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"Unrealistic" body goals
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I'm going to quote myself and comment below, in a way that's related but not direct to the point of the thread. I've been thinking about these issues as I read replies on the thread, and there's an aspect I find odd.
I agree that we're seeing more obese people over the last 40 years or so, but the idea that it was historically normal to be what (I think) we'd refer to as "lean" in threads like this . . . I think that's inaccurate.
People had less bodyfat. The defined muscularity was not common, nor was single digit body fat coipled with muscularity. A more wiry than defined build was probably more common among average people, even people with quite intense physical jobs. What we'd call "skinny" now was very common, even among demographics with fairly physical work (farmers are the ones I'm most familiar with).
Most of the handsome young male film idols of the 1940s-1960s aren't what we'd consider normal in that same kind of group today - much less shredded, generally, even at movie swimsuit time. To the extent there are photos of circus strongmen from the 1800s, most are fairly muscular, but still I think on average a bit short of what we'd consider normal in bodybuilders today (even sub-elite but serious ones) Further, many of those 1800s strongmen don't have extremely low bodyfat. Often, there is enough bodyfat that abs don't show, though the rest of the physique suggests that they're there under that bit of fat layer. There have been bodybuilders per se (appearance focused physique) for a very long time, but they've always been a small minority.
The appearance standards for "good looking fit normal guy" are more defined and muscular now/recently, than has been true over my lifetime (b. 1955). Am I saying the standards are unrealistic? No, I'm saying that they've changed, noticably, toward low bodyfat and defined muscularity.
Usually, the "obesity epidemic" is said to have begun somewhere around the 1980s. (I was 25 in 1980, for context, so my "noticing bodies" hormones had been in the "on" position for over a decade at that point.)
Without doing a big bundle of reseach, I think the obesity incidence trend and the muscularity/toned aspiration "look" have risen in parallel, loosely speaking. Looking at some photos of "good looking" aspirational celebrity appearance examples over the years, the aspirational appearance (in popular culture) seems to have moved toward defined muscularity for men, and "toned" appearance for women (in a way that would've been seen as undesirably muscular in say, 1970).
I suspect the fitness level inthe general population may've been on a somewhat similar track to the obesity trend. That's more complicated, though, so a more tentative thought. For sure, the average person's daily life has gotten much less active (incidental life activity) over those decades, but intentional exercise seems much more popular.
OTOH, while gyms and the like are all over the place now compared to then, the people I see in mine (and judging from multi-aged friends' routines), many people's exercise routine is fairly mild (that's not a criticism), maybe kind of pro forma. It also seems like - around here - hobby type activities with a strong physical component are attracting fewer people, especially younger people. (I'm talking about things like commonness of dancing as a lifel-long hobby, how many people seem to do things like canoeing often or belong to clubs for that sort of thing, the size of adult sports leagues of various sorts around here, etc.). Cycling for transportation is more popular, though, I think. All of this fitness bit is observational on my side, though, so quite likely biased by where and who I am.
This is an imperfect kind of correlation, I'm sure; and there are certainly individual counter-examples along the way (celebrities seen as physically desirable who don't fit that muscular/toned mold). But I think there is a loose cooincidence between those trends, of aspirational appearance becoming more fit/muscular, even as the population has become on average more overweight and less active.
This probably has some implications for what people see as realistic, or not so much, but could cut either/both ways.2 -
My sister is morbidly obese, has been that way for most of her life and will probably stay that way. I don't think she lacks "discipline" or whatever that was stated here. She went to school for a very long time, got a good solid job. Wakes up every morning and rarely miss a day of work.
I think it's a case of people being disciplined in other areas and not putting as much efforts in their fitness and health. I don't know if that makes sense?
Because I can say she's probably more disciplined and organized than me but in other areas of her life.
Interesting observiation. I think that's absolutely common.
I found Novus's explanation of how it applied to him very interesting, too, because it's quite different from what I'd say of myself. Personally, I've found that I can *focus* on a limited number of dynamic areas. There was a time when it was mostly career and marriage. Now retired and widowed, those aren't in the picture. My focus on finances have switched on and off over the years, but in a mode that put decent habits in place for the unfocused times, so that's worked out OK (probably looks "disciplined and organized" from the outside, but really, really isn't).
Cancer (and the physical depletion that came with treatment) increased my focus on activity and fitness. A decade or so later, I finally acknowledged (echo of Novus here) that health issue such as my blood lips/blood pressure were not responding sufficiently to fitness alone, and I turned more focus to weight management.
I think for some people like me, there's a question of how many balls we can keep in the air at one time, regarding things that *actively* require attention, discipline, and organization (vs. can just run on autopilot-type habits). Denial is a factor, but possibly having a limited capacity for focus is another.
There are certainly very successful peole who can (seemingly) achieve discipline, organization, and actual improvement of their behavior/habits in many areas at once . . . but I don't think that type of person is super common.
