Doctor wants me to try low fat plant based diet. Very difficult, need resources.
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
Same with any restriction as a whole
I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.
I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.
Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.
I think at least part of it is having a stable population to study. Although lots of people try keto for weight management, I'm not sure there is a large group of people who stay on it long-term to provide the basis for the type of evidence that would be useful for this conversation.
(Someone else may have the information on many people are doing keto long-term for weight management, but I've never found an estimate).
I go on Pub Med, NIH, etc. Science Direct.
Are there studies on there involving people who have been using keto for long-term weight management? I'm less questioning your sources of information than I am skeptical that there are many studies looking at this issue.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I had found several studied on the potential detrenents to long term keto- I have to copy paste from my computer- but all this is dependant on variables. Low carb is often best. Plant based is also cross sectional and is a wide range. Vegan is vegan- no animal period. Keto and vegan ard more confining so the potential can be different. I've seen ppl have kidney failure from keto and liver- gallbladder problems and some vegans become deficient in B12, Omegas and other nutrients
Same with any restriction as a whole
I was curious and looked for studies on the long-term effects of keto and when I did my search, what I noticed is that most of the studies showing negative impacts were actually studies of people who were on the diet for the original purpose -- to control epilepsy. This wouldn't necessarily be applicable for those using keto for weight management because the parameters of the former diet are much more restrictive and go beyond what is done by the typical keto dieter. Specifically, the ratio of fat to other macronutrients is typically higher, there aren't allowances for things like net carbohydrates, and going off plan for even a single meal can have negative consequences. In the instances of the diet being used for seizure control, it's often worthwhile for people to use the diet DESPITE the nutritional implications just because it is used when other methods to control serious epilepsy have failed.
I'm not sure if the studies you found were focused on the implications of this style of keto diet, but when I looked that was the main research I was able to find.
Yes I will look more but it's shocking to me to not find more research with this conclusion because I have some friends and customers who got very sick from keto dpecifically- BUT I must digress in noting if someone is able to sustain a high fat diet without elevated LDL, cholesterol heart health, blood pressure and kidney function it's better than not. However I know people who are on exact opposite and Thriving too.
I think at least part of it is having a stable population to study. Although lots of people try keto for weight management, I'm not sure there is a large group of people who stay on it long-term to provide the basis for the type of evidence that would be useful for this conversation.
(Someone else may have the information on many people are doing keto long-term for weight management, but I've never found an estimate).
I don't think there are enough for it to be part of the big cohort studies.2 -
Going to stay out of this as I have nothing to add (I do not follow a plant based or vegan diet and eat higher fat/protein and consume animal products). Just one question for @tsazani though: are you happy?0
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Folks, in case I wasn't clear, I'm seeing an endocrinologist and following her treatment plan. There is a dietitian integrated in the endocrinology practice.
At the outset, I was looking for ways to manage a vegan diet because I thought I was supposed to do that but had no experience with it.
Having discovered that such a diet is inappropriate for me, and having uncovered a load of conflicts of interest in the proponents of veganism that my GP follows, the conversation changed. OK? Not looking for a diagnosis on MFP. I already have one.
Glad you found better medical care!
The conversation has moved past your OP into a debate of the merits of various WOE in general
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Blue zones are easy. I live in one. My wife's grandma died at 110. Her hubby died at 101.
Nicoya Peninsula (Costa Rica): The Nicoyan diet is based around beans and corn tortillas. The people of this area regularly perform physical jobs into old age and have a sense of life purpose.
1. People in blue zones don't over eat. THIS IS KEY. They eat REAL food. In CR they eat rice and beans. meat. eggs, full fat dairy, some fruit and coffee.
2. They walk a lot and do jobs which require constant manual labor.
3. They are very religious. They live in rural or semi rural areas. They sleep well. They live stress free lives.
You left out rice, bananas, plantains, papaya, squash, pejibaje, and yams.
Carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs.
Not sure how that squares with your statement, "carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death"8 -
kshama2001 wrote: »
I have a friend who did it for about eight months in the hopes of resolving a health issue. Her diet was so limited, she said she didn't understand why anyone would do it without a strong motivation like health reasons. Fortunately her time on it was able to be short term.2 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Blue zones are easy. I live in one. My wife's grandma died at 110. Her hubby died at 101.
Nicoya Peninsula (Costa Rica): The Nicoyan diet is based around beans and corn tortillas. The people of this area regularly perform physical jobs into old age and have a sense of life purpose.
