserved? Are you implying that diary is not fluid from pregnant cows? Or that chicken eggs are not filled with an ambionic fluid?
If I have my science wrong, please educate and explain what they are...... I am all ears.
Yeah, and beans contain tiny adorable bean embryos, and we're eating the cute little babies' food supply, and them, in each delicious bite. Most fruits and vegetables begin to rot as soon as they leave the plant (some do it slowly, others do it quickly). If you live an even remotely first-world life, your vegetables and fruits have also been heavily preserved (even "fresh, whole" ones, by mechanisms like storage with specialized-gas environments, irradiation, refrigeration, humidity controls, etc. - pretty much the same measures used for fresh meats).
If you want to convert people to veganism, or reduced meat/dairy/fish consumption - which also can have substantial benefits for animals and the environment - this sort of rhetoric is exactly the wrong way to go about it.
Do polar bears feel guilty when they eat adorable baby seals? Should they? If humans' "moral qualities" make the difference here, why are embryo chickens bad to eat, and embryo beans just fine? If it's just animals, or higher animals, how high? What makes the upper levels of animal taxonomy more important than the upper levels of the plant taxonomy? Is that just human bias, because we're animals, and empathize more with things closer on the evolutionary tree? (Increasingly, there are research suggestions that plants have proto-"feelings", too - seriously.)
I've been vegetarian (not vegan) for 45 years, so not a shill for Big Meat. You're talking about this in a way that won't make converts, and that, yes, goes out of its way to paint those who choose differently in a very negative light.
We really need an applause button!8 -
If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?
Actually, I haven't belittled anyone....but your tone sure is walking the line of that. Seems like you might be projecting here.
If my descriptions of rotting animal flesh etc...are inaccurate, are you implying that the meat is not rotting or heavily preserved? Are you implying that diary is not fluid from pregnant cows? Or that chicken eggs are not filled with an ambionic fluid?
If I have my science wrong, please educate and explain what they are...... I am all ears.
Yeah, and beans contain tiny adorable bean embryos, and we're eating the cute little babies' food supply, and them, in each delicious bite. Most fruits and vegetables begin to rot as soon as they leave the plant (some do it slowly, others do it quickly). If you live an even remotely first-world life, your vegetables and fruits have also been heavily preserved (even "fresh, whole" ones, by mechanisms like storage with specialized-gas environments, irradiation, refrigeration, humidity controls, etc. - pretty much the same measures used for fresh meats).
If you want to convert people to veganism, or reduced meat/dairy/fish consumption - which also can have substantial benefits for animals and the environment - this sort of rhetoric is exactly the wrong way to go about it.
Do polar bears feel guilty when they eat adorable baby seals? Should they? If humans' "moral qualities" make the difference here, why are embryo chickens bad to eat, and embryo beans just fine? If it's just animals, or higher animals, how high? What makes the upper levels of animal taxonomy more important than the upper levels of the plant taxonomy? Is that just human bias, because we're animals, and empathize more with things closer on the evolutionary tree? (Increasingly, there are research suggestions that plants have proto-"feelings", too - seriously.)
I've been vegetarian (not vegan) for 45 years, so not a shill for Big Meat. You're talking about this in a way that won't make converts, and that, yes, goes out of its way to paint those who choose differently in a very negative light.
Lol the beans comment is not really a great comparison.
As I stated above....not telling anyone to do anything. I really couldn't care any less what others eat. Just sharing my experience eat plants.
Eat what you like....
You all being triggered by my choice to eat plant based is something to look at though.2 -
If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?
Actually, I haven't belittled anyone....but your tone sure is walking the line of that. Seems like you might be projecting here.
If my descriptions of rotting animal flesh etc...are inaccurate, are you implying that the meat is not rotting or heavily preserved? Are you implying that diary is not fluid from pregnant cows? Or that chicken eggs are not filled with an ambionic fluid?
If I have my science wrong, please educate and explain what they are...... I am all ears.
