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"Unrealistic" body goals
Replies
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You know, I really think it comes down to disposition and what kind of glasses do you view the world through. Are you naturally pessimistic, optimistic or pragmatic? Do you attribute the best of intentions towards peoples words and actions or do you always think the worst?
Let's look at the comment in question:
Are you aware of what it takes be sub 10% BF unless you are very rare genetically and willing to make the sacrifices needed?
To you, this implies the person thinks the posters request was unrealistic. Note, that was not said anywhere. You inferred it.
To me, I infer the writer was genuinely curious if the poster was serious about their goals and fully informed and committed to achieving them.
Two completely different takes on the same response, driven by different perspectives and outlooks on life.9 -
mom23mangos wrote: »You know, I really think it comes down to disposition and what kind of glasses do you view the world through. Are you naturally pessimistic, optimistic or pragmatic? Do you attribute the best of intentions towards peoples words and actions or do you always think the worst?
Let's look at the comment in question:
Are you aware of what it takes be sub 10% BF unless you are very rare genetically and willing to make the sacrifices needed?
To you, this implies the person thinks the posters request was unrealistic. Note, that was not said anywhere. You inferred it.
To me, I infer the writer was genuinely curious if the poster was serious about their goals and fully informed and committed to achieving them.
Two completely different takes on the same response, driven by different perspectives and outlooks on life.
Maybe I should've said "unlikely" rather than "unrealistic".0 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I see that you did reply now, which is good. (I'm somewhat flummoxed that, since you obviously know *how* to reach that goal, and with what you consider not to be optimum genetic potential, that you didn't then or now have "here's how I did it and how long it took" comments. I think that strongly relevant fairly detailed personal accounts are often quite helpful.)
But I'm really quoting to say this: I'd encourage you, when you have profoundly relevant experience, to post, even if someone's looking for some combo of advice, encouragement, and friends. I frequently do that on posts by older women who are concerned about the effects of aging on weight loss/fitness ambitions, whom I think I can advise or encourage, but I just say "I accept friend requests, but am a cr*p friend who rarely posts in that part of MFP" or something like that.
Share your experience to help (advise) or encourage people. That would be *great*.
Balanced advice happens on threads when people with experience/knowledge post and *create* balance.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »It's hard to blame someone for having unrealistic body goals. The whole diet and fitness culture is filled with liars. Let's take 200 pics and post the best we have, not the other 199 that looked like crap. Let's brag about our sub 10% body fat (if it really is, most lie about their body fat as if it matters) and leave out that we are most likely on gear. Let's bask in the glory of our flat stomach but leave out that we had a tummy tuck but just tell people how we work out like crazy.
Here is an example. You look at a magazine of a celebrity who got in killer shape for a movie. Much like a body builder or fitness competitor leading up to a competition so they can peak at the right moment. For them it's the stage, for the actor it's for filming. The magazine tells us what the actor did, of course leaving out the stuff they don't want to admit (steroids etc...). Now your average person reads this, wants to look like this and proceeds to make a lifestyle out of what a celebrity did for say 12 weeks leading up to filming. It's a false narrative from the very beginning...
I know what you mean, but even if the IG picture is filtered and whatever, they STILL accomplished a physique that was able to be improved slightly via filters/lighting/flexing that resulted in the picture that was posted. Its really no different than women with makeup; they're accentuating what already exists. So, I feel like if you arm yourself with the realization that you're not going to wake up and see that IG picture in the mirror, but with a lot of work you CAN wake up with a physique that can look like it with that filter, it's the same thing. People will post flexed/unflexed pictures and if they were posted separately I feel a lot of people would call the unflexed realistic and the flexed unrealistic when they're in fact the same exact physique. Heck, my PP is about 3 weeks pre comp with a pump and good lighting so it's admittedly optimized, but it's real and therefore realistic. I'm struggling with articulating this, I hope it makes sense!