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My sister is morbidly obese, has been that way for most of her life and will probably stay that way. I don't think she lacks "discipline" or whatever that was stated here. She went to school for a very long time, got a good solid job. Wakes up every morning and rarely miss a day of work.
I think it's a case of people being disciplined in other areas and not putting as much efforts in their fitness and health. I don't know if that makes sense?
Because I can say she's probably more disciplined and organized than me but in other areas of her life.
Interesting observiation. I think that's absolutely common.
I found Novus's explanation of how it applied to him very interesting, too, because it's quite different from what I'd say of myself. Personally, I've found that I can *focus* on a limited number of dynamic areas. There was a time when it was mostly career and marriage. Now retired and widowed, those aren't in the picture. My focus on finances have switched on and off over the years, but in a mode that put decent habits in place for the unfocused times, so that's worked out OK (probably looks "disciplined and organized" from the outside, but really, really isn't).
Cancer (and the physical depletion that came with treatment) increased my focus on activity and fitness. A decade or so later, I finally acknowledged (echo of Novus here) that health issue such as my blood lips/blood pressure were not responding sufficiently to fitness alone, and I turned more focus to weight management.
I think for some people like me, there's a question of how many balls we can keep in the air at one time, regarding things that *actively* require attention, discipline, and organization (vs. can just run on autopilot-type habits). Denial is a factor, but possibly having a limited capacity for focus is another.
There are certainly very successful peole who can (seemingly) achieve discipline, organization, and actual improvement of their behavior/habits in many areas at once . . . but I don't think that type of person is super common.
I am not one of the super people. Trust me. I just reprioritized things. One of the things that is not immediately easy for a self employed person is to fire B and C clients. These are one that take as much, sometimes more, time than A clients but are less profitable and/or they do not pay timely.
Of course this year business has sucked and I am not 100 percent sure what happens next. I might be happy with some B and C clients right now. lol3 -
My sister is morbidly obese, has been that way for most of her life and will probably stay that way. I don't think she lacks "discipline" or whatever that was stated here. She went to school for a very long time, got a good solid job. Wakes up every morning and rarely miss a day of work.
I think it's a case of people being disciplined in other areas and not putting as much efforts in their fitness and health. I don't know if that makes sense?
Because I can say she's probably more disciplined and organized than me but in other areas of her life.
In my experience, people who self-sabotage often are highly functional in many areas of their life, but there are one or two things they have some sort of mental block or issue to addressing with the same habits of consistency or self-discipline they're able to harness to help accomplish goals in different areas of their lives.
I'm absolutely in this category -- I've had times in my life where multiple areas of my life looked great and one or two were just disaster areas. If you just looked at those areas, you'd conclude that I couldn't plan or had no discipline.
It's gotten better now that I'm older and have done some self-work, but it's still takes more focus and planning for me to make time for household chores than it is for me to, say, knock out projects for work.
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My sister is morbidly obese, has been that way for most of her life and will probably stay that way. I don't think she lacks "discipline" or whatever that was stated here. She went to school for a very long time, got a good solid job. Wakes up every morning and rarely miss a day of work.
I think it's a case of people being disciplined in other areas and not putting as much efforts in their fitness and health. I don't know if that makes sense?
Because I can say she's probably more disciplined and organized than me but in other areas of her life.
Interesting observiation. I think that's absolutely common.
I found Novus's explanation of how it applied to him very interesting, too, because it's quite different from what I'd say of myself. Personally, I've found that I can *focus* on a limited number of dynamic areas. There was a time when it was mostly career and marriage. Now retired and widowed, those aren't in the picture. My focus on finances have switched on and off over the years, but in a mode that put decent habits in place for the unfocused times, so that's worked out OK (probably looks "disciplined and organized" from the outside, but really, really isn't).
Cancer (and the physical depletion that came with treatment) increased my focus on activity and fitness. A decade or so later, I finally acknowledged (echo of Novus here) that health issue such as my blood lips/blood pressure were not responding sufficiently to fitness alone, and I turned more focus to weight management.
I think for some people like me, there's a question of how many balls we can keep in the air at one time, regarding things that *actively* require attention, discipline, and organization (vs. can just run on autopilot-type habits). Denial is a factor, but possibly having a limited capacity for focus is another.
There are certainly very successful peole who can (seemingly) achieve discipline, organization, and actual improvement of their behavior/habits in many areas at once . . . but I don't think that type of person is super common.
I am not one of the super people. Trust me. I just reprioritized things. One of the things that is not immediately easy for a self employed person is to fire B and C clients. These are one that take as much, sometimes more, time than A clients but are less profitable and/or they do not pay timely.
Of course this year business has sucked and I am not 100 percent sure what happens next. I might be happy with some B and C clients right now. lol
I feel like @Mellouk89 has a point. There have been times in my life when exercise and appearance were just not priorities. It takes a lot of time and effort to procure decent meals and work out, compared to days past when crunch time has meant trying to get in a pizza order before Dominos closes at 1 am then working 24 hrs without a break for a shower. Not a lot of time for long runs, shopping, or food prep.
