How do you deal with the fear?
Replies
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I don't think of it as fear, but maintaining does mean keeping on being consistent.
I'm in my 7th year of maintenance, no longer log my food but have a rough idea in my head of my daily consumption.
Stepping on the scale regularly keeps me right because my clothes wouldn't tell me I'd gained, probably would have to gain 7 or 8lbs for them to not fit well. I have to say in all my years so far at goal, I've never veered up more than 5lbs which I nip in the bud right away.3 -
Doesn't it annoy you guys that no one seems to know this stuff for sure? To my mind, the obesity crisis is the second greatest crisis facing humanity, second only to climate change (although I realise that this view may be coloured by my own personal struggles). It feels like it weird that no one knows basic things like "how long does adaptive thermogenesis last".
Well yes it's hard to tell how long at persist because metabolic ward studies are extremely expensive and time consuming. I will leave you with my thoughts and what the data shows. A slower metabolic rate is not the best predictor of weight loss maintenance. Activity and dietary adherence are. I will use this one as an example of why one shouldn't get too carried away with media sensationalism. Kevin Hall's study of the biggest losers season 8 showed that even after regaining weight, metabolic rates never returned to predicted and leptin levels remained decreased. What didn't make the news was two fold. What we found was that rmr was slowed, tdee was as predicted by the NIH body weight planner algorithm. Next, that there were people who regained all the weight and some, there was a great spectrum of data. Some maintained all or some. This was not reported as well. Not as sensational. In a follow up study it was showed that the biggest difference between regainers and maintainers was not calorie intake, but exercise. Going back to the idea that rmr means little and it is lifestyle changes that matter the most. Average exercise was only 56% higher than the preshow average in retainers and was 156% in maintainers. Not sensational. They ate the same calories but maintained weight being more active? Not going to sell many newspapers.5 -
Doesn't it annoy you guys that no one seems to know this stuff for sure? To my mind, the obesity crisis is the second greatest crisis facing humanity, second only to climate change (although I realise that this view may be coloured by my own personal struggles). It feels like it weird that no one knows basic things like "how long does adaptive thermogenesis last".
No, it doesn't annoy me. Many researchers are continuing to work hard in this area, but it just happens to be one area (among many) where the last scientific detail hasn't been pinned down yet. PsychoD's post a bit above talks about the challenges of research on this topic specifically, and there are other challenges. On top of that, there's individual variation in all the results in any specific study (i.e., slightly different results across the study population). Some of those differences can trigger more research, but some is just part of the process. Human bodies are complicated and differ in subtle says.
However, absent major health conditions, human bodies don't differ from person to person in huge, huge ways. In most cases, it's a few percent this way or that way from person to person.
The larger thing I realize is that none of that uncertainty/unclarity matters in a practical sense. Enough is known for me to make good progress, and get good results. All I need to do is look for sound science to the extent it exists, and apply it to my own personal n=1 experiment, then adjust what I do based on personal results. The basics of calorie counting are quite straightforward.
I could worry that I'm hypothyroid, so "my metabolism is slow". (The actual numbers: No more than 5% hypo penalty, even if completely untreated. So, instead of the 1500 calorie TDEE MFP estimates for me, my worst-case hypo TDEE would be 1425, and I need to eat 75 fewer calories to maintain.
I could worry that because I lost weight too fast for a while, I must have severe "adaptive thermogenesis", so I get that 80-calorie-ish penalty described above. Uh-oh, now my maintenance TDEE must be 1345!
Even if all of that is true, I can still lose/maintain weight. I don't need to maintain at 1345 if I don't want to, because I can increase activity (not just exercise, daily life counts, too). Even if there's that bad a case for me, I can still adjust and accomplish my goals. That's not very many maintenance calories, but why would I assume that if that's my calorie need, I'm going to be more hungry at 1325 than someone who needs 1500 is at 1500?
Worry, worry, worry. Annoyance, stress, sense of unfairness, anxiety, resentment. It accomplishes nothing, it makes me feel bad, it doesn't make me more successful.
Why waste my energy doing it? Worry, stress, anxiety don't improve anything. I'm far better off focusing my energy on what it takes for me, personally, to be satiated and happy with life at my experientially-determined calorie need. Everything else is a waste of my time and energy.
I can only do so much to mitigate unknowns, or accidents of circumstance over which I have no significant influence nor control. Focusing on things I can't influence or control is also a waste of time and energy.
By the way: That scary 1325 calorie TDEE? My nearly 5 years of logging experience says it just ain't so. My actual TDEE before exercise is a little over 2000: Like cmriverside, that's at least 500 calories over MFP's estimate. I'm lucky. Why? Don't know.
But if I'd been worried about those numbers and uncertainties, vs. just figuring out what I personally needed to do to succeed, I would've been more likely to get discouraged and give up, and I would've been worrying about (in my lucky personal case) absolutely nothing, feeling bad/scared/annoyed en route for absolutely no reason. Pointless; makes life unhappier. Nope.
Focus on what you need to do to achieve your results. Figure out how to do it in the way that's easiest and most sustainable for you. This is a realm where you have near total control, over what you eat, and how much you move. You'll do fine.
Best wishes!
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Yeah, like Ann says (and Psychod) there are so many variables. They can't all be pinned down, so I doubt "science" is going to come up with a better answer than, "Log your food. Use a digital food scale. Prepare 90% of your own meals. Take a damn walk. Get eight hours of sleep. Drink a lot of water. Keep stress low. Step on the body weight scale and adjust accordingly. Repeat forever. "
:drinker: Ta da.