1. People in blue zones don't over eat. THIS IS KEY. They eat REAL food. In CR they eat rice and beans. meat. eggs, full fat dairy, some fruit and coffee.
2. They walk a lot and do jobs which require constant manual labor.
3. They are very religious. They live in rural or semi rural areas. They sleep well. They live stress free lives.
You left out rice, bananas, plantains, papaya, squash, pejibaje, and yams.
Carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs.
Not sure how that squares with your statement, "carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death"
If they're obese, don't get much or any exercise, ate mostly processed foods, basically consumed the SAD diet then they would more than likely end up like most countries that adopt the SAD diet.
Looks like those people might live a different lifestyle. the Okinawans have a saying....hara hachi bu which means only eat until your 80% full. Not sure but I suspect that may have a factory why they live longer and probably have a pretty good resistance to oreo cookies and Mickey D's.
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neanderthin wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Blue zones are easy. I live in one. My wife's grandma died at 110. Her hubby died at 101.
Nicoya Peninsula (Costa Rica): The Nicoyan diet is based around beans and corn tortillas. The people of this area regularly perform physical jobs into old age and have a sense of life purpose.
1. People in blue zones don't over eat. THIS IS KEY. They eat REAL food. In CR they eat rice and beans. meat. eggs, full fat dairy, some fruit and coffee.
2. They walk a lot and do jobs which require constant manual labor.
3. They are very religious. They live in rural or semi rural areas. They sleep well. They live stress free lives.
You left out rice, bananas, plantains, papaya, squash, pejibaje, and yams.
Carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs.
Not sure how that squares with your statement, "carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death"
If they're obese, don't get much or any exercise, ate mostly processed foods, basically consumed the SAD diet then they would more than likely end up like most countries that adopt the SAD diet.
Looks like those people might live a different lifestyle. the Okinawans have a saying....hara hachi bu which means only eat until your 80% full. Not sure but I suspect that may have a factory why they live longer and probably have a pretty good resistance to oreo cookies and Mickey D's.
That's the whole point, isn't it? The carbohydrates aren't the problem, it's the obesity, lack of activity, and an over-emphasis on non nutrient-dense foods (which I think is more to the point that just blaming "processing").
It's silly to blame carbohydrates for something that is really a collection of other behaviors and choices.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Blue zones are easy. I live in one. My wife's grandma died at 110. Her hubby died at 101.
Nicoya Peninsula (Costa Rica): The Nicoyan diet is based around beans and corn tortillas. The people of this area regularly perform physical jobs into old age and have a sense of life purpose.
1. People in blue zones don't over eat. THIS IS KEY. They eat REAL food. In CR they eat rice and beans. meat. eggs, full fat dairy, some fruit and coffee.
2. They walk a lot and do jobs which require constant manual labor.
3. They are very religious. They live in rural or semi rural areas. They sleep well. They live stress free lives.
You left out rice, bananas, plantains, papaya, squash, pejibaje, and yams.
Carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs.
Not sure how that squares with your statement, "carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death"
If they're obese, don't get much or any exercise, ate mostly processed foods, basically consumed the SAD diet then they would more than likely end up like most countries that adopt the SAD diet.
Looks like those people might live a different lifestyle. the Okinawans have a saying....hara hachi bu which means only eat until your 80% full. Not sure but I suspect that may have a factory why they live longer and probably have a pretty good resistance to oreo cookies and Mickey D's.
That's the whole point, isn't it? The carbohydrates aren't the problem, it's the obesity, lack of activity, and an over-emphasis on non nutrient-dense foods (which I think is more to the point that just blaming "processing").
It's silly to blame carbohydrates for something that is really a collection of other behaviors and choices.
It's definitely complicated. Many cultures have eaten plenty of carbs without a problem. I've eaten mostly carbs (highest macronutrient) most of my life and I'm 68 for reference. My health markers are fine.
Carbs aren't the problem and I agree 100%. Hormones are the problem. Unfortunately that doesn't follow the CICO or a calorie is a calorie hypothesis, so it's dismissed pretty quickly. Do different foods effect hormones differently, if the answer is yes, then investigation might help people broaden their nutritional horizons. I believe foods do effect hormones imo, cheers!
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neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Blue zones are easy. I live in one. My wife's grandma died at 110. Her hubby died at 101.
Nicoya Peninsula (Costa Rica): The Nicoyan diet is based around beans and corn tortillas. The people of this area regularly perform physical jobs into old age and have a sense of life purpose.
1. People in blue zones don't over eat. THIS IS KEY. They eat REAL food. In CR they eat rice and beans. meat. eggs, full fat dairy, some fruit and coffee.