Yeah, and beans contain tiny adorable bean embryos, and we're eating the cute little babies' food supply, and them, in each delicious bite. Most fruits and vegetables begin to rot as soon as they leave the plant (some do it slowly, others do it quickly). If you live an even remotely first-world life, your vegetables and fruits have also been heavily preserved (even "fresh, whole" ones, by mechanisms like storage with specialized-gas environments, irradiation, refrigeration, humidity controls, etc. - pretty much the same measures used for fresh meats).
If you want to convert people to veganism, or reduced meat/dairy/fish consumption - which also can have substantial benefits for animals and the environment - this sort of rhetoric is exactly the wrong way to go about it.
Do polar bears feel guilty when they eat adorable baby seals? Should they? If humans' "moral qualities" make the difference here, why are embryo chickens bad to eat, and embryo beans just fine? If it's just animals, or higher animals, how high? What makes the upper levels of animal taxonomy more important than the upper levels of the plant taxonomy? Is that just human bias, because we're animals, and empathize more with things closer on the evolutionary tree? (Increasingly, there are research suggestions that plants have proto-"feelings", too - seriously.)
I've been vegetarian (not vegan) for 45 years, so not a shill for Big Meat. You're talking about this in a way that won't make converts, and that, yes, goes out of its way to paint those who choose differently in a very negative light.
Lol the beans comment is not really a great comparison.
As I stated above....not telling anyone to do anything. I really couldn't care any less what others eat. Just sharing my experience eat plants.
Eat what you like....
You all being triggered by my choice to eat plant based is something to look at though.
No one here is triggered that I'm seeing, unless you are. We simply disagree with you (in various ways). Some of us - like me - believe you're making "team eat more plants" less effective at recruiting new players.
I'm a li'l ol' lady. I don't get triggered, at least not by stuff like this. It's a waste of energy, and too much drama in my life. I'm replying mostly in an effort - probably vain, in context - to convince readers that eating more plants is a really good thing, and that there are calm people who want to do it for rational reasons.
As I've said on other threads, I personally think all of us first-worlders are pretty much unavoidably little moving bundles of global harm (environmental damage, cruelty to humans, animal exploitation, more), and that it's nice when people take steps that are easy for them, to reduce that harm. There's no way of eliminating all the harm. Good for you, for taking steps that not only reduce harm, but benefit you personally in what you find to be profound ways, sincerely. Maybe consider adopting a rhetorical pose (word chosen carefully) that increases likelihood of encouraging others to do likewise, thus influencing increased overall harm reduction, however small?16 -
If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?
Actually, I haven't belittled anyone....but your tone sure is walking the line of that. Seems like you might be projecting here.
If my descriptions of rotting animal flesh etc...are inaccurate, are you implying that the meat is not rotting or heavily preserved? Are you implying that diary is not fluid from pregnant cows? Or that chicken eggs are not filled with an ambionic fluid?
If I have my science wrong, please educate and explain what they are...... I am all ears.
BTW: "amniotic", just FTR.
And I made a science mistake, too: Normally, chicken (duck, etc.) eggs don't contain embryos, because they're not fertilized. Beans do contain embryos. Some people do eat bird embryos, but unfertilized eggs don't contain them.
16 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Lillymoo01 wrote: »40 years an animal eater, going on 3 years 100% plant based....I can confirm what is in the documentary worked for me....all of it. Better muscle recovery, better energy, don't get sick as often, no more acid reflux, (used to be prescribed Tecta) headaches, lower cholesterol, better *kittens* etc....
A plant based diet alone will not magically cause you to lose weight, or will you feel the effects that I do. Cake can be vegan, oreos are vegan, many sugars and vegatable oils are vegan...same with breads, salt etc.... so if you don't eat properly, don't expect to benefit from it.
Most people jump on the plant based diet bandwagon eating cake and processed meat alernatives, not knowing what to eat and how much to eat thinking it will be magic.
Every food guide states to put a majority of vegetables on your plate at every meal, and limit the other groups...so just let that sink in for a minute.
I just eat what the guide states to eat lots of, cut out the other needless groups, and have no problem hitting my protein targets.
So you cut out most of the processed food you were eating, eliminated animal products and lost weight and your health improved. Maybe you would have seen very similar improvements by simply reducing processed food and losing weight. My health has improved significantly by doing two of three of those things.