I dunno, I'm a fan of dreaming big and when I see others doing that, it kills me to see anyone raining on that. Granted, that's my perspective and others may see what I view as "rain" to be guidance or a reality check.
I get that you may be less attuned to this as a male, but I think you may not have a clear view of just how manipulated some of the images of female "influencers" are, by photoshop and the like. And, yes, people believe them.
In the transparent cases, "booty gainz" and narrow waists are curiously accompanied by backgrounds where doorframes also bend in and out, hourglass style. But there are others who are clearly equally manipulated images, but either better at Photoshop or smart enough to pose with a solid-color plain background to hide the machinations.
From the standpoint of either Photoshop or genetics, it's not unusual to see misunderstandings about the slight abdominal swell (not "pooch" or belly fat) that most women have because of having a uterus and related female plumbing. It's not throwing cold water in a mean way to point out that most women do have that shape (not flattyFlatFLAT) even when very lean.
(There's a whole thread here about that. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10689837/does-this-uterus-make-my-stomach-look-fat/p1. The thread goes beyond that to show a range of women who've gone various ways along the route to minimal abdominal fat, under various conditions, but the whole point if you read the OP was the frequency of posts that have *actually unrealistic* expectations, at least for the overwhelming majority of us women's genetics. Keep in mind that we've seen photos from some of these women who think they have "belly fat" when it's pretty clear that they just have a normal, healthy shape, often with minimal/no belly fat at all. They've just been trained by the worst influencers to think normal shapes are Not Good.)IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I think your contribution to that thread was great. Mostly I saw in the thread a mix of some discouragement at the beginning, but mostly people calling him on the idea that he needs others to give him the motivation and hard truths that what he needs is discipline and a plan and that it may take a while, plus a couple of people who had achieved the goal and found it not worth the effort (or not good for them). I find the discipline-related posts, as well as those from people with experience, even if not positive, to be helpful contributions to the thread.
If I had the experience to contribute to a thread like that (which I do not), I'd probably have said that it's a great goal, but he doesn't yet know how his body will look at feel at different BF%s, so rather than making sub 9% the one successful result, why not get started and have a plan, but also have some intermediate goals and take stock of how he looks and feels at different %ages. I don't think that would be discouraging. I also would suggest (if there were experienced people on the thread) that if he wants to talk through his plan here, it might be a great way to get feedback on a plan and timetable.
Just a mild observation: I see that to be true on that thread, because I know some of the posters' history from other threads. For someone new here, since that history wasn't recounted, but just the negative end points, it may've come across as purely theoretical negativity, especially given the now-current profile pics or lack thereof.
@IronIsMyTherapy, I think it's fine, on someone else's thread, to ask "from what basis do you say that, as my experience has been different". It may help you get to know regular posters (to the good or bad 😆), and it will help the OP know who is giving experience-based advice (or truly science-based though theoretical advice), vs. just typing less knowledgeable opinions.janejellyroll wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.
And for the record, I do think it's helpful to point out in specific situations where someone isn't being realistic.
I think of @AnnPT77 and her amazing "arms" post. I spent so much time hating my arms. The problem was never my arms. It was my goals!
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
8 -
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
Yes, my arms are still a work in progress (and will be forever, because I do want to maintain strength as I age). I just realized that my IDEAL arm was unrealistic and I was much closer to my "best arm" than I had ever realized. I replaced my visual goal with some functional goals, but my arms have actually gotten leaner this way (which was in line with my original aesthetic goals).4 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I see that you did reply now, which is good. (I'm somewhat flummoxed that, since you obviously know *how* to reach that goal, and with what you consider not to be optimum genetic potential, that you didn't then or now have "here's how I did it and how long it took" comments. I think that strongly relevant fairly detailed personal accounts are often quite helpful.)
But I'm really quoting to say this: I'd encourage you, when you have profoundly relevant experience, to post, even if someone's looking for some combo of advice, encouragement, and friends. I frequently do that on posts by older women who are concerned about the effects of aging on weight loss/fitness ambitions, whom I think I can advise or encourage, but I just say "I accept friend requests, but am a cr*p friend who rarely posts in that part of MFP" or something like that.