2. They walk a lot and do jobs which require constant manual labor.
3. They are very religious. They live in rural or semi rural areas. They sleep well. They live stress free lives.
You left out rice, bananas, plantains, papaya, squash, pejibaje, and yams.
Carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs.
Not sure how that squares with your statement, "carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death"
If they're obese, don't get much or any exercise, ate mostly processed foods, basically consumed the SAD diet then they would more than likely end up like most countries that adopt the SAD diet.
Looks like those people might live a different lifestyle. the Okinawans have a saying....hara hachi bu which means only eat until your 80% full. Not sure but I suspect that may have a factory why they live longer and probably have a pretty good resistance to oreo cookies and Mickey D's.
That's the whole point, isn't it? The carbohydrates aren't the problem, it's the obesity, lack of activity, and an over-emphasis on non nutrient-dense foods (which I think is more to the point that just blaming "processing").
It's silly to blame carbohydrates for something that is really a collection of other behaviors and choices.
It's definitely complicated. Many cultures have eaten plenty of carbs without a problem. I've eaten mostly carbs (highest macronutrient) most of my life and I'm 68 for reference. My health markers are fine.
Carbs aren't the problem and I agree 100%. Hormones are the problem. Unfortunately that doesn't follow the CICO or a calorie is a calorie hypothesis, so it's dismissed pretty quickly. Do different foods effect hormones differently, if the answer is yes, then investigation might help people broaden their nutritional horizons. I believe foods do effect hormones imo, cheers!
I'm not sure what you think CICO is, but we don't deny that hormones are real and can impact our wellbeing. When you say "hormones are the problem" are you saying that calories are irrelevant to our weight management?2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Blue zones are easy. I live in one. My wife's grandma died at 110. Her hubby died at 101.
Nicoya Peninsula (Costa Rica): The Nicoyan diet is based around beans and corn tortillas. The people of this area regularly perform physical jobs into old age and have a sense of life purpose.
1. People in blue zones don't over eat. THIS IS KEY. They eat REAL food. In CR they eat rice and beans. meat. eggs, full fat dairy, some fruit and coffee.
2. They walk a lot and do jobs which require constant manual labor.
3. They are very religious. They live in rural or semi rural areas. They sleep well. They live stress free lives.
You left out rice, bananas, plantains, papaya, squash, pejibaje, and yams.
Carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs.
Not sure how that squares with your statement, "carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death"
If they're obese, don't get much or any exercise, ate mostly processed foods, basically consumed the SAD diet then they would more than likely end up like most countries that adopt the SAD diet.
Looks like those people might live a different lifestyle. the Okinawans have a saying....hara hachi bu which means only eat until your 80% full. Not sure but I suspect that may have a factory why they live longer and probably have a pretty good resistance to oreo cookies and Mickey D's.
That's the whole point, isn't it? The carbohydrates aren't the problem, it's the obesity, lack of activity, and an over-emphasis on non nutrient-dense foods (which I think is more to the point that just blaming "processing").
It's silly to blame carbohydrates for something that is really a collection of other behaviors and choices.
It's definitely complicated. Many cultures have eaten plenty of carbs without a problem. I've eaten mostly carbs (highest macronutrient) most of my life and I'm 68 for reference. My health markers are fine.
Carbs aren't the problem and I agree 100%. Hormones are the problem. Unfortunately that doesn't follow the CICO or a calorie is a calorie hypothesis, so it's dismissed pretty quickly. Do different foods effect hormones differently, if the answer is yes, then investigation might help people broaden their nutritional horizons. I believe foods do effect hormones imo, cheers!
I'm not sure what you think CICO is, but we don't deny that hormones are real and can impact our wellbeing. When you say "hormones are the problem" are you saying that calories are irrelevant to our weight management?
Yes of course calories are important for weight management, that's why people count calories. Why people have to count calories is the question. From my observation and this may not include you, generally speaking CICO dictates that it's not what you eat but how much you eat, it repeated ad nauseum, that is what I meant.0 -
neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Blue zones are easy. I live in one. My wife's grandma died at 110. Her hubby died at 101.
Nicoya Peninsula (Costa Rica): The Nicoyan diet is based around beans and corn tortillas. The people of this area regularly perform physical jobs into old age and have a sense of life purpose.
1. People in blue zones don't over eat. THIS IS KEY. They eat REAL food. In CR they eat rice and beans. meat. eggs, full fat dairy, some fruit and coffee.