No I eliminated all animal products.
Sure, if you're happy eating the rotting flesh of dead animals, fluid extracted from pregnant cows, chicken amniotic fluid, etc...and your health has improved significantly...thats your choice, good for you. I wish you well on your journey.
I prefer plants, and I know the difference in performance first hand. I know that I would not have the muscle recovery, energy, or gains that I am getting from a plant based diet.
I used to strength train/cardio 5 days a week in my 20's, and did not get the same results that I do now in my 40's 6-7 days a week.
What's your intent with this post? When you use inflammatory language like that, you turn people off and so shut down useful dialog about the benefits of plant-based.
Instead, you'll get push-back, like I have a pear rotting on my counter right now and as soon as I pick my organically raised strawberries from my garden they start to rot.
This is why so many vegans are bad vegan-vangelists. It's not because some of their arguments don't have merits, but it's because they are absolutely insufferable about it. It may help them feel superior, but it doesn't actually help their cause. I am actively trying to reduce my meat consumption by moderate amounts. But when I see posts like that one, all I want to do is eat a giant burger out of spite.
Agreed. A lot of the rhetoric seems like an effort to convince us that something we don't experience as disgusting is, in fact, disgusting. That seems like an obvious hard sell unless one has already drunk the Kool-aid. No, I don't think eggs are icky and calling them hen's periods (which is wrong anyway for lots of reasons) doesn't make them so for me. No, claiming all meat is rotting (when it's not) doesn't make me grossed out by the tasty meat I eat.
Arguments about conditions may be convincing (for me it means I source more carefully). Arguments about health perhaps (I think the arguments that NO meat is beneficial are weak, but I reduced meat and often eat vegetarian or 100% plant based for a day or longer period of time). Arguments about how one feels, specific benefits, perhaps, although I haven't found my experience to echo it.
The claim that saying "this is a poor argument that is unlikely to be convincing to those who know better" = being triggered is just so out of touch with reality that I have to assume the person has zero interest in actually convincing people to eat fewer animal products.
I think janejellyroll (an ethical vegan) gave the best explanation about why people resort to such poor arguments that I've heard. She noted that many who first become vegans still have some desire for the taste of the foods given up, so need to convince themselves these foods are undesirable, so mostly these silly arguments, especially the disgust based ones, are intended to keep themselves committed and to feel like they gave up nothing.20 -
By nature humans are omnivores. This means that our bodies are designed to have a combination of both plant and animal products. It is a fact that without fortification of some processed foods and/or supplements that a vegan would not thrive. There are a number of reasons that people choose to go down the vegan path which are perfectly valid but when these same people believe that their way of eating is superior for health then they are really just kidding themselves, simply because they can not meet all of their nutritional needs to thrive without the use of supplementation and fortification.11
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kshama2001 wrote: »Lillymoo01 wrote: »40 years an animal eater, going on 3 years 100% plant based....I can confirm what is in the documentary worked for me....all of it. Better muscle recovery, better energy, don't get sick as often, no more acid reflux, (used to be prescribed Tecta) headaches, lower cholesterol, better *kittens* etc....
A plant based diet alone will not magically cause you to lose weight, or will you feel the effects that I do. Cake can be vegan, oreos are vegan, many sugars and vegatable oils are vegan...same with breads, salt etc.... so if you don't eat properly, don't expect to benefit from it.
Most people jump on the plant based diet bandwagon eating cake and processed meat alernatives, not knowing what to eat and how much to eat thinking it will be magic.
Every food guide states to put a majority of vegetables on your plate at every meal, and limit the other groups...so just let that sink in for a minute.
I just eat what the guide states to eat lots of, cut out the other needless groups, and have no problem hitting my protein targets.
So you cut out most of the processed food you were eating, eliminated animal products and lost weight and your health improved. Maybe you would have seen very similar improvements by simply reducing processed food and losing weight. My health has improved significantly by doing two of three of those things.
No I eliminated all animal products.
