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Height-ism?

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  • VeryKatieVeryKatie Member Posts: 5,793 Member Member Posts: 5,793 Member
    zamphir66 wrote: »
    So, I had heard this was a thing, but had not encountered it myself until recently.

    A couple of months ago, I decided to dip my toe into the world of online dating. And it didn't take long to see women's profiles where height isn't just a preference, but an absolute (dis)qualifier ("Under 5'10", do not message"; "Must be tall"; "No one under 6' please" etc.).

    This strikes me as odd. I could never and would never write something like "BMI < 25 only." And yet, height is completely out of a person's control, whereas weight is not.

    I understand we all have preferences. I have preferences. But I like to think none of my preferences are absolute, binary statements. As in, I would never date this particular person because of this one characteristic. I might prefer a slim person, yet I married an overweight person -- because she was funny, smart, creative - basically she checked almost all my boxes, and I try to look at a person in their totality. To put it another way, I might be attracted to X, but that doesn't rule out Y or Z.

    In my own profile, I try to imply my preferences rather than lead with them ("looking for someone to go on runs with me..."). I think this is much better.

    And I assure you, I write all of this without bitterness. It's more a curiosity of why this form of discrimination is seemingly socially acceptable. Or at least, acceptable in the dimension of online dating.

    It goes both ways. Short guys and tall girls...

    Not true for everyone of course. But I've heard enough complaints.
    edited October 2020
  • threewinsthreewins Member Posts: 812 Member Member Posts: 812 Member
    I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,543 Member Member Posts: 8,543 Member
    threewins wrote: »
    I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.

    It hardly seems necessary for it to be a genetic predisposition in the vast majority of women, given that women on average are shorter than men.

    ETA: I'm almost smack dab exactly average height for a woman in the U.S. I rarely meet an adult male who is shorter than me.
    edited November 2020
  • ythannahythannah Member Posts: 3,490 Member Member Posts: 3,490 Member
    threewins wrote: »
    I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.

    I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?

    If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).

    I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.

    I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.

    So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member, Premium Posts: 24,538 Member Member, Premium Posts: 24,538 Member
    ythannah wrote: »
    threewins wrote: »
    I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.

    I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?

    If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).

    I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.

    I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.

    So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.

    I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.
  • psychod787psychod787 Member, Premium Posts: 3,882 Member Member, Premium Posts: 3,882 Member
    ythannah wrote: »
    threewins wrote: »
    I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.

    I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?

    If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).

    I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.

    I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.

    So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.

    I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.

    There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.

    ** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.
    edited November 2020
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member, Premium Posts: 24,538 Member Member, Premium Posts: 24,538 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    ythannah wrote: »
    threewins wrote: »
    I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.

    I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?

    If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).

    I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.

    I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.

    So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.

    I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.

    There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.

    ** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.

    I'm not arguing that sexual preferences don't exist, I just bristle at attributing them exclusively to women (why can't it also be the fact that men may also prefer women who are smaller than them?) and using terms like "programming," which seem awfully dehumanizing.
  • psychod787psychod787 Member, Premium Posts: 3,882 Member Member, Premium Posts: 3,882 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    ythannah wrote: »
    threewins wrote: »
    I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.

    I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?

    If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).

    I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.

    I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.

    So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.

    I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.

    There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.

    ** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.

    I'm not arguing that sexual preferences don't exist, I just bristle at attributing them exclusively to women (why can't it also be the fact that men may also prefer women who are smaller than them?) and using terms like "programming," which seem awfully dehumanizing.

    Programmed is a great word to use imho. What else is the brain but a giant super computer? It's making many calculations all at once and directing our actions. I think there are certain things a man is programmed to look at in a mate physically. The Paleolithic Venus statues are great examples. They are thought to be fertility totems. They are over exaggerations of things a man looks at in a potential mate. Large hips, buttocks, breast, and stomach. In the times of our ancient ancestors, a women who had these characteristics was more likely to be able to carry a child to term in times when food availability was uncertain. There are reasons why women may choose to exaggerate certain body features. Aka... push up bras, high heels, high waisted pants. They may think they are "doing it for themselves", but it's an old brain response. We have the old brain and the new brain. The neocortex is the high brain. It makes rational decision making selections. Then we have the old brain. Basically our subconscious. It drives us to do certain things that we rationalize with the new brain. When a man's eye shoots to a gal in tight pants rear end, it's an old brain response. Now that doe not excuse staring because that Is a rational choice. The initial look... all old brain. So, yes WE ARE programmed...
    edited November 2020
  • psychod787psychod787 Member, Premium Posts: 3,882 Member Member, Premium Posts: 3,882 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    ythannah wrote: »
    threewins wrote: »
    I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.