2. They walk a lot and do jobs which require constant manual labor.
3. They are very religious. They live in rural or semi rural areas. They sleep well. They live stress free lives.
You left out rice, bananas, plantains, papaya, squash, pejibaje, and yams.
Carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs.
Not sure how that squares with your statement, "carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death"
If they're obese, don't get much or any exercise, ate mostly processed foods, basically consumed the SAD diet then they would more than likely end up like most countries that adopt the SAD diet.
Looks like those people might live a different lifestyle. the Okinawans have a saying....hara hachi bu which means only eat until your 80% full. Not sure but I suspect that may have a factory why they live longer and probably have a pretty good resistance to oreo cookies and Mickey D's.
That's the whole point, isn't it? The carbohydrates aren't the problem, it's the obesity, lack of activity, and an over-emphasis on non nutrient-dense foods (which I think is more to the point that just blaming "processing").
It's silly to blame carbohydrates for something that is really a collection of other behaviors and choices.
It's definitely complicated. Many cultures have eaten plenty of carbs without a problem. I've eaten mostly carbs (highest macronutrient) most of my life and I'm 68 for reference. My health markers are fine.
Carbs aren't the problem and I agree 100%. Hormones are the problem. Unfortunately that doesn't follow the CICO or a calorie is a calorie hypothesis, so it's dismissed pretty quickly. Do different foods effect hormones differently, if the answer is yes, then investigation might help people broaden their nutritional horizons. I believe foods do effect hormones imo, cheers!
I'm not sure what you think CICO is, but we don't deny that hormones are real and can impact our wellbeing. When you say "hormones are the problem" are you saying that calories are irrelevant to our weight management?
Yes of course calories are important for weight management, that's why people count calories. Why people have to count calories is the question. From my observation and this may not include you, generally speaking CICO dictates that it's not what you eat but how much you eat, it repeated ad nauseum, that is what I meant.
Acknowledging that weight loss is created by a calorie deficit doesn't cancel out the obvious observation that for our general wellbeing and satiety, food choice matters. It's a common misunderstanding that people who manage their weight loss via calorie counting ignore everything else about food or encourage others to do the same. We don't.
The point is that if someone has a way of eating that fits their preferences and lifestyle and is meeting their nutritional needs and they want to lose weight, focusing on calories is the major adjustment to be made. If someone is dealing with a specific health issue or isn't already eating in a way that sustains their wellbeing, there may be other changes to make on top of that to address those issues. But for weight management, we talk about calories a lot because that is the common factor that everyone overweight has -- we all ate too many calories to maintain a healthy body weight.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Blue zones are easy. I live in one. My wife's grandma died at 110. Her hubby died at 101.
Nicoya Peninsula (Costa Rica): The Nicoyan diet is based around beans and corn tortillas. The people of this area regularly perform physical jobs into old age and have a sense of life purpose.
1. People in blue zones don't over eat. THIS IS KEY. They eat REAL food. In CR they eat rice and beans. meat. eggs, full fat dairy, some fruit and coffee.
2. They walk a lot and do jobs which require constant manual labor.
3. They are very religious. They live in rural or semi rural areas. They sleep well. They live stress free lives.
You left out rice, bananas, plantains, papaya, squash, pejibaje, and yams.
Carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs.
Not sure how that squares with your statement, "carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death"
If they're obese, don't get much or any exercise, ate mostly processed foods, basically consumed the SAD diet then they would more than likely end up like most countries that adopt the SAD diet.
Looks like those people might live a different lifestyle. the Okinawans have a saying....hara hachi bu which means only eat until your 80% full. Not sure but I suspect that may have a factory why they live longer and probably have a pretty good resistance to oreo cookies and Mickey D's.
That's the whole point, isn't it? The carbohydrates aren't the problem, it's the obesity, lack of activity, and an over-emphasis on non nutrient-dense foods (which I think is more to the point that just blaming "processing").
It's silly to blame carbohydrates for something that is really a collection of other behaviors and choices.
It's definitely complicated. Many cultures have eaten plenty of carbs without a problem. I've eaten mostly carbs (highest macronutrient) most of my life and I'm 68 for reference. My health markers are fine.
Carbs aren't the problem and I agree 100%. Hormones are the problem. Unfortunately that doesn't follow the CICO or a calorie is a calorie hypothesis, so it's dismissed pretty quickly. Do different foods effect hormones differently, if the answer is yes, then investigation might help people broaden their nutritional horizons. I believe foods do effect hormones imo, cheers!