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IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »nitalieben wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I see that you did reply now, which is good. (I'm somewhat flummoxed that, since you obviously know *how* to reach that goal, and with what you consider not to be optimum genetic potential, that you didn't then or now have "here's how I did it and how long it took" comments. I think that strongly relevant fairly detailed personal accounts are often quite helpful.)
But I'm really quoting to say this: I'd encourage you, when you have profoundly relevant experience, to post, even if someone's looking for some combo of advice, encouragement, and friends. I frequently do that on posts by older women who are concerned about the effects of aging on weight loss/fitness ambitions, whom I think I can advise or encourage, but I just say "I accept friend requests, but am a cr*p friend who rarely posts in that part of MFP" or something like that.
Share your experience to help (advise) or encourage people. That would be *great*.
Balanced advice happens on threads when people with experience/knowledge post and *create* balance.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »It's hard to blame someone for having unrealistic body goals. The whole diet and fitness culture is filled with liars. Let's take 200 pics and post the best we have, not the other 199 that looked like crap. Let's brag about our sub 10% body fat (if it really is, most lie about their body fat as if it matters) and leave out that we are most likely on gear. Let's bask in the glory of our flat stomach but leave out that we had a tummy tuck but just tell people how we work out like crazy.
Here is an example. You look at a magazine of a celebrity who got in killer shape for a movie. Much like a body builder or fitness competitor leading up to a competition so they can peak at the right moment. For them it's the stage, for the actor it's for filming. The magazine tells us what the actor did, of course leaving out the stuff they don't want to admit (steroids etc...). Now your average person reads this, wants to look like this and proceeds to make a lifestyle out of what a celebrity did for say 12 weeks leading up to filming. It's a false narrative from the very beginning...
I know what you mean, but even if the IG picture is filtered and whatever, they STILL accomplished a physique that was able to be improved slightly via filters/lighting/flexing that resulted in the picture that was posted. Its really no different than women with makeup; they're accentuating what already exists. So, I feel like if you arm yourself with the realization that you're not going to wake up and see that IG picture in the mirror, but with a lot of work you CAN wake up with a physique that can look like it with that filter, it's the same thing. People will post flexed/unflexed pictures and if they were posted separately I feel a lot of people would call the unflexed realistic and the flexed unrealistic when they're in fact the same exact physique. Heck, my PP is about 3 weeks pre comp with a pump and good lighting so it's admittedly optimized, but it's real and therefore realistic. I'm struggling with articulating this, I hope it makes sense!
I dunno, I'm a fan of dreaming big and when I see others doing that, it kills me to see anyone raining on that. Granted, that's my perspective and others may see what I view as "rain" to be guidance or a reality check.
I get that you may be less attuned to this as a male, but I think you may not have a clear view of just how manipulated some of the images of female "influencers" are, by photoshop and the like. And, yes, people believe them.
In the transparent cases, "booty gainz" and narrow waists are curiously accompanied by backgrounds where doorframes also bend in and out, hourglass style. But there are others who are clearly equally manipulated images, but either better at Photoshop or smart enough to pose with a solid-color plain background to hide the machinations.
From the standpoint of either Photoshop or genetics, it's not unusual to see misunderstandings about the slight abdominal swell (not "pooch" or belly fat) that most women have because of having a uterus and related female plumbing. It's not throwing cold water in a mean way to point out that most women do have that shape (not flattyFlatFLAT) even when very lean.
(There's a whole thread here about that. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10689837/does-this-uterus-make-my-stomach-look-fat/p1. The thread goes beyond that to show a range of women who've gone various ways along the route to minimal abdominal fat, under various conditions, but the whole point if you read the OP was the frequency of posts that have *actually unrealistic* expectations, at least for the overwhelming majority of us women's genetics. Keep in mind that we've seen photos from some of these women who think they have "belly fat" when it's pretty clear that they just have a normal, healthy shape, often with minimal/no belly fat at all. They've just been trained by the worst influencers to think normal shapes are Not Good.)IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I think your contribution to that thread was great. Mostly I saw in the thread a mix of some discouragement at the beginning, but mostly people calling him on the idea that he needs others to give him the motivation and hard truths that what he needs is discipline and a plan and that it may take a while, plus a couple of people who had achieved the goal and found it not worth the effort (or not good for them). I find the discipline-related posts, as well as those from people with experience, even if not positive, to be helpful contributions to the thread.
If I had the experience to contribute to a thread like that (which I do not), I'd probably have said that it's a great goal, but he doesn't yet know how his body will look at feel at different BF%s, so rather than making sub 9% the one successful result, why not get started and have a plan, but also have some intermediate goals and take stock of how he looks and feels at different %ages. I don't think that would be discouraging. I also would suggest (if there were experienced people on the thread) that if he wants to talk through his plan here, it might be a great way to get feedback on a plan and timetable.