Sure, if you're happy eating the rotting flesh of dead animals, fluid extracted from pregnant cows, chicken amniotic fluid, etc...and your health has improved significantly...thats your choice, good for you. I wish you well on your journey.
I prefer plants, and I know the difference in performance first hand. I know that I would not have the muscle recovery, energy, or gains that I am getting from a plant based diet.
I used to strength train/cardio 5 days a week in my 20's, and did not get the same results that I do now in my 40's 6-7 days a week.
What's your intent with this post? When you use inflammatory language like that, you turn people off and so shut down useful dialog about the benefits of plant-based.
Instead, you'll get push-back, like I have a pear rotting on my counter right now and as soon as I pick my organically raised strawberries from my garden they start to rot.
This is why so many vegans are bad vegan-vangelists. It's not because some of their arguments don't have merits, but it's because they are absolutely insufferable about it. It may help them feel superior, but it doesn't actually help their cause. I am actively trying to reduce my meat consumption by moderate amounts. But when I see posts like that one, all I want to do is eat a giant burger out of spite.
Agreed. A lot of the rhetoric seems like an effort to convince us that something we don't experience as disgusting is, in fact, disgusting. That seems like an obvious hard sell unless one has already drunk the Kool-aid. No, I don't think eggs are icky and calling them hen's periods (which is wrong anyway for lots of reasons) doesn't make them so for me. No, claiming all meat is rotting (when it's not) doesn't make me grossed out by the tasty meat I eat.
Arguments about conditions may be convincing (for me it means I source more carefully). Arguments about health perhaps (I think the arguments that NO meat is beneficial are weak, but I reduced meat and often eat vegetarian or 100% plant based for a day or longer period of time). Arguments about how one feels, specific benefits, perhaps, although I haven't found my experience to echo it.
The claim that saying "this is a poor argument that is unlikely to be convincing to those who know better" = being triggered is just so out of touch with reality that I have to assume the person has zero interest in actually convincing people to eat fewer animal products.
I think janejellyroll (an ethical vegan) gave the best explanation about why people resort to such poor arguments that I've heard. She noted that many who first become vegans still have some desire for the taste of the foods given up, so need to convince themselves these foods are undesirable, so mostly these silly arguments, especially the disgust based ones, are intended to keep themselves committed and to feel like they gave up nothing.
Right, I wasn't triggered in the least.
I was friends with a lot of vegans when I spent three years in vegetarian yoga centers, one of which had yearly programs by Jivamukti Yoga founders Sharon Gannon and David Life, who are big vegan proponents. There probably is not a type of argument I have not heard.
Arguments about animal conditions are compelling to me, and I also source more carefully because of this.
I also find environmental impact arguments persuasive, and have made changes due to this as well.
I think the "meat is murder" concept was very useful for my vegan friends, who were appalled and disgusted at the thought of eating meat, which made abstaining easy for them.
Two of them had been through Jivamukti teacher training, which has many vegan books on Sharon Gannon’s Recommended Reading List for all teachers and students of Jivamukti Yoga
One of my friends had Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy and I leafed through it. That's probably part of the reason I ended up dangerously anemic during my time there.5 -
If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?
Actually, I haven't belittled anyone....but your tone sure is walking the line of that. Seems like you might be projecting here.
If my descriptions of rotting animal flesh etc...are inaccurate, are you implying that the meat is not rotting or heavily preserved? Are you implying that diary is not fluid from pregnant cows? Or that chicken eggs are not filled with an ambionic fluid?
If I have my science wrong, please educate and explain what they are...... I am all ears.
At some point fresh raw chicken will go bad, just as produce does - I honestly don't understand your "rotting" argument. I have a lot of produce scraps rotting in my compost pile ATM.
6 -
*yawns*......
2 -
kshama2001 wrote: »If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?
Actually, I haven't belittled anyone....but your tone sure is walking the line of that. Seems like you might be projecting here.
If my descriptions of rotting animal flesh etc...are inaccurate, are you implying that the meat is not rotting or heavily preserved? Are you implying that diary is not fluid from pregnant cows? Or that chicken eggs are not filled with an ambionic fluid?
If I have my science wrong, please educate and explain what they are...... I am all ears.