I'm not sure what you think CICO is, but we don't deny that hormones are real and can impact our wellbeing. When you say "hormones are the problem" are you saying that calories are irrelevant to our weight management?
Yes of course calories are important for weight management, that's why people count calories. Why people have to count calories is the question. From my observation and this may not include you, generally speaking CICO dictates that it's not what you eat but how much you eat, it repeated ad nauseum, that is what I meant.
Acknowledging that weight loss is created by a calorie deficit doesn't cancel out the obvious observation that for our general wellbeing and satiety, food choice matters. It's a common misunderstanding that people who manage their weight loss via calorie counting ignore everything else about food or encourage others to do the same. We don't.
The point is that if someone has a way of eating that fits their preferences and lifestyle and is meeting their nutritional needs and they want to lose weight, focusing on calories is the major adjustment to be made. If someone is dealing with a specific health issue or isn't already eating in a way that sustains their wellbeing, there may be other changes to make on top of that to address those issues. But for weight management, we talk about calories a lot because that is the common factor that everyone overweight has -- we all ate too many calories to maintain a healthy body weight.
Oh, I get it and agree with your whole statement. Has counting calories worked, sure it has and people continue to do it. Its an industry now, hasn't always been that way, but it is now.
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neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Blue zones are easy. I live in one. My wife's grandma died at 110. Her hubby died at 101.
Nicoya Peninsula (Costa Rica): The Nicoyan diet is based around beans and corn tortillas. The people of this area regularly perform physical jobs into old age and have a sense of life purpose.
1. People in blue zones don't over eat. THIS IS KEY. They eat REAL food. In CR they eat rice and beans. meat. eggs, full fat dairy, some fruit and coffee.
2. They walk a lot and do jobs which require constant manual labor.
3. They are very religious. They live in rural or semi rural areas. They sleep well. They live stress free lives.
You left out rice, bananas, plantains, papaya, squash, pejibaje, and yams.
Carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs.
Not sure how that squares with your statement, "carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death"
If they're obese, don't get much or any exercise, ate mostly processed foods, basically consumed the SAD diet then they would more than likely end up like most countries that adopt the SAD diet.
Looks like those people might live a different lifestyle. the Okinawans have a saying....hara hachi bu which means only eat until your 80% full. Not sure but I suspect that may have a factory why they live longer and probably have a pretty good resistance to oreo cookies and Mickey D's.
That's the whole point, isn't it? The carbohydrates aren't the problem, it's the obesity, lack of activity, and an over-emphasis on non nutrient-dense foods (which I think is more to the point that just blaming "processing").
It's silly to blame carbohydrates for something that is really a collection of other behaviors and choices.
It's definitely complicated. Many cultures have eaten plenty of carbs without a problem. I've eaten mostly carbs (highest macronutrient) most of my life and I'm 68 for reference. My health markers are fine.
Carbs aren't the problem and I agree 100%. Hormones are the problem. Unfortunately that doesn't follow the CICO or a calorie is a calorie hypothesis, so it's dismissed pretty quickly. Do different foods effect hormones differently, if the answer is yes, then investigation might help people broaden their nutritional horizons. I believe foods do effect hormones imo, cheers!
I'm not sure what you think CICO is, but we don't deny that hormones are real and can impact our wellbeing. When you say "hormones are the problem" are you saying that calories are irrelevant to our weight management?
Yes of course calories are important for weight management, that's why people count calories. Why people have to count calories is the question. From my observation and this may not include you, generally speaking CICO dictates that it's not what you eat but how much you eat, it repeated ad nauseum, that is what I meant.
Acknowledging that weight loss is created by a calorie deficit doesn't cancel out the obvious observation that for our general wellbeing and satiety, food choice matters. It's a common misunderstanding that people who manage their weight loss via calorie counting ignore everything else about food or encourage others to do the same. We don't.
The point is that if someone has a way of eating that fits their preferences and lifestyle and is meeting their nutritional needs and they want to lose weight, focusing on calories is the major adjustment to be made. If someone is dealing with a specific health issue or isn't already eating in a way that sustains their wellbeing, there may be other changes to make on top of that to address those issues. But for weight management, we talk about calories a lot because that is the common factor that everyone overweight has -- we all ate too many calories to maintain a healthy body weight.
Oh, I get it and agree with your whole statement. Has counting calories worked, sure it has and people continue to do it. Its an industry now, hasn't always been that way, but it is now.