Just a mild observation: I see that to be true on that thread, because I know some of the posters' history from other threads. For someone new here, since that history wasn't recounted, but just the negative end points, it may've come across as purely theoretical negativity, especially given the now-current profile pics or lack thereof.
@IronIsMyTherapy, I think it's fine, on someone else's thread, to ask "from what basis do you say that, as my experience has been different". It may help you get to know regular posters (to the good or bad 😆), and it will help the OP know who is giving experience-based advice (or truly science-based though theoretical advice), vs. just typing less knowledgeable opinions.janejellyroll wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.
And for the record, I do think it's helpful to point out in specific situations where someone isn't being realistic.
I think of @AnnPT77 and her amazing "arms" post. I spent so much time hating my arms. The problem was never my arms. It was my goals!
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
My approach to giving advice is kind of jaded. I'm super passionate about helping people and have spent many hours both online and in person giving advice to only have it ignored (maybe bc I've never charged for it). Once, a lady I'd seen in the gym a lot but never spoken to interrupted me mid deadlift session and asked for help with her diet. I spent about 30 minutes right then and there walking her through macros, estimating TDEE, blah blah to have her finish off with "maybe I'll just try Isagenix again..." Welp, thanks for ruining what was a great workout. I used to make meal and workout plans for free, often to the same end. Now when people ask me for help, I say "meet me at the gym at 4AM tomorrow" as a qualifier. Again, jaded view but it seems about 1 of 10 people that ask for advice actually act on it. I HAVE had those that do and dang are they rewarding! But yeah, I don't like giving unsolicited advice, and when it IS solicited, I like to get a feel of commitment before investing a ton of time.
I can understand feeling that way. And it's harder to scale a response (i.e., decide how much time to invest) when in a formum vs. in person, since we don't get the subtle feedback from things like facial expressions to know when we're wasting our time.
On the flip side of that, in a forum, there's the potential that we're giving information to people who are reading but not posting. That's a bit of a crapshoot, admittedly, but I'm quite confident it happens. (I've posted the arm rant that Jane's referring to so many flipping times that I'm bleeping sick of doing it. Often, I'm just using search to find a previous response, and bracketing the main point with some small thread-specific stuff. I believe Jane has mentioned before that she found it helpful, but I'm periodically surprised by positive references to it in threads from women who I didn't even realize had seen it.)
While I understand why you'd not take the time to formulate a detailed advice post (totally legit), it's still hard for me to understand why you'd post in critique of people who did respond in that case (and perhaps other cases not linked). One of the things that I've come to believe about volunteer organizations of all sorts (of which MFP is a small case), is that if I'm not putting in the work to make the volunteer functions run, I don't have much firm ground to stand on, when criticizing how others who do put in the work go about doing it.
I don't mean to be harsh here, just frank. As I said earlier in the thread, I think there's value in occasional discussions like this one, especially now that we have something specific to focus on.
I guess I dont see warning someone of how much work is required to do something as helpful, so I view it as negative. Which obviously varies person to person. If someone told me it would take me over 10 years to accomplish my goal, that probably would've been so daunting I wouldn't have tried. My approach is to get them to take one step, then another. So yes, I can see how people may not view the comments as negatively as I do but having climbed that mountain, if anyone says they also want to climb it, I'd never say "do you realize how high it is? How cold it gets? How many dont make it?" but rather "Awesome! Get your boots on!". I think those reality checks can be as discouraging as informative so personally I'd be hesitant to put them out there. I realize that's not everyones perspective which is why I started this discussion. I'm not right, but I'd argue neither are the people that disagree. I believe the answer is dependant on a lot of factors. Hopefully that makes sense lol.
I believe it is or could be helpful. You can make informed decisions based off the information you're offered. You can identify common pitfalls and avoid them. You can review successes and try to find what worked in them. You can form realistic expectations of how long it could take to accomplish your goal and decide whether you're up for it.
Imagine someone only slightly overweight wanting to lose 10kgs in two weeks. Or a new lifter " I want to bench press 325 in a week's time!"
"Awesome, get your boots on?" or "It would be risky to cut calories to such an extent to attempt such a huge loss in such a short space of time." / "It would be better to learn proper form first to avoid injury".
Where do you draw the line? Do you let someone jeopardize their health because you wouldn't want to discourage them?
An informed decision would be more likely to yield positive results than jumping head first while having a crowd cheering on the sideline for potentially damaging actions.
Sure, this isn't a black or white scenario. But on these forums few of us are fortunate enough to ever get to know someone else so well that we could predict what would motivate or demotivate them.
As such, most opt to share personal experiences or relevant information and merely hope the person on the receiving end can use it as tools to assist on their journey.
Of course. I'm referring to an overall goal that has already been accomplished by thousands of people, not an extreme outlier. Has it been accomplished by a ton of people and barring some physical condition, can be accomplished through consistency and effort? That's exactly where I draw the line.
I think it’s important to note that roughly 5% of the people who lose weight actually keep it off. I’m not sure it’s realistic to assume that these goals have been achieved with lasting success by vast numbers of people.