At some point fresh raw chicken will go bad, just as produce does - I honestly don't understand your "rotting" argument. I have a lot of produce scraps rotting in my compost pile ATM.
Does the person who disagrees wish to inspect my compost pile?
7 -
Of all the things I have the most trouble keeping from going bad before I use it, it's the stupid tubs of fresh spinach in my refrigerator.kshama2001 wrote: »If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?
Actually, I haven't belittled anyone....but your tone sure is walking the line of that. Seems like you might be projecting here.
If my descriptions of rotting animal flesh etc...are inaccurate, are you implying that the meat is not rotting or heavily preserved? Are you implying that diary is not fluid from pregnant cows? Or that chicken eggs are not filled with an ambionic fluid?
If I have my science wrong, please educate and explain what they are...... I am all ears.
At some point fresh raw chicken will go bad, just as produce does - I honestly don't understand your "rotting" argument. I have a lot of produce scraps rotting in my compost pile ATM.
I love fresh spinach, but lord, that stuff. I just found a Pinterest page that says it's got a list of things that will help. We Shall See.5 -
PrismaticPhoenix wrote: »
Of all the things I have the most trouble keeping from going bad before I use it, it's the stupid tubs of fresh spinach in my refrigerator.kshama2001 wrote: »If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?
Actually, I haven't belittled anyone....but your tone sure is walking the line of that. Seems like you might be projecting here.
If my descriptions of rotting animal flesh etc...are inaccurate, are you implying that the meat is not rotting or heavily preserved? Are you implying that diary is not fluid from pregnant cows? Or that chicken eggs are not filled with an ambionic fluid?
If I have my science wrong, please educate and explain what they are...... I am all ears.
At some point fresh raw chicken will go bad, just as produce does - I honestly don't understand your "rotting" argument. I have a lot of produce scraps rotting in my compost pile ATM.
I love fresh spinach, but lord, that stuff. I just found a Pinterest page that says it's got a list of things that will help. We Shall See.
There's always spinach casserole! This is for Swiss chard casserole and it's crazy how much I start with vs what I'm left with: https://www.thewednesdaychef.com/the_wednesday_chef/2008/07/alice-waterss-s.html
4 quart soup pot \/
^ 6 cup container
BTW, I cook the chard way less than the recipe suggests and do things in a different order. I just wilted the chard in a tiny bit of water and mixed it into the roux when that was done. I used 19 oz of chard for the 1.5 bunches, which came to almost 4 quarts when loosely chopped and about 4 cups after gentle wilting.5 -
This time of year I use a ton of greens in soups. As kshama notes, they shrink up (kale less so, but still).3
-
I also enjoyed this documentary, and since then, I have been eating less meat. It is a very biased documentary however, of course it would be though.3
-
kshama2001 wrote: »PrismaticPhoenix wrote: »
Of all the things I have the most trouble keeping from going bad before I use it, it's the stupid tubs of fresh spinach in my refrigerator.kshama2001 wrote: »If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?
Actually, I haven't belittled anyone....but your tone sure is walking the line of that. Seems like you might be projecting here.
If my descriptions of rotting animal flesh etc...are inaccurate, are you implying that the meat is not rotting or heavily preserved? Are you implying that diary is not fluid from pregnant cows? Or that chicken eggs are not filled with an ambionic fluid?
If I have my science wrong, please educate and explain what they are...... I am all ears.
At some point fresh raw chicken will go bad, just as produce does - I honestly don't understand your "rotting" argument. I have a lot of produce scraps rotting in my compost pile ATM.
I love fresh spinach, but lord, that stuff. I just found a Pinterest page that says it's got a list of things that will help. We Shall See.
There's always spinach casserole! This is for Swiss chard casserole and it's crazy how much I start with vs what I'm left with: https://www.thewednesdaychef.com/the_wednesday_chef/2008/07/alice-waterss-s.html
4 quart soup pot \/
^ 6 cup container
BTW, I cook the chard way less than the recipe suggests and do things in a different order. I just wilted the chard in a tiny bit of water and mixed it into the roux when that was done. I used 19 oz of chard for the 1.5 bunches, which came to almost 4 quarts when loosely chopped and about 4 cups after gentle wilting.