Share your experience to help (advise) or encourage people. That would be *great*.
Balanced advice happens on threads when people with experience/knowledge post and *create* balance.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »It's hard to blame someone for having unrealistic body goals. The whole diet and fitness culture is filled with liars. Let's take 200 pics and post the best we have, not the other 199 that looked like crap. Let's brag about our sub 10% body fat (if it really is, most lie about their body fat as if it matters) and leave out that we are most likely on gear. Let's bask in the glory of our flat stomach but leave out that we had a tummy tuck but just tell people how we work out like crazy.
Here is an example. You look at a magazine of a celebrity who got in killer shape for a movie. Much like a body builder or fitness competitor leading up to a competition so they can peak at the right moment. For them it's the stage, for the actor it's for filming. The magazine tells us what the actor did, of course leaving out the stuff they don't want to admit (steroids etc...). Now your average person reads this, wants to look like this and proceeds to make a lifestyle out of what a celebrity did for say 12 weeks leading up to filming. It's a false narrative from the very beginning...
I know what you mean, but even if the IG picture is filtered and whatever, they STILL accomplished a physique that was able to be improved slightly via filters/lighting/flexing that resulted in the picture that was posted. Its really no different than women with makeup; they're accentuating what already exists. So, I feel like if you arm yourself with the realization that you're not going to wake up and see that IG picture in the mirror, but with a lot of work you CAN wake up with a physique that can look like it with that filter, it's the same thing. People will post flexed/unflexed pictures and if they were posted separately I feel a lot of people would call the unflexed realistic and the flexed unrealistic when they're in fact the same exact physique. Heck, my PP is about 3 weeks pre comp with a pump and good lighting so it's admittedly optimized, but it's real and therefore realistic. I'm struggling with articulating this, I hope it makes sense!
I dunno, I'm a fan of dreaming big and when I see others doing that, it kills me to see anyone raining on that. Granted, that's my perspective and others may see what I view as "rain" to be guidance or a reality check.
I get that you may be less attuned to this as a male, but I think you may not have a clear view of just how manipulated some of the images of female "influencers" are, by photoshop and the like. And, yes, people believe them.
In the transparent cases, "booty gainz" and narrow waists are curiously accompanied by backgrounds where doorframes also bend in and out, hourglass style. But there are others who are clearly equally manipulated images, but either better at Photoshop or smart enough to pose with a solid-color plain background to hide the machinations.
From the standpoint of either Photoshop or genetics, it's not unusual to see misunderstandings about the slight abdominal swell (not "pooch" or belly fat) that most women have because of having a uterus and related female plumbing. It's not throwing cold water in a mean way to point out that most women do have that shape (not flattyFlatFLAT) even when very lean.
(There's a whole thread here about that. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10689837/does-this-uterus-make-my-stomach-look-fat/p1. The thread goes beyond that to show a range of women who've gone various ways along the route to minimal abdominal fat, under various conditions, but the whole point if you read the OP was the frequency of posts that have *actually unrealistic* expectations, at least for the overwhelming majority of us women's genetics. Keep in mind that we've seen photos from some of these women who think they have "belly fat" when it's pretty clear that they just have a normal, healthy shape, often with minimal/no belly fat at all. They've just been trained by the worst influencers to think normal shapes are Not Good.)IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I think your contribution to that thread was great. Mostly I saw in the thread a mix of some discouragement at the beginning, but mostly people calling him on the idea that he needs others to give him the motivation and hard truths that what he needs is discipline and a plan and that it may take a while, plus a couple of people who had achieved the goal and found it not worth the effort (or not good for them). I find the discipline-related posts, as well as those from people with experience, even if not positive, to be helpful contributions to the thread.