I mean, that's really the bottom line. Calories, keeping some sort of measurements and being consistent over TIME.4 -
Since the android app ate my homework, I will just address a comment about AT being disproved because a person is eating above average calories to maintain.
Eating above average calories to maintain doesn't prove or disprove whether you, as an individual, have lost some calories to AT. For all you know you could have been maintaining at + or -10% (or whatever figure) more than what you are maintaining at today.
I will also address another issue which used to really concern me six years ago; but which is no longer a concern.
The fact that there exists some AT does not mean that you're ACTUALLY going to be PHYSICALLY HUNGRY for the "lost" amount of calories.
Do you consume the same amount of food when you spend the day sedentary, puttering around the house, or when you're super active, going for a 5 hour hike around the lake? Of course not. Right? Either hunger or simple MFP math tell you to eat more to fuel that hike: because you've spent Calories in order to perform it!
In my case, I have reasons to suspect a 2.5-3.5% of my TDEE AT which very closely brackets the 80 Cal mentioned by @psychod787. This has persisted a good 5 years post rapid weight loss. BUT, somewhere during the 24 to 28 month post rapid weight loss time period (discussed above as a probable time period during which hormones normalize) there was a marked improvement in my perception of how easy it was to stay within my caloric budget.
Let me repeat that: if you survive the initial post weight loss adjustment period (the first "two" years where most of us lose the battle), having some AT doesn't mean that you're spending your whole day hungry for lost calories! It does NOT feel like you're in a permanent 80 Cal deficit. It just feels like normal maintenance because your body is NOT ACTUALLY USING these calories in the first place!
This, of course, does not address "brain hamster issues" given that appetite and desire to eat are not always exact reflections of physical hunger!
I also note that the restoration of AT to normalcy often observed with full regain + a bit, is probably counterproductive!
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Since the android app ate my homework, I will just address a comment about AT being disproved because a person is eating above average calories to maintain.
Eating above average calories to maintain doesn't prove or disprove whether you, as an individual, have lost some calories to AT. For all you know you could have been maintaining at + or -10% (or whatever figure) more than what you are maintaining at today.
I will also address another issue which used to really concern me six years ago; but which is no longer a concern.
The fact that there exists some AT does not mean that you're ACTUALLY going to be PHYSICALLY HUNGRY for the "lost" amount of calories.
Do you consume the same amount of food when you spend the day sedentary, puttering around the house, or when you're super active, going for a 5 hour hike around the lake? Of course not. Right? Either hunger or simple MFP math tell you to eat more to fuel that hike: because you've spent Calories in order to perform it!
In my case, I have reasons to suspect a 2.5-3.5% of my TDEE AT which very closely brackets the 80 Cal mentioned by @psychod787. This has persisted a good 5 years post rapid weight loss. BUT, somewhere during the 24 to 28 month post rapid weight loss time period (discussed above as a probable time period during which hormones normalize) there was a marked improvement in my perception of how easy it was to stay within my caloric budget.
Let me repeat that: if you survive the initial post weight loss adjustment period (the first "two" years where most of us lose the battle), having some AT doesn't mean that you're spending your whole day hungry for lost calories! It does NOT feel like you're in a permanent 80 Cal deficit. It just feels like normal maintenance because your body is NOT ACTUALLY USING these calories in the first place!
This, of course, does not address "brain hamster issues" given that appetite and desire to eat are not always exact reflections of physical hunger!
I also note that the restoration of AT to normalcy often observed with full regain + a bit, is probably counterproductive!
To the bolded: Of course not. But that's not the point.
The point was: If I wasted a bunch of time worrying about the calories I might have lost to (theoretical) adaptive thermogenesis (or age, hypothyroidism, or any other thing), it would've accomplished nothing positive. If that worry (or sense of AT doom) overtook me before I figured out my personal TDEE was mysteriously but delightfully high, it would've (1) made me feel negative (anxious, stressed) for large stretches of time, completely optionally; (2) possibly have prevented me from doing the productive work to understand actual practical reality; and (3) maybe made me give up entirely before I reached my goals. Even if my personal reality was a low TDEE, all of those things still apply.
For all I know, I have hundreds of calories of adaptive thermogenesis (despite the mysteriously high TDEE). It still doesn't matter, and I still don't care. All I need to care about is my personal calorie goals, and figuring out how to work with them as happily and healthfully as possible, whether they're high, low, or right on the population average.
The "high TDEE" cases aren't to invalidate the possibility of adaptive thermogenesis, they're to illustrate one reason that it's not worth worrying about speculatively, in advance: Only your personal, practical case is worth time & energy. Worrying about things we can't influence/control is time and energy (and happiness) wasted.4 -
Since the android app ate my homework, I will just address a comment about AT being disproved because a person is eating above average calories to maintain.
Eating above average calories to maintain doesn't prove or disprove whether you, as an individual, have lost some calories to AT. For all you know you could have been maintaining at + or -10% (or whatever figure) more than what you are maintaining at today.
I will also address another issue which used to really concern me six years ago; but which is no longer a concern.
The fact that there exists some AT does not mean that you're ACTUALLY going to be PHYSICALLY HUNGRY for the "lost" amount of calories.
Do you consume the same amount of food when you spend the day sedentary, puttering around the house, or when you're super active, going for a 5 hour hike around the lake? Of course not. Right? Either hunger or simple MFP math tell you to eat more to fuel that hike: because you've spent Calories in order to perform it!