That looks really delicious! Thanks for the suggestion. It's really tricky because I like spinach but it can be hard to tell how fast I'm going to go through it. Oof!
I'll look into that. Thanks so much!This time of year I use a ton of greens in soups. As kshama notes, they shrink up (kale less so, but still).0 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »By nature humans are omnivores. This means that our bodies are designed to have a combination of both plant and animal products. It is a fact that without fortification of some processed foods and/or supplements that a vegan would not thrive. There are a number of reasons that people choose to go down the vegan path which are perfectly valid but when these same people believe that their way of eating is superior for health then they are really just kidding themselves, simply because they can not meet all of their nutritional needs to thrive without the use of supplementation and fortification.
I agree. Just one look at out teeth and digestive tract show we are omnivores. Cows have long guts.... IE plant material only.... or mostly.... dogs have short guts.... IE mostly meat eaters.... humans.... more medium guts.3 -
PrismaticPhoenix wrote: »
Of all the things I have the most trouble keeping from going bad before I use it, it's the stupid tubs of fresh spinach in my refrigerator.kshama2001 wrote: »If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?
Actually, I haven't belittled anyone....but your tone sure is walking the line of that. Seems like you might be projecting here.
If my descriptions of rotting animal flesh etc...are inaccurate, are you implying that the meat is not rotting or heavily preserved? Are you implying that diary is not fluid from pregnant cows? Or that chicken eggs are not filled with an ambionic fluid?
If I have my science wrong, please educate and explain what they are...... I am all ears.
At some point fresh raw chicken will go bad, just as produce does - I honestly don't understand your "rotting" argument. I have a lot of produce scraps rotting in my compost pile ATM.
I love fresh spinach, but lord, that stuff. I just found a Pinterest page that says it's got a list of things that will help. We Shall See.
Take the spinach out of the container and put paper towels in the bottom, return half the spinach, add more paper towels, put the rest in and top with more towels. The towels will absorb the moisture and keep the spinach leaves fresher longer8 -
saresimsr36 wrote: »PrismaticPhoenix wrote: »
Of all the things I have the most trouble keeping from going bad before I use it, it's the stupid tubs of fresh spinach in my refrigerator.kshama2001 wrote: »If you're triggered by my blunt description of animal products, you will need to figure that out for yourself. I am not in control of that....but it triggered you for a reason.
They are an accurate description of animal products, not inflammatory....I assume that you rather they are labelled to something more appealing.
I am not trigggered by your comments one bit...rotten plants I put them in the compost and get fresh ones. And I've likely heard all the other comments before.
I am not by any means telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat....that's their life, not mine.
I didn't see anyone get triggered by your description of animal products, you simply got called out because I feel its an inaccurate and blatantly dishonest description. To be perfectly honest, I could care less what your thoughts are about meat, or whether or not you find it appetizing. Your thoughts and beliefs wouldn't give me pause at all, because you can't seem to defend them without attempting to insult others. If you feel superior by not eating meat, then you do you. Its just funny how your descriptions are no different than some of the stuff said in these propaganda documentaries put out by groups with an obvious agenda. Why do you find it so hard to defend your position without spreading lies and trying to belittle others?
Actually, I haven't belittled anyone....but your tone sure is walking the line of that. Seems like you might be projecting here.
If my descriptions of rotting animal flesh etc...are inaccurate, are you implying that the meat is not rotting or heavily preserved? Are you implying that diary is not fluid from pregnant cows? Or that chicken eggs are not filled with an ambionic fluid?
If I have my science wrong, please educate and explain what they are...... I am all ears.
At some point fresh raw chicken will go bad, just as produce does - I honestly don't understand your "rotting" argument. I have a lot of produce scraps rotting in my compost pile ATM.
I love fresh spinach, but lord, that stuff. I just found a Pinterest page that says it's got a list of things that will help. We Shall See.