If I had the experience to contribute to a thread like that (which I do not), I'd probably have said that it's a great goal, but he doesn't yet know how his body will look at feel at different BF%s, so rather than making sub 9% the one successful result, why not get started and have a plan, but also have some intermediate goals and take stock of how he looks and feels at different %ages. I don't think that would be discouraging. I also would suggest (if there were experienced people on the thread) that if he wants to talk through his plan here, it might be a great way to get feedback on a plan and timetable.
Just a mild observation: I see that to be true on that thread, because I know some of the posters' history from other threads. For someone new here, since that history wasn't recounted, but just the negative end points, it may've come across as purely theoretical negativity, especially given the now-current profile pics or lack thereof.
@IronIsMyTherapy, I think it's fine, on someone else's thread, to ask "from what basis do you say that, as my experience has been different". It may help you get to know regular posters (to the good or bad 😆), and it will help the OP know who is giving experience-based advice (or truly science-based though theoretical advice), vs. just typing less knowledgeable opinions.janejellyroll wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.
And for the record, I do think it's helpful to point out in specific situations where someone isn't being realistic.
I think of @AnnPT77 and her amazing "arms" post. I spent so much time hating my arms. The problem was never my arms. It was my goals!
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
My approach to giving advice is kind of jaded. I'm super passionate about helping people and have spent many hours both online and in person giving advice to only have it ignored (maybe bc I've never charged for it). Once, a lady I'd seen in the gym a lot but never spoken to interrupted me mid deadlift session and asked for help with her diet. I spent about 30 minutes right then and there walking her through macros, estimating TDEE, blah blah to have her finish off with "maybe I'll just try Isagenix again..." Welp, thanks for ruining what was a great workout. I used to make meal and workout plans for free, often to the same end. Now when people ask me for help, I say "meet me at the gym at 4AM tomorrow" as a qualifier. Again, jaded view but it seems about 1 of 10 people that ask for advice actually act on it. I HAVE had those that do and dang are they rewarding! But yeah, I don't like giving unsolicited advice, and when it IS solicited, I like to get a feel of commitment before investing a ton of time.3 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
The word unrealistic does not appear in any of the comments in that thread.3 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
Context -- his aspiration for a sub 9% BF beach look will take discipline, good habits, and sacrifices, as posters say. So, no, I disagree with your view that there is something bad about telling the poster that, especially given the context that he thinks what he needs is motivation and support from strangers on the Internet.4 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »mom23mangos wrote: »I did not see anyone tell the poster in that thread that they were being unrealistic (maybe inferred from the victoria secret response, but that's it). Just people being honest about the time, effort and discipline needed to achieve that look and that it's difficult to keep. Looked like most people were saying go for it, just know it's going to be difficult and you will need more than motivation.
I think if you have achieved something similar and did NOT find the process hard or long and can easily maintain everyday, its good for you to chime in with your experience so that the poster can get a different perspective. I frequently chime in on people who think you have to only eat "healthy" food to look at certain way. I eat a ton of crap food and have a fairly low BF for a female. I always qualify that it may not be the best thing for your long term health, but has nothing to do with weight/how you look.
There's a comment indicating it's reliant on rare genetics (which I disagree with) which insinuates it's out of his control. Yes, genetics will affect your structure, how much muscle you'll put on and so on, but I believe most genetic limitations can be overcome with regards to getting lean. Anecdotal, but I personally have horrible genetics.
The comment on rare genetics is in the context of asking if the OP, who is just looking for motivation and support, knows what it will take to achieve his goal UNLESS he has rare genetics -- the commenter wasn't saying OP can't do it; commenter was asking if OP understands what he will need to do (other than accumulating cheerleaders) to achieve his goal UNLESS he is fortunate enough to have the genetics that make a sub 9% BF easy.4 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I was waiting.... My thoughts after reading the thread (8 replies) was that he was asking for support and motivation to get below 10% body fat. Several posters. 2 or 3 were not very supportive, several were, the others realistic. The time to do something was when that thread was running. I assume that you know how to get to that percentage and what it will take. There are others who do too. Even if you don't want a FR you should definitely step up with a little expertise at the moment instead of running a vague thread after. Especially if you don't like or agree with the answers he's getting. If I was able to help him, I would have. The thread was short, the responses were internet--all over. That's what we've got here. People that chime in. Maybe 30% of the responses on a thread are useful, if you're lucky.