In my case, I have reasons to suspect a 2.5-3.5% of my TDEE AT which very closely brackets the 80 Cal mentioned by @psychod787. This has persisted a good 5 years post rapid weight loss. BUT, somewhere during the 24 to 28 month post rapid weight loss time period (discussed above as a probable time period during which hormones normalize) there was a marked improvement in my perception of how easy it was to stay within my caloric budget.
Let me repeat that: if you survive the initial post weight loss adjustment period (the first "two" years where most of us lose the battle), having some AT doesn't mean that you're spending your whole day hungry for lost calories! It does NOT feel like you're in a permanent 80 Cal deficit. It just feels like normal maintenance because your body is NOT ACTUALLY USING these calories in the first place!
This, of course, does not address "brain hamster issues" given that appetite and desire to eat are not always exact reflections of physical hunger!
I also note that the restoration of AT to normalcy often observed with full regain + a bit, is probably counterproductive!
To the bolded: Of course not. But that's not the point.
The point was: If I wasted a bunch of time worrying about the calories I might have lost to (theoretical) adaptive thermogenesis (or age, hypothyroidism, or any other thing), it would've accomplished nothing positive. If that worry (or sense of AT doom) overtook me before I figured out my personal TDEE was mysteriously but delightfully high, it would've (1) made me feel negative (anxious, stressed) for large stretches of time, completely optionally; (2) possibly have prevented me from doing the productive work to understand actual practical reality; and (3) maybe made me give up entirely before I reached my goals. Even if my personal reality was a low TDEE, all of those things still apply.
For all I know, I have hundreds of calories of adaptive thermogenesis (despite the mysteriously high TDEE). It still doesn't matter, and I still don't care. All I need to care about is my personal calorie goals, and figuring out how to work with them as happily and healthfully as possible, whether they're high, low, or right on the population average.
The "high TDEE" cases aren't to invalidate the possibility of adaptive thermogenesis, they're to illustrate one reason that it's not worth worrying about speculatively, in advance: Only your personal, practical case is worth time & energy. Worrying about things we can't influence/control is time and energy (and happiness) wasted.
@AnnPT77 aunt granny. How is the holy hell do I manage to open a can of worms everytime I post? 🤣 God forbid I mention set point theory or Dr.Jason Fun... nope... nope....not saying his name!
While I agree with everything you have said, i think there are twot ypes of peopl when it comes to issues like. Some are ok with... yep it works..... then there are folks like me and @PAV8888 , we like to see what makes things tick...1 -
psychod787 wrote: »Since the android app ate my homework, I will just address a comment about AT being disproved because a person is eating above average calories to maintain.
Eating above average calories to maintain doesn't prove or disprove whether you, as an individual, have lost some calories to AT. For all you know you could have been maintaining at + or -10% (or whatever figure) more than what you are maintaining at today.
I will also address another issue which used to really concern me six years ago; but which is no longer a concern.
The fact that there exists some AT does not mean that you're ACTUALLY going to be PHYSICALLY HUNGRY for the "lost" amount of calories.
Do you consume the same amount of food when you spend the day sedentary, puttering around the house, or when you're super active, going for a 5 hour hike around the lake? Of course not. Right? Either hunger or simple MFP math tell you to eat more to fuel that hike: because you've spent Calories in order to perform it!
In my case, I have reasons to suspect a 2.5-3.5% of my TDEE AT which very closely brackets the 80 Cal mentioned by @psychod787. This has persisted a good 5 years post rapid weight loss. BUT, somewhere during the 24 to 28 month post rapid weight loss time period (discussed above as a probable time period during which hormones normalize) there was a marked improvement in my perception of how easy it was to stay within my caloric budget.
Let me repeat that: if you survive the initial post weight loss adjustment period (the first "two" years where most of us lose the battle), having some AT doesn't mean that you're spending your whole day hungry for lost calories! It does NOT feel like you're in a permanent 80 Cal deficit. It just feels like normal maintenance because your body is NOT ACTUALLY USING these calories in the first place!
This, of course, does not address "brain hamster issues" given that appetite and desire to eat are not always exact reflections of physical hunger!
I also note that the restoration of AT to normalcy often observed with full regain + a bit, is probably counterproductive!
To the bolded: Of course not. But that's not the point.
The point was: If I wasted a bunch of time worrying about the calories I might have lost to (theoretical) adaptive thermogenesis (or age, hypothyroidism, or any other thing), it would've accomplished nothing positive. If that worry (or sense of AT doom) overtook me before I figured out my personal TDEE was mysteriously but delightfully high, it would've (1) made me feel negative (anxious, stressed) for large stretches of time, completely optionally; (2) possibly have prevented me from doing the productive work to understand actual practical reality; and (3) maybe made me give up entirely before I reached my goals. Even if my personal reality was a low TDEE, all of those things still apply.
For all I know, I have hundreds of calories of adaptive thermogenesis (despite the mysteriously high TDEE). It still doesn't matter, and I still don't care. All I need to care about is my personal calorie goals, and figuring out how to work with them as happily and healthfully as possible, whether they're high, low, or right on the population average.
The "high TDEE" cases aren't to invalidate the possibility of adaptive thermogenesis, they're to illustrate one reason that it's not worth worrying about speculatively, in advance: Only your personal, practical case is worth time & energy. Worrying about things we can't influence/control is time and energy (and happiness) wasted.
@AnnPT77 aunt granny. How is the holy hell do I manage to open a can of worms everytime I post? 🤣 God forbid I mention set point theory or Dr.Jason Fun... nope... nope....not saying his name!