    I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?

    If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).

    I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.

    I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.

    So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.

    I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.

    There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.

    ** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.

    I'm not arguing that sexual preferences don't exist, I just bristle at attributing them exclusively to women (why can't it also be the fact that men may also prefer women who are smaller than them?) and using terms like "programming," which seem awfully dehumanizing.
    I will add that in a previous post I talked about tournament species vs pair bonding species. In a tournament species, we see much larger Males compared to females. Most likely dt size showing superior genetics and the ability to defend a groups of females. In pair bonding, both male and females are roughly the same size. Humans are an little different. We are mostly pair bonding, but still caring some of the traits of a tournament species particularly because men tend to be larger than women. So, is there a sexual selection for taller men. I think so. The biggest selection bias for pair bonding tends to be resources and child rearing capabilities mostly, there is an high rate of cuckolding in pair bonding that we dont see in tournament species. This could be females trying to make sure they are getting the best genetics for their offspring. Men might stray because of the part of us that are tournament species. Looking for maximum chance of our offspring living. This does not excuse adulatory. We do have rational brains.
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member, Premium Posts: 24,538 Member Member, Premium Posts: 24,538 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    ythannah wrote: »
    threewins wrote: »
    I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.

    I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?

    If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).

    I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.

    I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.

    So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.

    I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.

    There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.

    ** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.

    I'm not arguing that sexual preferences don't exist, I just bristle at attributing them exclusively to women (why can't it also be the fact that men may also prefer women who are smaller than them?) and using terms like "programming," which seem awfully dehumanizing.

    Programmed is a great word to use imho. What else is the brain but a giant super computer? It's making many calculations all at once and directing our actions. I think there are certain things a man is programmed to look at in a mate physically. The Paleolithic Venus statues are great examples. They are thought to be fertility totems. They are over exaggerations of things a man looks at in a potential mate. Large hips, buttocks, breast, and stomach. In the times of our ancient ancestors, a women who had these characteristics was more likely to be able to carry a child to term in times when food availability was uncertain. There are reasons why women may choose to exaggerate certain body features. Aka... push up bras, high heels, high waisted pants. They may think they are "doing it for themselves", but it's an old brain response. We have the old brain and the new brain. The neocortex is the high brain. It makes rational decision making selections. Then we have the old brain. Basically our subconscious. It drives us to do certain things that we rationalize with the new brain. When a man's eye shoots to a gal in tight pants rear end, it's an old brain response. Now that doe not excuse staring because that Is a rational choice. The initial look... all old brain. So, yes WE ARE programmed...

    I don't know that we're that far apart, I just think that "programmed" is a stronger word than I would use. I would go with "generally attracted to." And even within the context of saying that men *tend* to be attracted to certain features in women (at least the men who are attracted to women) and that women *tend* to be attracted to certain features in me (at least the women who are attracted to men), I think we can all think of people who are indifferent to relatively popular features. And we also have examples of how standards of attractiveness fluctuate over time, both of which are not what we would expect to see if we were literally programmed to find certain things attractive.
  • psychod787psychod787 Member, Premium Posts: 3,882 Member Member, Premium Posts: 3,882 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    ythannah wrote: »
    threewins wrote: »
    I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.

    I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?

    If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).

    I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.

    I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.

    So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.

    I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.

    There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.

    ** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.

    I'm not arguing that sexual preferences don't exist, I just bristle at attributing them exclusively to women (why can't it also be the fact that men may also prefer women who are smaller than them?) and using terms like "programming," which seem awfully dehumanizing.

    Programmed is a great word to use imho. What else is the brain but a giant super computer? It's making many calculations all at once and directing our actions. I think there are certain things a man is programmed to look at in a mate physically. The Paleolithic Venus statues are great examples. They are thought to be fertility totems. They are over exaggerations of things a man looks at in a potential mate. Large hips, buttocks, breast, and stomach. In the times of our ancient ancestors, a women who had these characteristics was more likely to be able to carry a child to term in times when food availability was uncertain. There are reasons why women may choose to exaggerate certain body features. Aka... push up bras, high heels, high waisted pants. They may think they are "doing it for themselves", but it's an old brain response. We have the old brain and the new brain. The neocortex is the high brain. It makes rational decision making selections. Then we have the old brain. Basically our subconscious. It drives us to do certain things that we rationalize with the new brain. When a man's eye shoots to a gal in tight pants rear end, it's an old brain response. Now that doe not excuse staring because that Is a rational choice. The initial look... all old brain. So, yes WE ARE programmed...