That doesn’t make them unachievable, but also doesn’t make them so common that it’s unreasonable to consider them a significant challenge or possibly even unlikely.
I read the thread you linked earlier and found no negative vibes. I saw people referencing the amount of work required (fair and valid), that “good” genes could make the process a bit easier (also fair and valid) and some of the pitfalls. I read all of this as setting very realistic expectations.
I wish that were more the norm. “You got this!” And “go for it” and “the sky’s the limit” and “just keep working - you’ll get there” is advice that I found very unhelpful. For myself (approx 9 years in to my work), having no reasonable expectation of timeframe or what would be required led me to feel like I was failing when I was actually doing exactly exactly the best things. Because I had no idea of reasonable expectations, I felt like my goals were not achievable and that I was destined to not achieve them.
So I found the linked thread refreshing. The biggest battle in this entire process of self-improvement is setting appropriate goals/expectations. I don’t mean end goals-I mean what can I expect to achieve this month? What kind of progress can I make in a year? It I want to do ____, is it reasonable to believe that I can do that within 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? What do I need to do to make that happen? What is the time commitment? What changes will I need to make to my family life or work/life/fun balance to make that happen? How will an inability to make some or those changes extend the time to reach my goal? Or will it prevent me from reaching my goal until such time as I’m able to make whatever change?
Reasonable expectations doesn’t mean an unreasonable end goal. It means setting the best stage for success on the way there.
But that’s my lens.
Yours is obviously different.11 -
The only unrealistic fitness goals are the Hollywood transformations which require steroids and other drugs to achieve that kind of body in that time frame or at that age.
Stuff like a flat stomach or low body fat % is just a matter of dieting; you don't even need to workout.
Huge problem is how lacking proper nutrition education is. Not enough people seem to understand that losing weight is Calories in Vs. Calories Out. Or that you will eventually lose fat everywhere, but you can't decide where to lose fat first. Instead, it's a constant stream of how some people are just fat through no fault of their own and there's nothing they can do about it.
My go-to line when someone says that some people can't lose weight is "no one in the holocaust was fat."5 -
And for a lot of people, fat is not just about a lack of discipline or an unwillingness to face something. I am glad I have a good familiarity with therapy and therapeutic techniques when I started this, because as I dropped pounds, some mental health stuff definitely came up. That has been the hard part. Not drinking enough or sticking with my calorie budget. I stuffed a lot of things down and piled food on top of them over the years. I can't blame people for not feeling that they're not in a place where they can unpack all that. I wasn't until I left my husband. I couldn't have done it while married to him. I couldn't have done it living with my mother. I can do it now, and I am. I give myself a pass for my first 32 years of being overweight. But it's enough hard work that I'm only wanting to do this once. So I don't intend to regain this weight once I get it off. (grin)8
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I had this thought while swimming today. Weight is not like height. I remember being in high school on the varsity basketball team and I couldn't dunk I was so close I could dunk a volley ball but not a basketball and at 6' foot I thought man if I was 6' 1" or 6'3" max the world would be my oyster, well unlike height which we can not control, weight we can. We absolutely can. If we were to drop 100 obese individuals on a deserted island with limited resources to where they would be forced (yes forced) to only eat enough to survive, it is a matter of fact that when we picked them up a month later or a year later every single one of them would have lost weight. So no miracles needed, it is all about input vs output. However in the United States especially everything is a disease or a condition, and seldom do we hold people accountable for their actions, I recently read somewhere about someone's mom who's gotten injured once again as a nurse trying to lift an overweight patient again! I know from personal observations that people who don't lie to themselves succeed, one girl in particular was over 200 pounds and called herself fat, not over weight, not husky, not body positive, but fat, she has now lost over 60 pounds over the last two years, and is still looking to improve.5
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IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I see that you did reply now, which is good. (I'm somewhat flummoxed that, since you obviously know *how* to reach that goal, and with what you consider not to be optimum genetic potential, that you didn't then or now have "here's how I did it and how long it took" comments. I think that strongly relevant fairly detailed personal accounts are often quite helpful.)
But I'm really quoting to say this: I'd encourage you, when you have profoundly relevant experience, to post, even if someone's looking for some combo of advice, encouragement, and friends. I frequently do that on posts by older women who are concerned about the effects of aging on weight loss/fitness ambitions, whom I think I can advise or encourage, but I just say "I accept friend requests, but am a cr*p friend who rarely posts in that part of MFP" or something like that.
Share your experience to help (advise) or encourage people. That would be *great*.
Balanced advice happens on threads when people with experience/knowledge post and *create* balance.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »It's hard to blame someone for having unrealistic body goals. The whole diet and fitness culture is filled with liars. Let's take 200 pics and post the best we have, not the other 199 that looked like crap. Let's brag about our sub 10% body fat (if it really is, most lie about their body fat as if it matters) and leave out that we are most likely on gear. Let's bask in the glory of our flat stomach but leave out that we had a tummy tuck but just tell people how we work out like crazy.