While I agree with everything you have said, i think there are twot ypes of peopl when it comes to issues like. Some are ok with... yep it works..... then there are folks like me and @PAV8888 , we like to see what makes things tick...
Oh, I'm fascinated by how it works. Learning about it is fun, and potentially useful.
But IMO OP is getting bogged down in stressing over fear of regain, the idea that science can't say how long AT lasts, over "lots of depressing articles about how few people keep weight off, "metabolic adaption", microbiome changes associated with obesity, and all that stuff."
That stuff is academically interesting, some of it can be useful.
But fear, worry, annoyance, stress over it? Not helpful. The practical part one needs for base success is pretty simple. One maintains by understanding (within a certain error tolerance) how much to eat for one's own personal body's needs, and adjusts by watching the scale (or the fit of a particular pair of jeans or something).
To say "Worrying about things we can't influence/control is a waste of time and energy" is not the same as saying "Learning about - and considering whether one can apply - research and theory is a waste of time and energy."
It's the stress, the fear, the worry that's optional, completely unnecessary and unhelpful; not the liking or wanting to know how stuff works.4 -
To the bolded: Of course not. But that's not the point.
The point was: If I wasted a bunch of time worrying about the calories I might have lost to (theoretical) adaptive thermogenesis (or age, hypothyroidism, or any other thing), it would've accomplished nothing positive. If that worry (or sense of AT doom) overtook me before I figured out my personal TDEE was mysteriously but delightfully high, it would've (1) made me feel negative (anxious, stressed) for large stretches of time, completely optionally; (2) possibly have prevented me from doing the productive work to understand actual practical reality; and (3) maybe made me give up entirely before I reached my goals.
<SNIP! <-- I so wanted to do this with one of your posts Ann!!!! <evil laugh>>
Only your personal, practical case is worth time & energy. Worrying about things we can't influence/control is time and energy (and happiness) wasted.
I think we're more in agreement than you appear to credit!
In fact I thought that my post was saying similar things to your post: you take what precautions you can to minimize bad stuff within your personal context and tolerances (same as with strength training) and then you move forward.
After spending decades making uneducated attempts to lose weight and/or deep down believing that it was impossible to lose and maintain (thus either not trying, or trying and regaining+friends) I feel somewhat compelled to mention that even though there may exist AT after weight loss, even though there may exist a hormonally induced push towards regain after weight loss (and not just simple personal will-power failings), these things are not necessarily permanent and forever (ergo there is light at the end of the tunnel), nor is the battle necessarily lost ahead of the game.
Forewarned, forearmed, taking precautions, and being prepared to react, and adjust, and win are good. Paralyzed and debilitated... not good.
As with so many things, balance seems to be the way forward!2 -
You're speaking of fear of failure. When failure happens, it should be a learning experience. So if the weight crept back up, it's because you neglected to be consistent. It's then really an easy fix. Be consistent. If you do that, you shouldn't have to fear weight regain.I haven't yet reached my maintenance goal, but I'm having serious anxiety issues related to fear of putting the weight back on. Partly this is because I fear the health consequences of doing so (weight loss is not primarily about looks for me at this stage in my life, although I'll take looking better as a bonus
). Partly because I have read lots of depressing articles about how few people keep weight off, "metabolic adaption", microbiome changes associated with obesity, and all that stuff. Also because I lost all the weight once before, but then watched it creep back on over the years until I was heavier than ever (although I was never doing proper calorie counting at that point).
How do you deal with the fear?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Worry, worry, worry. Annoyance, stress, sense of unfairness, anxiety, resentment. It accomplishes nothing, it makes me feel bad, it doesn't make me more successful.
Why waste my energy doing it? Worry, stress, anxiety don't improve anything. I'm far better off focusing my energy on what it takes for me, personally, to be satiated and happy with life at my experientially-determined calorie need. Everything else is a waste of my time and energy.
Thanks @AnnPT77. That's the sort of stern talking to I needed.
I think part of the problem - and I think this might be common to lots of people - is that this process has taught me to distrust my own capacity for self-reassurance. For years, my capacity for self-reassurance was an enemy, not a friend. "You're not that fat", "At least you're not as fat as that guy", "You're just well built", "One more won't hurt", "You can start a diet on Monday" etc. On and on, very comfortable and reassured, very happy, and all the while ruining my health and getting bigger than I would have ever thought possible.
So although worrying is pointless, it almost feels safer than being reassured.
I can't be the only one who has felt that, can I?
(I probably need therapy ) 5 -
Worry, worry, worry. Annoyance, stress, sense of unfairness, anxiety, resentment. It accomplishes nothing, it makes me feel bad, it doesn't make me more successful.
Why waste my energy doing it? Worry, stress, anxiety don't improve anything. I'm far better off focusing my energy on what it takes for me, personally, to be satiated and happy with life at my experientially-determined calorie need. Everything else is a waste of my time and energy.
Thanks @AnnPT77. That's the sort of stern talking to I needed.
I think part of the problem - and I think this might be common to lots of people - is that this process has taught me to distrust my own capacity for self-reassurance. For years, my capacity for self-reassurance was an enemy, not a friend. "You're not that fat", "At least you're not as fat as that guy", "You're just well built", "One more won't hurt", "You can start a diet on Monday" etc. On and on, very comfortable and reassured, very happy, and all the while ruining my health and getting bigger than I would have ever thought possible.
So although worrying is pointless, it almost feels safer than being reassured.
I can't be the only one who has felt that, can I?