I really feel like it isn't though . . . there's way less money to be made from calorie counting than there is from trendier weight loss methods, which is why many plans are adding extra irrelevant details. For example, I recently looked at weight loss books at a local store and they had books on IF, keto, "peganism," and low carbohydrate diets. All of them promising that their specific set of rules would guarantee me weight loss. That's where the money is.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Blue zones are easy. I live in one. My wife's grandma died at 110. Her hubby died at 101.
Nicoya Peninsula (Costa Rica): The Nicoyan diet is based around beans and corn tortillas. The people of this area regularly perform physical jobs into old age and have a sense of life purpose.
1. People in blue zones don't over eat. THIS IS KEY. They eat REAL food. In CR they eat rice and beans. meat. eggs, full fat dairy, some fruit and coffee.
2. They walk a lot and do jobs which require constant manual labor.
3. They are very religious. They live in rural or semi rural areas. They sleep well. They live stress free lives.
You left out rice, bananas, plantains, papaya, squash, pejibaje, and yams.
Carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs.
Not sure how that squares with your statement, "carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death"
If they're obese, don't get much or any exercise, ate mostly processed foods, basically consumed the SAD diet then they would more than likely end up like most countries that adopt the SAD diet.
Looks like those people might live a different lifestyle. the Okinawans have a saying....hara hachi bu which means only eat until your 80% full. Not sure but I suspect that may have a factory why they live longer and probably have a pretty good resistance to oreo cookies and Mickey D's.
That's the whole point, isn't it? The carbohydrates aren't the problem, it's the obesity, lack of activity, and an over-emphasis on non nutrient-dense foods (which I think is more to the point that just blaming "processing").
It's silly to blame carbohydrates for something that is really a collection of other behaviors and choices.
It's definitely complicated. Many cultures have eaten plenty of carbs without a problem. I've eaten mostly carbs (highest macronutrient) most of my life and I'm 68 for reference. My health markers are fine.
Carbs aren't the problem and I agree 100%. Hormones are the problem. Unfortunately that doesn't follow the CICO or a calorie is a calorie hypothesis, so it's dismissed pretty quickly. Do different foods effect hormones differently, if the answer is yes, then investigation might help people broaden their nutritional horizons. I believe foods do effect hormones imo, cheers!
I'm not sure what you think CICO is, but we don't deny that hormones are real and can impact our wellbeing. When you say "hormones are the problem" are you saying that calories are irrelevant to our weight management?
Yes of course calories are important for weight management, that's why people count calories. Why people have to count calories is the question. From my observation and this may not include you, generally speaking CICO dictates that it's not what you eat but how much you eat, it repeated ad nauseum, that is what I meant.
Acknowledging that weight loss is created by a calorie deficit doesn't cancel out the obvious observation that for our general wellbeing and satiety, food choice matters. It's a common misunderstanding that people who manage their weight loss via calorie counting ignore everything else about food or encourage others to do the same. We don't.
The point is that if someone has a way of eating that fits their preferences and lifestyle and is meeting their nutritional needs and they want to lose weight, focusing on calories is the major adjustment to be made. If someone is dealing with a specific health issue or isn't already eating in a way that sustains their wellbeing, there may be other changes to make on top of that to address those issues. But for weight management, we talk about calories a lot because that is the common factor that everyone overweight has -- we all ate too many calories to maintain a healthy body weight.
Oh, I get it and agree with your whole statement. Has counting calories worked, sure it has and people continue to do it. Its an industry now, hasn't always been that way, but it is now.
I really feel like it isn't though . . . there's way less money to be made from calorie counting than there is from trendier weight loss methods, which is why many plans are adding extra irrelevant details. For example, I recently looked at weight loss books at a local store and they had books on IF, keto, "peganism," and low carbohydrate diets. All of them promising that their specific set of rules would guarantee me weight loss. That's where the money is.
Yeah for sure. Keto is the #1 searched diet followed by the IF, then paleo, then the dash. the problem with these diets is sustainability or any diet for that matter.
Calorie reduction is also a tough road for sustainability over the long haul for a number of reasons and it appears the 5% success rate is pretty abysmal and that number looks fairly well shared among researchers.
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neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Blue zones are easy. I live in one. My wife's grandma died at 110. Her hubby died at 101.
Nicoya Peninsula (Costa Rica): The Nicoyan diet is based around beans and corn tortillas. The people of this area regularly perform physical jobs into old age and have a sense of life purpose.
1. People in blue zones don't over eat. THIS IS KEY. They eat REAL food. In CR they eat rice and beans. meat. eggs, full fat dairy, some fruit and coffee.