Take the spinach out of the container and put paper towels in the bottom, return half the spinach, add more paper towels, put the rest in and top with more towels. The towels will absorb the moisture and keep the spinach leaves fresher longer
Ooh, I'll have to try that! Thank you!2 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »40 years an animal eater, going on 3 years 100% plant based....I can confirm what is in the documentary worked for me....all of it. Better muscle recovery, better energy, don't get sick as often, no more acid reflux, (used to be prescribed Tecta) headaches, lower cholesterol, better *kittens* etc....
A plant based diet alone will not magically cause you to lose weight, or will you feel the effects that I do. Cake can be vegan, oreos are vegan, many sugars and vegatable oils are vegan...same with breads, salt etc.... so if you don't eat properly, don't expect to benefit from it.
Most people jump on the plant based diet bandwagon eating cake and processed meat alernatives, not knowing what to eat and how much to eat thinking it will be magic.
Every food guide states to put a majority of vegetables on your plate at every meal, and limit the other groups...so just let that sink in for a minute.
I just eat what the guide states to eat lots of, cut out the other needless groups, and have no problem hitting my protein targets.
So you cut out most of the processed food you were eating, eliminated animal products and lost weight and your health improved. Maybe you would have seen very similar improvements by simply reducing processed food and losing weight. My health has improved significantly by doing two of three of those things.
My health has significantly improved and I'm in the best and healthiest shape of my life only doing one of those things, eating animal products that come almost exclusively from 'processed' foods.
It's almost as if the single most defining factor in improving health is losing weight regardless of how it's achieved. Crazy huh!9 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »40 years an animal eater, going on 3 years 100% plant based....I can confirm what is in the documentary worked for me....all of it. Better muscle recovery, better energy, don't get sick as often, no more acid reflux, (used to be prescribed Tecta) headaches, lower cholesterol, better *kittens* etc....
A plant based diet alone will not magically cause you to lose weight, or will you feel the effects that I do. Cake can be vegan, oreos are vegan, many sugars and vegatable oils are vegan...same with breads, salt etc.... so if you don't eat properly, don't expect to benefit from it.
Most people jump on the plant based diet bandwagon eating cake and processed meat alernatives, not knowing what to eat and how much to eat thinking it will be magic.
Every food guide states to put a majority of vegetables on your plate at every meal, and limit the other groups...so just let that sink in for a minute.
I just eat what the guide states to eat lots of, cut out the other needless groups, and have no problem hitting my protein targets.
So you cut out most of the processed food you were eating, eliminated animal products and lost weight and your health improved. Maybe you would have seen very similar improvements by simply reducing processed food and losing weight. My health has improved significantly by doing two of three of those things.
My health has significantly improved and I'm in the best and healthiest shape of my life only doing one of those things, eating animal products that come almost exclusively from 'processed' foods.
It's almost as if the single most defining factor in improving health is losing weight regardless of how it's achieved. Crazy huh!
Not crazy at all.......1 -
PrismaticPhoenix wrote: »
I also make omelets regularly, and they always contain some kind of green, as well as other veg.
Spinach and chard are really easy sides with just sauteeing and maybe some garlic or onion. This collards recipe is great too: https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1017435-brazilian-collard-greens
I also make salads with fresh spinach.
Spinach pie is super delicious but not low cal -- one recipe: https://www.recipegirl.com/greek-spinach-pie/0 -
I am so sad @lemurcat2 !
I totally misread your post (I blame my glasses) and thought you said "is super delicious AND low cal"
So clicked on the recipe, and was mentally adding up 20oz of spinach and 2 cups of cheese and the oil and coming up with... "what is she talking about low cal"
And then I read your post again! 3 -
Heh!1
-
Hey! So I watched the documentary, watched the rebuttal, and then the debate. So I'm about 6 hours into this ha. With proper planning and supplementation one can easily get enough protein and quality protein on a plant based diet. I have been on a largely plant based diet since the documentary and feel great. For general health and fitness I believe this is a good option. Just being intentional with food intake will yield great results. From the information I have read there is no correlation between meat and cancer. Being vegan wont cure cancer or help you see in the dark but giving your body plenty of vitamins has great benefits. Good Luck!2
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