Here is an example. You look at a magazine of a celebrity who got in killer shape for a movie. Much like a body builder or fitness competitor leading up to a competition so they can peak at the right moment. For them it's the stage, for the actor it's for filming. The magazine tells us what the actor did, of course leaving out the stuff they don't want to admit (steroids etc...). Now your average person reads this, wants to look like this and proceeds to make a lifestyle out of what a celebrity did for say 12 weeks leading up to filming. It's a false narrative from the very beginning...
I know what you mean, but even if the IG picture is filtered and whatever, they STILL accomplished a physique that was able to be improved slightly via filters/lighting/flexing that resulted in the picture that was posted. Its really no different than women with makeup; they're accentuating what already exists. So, I feel like if you arm yourself with the realization that you're not going to wake up and see that IG picture in the mirror, but with a lot of work you CAN wake up with a physique that can look like it with that filter, it's the same thing. People will post flexed/unflexed pictures and if they were posted separately I feel a lot of people would call the unflexed realistic and the flexed unrealistic when they're in fact the same exact physique. Heck, my PP is about 3 weeks pre comp with a pump and good lighting so it's admittedly optimized, but it's real and therefore realistic. I'm struggling with articulating this, I hope it makes sense!
I dunno, I'm a fan of dreaming big and when I see others doing that, it kills me to see anyone raining on that. Granted, that's my perspective and others may see what I view as "rain" to be guidance or a reality check.
I get that you may be less attuned to this as a male, but I think you may not have a clear view of just how manipulated some of the images of female "influencers" are, by photoshop and the like. And, yes, people believe them.
In the transparent cases, "booty gainz" and narrow waists are curiously accompanied by backgrounds where doorframes also bend in and out, hourglass style. But there are others who are clearly equally manipulated images, but either better at Photoshop or smart enough to pose with a solid-color plain background to hide the machinations.
From the standpoint of either Photoshop or genetics, it's not unusual to see misunderstandings about the slight abdominal swell (not "pooch" or belly fat) that most women have because of having a uterus and related female plumbing. It's not throwing cold water in a mean way to point out that most women do have that shape (not flattyFlatFLAT) even when very lean.
(There's a whole thread here about that. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10689837/does-this-uterus-make-my-stomach-look-fat/p1. The thread goes beyond that to show a range of women who've gone various ways along the route to minimal abdominal fat, under various conditions, but the whole point if you read the OP was the frequency of posts that have *actually unrealistic* expectations, at least for the overwhelming majority of us women's genetics. Keep in mind that we've seen photos from some of these women who think they have "belly fat" when it's pretty clear that they just have a normal, healthy shape, often with minimal/no belly fat at all. They've just been trained by the worst influencers to think normal shapes are Not Good.)IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I think your contribution to that thread was great. Mostly I saw in the thread a mix of some discouragement at the beginning, but mostly people calling him on the idea that he needs others to give him the motivation and hard truths that what he needs is discipline and a plan and that it may take a while, plus a couple of people who had achieved the goal and found it not worth the effort (or not good for them). I find the discipline-related posts, as well as those from people with experience, even if not positive, to be helpful contributions to the thread.
If I had the experience to contribute to a thread like that (which I do not), I'd probably have said that it's a great goal, but he doesn't yet know how his body will look at feel at different BF%s, so rather than making sub 9% the one successful result, why not get started and have a plan, but also have some intermediate goals and take stock of how he looks and feels at different %ages. I don't think that would be discouraging. I also would suggest (if there were experienced people on the thread) that if he wants to talk through his plan here, it might be a great way to get feedback on a plan and timetable.
Just a mild observation: I see that to be true on that thread, because I know some of the posters' history from other threads. For someone new here, since that history wasn't recounted, but just the negative end points, it may've come across as purely theoretical negativity, especially given the now-current profile pics or lack thereof.
@IronIsMyTherapy, I think it's fine, on someone else's thread, to ask "from what basis do you say that, as my experience has been different". It may help you get to know regular posters (to the good or bad 😆), and it will help the OP know who is giving experience-based advice (or truly science-based though theoretical advice), vs. just typing less knowledgeable opinions.janejellyroll wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.
And for the record, I do think it's helpful to point out in specific situations where someone isn't being realistic.
I think of @AnnPT77 and her amazing "arms" post. I spent so much time hating my arms. The problem was never my arms. It was my goals!