(I probably need therapy )
Therapy is a wonderful thing, like other useful tools to improve life (physical therapy, medical exams (and treatments when needed), dietitians, personal trainers, etc.). It should have no more stigma than any of those, if we choose to seek help with our not-yet-ideal thought patterns. Nowadays, there are phone or video versions, even. Much can be achieved in a few sessions of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, say.
Beyond that, about the self-trust and self-reassurance: I can understand that. (Hey, I was obese for 30+ years!)
An advantage you have in this case, if you choose to take advantage of it: You can treat weight management, nutrition, even fitness to a certain extent, like a fun science fair project for grown-ups. Base what you do on data.
* Set a goal weight (in conjunction with your doctor, if you're uncertain).
* Learn about your personal daily fluctuation range, and set a maintenance range accordingly, low and high weights. (A weight trending app can be a help in this.) You don't want to set an upper limit that you will bounce over frequently with normal water-retention changes; you want the range to encompass normal fluctuation so there aren't constant freak-out triggers. You may even want a rule that says something like "intervene if over the top end for 3 days continuously" or something - especially if your range is smaller.
* If you want to keep calorie counting, you can do that, or you can use some other eating-management strategy (I think some have been discussed in the thread, but you can always look at threads here to see what others do, and figure out what will work for you).
* Manage your activity level. Set an enjoyable, manageable schedule of activity ("exercise"), and keep it consistent. Numbers: 3 times a week cardio, 2 times a week strength (for example - use numbers that work for you).
* Watch your scale weight, and adjust your eating. Recognize that if something changes (drive to work instead of walking to the bus stop,say), it might have an effect, and watch your data. Have a plan, mostly stick with it, change it on an intentional basis. (But an occasional deviation because of circumstances is no big deal - a droplet in the sea of your routine.)
Self-reassurance need not be the guide, or the flaw. Use the data. On the psychological side, doing that with some consistency will build confidence in your own abilities, as a plus. None of this need be obsessive. Give it an amount of time daily or weekly, to do the processes that are essential, and keep it in that cubbyhole. It doesn't need more brain-share than it gets in the time it takes to do the necessary tasks. (Think about dental health: Betting you brush your teeth daily, possibly floss, maybe get a hygienist cleaning and dentist exam every 6 months or so, deal with any exceptional problem (broken tooth?) as the exception it is . . . but you probably don't spend much energy or emotion on dental health. It's routine. Bodyweight can be a routine, mostly, too.)
An important fact to understand is that very quick large weight changes are almost certainly water weight and/or temporary digestive tract contents. You have to eat roughly 3500 calories over maintenance to gain a pound of fat (or move less, by the same extent). If 2 pounds suddenly shows up on the scale, and you didn't eat more or move less by 7000 calories in the last few days, it can't be fat, it has to be water/digestive waste.
Actual regain tends to be slow creep, not sudden jumps. While that makes self-delusion easier, sticking with your maintenance range is the counter-measure. Intervene when you start to hover at/above the top end. Base it on data, not "feelings".
Understand: I'm not deprecating emotions as an important thing in life, in many ways. But right now, managing those seems to be part of your personal struggle toward continuously improving health and happiness.
You're doing a great job with the self-insights and information-seeking. You can do this, you can be one of the long-term bodyweight success stories. And you can prove that to yourself: Just do the practical, concrete things that need to be done, with reasonable consistency.
Wishing you all the best!4 -
Doesn't it annoy you guys that no one seems to know this stuff for sure? To my mind, the obesity crisis is the second greatest crisis facing humanity, second only to climate change (although I realise that this view may be coloured by my own personal struggles). It feels like it weird that no one knows basic things like "how long does adaptive thermogenesis last".
The fact that it is hard to quantify actually just helps me marginalize it. I respect it enough to act prudently but fretting over it will not be productive. It is kind of like loose skin. Do I want to die early to avoid it? Nope.
From what I understand BMR moves slightly based on feast or famine. I have spent a good deal of my life in feast so is it not just as reasonable to assume that my BMR was elevated before I started losing and when I am weight stable for a period of time it will just be whatever normal was supposed to be for me in the first place?3 -
I haven't yet reached my maintenance goal, but I'm having serious anxiety issues related to fear of putting the weight back on. Partly this is because I fear the health consequences of doing so (weight loss is not primarily about looks for me at this stage in my life, although I'll take looking better as a bonus ). Partly because I have read lots of depressing articles about how few people keep weight off, "metabolic adaption", microbiome changes associated with obesity, and all that stuff. Also because I lost all the weight once before, but then watched it creep back on over the years until I was heavier than ever (although I was never doing proper calorie counting at that point).
How do you deal with the fear?
My fear dissipated after a year of maintenance. 71 lbs down (Lifelong 40-50 years of obesity.) age 64
I did not heed the advice, often given in this group, to have a 10-lb maintenance range (+/- 5 lbs). Instead I gave myself a 2 lb range. Because I was scared I would gain.
In a month or so I bounced up to 155 and then felt behinder and behinder as I got up to 159 then low 160’s 6-8 months later
2 lbs over 60 days is 116 more calories a day. It took me awhile to realize that even 1/2 slice of toast would put the weight back on.
Finally at one year past maintenance (and no eating out/take out since late Feb) I could accurately determine what my TDEE is. THIS knowledge has helped me immeasurably (thanks to the wisdom of folks on this discussion board) I now know what I can eat safely. THIS HAS BEEN the KEY to me. My calories in & out now accurately show up on my avg weight!!!!!!!
Additionally, with hidden calories from eating out removed from picture, I learned I could eat a LOT more. I had more calories to exercise & built strength & endurance, increasing my daily avg exercise by 20% in 2020 over 2019. This happened naturally.