2. They walk a lot and do jobs which require constant manual labor.
3. They are very religious. They live in rural or semi rural areas. They sleep well. They live stress free lives.
You left out rice, bananas, plantains, papaya, squash, pejibaje, and yams.
Carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs.
Not sure how that squares with your statement, "carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death"
If they're obese, don't get much or any exercise, ate mostly processed foods, basically consumed the SAD diet then they would more than likely end up like most countries that adopt the SAD diet.
Looks like those people might live a different lifestyle. the Okinawans have a saying....hara hachi bu which means only eat until your 80% full. Not sure but I suspect that may have a factory why they live longer and probably have a pretty good resistance to oreo cookies and Mickey D's.
That's the whole point, isn't it? The carbohydrates aren't the problem, it's the obesity, lack of activity, and an over-emphasis on non nutrient-dense foods (which I think is more to the point that just blaming "processing").
It's silly to blame carbohydrates for something that is really a collection of other behaviors and choices.
It's definitely complicated. Many cultures have eaten plenty of carbs without a problem. I've eaten mostly carbs (highest macronutrient) most of my life and I'm 68 for reference. My health markers are fine.
Carbs aren't the problem and I agree 100%. Hormones are the problem. Unfortunately that doesn't follow the CICO or a calorie is a calorie hypothesis, so it's dismissed pretty quickly. Do different foods effect hormones differently, if the answer is yes, then investigation might help people broaden their nutritional horizons. I believe foods do effect hormones imo, cheers!
I'm not sure what you think CICO is, but we don't deny that hormones are real and can impact our wellbeing. When you say "hormones are the problem" are you saying that calories are irrelevant to our weight management?
Yes of course calories are important for weight management, that's why people count calories. Why people have to count calories is the question. From my observation and this may not include you, generally speaking CICO dictates that it's not what you eat but how much you eat, it repeated ad nauseum, that is what I meant.
Acknowledging that weight loss is created by a calorie deficit doesn't cancel out the obvious observation that for our general wellbeing and satiety, food choice matters. It's a common misunderstanding that people who manage their weight loss via calorie counting ignore everything else about food or encourage others to do the same. We don't.
The point is that if someone has a way of eating that fits their preferences and lifestyle and is meeting their nutritional needs and they want to lose weight, focusing on calories is the major adjustment to be made. If someone is dealing with a specific health issue or isn't already eating in a way that sustains their wellbeing, there may be other changes to make on top of that to address those issues. But for weight management, we talk about calories a lot because that is the common factor that everyone overweight has -- we all ate too many calories to maintain a healthy body weight.
Oh, I get it and agree with your whole statement. Has counting calories worked, sure it has and people continue to do it. Its an industry now, hasn't always been that way, but it is now.
I really feel like it isn't though . . . there's way less money to be made from calorie counting than there is from trendier weight loss methods, which is why many plans are adding extra irrelevant details. For example, I recently looked at weight loss books at a local store and they had books on IF, keto, "peganism," and low carbohydrate diets. All of them promising that their specific set of rules would guarantee me weight loss. That's where the money is.
Yeah for sure. Keto is the #1 searched diet followed by the IF, then paleo, then the dash. the problem with these diets is sustainability or any diet for that matter.
Calorie reduction is also a tough road for sustainability over the long haul for a number of reasons and it appears the 5% success rate is pretty abysmal and that number looks fairly well shared among researchers.
In context, the long term success of any weight management method is pretty discouraging.4 -
Cut out all animal product. It’s not expensive or difficult. Don’t over think it. Way more options and resources out there than ever before. Find a few simple plant based recipes and try them and expand from there. Risotto with veggies and veggie broth; beans rice veggie burrito; grilled veggie wrap; salad with chickpeas, avocado, sunflower seeds, veggies; cereal and oat milk, stir fry with a little tofu; pasta with marinara and veggies; grilled portobello, pb&j... There are substitutes out there, but many are not that good. Stick with Whole Foods to start. Good Luck!3
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janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Blue zones are easy. I live in one. My wife's grandma died at 110. Her hubby died at 101.
Nicoya Peninsula (Costa Rica): The Nicoyan diet is based around beans and corn tortillas. The people of this area regularly perform physical jobs into old age and have a sense of life purpose.
1. People in blue zones don't over eat. THIS IS KEY. They eat REAL food. In CR they eat rice and beans. meat. eggs, full fat dairy, some fruit and coffee.
2. They walk a lot and do jobs which require constant manual labor.
3. They are very religious. They live in rural or semi rural areas. They sleep well. They live stress free lives.
You left out rice, bananas, plantains, papaya, squash, pejibaje, and yams.
Carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs carbs.
Not sure how that squares with your statement, "carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death"
If they're obese, don't get much or any exercise, ate mostly processed foods, basically consumed the SAD diet then they would more than likely end up like most countries that adopt the SAD diet.
Looks like those people might live a different lifestyle. the Okinawans have a saying....hara hachi bu which means only eat until your 80% full. Not sure but I suspect that may have a factory why they live longer and probably have a pretty good resistance to oreo cookies and Mickey D's.
That's the whole point, isn't it? The carbohydrates aren't the problem, it's the obesity, lack of activity, and an over-emphasis on non nutrient-dense foods (which I think is more to the point that just blaming "processing").
It's silly to blame carbohydrates for something that is really a collection of other behaviors and choices.
It's definitely complicated. Many cultures have eaten plenty of carbs without a problem. I've eaten mostly carbs (highest macronutrient) most of my life and I'm 68 for reference. My health markers are fine.
Carbs aren't the problem and I agree 100%. Hormones are the problem. Unfortunately that doesn't follow the CICO or a calorie is a calorie hypothesis, so it's dismissed pretty quickly. Do different foods effect hormones differently, if the answer is yes, then investigation might help people broaden their nutritional horizons. I believe foods do effect hormones imo, cheers!
I'm not sure what you think CICO is, but we don't deny that hormones are real and can impact our wellbeing. When you say "hormones are the problem" are you saying that calories are irrelevant to our weight management?
Yes of course calories are important for weight management, that's why people count calories. Why people have to count calories is the question. From my observation and this may not include you, generally speaking CICO dictates that it's not what you eat but how much you eat, it repeated ad nauseum, that is what I meant.
Acknowledging that weight loss is created by a calorie deficit doesn't cancel out the obvious observation that for our general wellbeing and satiety, food choice matters. It's a common misunderstanding that people who manage their weight loss via calorie counting ignore everything else about food or encourage others to do the same. We don't.
The point is that if someone has a way of eating that fits their preferences and lifestyle and is meeting their nutritional needs and they want to lose weight, focusing on calories is the major adjustment to be made. If someone is dealing with a specific health issue or isn't already eating in a way that sustains their wellbeing, there may be other changes to make on top of that to address those issues. But for weight management, we talk about calories a lot because that is the common factor that everyone overweight has -- we all ate too many calories to maintain a healthy body weight.
Oh, I get it and agree with your whole statement. Has counting calories worked, sure it has and people continue to do it. Its an industry now, hasn't always been that way, but it is now.
I really feel like it isn't though . . . there's way less money to be made from calorie counting than there is from trendier weight loss methods, which is why many plans are adding extra irrelevant details. For example, I recently looked at weight loss books at a local store and they had books on IF, keto, "peganism," and low carbohydrate diets. All of them promising that their specific set of rules would guarantee me weight loss. That's where the money is.
Yeah for sure. Keto is the #1 searched diet followed by the IF, then paleo, then the dash. the problem with these diets is sustainability or any diet for that matter.
Calorie reduction is also a tough road for sustainability over the long haul for a number of reasons and it appears the 5% success rate is pretty abysmal and that number looks fairly well shared among researchers.
In context, the long term success of any weight management method is pretty discouraging.
Yep, how many of us lost the extra weight, only to have it come back at some point? I made it through about 7 years of maintenance and thought I was one of the special snowflakes. Then a world-wide pandemic hits and a year later I'm up almost 25lbs and am now back to trying to lose weight. Very frustrating.
eta: as a side note-the last two years of maintenance, before I hit my wall, I was doing a very low carb/keto-ish woe. It was going well, until it wasn't. Realized through that experience that personally, it's just not a sustainable way of eating for me. And the rebound from the very restrictive way of eating was pretty brutal.1 -
Cut out all animal product. It’s not expensive or difficult. Don’t over think it. Way more options and resources out there than ever before. Find a few simple plant based recipes and try them and expand from there. Risotto with veggies and veggie broth; beans rice veggie burrito; grilled veggie wrap; salad with chickpeas, avocado, sunflower seeds, veggies; cereal and oat milk, stir fry with a little tofu; pasta with marinara and veggies; grilled portobello, pb&j... There are substitutes out there, but many are not that good. Stick with Whole Foods to start. Good Luck!
If this is directed at OP, I recommend you re-read all her posts here. It's hard to find anyone more pro-vegan than me, but there are some health circumstances here that make it more challenging than just "eat risotto, it's not hard!"
4
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