    I don't know that we're that far apart, I just think that "programmed" is a stronger word than I would use. I would go with "generally attracted to." And even within the context of saying that men *tend* to be attracted to certain features in women (at least the men who are attracted to women) and that women *tend* to be attracted to certain features in me (at least the women who are attracted to men), I think we can all think of people who are indifferent to relatively popular features. And we also have examples of how standards of attractiveness fluctuate over time, both of which are not what we would expect to see if we were literally programmed to find certain things attractive.

    Even if attractiveness "standards" change, we still see general associations of what men and women look at.
  • ythannahythannah Member Posts: 3,490 Member Member Posts: 3,490 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    ythannah wrote: »
    threewins wrote: »
    I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.

    I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?

    If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).

    I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.

    I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.

    So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.

    I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.

    There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.

    ** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.

    I'm not arguing that sexual preferences don't exist, I just bristle at attributing them exclusively to women (why can't it also be the fact that men may also prefer women who are smaller than them?) and using terms like "programming," which seem awfully dehumanizing.

    Programmed is a great word to use imho. What else is the brain but a giant super computer? It's making many calculations all at once and directing our actions. I think there are certain things a man is programmed to look at in a mate physically. The Paleolithic Venus statues are great examples. They are thought to be fertility totems. They are over exaggerations of things a man looks at in a potential mate. Large hips, buttocks, breast, and stomach. In the times of our ancient ancestors, a women who had these characteristics was more likely to be able to carry a child to term in times when food availability was uncertain. There are reasons why women may choose to exaggerate certain body features. Aka... push up bras, high heels, high waisted pants. They may think they are "doing it for themselves", but it's an old brain response. We have the old brain and the new brain. The neocortex is the high brain. It makes rational decision making selections. Then we have the old brain. Basically our subconscious. It drives us to do certain things that we rationalize with the new brain. When a man's eye shoots to a gal in tight pants rear end, it's an old brain response. Now that doe not excuse staring because that Is a rational choice. The initial look... all old brain. So, yes WE ARE programmed...

    I don't know that we're that far apart, I just think that "programmed" is a stronger word than I would use. I would go with "generally attracted to." And even within the context of saying that men *tend* to be attracted to certain features in women (at least the men who are attracted to women) and that women *tend* to be attracted to certain features in me (at least the women who are attracted to men), I think we can all think of people who are indifferent to relatively popular features. And we also have examples of how standards of attractiveness fluctuate over time, both of which are not what we would expect to see if we were literally programmed to find certain things attractive.

    These aren't things that are operating at the conscious attraction level of "oooh he/she is hot", these are mate selection criteria that are biologically driven -- produce lots of offspring with higher chances of survival.

    As far as I recall, the waist-hip ratio study was repeated 10? 20? years later and it was still the main criteria for female attractiveness but the ratio had decreased slightly. Again, this was not something identified by the subjects themselves, it was a variable derived from statistical analysis of the results. All the men did was choose between pictures.
  • T1DCarnivoreRunnerT1DCarnivoreRunner Member Posts: 11,154 Member Member Posts: 11,154 Member
    Yep, this has always bothered me as well. Weight is much easier to control, but I get a lot of hate if I say I want someone to be fit. However, it's perfectly acceptable for women to say they won't date a man under a specified height. Why the double standard? Either we all have physical preferences and that is alright or we are scum if we won't date someone that doesn't meet a particular physical standard. Why would it be one way for men and different for women?
  • KickassAmazon76KickassAmazon76 Member Posts: 2,481 Member Member Posts: 2,481 Member
    I'm following this discussion but am wondering...

    In these arguments, what is defined as tall?

    Is it taller the the other person, or is it taller than average but not necessarily taller than the other person?

    There is a difference between preferring someone who is taller than you (ie woman is 5' and partner is 5'2) vs preferring someone who is 6'3" regardless of how tall you are.
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member, Premium Posts: 24,538 Member Member, Premium Posts: 24,538 Member
    Yep, this has always bothered me as well. Weight is much easier to control, but I get a lot of hate if I say I want someone to be fit. However, it's perfectly acceptable for women to say they won't date a man under a specified height. Why the double standard? Either we all have physical preferences and that is alright or we are scum if we won't date someone that doesn't meet a particular physical standard. Why would it be one way for men and different for women?

    "Fit" as in performance level is something different than weight, but I think both could be legitimate preferences for a mate -- either for men or women. Is someone arguing that women should have the option to screen partners for height and weight, but men shouldn't? Or that nobody should be screening for weight? I'm trying to understand where the double standard comes in between men and women, because women are absolutely screening for weight in partners, both online and in real life situations.
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