I decided to switch my goal range to “in the 150’s,” which places my BMI under 24. Much less scary. Less stress. Enjoying life more.
IT’s a whole new world!
Apps like MFP
Access to successful maintainers (this board & folks has been invaluable to me) TY
Easiest calorie counting ever
Habit apps or groups on MFP
Long term weight trends apps (invaluable - have always - even while losing looked at monthly averages)
Fitness watches/bands with calories burned computed ...averages etc. and now many motivating, friendly competitions
It will be FAR easier than prior time(s)
I promise
Finally, about a month ago, I came up with the question: “How might I make maintenance EASY?” Everyone has stories/memories of gaining in the past...
I simplified my focus:
Is my weight in the 150’s?
Is my weight trend up, down, or same?
Have I eaten > five 3oz servings a day
Is my sat fat <28 g on avg per day?
I don’t focus on my weighing myself daily, # of steps, Mins of exercise, fiber, protein, carbs, cups of water, measurements of body, sugar, tracking my food as I did earlier in my journey because I ALWAYS do these thing as habits.
It gets easier.
If you are truly fearful..
1. Identify a Big Why that is greater than any temporary food treat. mine ended up being: “To be the healthiest I can be so I can ACTIVELY experience like with my husband & son”
Just saying “Big Why” To myself helps Me get perspective.
2. Consider taking a 1-4 week maintenance break. I did this several times to prove to myself that I could maintain that weight. I did not want to lose more weight than I could maintain.
I’m sorry for the book, but wanted to help.
Best
Maddie💞7 -
After three previous occasions of regaining after a major weight loss, I am terrified of regaining. I’ve been at normal BMI 3 years now and I’m still terrified. In the past, two factors led to regain: gradually switching over to eating more like my husband, and major disasters: being unable to exercise due to injury/lupus flare, or having to deal with high stress situations such as the death of a parent. I still haven’t had a true flare this go-round, so I’m petrified that if I find myself bedridden for a long period of time, everything will come unraveled. And knock wood I haven’t had to face any major crises that lasted more than a couple of weeks at a time. However, I have had major injuries - a ruptured Baker’s cyst and a seriously messed up Achilles’ tendon - which stopped me from running or lifting for months at a time. And I didn’t gain weight during that time. In addition, I have my husband on board now. He doesn’t tempt me with high calorie foods, and he enjoys exercise and healthful eating himself. I just have to trust that if disaster strikes, I will be ready to cope with it, because I have the skills and the tools I need now. I have yet to face a major crisis, but I have handled minor crises which disrupted my schedule by substituting quick HIIT workouts for longer ones, and cutting back my calories. I have learned to mostly find something reasonably low-calorie and satisfying to eat even when trapped in the food swamp that is the medical district. (A food swamp is like a food desert, but whereas in a food desert there are no grocery stores selling fresh food, in a food swamp there are twenty junk food emporiums on every block.)
You develop the tools you need, the support you need, and the skills and habits you need. You are as prepared as you know how to be. That’s the best you can do today. You can’t do anything about tomorrow until tomorrow comes, so it’s a waste of resources to fret about it. As Jesus said, “Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof!”3 -
Worry, worry, worry. Annoyance, stress, sense of unfairness, anxiety, resentment. It accomplishes nothing, it makes me feel bad, it doesn't make me more successful.
Why waste my energy doing it? Worry, stress, anxiety don't improve anything. I'm far better off focusing my energy on what it takes for me, personally, to be satiated and happy with life at my experientially-determined calorie need. Everything else is a waste of my time and energy.
Thanks @AnnPT77. That's the sort of stern talking to I needed.
I think part of the problem - and I think this might be common to lots of people - is that this process has taught me to distrust my own capacity for self-reassurance. For years, my capacity for self-reassurance was an enemy, not a friend. "You're not that fat", "At least you're not as fat as that guy", "You're just well built", "One more won't hurt", "You can start a diet on Monday" etc. On and on, very comfortable and reassured, very happy, and all the while ruining my health and getting bigger than I would have ever thought possible.
So although worrying is pointless, it almost feels safer than being reassured.
I can't be the only one who has felt that, can I?
(I probably need therapy )
Therapy is a wonderful thing, like other useful tools to improve life (physical therapy, medical exams (and treatments when needed), dietitians, personal trainers, etc.). It should have no more stigma than any of those, if we choose to seek help with our not-yet-ideal thought patterns. Nowadays, there are phone or video versions, even. Much can be achieved in a few sessions of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, say.
Beyond that, about the self-trust and self-reassurance: I can understand that. (Hey, I was obese for 30+ years!)
An advantage you have in this case, if you choose to take advantage of it: You can treat weight management, nutrition, even fitness to a certain extent, like a fun science fair project for grown-ups. Base what you do on data.
* Set a goal weight (in conjunction with your doctor, if you're uncertain).
* Learn about your personal daily fluctuation range, and set a maintenance range accordingly, low and high weights. (A weight trending app can be a help in this.) You don't want to set an upper limit that you will bounce over frequently with normal water-retention changes; you want the range to encompass normal fluctuation so there aren't constant freak-out triggers. You may even want a rule that says something like "intervene if over the top end for 3 days continuously" or something - especially if your range is smaller.
* If you want to keep calorie counting, you can do that, or you can use some other eating-management strategy (I think some have been discussed in the thread, but you can always look at threads here to see what others do, and figure out what will work for you).
* Manage your activity level. Set an enjoyable, manageable schedule of activity ("exercise"), and keep it consistent. Numbers: 3 times a week cardio, 2 times a week strength (for example - use numbers that work for you).