So question...what percentage of the remaining 70% on any given thread do you feel unnecessarily indicate something is unrealistic? That's the group I'm taking issue with, not the ones giving good advice or helping form realistic expectations of work or time required.
I would say about 1%. My impression is that such comments are very infrequent. But given that you are reading the comments in the thread you linked to as unnecessarily indicating something is unrealistic, and I don't, I'm guessing you feel it's a much higher percentage.3 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I see that you did reply now, which is good. (I'm somewhat flummoxed that, since you obviously know *how* to reach that goal, and with what you consider not to be optimum genetic potential, that you didn't then or now have "here's how I did it and how long it took" comments. I think that strongly relevant fairly detailed personal accounts are often quite helpful.)
But I'm really quoting to say this: I'd encourage you, when you have profoundly relevant experience, to post, even if someone's looking for some combo of advice, encouragement, and friends. I frequently do that on posts by older women who are concerned about the effects of aging on weight loss/fitness ambitions, whom I think I can advise or encourage, but I just say "I accept friend requests, but am a cr*p friend who rarely posts in that part of MFP" or something like that.
Share your experience to help (advise) or encourage people. That would be *great*.
Balanced advice happens on threads when people with experience/knowledge post and *create* balance.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »It's hard to blame someone for having unrealistic body goals. The whole diet and fitness culture is filled with liars. Let's take 200 pics and post the best we have, not the other 199 that looked like crap. Let's brag about our sub 10% body fat (if it really is, most lie about their body fat as if it matters) and leave out that we are most likely on gear. Let's bask in the glory of our flat stomach but leave out that we had a tummy tuck but just tell people how we work out like crazy.
Here is an example. You look at a magazine of a celebrity who got in killer shape for a movie. Much like a body builder or fitness competitor leading up to a competition so they can peak at the right moment. For them it's the stage, for the actor it's for filming. The magazine tells us what the actor did, of course leaving out the stuff they don't want to admit (steroids etc...). Now your average person reads this, wants to look like this and proceeds to make a lifestyle out of what a celebrity did for say 12 weeks leading up to filming. It's a false narrative from the very beginning...
I know what you mean, but even if the IG picture is filtered and whatever, they STILL accomplished a physique that was able to be improved slightly via filters/lighting/flexing that resulted in the picture that was posted. Its really no different than women with makeup; they're accentuating what already exists. So, I feel like if you arm yourself with the realization that you're not going to wake up and see that IG picture in the mirror, but with a lot of work you CAN wake up with a physique that can look like it with that filter, it's the same thing. People will post flexed/unflexed pictures and if they were posted separately I feel a lot of people would call the unflexed realistic and the flexed unrealistic when they're in fact the same exact physique. Heck, my PP is about 3 weeks pre comp with a pump and good lighting so it's admittedly optimized, but it's real and therefore realistic. I'm struggling with articulating this, I hope it makes sense!
I dunno, I'm a fan of dreaming big and when I see others doing that, it kills me to see anyone raining on that. Granted, that's my perspective and others may see what I view as "rain" to be guidance or a reality check.
I get that you may be less attuned to this as a male, but I think you may not have a clear view of just how manipulated some of the images of female "influencers" are, by photoshop and the like. And, yes, people believe them.
In the transparent cases, "booty gainz" and narrow waists are curiously accompanied by backgrounds where doorframes also bend in and out, hourglass style. But there are others who are clearly equally manipulated images, but either better at Photoshop or smart enough to pose with a solid-color plain background to hide the machinations.