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
My approach to giving advice is kind of jaded. I'm super passionate about helping people and have spent many hours both online and in person giving advice to only have it ignored (maybe bc I've never charged for it). Once, a lady I'd seen in the gym a lot but never spoken to interrupted me mid deadlift session and asked for help with her diet. I spent about 30 minutes right then and there walking her through macros, estimating TDEE, blah blah to have her finish off with "maybe I'll just try Isagenix again..." Welp, thanks for ruining what was a great workout. I used to make meal and workout plans for free, often to the same end. Now when people ask me for help, I say "meet me at the gym at 4AM tomorrow" as a qualifier. Again, jaded view but it seems about 1 of 10 people that ask for advice actually act on it. I HAVE had those that do and dang are they rewarding! But yeah, I don't like giving unsolicited advice, and when it IS solicited, I like to get a feel of commitment before investing a ton of time.snowflake954 wrote: »This post of yours kept bothering me and I finally figured out why. You say that you've helped people in the past and have gotten burned, disappointed, because they gave up and you invested time and effort in them. This is a legitimate complaint. But, I don't understand your calling out posters that do do vetting before helping. You should have done it and could have avoided some of the situations that you described. Your defense now is to not give a realistic comment--just "Rah-rah!! Go for it!" Sorry, but being realistic is not the same as discouraging. Because you have managed to arrive where many would like to go, what you say can carry more weight. I think you should use that influence wisely.
I definitely pre-vet in other types of threads, the "HELP! IM EATING 1200 CALORIES AND I CAN'T LOSE WEIGHT" threads. I want the poster to make their diary public - I'm not willing to play 20 questions dragging information out of them that I can see at a glance in their food and exercise diaries. If they're not willing to do that for me, I'm not willing to invest time in them.
I like the "meet me at the gym at 4 AM" pre-vetting. This will certainly sort out those who are serious about wanting help!8 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
That poster was so unmotivated that in the last 6 weeks he hasn't come back to his thread.
I stand by my comment:kshama2001 wrote: »You may find creating discipline and habits more useful than the search for motivation.6 -
I am being discouraged from trying to lose at least 30 lbs in 4-5 months. I'm being told I can't do it bc they don't think it's possible. I already watch what I eat and exercise and im trying to add more fiber and protein. I've done it before so I know I can. Their excuse is bc now I've been diagnosed with Endo what they don't know is it is BC of that that I want to lose weight. I dont want this to define me and keep me from what I have always loved to do.2
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I am being discouraged from trying to lose at least 30 lbs in 4-5 months. I'm being told I can't do it bc they don't think it's possible. I already watch what I eat and exercise and im trying to add more fiber and protein. I've done it before so I know I can. Their excuse is bc now I've been diagnosed with Endo what they don't know is it is BC of that that I want to lose weight. I dont want this to define me and keep me from what I have always loved to do.
May I ask why you need to lose the weight in 4-5 months? Why the deadline (always a disaster)?5 -
I am being discouraged from trying to lose at least 30 lbs in 4-5 months. I'm being told I can't do it bc they don't think it's possible. I already watch what I eat and exercise and im trying to add more fiber and protein. I've done it before so I know I can. Their excuse is bc now I've been diagnosed with Endo what they don't know is it is BC of that that I want to lose weight. I dont want this to define me and keep me from what I have always loved to do.
I have no doubt that it's possible. I have doubts that it's healthy, for most people - unless under close medical supervision for nutritional adequacy or health complications throughout. Some people are so very obese that the obesity itself creates more health risk than the risk of an aggressively fast weight loss: Perhaps that's your scenario, but that's a question for your doctor, not us. For those not in that situation, a goal being realistic is not the only measure of whether it's a positive goal.
This site being open to the public, we're free to offer our viewpoints, constrained by the terms of service to which we agreed. (BTW: The terms of service prohibit discussion of very low calorie diets . . . . )4 -
I am being discouraged from trying to lose at least 30 lbs in 4-5 months. I'm being told I can't do it bc they don't think it's possible. I already watch what I eat and exercise and im trying to add more fiber and protein. I've done it before so I know I can. Their excuse is bc now I've been diagnosed with Endo what they don't know is it is BC of that that I want to lose weight. I dont want this to define me and keep me from what I have always loved to do.
It's not that it isn't possible. In isolation almost anything is possible. The real question is it probable and is it healthy? Also its not discouragement, its reality.
We could all say sure you can lose 6lb a month. And encourage you along. But we would be doing you a disservice. So so many times people come on, wanting to lose only 30lb, and want to do it fast. They go really hard, eat only 1000 calories and do well, for a few weeks. Then crash and burn. Because it is unsustainable and unrealistic. So instead we encourage you to be realistic.
Unless you need to lose a huge amount, say 100lb or more, losing 30lb in 5 months just isn't realistic. And can be dangerous.
Instead of being discouraged by what you see as negative feedback, loom at the positive. People are giving you the information to lose weight safely and FOR LIFE. not put your health at risk and set yourself up to gain it all back as fast as you lost it. You need to see weight loss as a lifelong goal, not a few months challenge.6 -
It depends on what it is. Getting into the healthy weight range is a realistic goal for almost everyone, and can be done with relatively few disruptions to one's life (you don't have to spend hours in the gym, cut out entire food groups, or even exercise at all).
A lot of people think they can't do it, or it's not a priority for them, or they really deep down have no desire to do it, so they turn that into "it's an unrealistic goal for me." And as for other people telling you that being a certain weight is an unrealistic goal -- well, that's probably just their own projection, or even a subtle form of sabotage.