* Watch your scale weight, and adjust your eating. Recognize that if something changes (drive to work instead of walking to the bus stop,say), it might have an effect, and watch your data. Have a plan, mostly stick with it, change it on an intentional basis. (But an occasional deviation because of circumstances is no big deal - a droplet in the sea of your routine.)
Self-reassurance need not be the guide, or the flaw. Use the data. On the psychological side, doing that with some consistency will build confidence in your own abilities, as a plus. None of this need be obsessive. Give it an amount of time daily or weekly, to do the processes that are essential, and keep it in that cubbyhole. It doesn't need more brain-share than it gets in the time it takes to do the necessary tasks. (Think about dental health: Betting you brush your teeth daily, possibly floss, maybe get a hygienist cleaning and dentist exam every 6 months or so, deal with any exceptional problem (broken tooth?) as the exception it is . . . but you probably don't spend much energy or emotion on dental health. It's routine. Bodyweight can be a routine, mostly, too.)
An important fact to understand is that very quick large weight changes are almost certainly water weight and/or temporary digestive tract contents. You have to eat roughly 3500 calories over maintenance to gain a pound of fat (or move less, by the same extent). If 2 pounds suddenly shows up on the scale, and you didn't eat more or move less by 7000 calories in the last few days, it can't be fat, it has to be water/digestive waste.
Actual regain tends to be slow creep, not sudden jumps. While that makes self-delusion easier, sticking with your maintenance range is the counter-measure. Intervene when you start to hover at/above the top end. Base it on data, not "feelings".
Understand: I'm not deprecating emotions as an important thing in life, in many ways. But right now, managing those seems to be part of your personal struggle toward continuously improving health and happiness.
You're doing a great job with the self-insights and information-seeking. You can do this, you can be one of the long-term bodyweight success stories. And you can prove that to yourself: Just do the practical, concrete things that need to be done, with reasonable consistency.
Wishing you all the best!
Thanks @AnnPT77, this really helped a lot.1 -
This is a good discussion! Ultimately, it comes down to what works for you.
I'll tell you a little about my story, in case it helps you figure out yours.
I started my weight loss journey 3 years ago. It took me 1.5 yrs to lose 125 lbs. I've been maintaining for the last 1.5 yrs. At first it was rather effortless to just keep eating exactly the same and exercising exactly the same. This last winter my food intake stayed rather high from the summer, but my exercising virtually stopped. I gained about 15 lbs. I recognized that my clothes weren't fitting as well and I wasn't feeling the same. The number on the scale was a bit of a shock, but not entirely out of the blue. After about 1-2 weeks of eating a normal amount of food, I lost all the excess. I've also since increased my activity level and my food intake. I'm still down where I want to be. As long as I pay attention to the little warning signs (clothes not fitting as well, not feeling the best, etc.), I'm good. It's when I start completely ignoring those things and put the blinders on that I'm in real trouble. My diet won't change (I picked a way of eating that's sustainable for me for the rest of my life, if I choose), but the amount of food I eat may change based in my activity level.
I hope something in my story helps you. If not, I hope it was at least entertaining/interesting for a moment. 😁6 -
Thanks @dolphinie13. That's definitely helpful, especially the bit about picking lifestyle changes that are sustainable for the rest of one's life.0
-
Truth vs Feelings matter here. Go with what is true regardless of how you feel because that will
Keep You successful. The hard numbers say if you take in the amount of calories you need to maintain then you will maintain. It may take a couple of weeks to figure out what that number is but it works.
It is natural to feel concerned or worried for that simply because you don’t know what you don’t know yet. Trust the process… It works in the loss and it does work in the maintenance.
When fear knocks on the door open it with faith and there’s nobody there.4 -
See - this is where you are wrong - and you do yourself a disservice by thinking "it's not fair!" ... because everyone who is skinny/slim pays some attention to maintaining that. They may not have the same struggle and it might be easier for some ppl than others, but we live surrounded by excess food in the modern world. Literally no-one stays slim without being aware of their own in/out balance of calories, even if they don't count them like you do they will be doing some maths and making some alterations on a daily/ weekly basis to make sure they stay around their happy weight. Things like doing an extra aero class cos they're having a special night out or accepting a slice of birthday cake at work but skipping their evening meal to compensate for it.
MFP is for life, if we want to make it stick, cos if our own ability to balance our in/out tally isn't quite good enough we need this for support and encouragement.
Personally I have never got to my goal but I have foudn MFP a great tool to encourage the awareness I need to drop the pounds I gained and keep trying to that goal weight!
5 -
suzesvelte wrote: »
See - this is where you are wrong - and you do yourself a disservice by thinking "it's not fair!" ... because everyone who is skinny/slim pays some attention to maintaining that. They may not have the same struggle and it might be easier for some ppl than others, but we live surrounded by excess food in the modern world. Literally no-one stays slim without being aware of their own in/out balance of calories, even if they don't count them like you do they will be doing some maths and making some alterations on a daily/ weekly basis to make sure they stay around their happy weight. Things like doing an extra aero class cos they're having a special night out or accepting a slice of birthday cake at work but skipping their evening meal to compensate for it.
...