From the standpoint of either Photoshop or genetics, it's not unusual to see misunderstandings about the slight abdominal swell (not "pooch" or belly fat) that most women have because of having a uterus and related female plumbing. It's not throwing cold water in a mean way to point out that most women do have that shape (not flattyFlatFLAT) even when very lean.
(There's a whole thread here about that. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10689837/does-this-uterus-make-my-stomach-look-fat/p1. The thread goes beyond that to show a range of women who've gone various ways along the route to minimal abdominal fat, under various conditions, but the whole point if you read the OP was the frequency of posts that have *actually unrealistic* expectations, at least for the overwhelming majority of us women's genetics. Keep in mind that we've seen photos from some of these women who think they have "belly fat" when it's pretty clear that they just have a normal, healthy shape, often with minimal/no belly fat at all. They've just been trained by the worst influencers to think normal shapes are Not Good.)IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I think your contribution to that thread was great. Mostly I saw in the thread a mix of some discouragement at the beginning, but mostly people calling him on the idea that he needs others to give him the motivation and hard truths that what he needs is discipline and a plan and that it may take a while, plus a couple of people who had achieved the goal and found it not worth the effort (or not good for them). I find the discipline-related posts, as well as those from people with experience, even if not positive, to be helpful contributions to the thread.
If I had the experience to contribute to a thread like that (which I do not), I'd probably have said that it's a great goal, but he doesn't yet know how his body will look at feel at different BF%s, so rather than making sub 9% the one successful result, why not get started and have a plan, but also have some intermediate goals and take stock of how he looks and feels at different %ages. I don't think that would be discouraging. I also would suggest (if there were experienced people on the thread) that if he wants to talk through his plan here, it might be a great way to get feedback on a plan and timetable.
Just a mild observation: I see that to be true on that thread, because I know some of the posters' history from other threads. For someone new here, since that history wasn't recounted, but just the negative end points, it may've come across as purely theoretical negativity, especially given the now-current profile pics or lack thereof.
@IronIsMyTherapy, I think it's fine, on someone else's thread, to ask "from what basis do you say that, as my experience has been different". It may help you get to know regular posters (to the good or bad 😆), and it will help the OP know who is giving experience-based advice (or truly science-based though theoretical advice), vs. just typing less knowledgeable opinions.janejellyroll wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.
And for the record, I do think it's helpful to point out in specific situations where someone isn't being realistic.
I think of @AnnPT77 and her amazing "arms" post. I spent so much time hating my arms. The problem was never my arms. It was my goals!
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
My approach to giving advice is kind of jaded. I'm super passionate about helping people and have spent many hours both online and in person giving advice to only have it ignored (maybe bc I've never charged for it). Once, a lady I'd seen in the gym a lot but never spoken to interrupted me mid deadlift session and asked for help with her diet. I spent about 30 minutes right then and there walking her through macros, estimating TDEE, blah blah to have her finish off with "maybe I'll just try Isagenix again..." Welp, thanks for ruining what was a great workout. I used to make meal and workout plans for free, often to the same end. Now when people ask me for help, I say "meet me at the gym at 4AM tomorrow" as a qualifier. Again, jaded view but it seems about 1 of 10 people that ask for advice actually act on it. I HAVE had those that do and dang are they rewarding! But yeah, I don't like giving unsolicited advice, and when it IS solicited, I like to get a feel of commitment before investing a ton of time.
I can understand feeling that way. And it's harder to scale a response (i.e., decide how much time to invest) when in a formum vs. in person, since we don't get the subtle feedback from things like facial expressions to know when we're wasting our time.
On the flip side of that, in a forum, there's the potential that we're giving information to people who are reading but not posting. That's a bit of a crapshoot, admittedly, but I'm quite confident it happens. (I've posted the arm rant that Jane's referring to so many flipping times that I'm bleeping sick of doing it. Often, I'm just using search to find a previous response, and bracketing the main point with some small thread-specific stuff. I believe Jane has mentioned before that she found it helpful, but I'm periodically surprised by positive references to it in threads from women who I didn't even realize had seen it.)