I even wonder a lot of times if these unrealistically restrictive lose-weight-fast diets people go on are a subtle form of self-sabotage, as in "See? I told you I can't lose weight, it's impossible!"
Getting a certain physique, like really large muscles or something, is a less realistic goal, both because of the time commitment and because of health issues that may preclude strenuous exercise. But it's still doable for many people if it's your priority. However, you may also find that it's not a priority after all. I used to wish I looked more muscular until I went to a Brazilian jiu jitsu class and realized that, even though many of the women there were strong, most of them really weren't visibly muscular. So there's kind of a difference between "vanity muscles" and having enough strength to do what you want to do.
(Also, sometimes working out can actually be counterproductive. My husband works out too much and oftentimes he is tired and sore for the rest of the day and can barely do anything. Whereas I do pretty light exercise but if I need to do something, I have the energy for it. When we were moving a few weeks ago, I had more energy to carry everything up and down the stairs than he did, even though he works out a lot more!)2 -
siberiantarragon wrote: »It depends on what it is. Getting into the healthy weight range is a realistic goal for almost everyone, and can be done with relatively few disruptions to one's life (you don't have to spend hours in the gym, cut out entire food groups, or even exercise at all).
I'm a bit torn here, because the statistics on obese people losing weight and maintaining in the healthy weight range long term show that it is unlikely.
I think it's more accurate to say that we know how weight management functions in the context of activity and calories consumed, but we don't yet have a great understanding of why some people are just unable to maintain weight loss long term. If the context is most people who set out to do something fail, I don't know if a goal is truly realistic.
One thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is that I have a really good understanding of how to lose about 45 pounds and maintain that weight loss but I have no idea what it is like to be obese, just overweight. There are people here who have that understanding and have great insight into the motivation and effort required to maintain significant weight loss but the time I've spent here and the time I've spent listening to obese people or people who used to be obese has opened my eyes to the fact obesity isn't just like being overweight. I probably have been guilty in some conversations of ignoring those differences, of assuming that my disordered eating gave me a level of insight into something that I don't truly get.
I know some highly accomplished people who are obese and seem truly motivated to lose weight. They aren't dumber than me, it's not like I have some understanding of life or science that eludes them. What's the difference between the obese person who sets out to lose weight and does it long term and the many, many more who don't? I I have no idea.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I'm a bit torn here, because the statistics on obese people losing weight and maintaining in the healthy weight range long term show that it is unlikely.
Well, if one goes into it with that attitude, they're setting themselves up to fail. We don't tell alcoholics and drug addicts that getting sober is "unrealistic."I think it's more accurate to say that we know how weight management functions in the context of activity and calories consumed, but we don't yet have a great understanding of why some people are just unable to maintain weight loss long term. If the context is most people who set out to do something fail, I don't know if a goal is truly realistic.
The fact that we don't have research on this says a lot. There's certainly a large enough sample size of obese people out there to study and find out why some cannot maintain weight loss. But apparently it isn't a priority. Maybe that's why losing weight, and preventing from gaining in the first place, ends up not being a priority for so many people.
We have a society that normalizes obesity and tells people that it isn't a big deal to be obese, and enables being addicted to food. Even on MFP, stating that obesity increases the risk of health problems will get you yelled at and branded as a "fat shamer." If we normalized, say, heroin use the same way we normalize overeating, we'd probably have a lot more heroin addicts, too. The countries which maintain low levels of obesity tend to be countries where obesity is considered to be a problem and not normalized, and that should tell us something. Basically, the way we normalize food addiction now, is similar to how alcohol addiction was normalized in the US in the decades before Prohibition.the time I've spent listening to obese people or people who used to be obese has opened my eyes to the fact obesity isn't just like being overweight.
In what way? I'm not sure about that. "Obesity" and "overweight" are kind of arbitrary terms -- it's a spectrum, not a dichotomy. Like someone who is just slightly into the obese range probably has more in common health-wise with an overweight person than with a person who is 600 pounds. Also, in my experience, a lot of people who are slightly in the obese range are in denial that they are obese, and think they're just slightly overweight. And a lot of overweight people are in denial that they're overweight. This seems to be particularly common in men.I know some highly accomplished people who are obese and seem truly motivated to lose weight. They aren't dumber than me, it's not like I have some understanding of life or science that eludes them. What's the difference between the obese person who sets out to lose weight and does it long term and the many, many more who don't? I I have no idea.
Beating an addiction doesn't really have to do with intelligence. It has to do with willpower.
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Equating obesity to food addiction and making an analogy with heroin and alcohol addiction? I'm offended at that generalization, quite frankly, as someone who used to be obese.10
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Equating obesity to food addiction and making an analogy with heroin and alcohol addiction? I'm offended at that generalization, quite frankly, as someone who used to be obese.
Why?
(BTW, this is exactly the type of thing I was talking about in my post above about getting yelled at.)2
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