QFT. No one knows what another person goes through to maintain successfully. It's a pet peeve to hear "It's easy for you," which even my own mother says. I used to hear it as, "You can't do anything difficult that requires persistence and tenacity; you can only do easy *kitten*." I've learned to hear it as, "You're so adept you make it look easy." Every now and then I meet someone fit who is enjoying dessert (or some other treat) who expresses chagrin at those who assume he can do so without any self regulation to offset the splurge. There are lots of us out there!!4 -
suzesvelte wrote: »
See - this is where you are wrong - and you do yourself a disservice by thinking "it's not fair!" ... because everyone who is skinny/slim pays some attention to maintaining that. They may not have the same struggle and it might be easier for some ppl than others, but we live surrounded by excess food in the modern world. Literally no-one stays slim without being aware of their own in/out balance of calories, even if they don't count them like you do they will be doing some maths and making some alterations on a daily/ weekly basis to make sure they stay around their happy weight. Things like doing an extra aero class cos they're having a special night out or accepting a slice of birthday cake at work but skipping their evening meal to compensate for it.
MFP is for life, if we want to make it stick, cos if our own ability to balance our in/out tally isn't quite good enough we need this for support and encouragement.
Personally I have never got to my goal but I have foudn MFP a great tool to encourage the awareness I need to drop the pounds I gained and keep trying to that goal weight!
Endorsed.
For me, one of the benefits of having a wide range of good friends** is seeing this pretty graphically. Some of my friends - folks around them would say - are "naturally thin". They've always been a reasonably healthy weight (all the way up into 60s/70s now in some cases). They don't calorie count or necessarily do anything quite that explicit, but they have different habits that help them maintain their weight. For example, some I know will cut back on snacks and such if their waistband starts getting a little snug, or they tend to fall in with the bird-like lunch habits of their always-dieting co-workers out of social solidarity, among other things. For sure, it isn't magical. They may not calorie count, but they have weight-management strategies.
** I hang out with groups of on-water rowers, and groups of artists. It isn't universal in either group, but the active people are more likely to be managing their weight, and the artists are more likely not to be. And, speaking as someone who was athletically active with the rowers for over a decade while staying obese despite that, the difference is not simply exercise - no matter what some not-so-active people may believe.3 -
suzesvelte wrote: »
See - this is where you are wrong - and you do yourself a disservice by thinking "it's not fair!" ... because everyone who is skinny/slim pays some attention to maintaining that. They may not have the same struggle and it might be easier for some ppl than others, but we live surrounded by excess food in the modern world. Literally no-one stays slim without being aware of their own in/out balance of calories, even if they don't count them like you do they will be doing some maths and making some alterations on a daily/ weekly basis to make sure they stay around their happy weight. Things like doing an extra aero class cos they're having a special night out or accepting a slice of birthday cake at work but skipping their evening meal to compensate for it.
MFP is for life, if we want to make it stick, cos if our own ability to balance our in/out tally isn't quite good enough we need this for support and encouragement.
Personally I have never got to my goal but I have foudn MFP a great tool to encourage the awareness I need to drop the pounds I gained and keep trying to that goal weight!
Endorsed.
For me, one of the benefits of having a wide range of good friends** is seeing this pretty graphically. Some of my friends - folks around them would say - are "naturally thin". They've always been a reasonably healthy weight (all the way up into 60s/70s now in some cases). They don't calorie count or necessarily do anything quite that explicit, but they have different habits that help them maintain their weight. For example, some I know will cut back on snacks and such if their waistband starts getting a little snug, or they tend to fall in with the bird-like lunch habits of their always-dieting co-workers out of social solidarity, among other things. For sure, it isn't magical. They may not calorie count, but they have weight-management strategies.
** I hang out with groups of on-water rowers, and groups of artists. It isn't universal in either group, but the active people are more likely to be managing their weight, and the artists are more likely not to be. And, speaking as someone who was athletically active with the rowers for over a decade while staying obese despite that, the difference is not simply exercise - no matter what some not-so-active people may believe.1 -
suzesvelte wrote: »
See - this is where you are wrong - and you do yourself a disservice by thinking "it's not fair!" ... because everyone who is skinny/slim pays some attention to maintaining that. They may not have the same struggle and it might be easier for some ppl than others, but we live surrounded by excess food in the modern world. Literally no-one stays slim without being aware of their own in/out balance of calories, even if they don't count them like you do they will be doing some maths and making some alterations on a daily/ weekly basis to make sure they stay around their happy weight. Things like doing an extra aero class cos they're having a special night out or accepting a slice of birthday cake at work but skipping their evening meal to compensate for it.
MFP is for life, if we want to make it stick, cos if our own ability to balance our in/out tally isn't quite good enough we need this for support and encouragement.
Personally I have never got to my goal but I have foudn MFP a great tool to encourage the awareness I need to drop the pounds I gained and keep trying to that goal weight!
It is a matter of perspective.
I count (pun intended) myself lucky that I now know how to log my food correctly and I have used this and other knowledge to change my life for the better.
People that do not yet possess this knowledge who currently maintain at a healthy weight are at risk of gaining or losing if something changes in their activity or food circumstance and they do not adapt. I have known many people who were at or close to a healthy weight that experienced the "middle age spread" and most have not been able to get it back off yet.
So is it fair that I am at less risk if I continue doing it and they are? Or is it unfair that I have to count my calories and they do not?3 -
suzesvelte wrote: »
See - this is where you are wrong - and you do yourself a disservice by thinking "it's not fair!"
I know that now. I only wish I had known it 10 years ago!
Unfortunately, I'm very prone to self pity and "why me!?" thoughts. Or even "why us!?" i.e. why are human beings so messed up that, after millennia of struggling to reliably get enough to eat, having finally achieved that utopian goal, now millions of people die from having *too much* to eat! If it wasn't tragic it would be hilarious.1
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