While I understand why you'd not take the time to formulate a detailed advice post (totally legit), it's still hard for me to understand why you'd post in critique of people who did respond in that case (and perhaps other cases not linked). One of the things that I've come to believe about volunteer organizations of all sorts (of which MFP is a small case), is that if I'm not putting in the work to make the volunteer functions run, I don't have much firm ground to stand on, when criticizing how others who do put in the work go about doing it.
I don't mean to be harsh here, just frank. As I said earlier in the thread, I think there's value in occasional discussions like this one, especially now that we have something specific to focus on.6 -
I've read through some of the comments...and quite honestly, many of us who have been on these forums for years have read it all...from the informed to the asinine.
I think the comments in the forums have become more honest and less foolish over the years.
I think the majority of people really have the intent of being helpful. I rarely see flat out discouragement for the sake of discouragement.
Telling someone that a very difficult long-term goal (with zero planning, zero prep, zero knowledge and or zero experience) isn't realistically accomplished within a finite amount of time isn't discouragement. It's truth.
ETA: don't go to the bodybuilding.com forums...the level of honesty there is painful and sometimes rude.9 -
Honestly, bodybuilding.com is awful.
OP, I think the replies in thread were honest. And the big elephant in the room is your not adding your help or encouragement.5 -
I go to bodybuilding.com forums for funny answers to sex related questions. It is a weird hobby, but cheap entertainment.1
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I can understand feeling that way. And it's harder to scale a response (i.e., decide how much time to invest) when in a formum vs. in person, since we don't get the subtle feedback from things like facial expressions to know when we're wasting our time.
On the flip side of that, in a forum, there's the potential that we're giving information to people who are reading but not posting. That's a bit of a crapshoot, admittedly, but I'm quite confident it happens. (I've posted the arm rant that Jane's referring to so many flipping times that I'm bleeping sick of doing it. Often, I'm just using search to find a previous response, and bracketing the main point with some small thread-specific stuff. I believe Jane has mentioned before that she found it helpful, but I'm periodically surprised by positive references to it in threads from women who I didn't even realize had seen it.)
While I understand why you'd not take the time to formulate a detailed advice post (totally legit), it's still hard for me to understand why you'd post in critique of people who did respond in that case (and perhaps other cases not linked). One of the things that I've come to believe about volunteer organizations of all sorts (of which MFP is a small case), is that if I'm not putting in the work to make the volunteer functions run, I don't have much firm ground to stand on, when criticizing how others who do put in the work go about doing it.
I don't mean to be harsh here, just frank. As I said earlier in the thread, I think there's value in occasional discussions like this one, especially now that we have something specific to focus on.
It happens, I assure you.
I'm mostly a lurker, but I have visited the forums daily for the last two years, and the amount of things I'm learning from so many different users never ceases to amaze me - and yes, that includes you too, Ann. Thank you! 
7 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I see that you did reply now, which is good. (I'm somewhat flummoxed that, since you obviously know *how* to reach that goal, and with what you consider not to be optimum genetic potential, that you didn't then or now have "here's how I did it and how long it took" comments. I think that strongly relevant fairly detailed personal accounts are often quite helpful.)
But I'm really quoting to say this: I'd encourage you, when you have profoundly relevant experience, to post, even if someone's looking for some combo of advice, encouragement, and friends. I frequently do that on posts by older women who are concerned about the effects of aging on weight loss/fitness ambitions, whom I think I can advise or encourage, but I just say "I accept friend requests, but am a cr*p friend who rarely posts in that part of MFP" or something like that.
Share your experience to help (advise) or encourage people. That would be *great*.
Balanced advice happens on threads when people with experience/knowledge post and *create* balance.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »It's hard to blame someone for having unrealistic body goals. The whole diet and fitness culture is filled with liars. Let's take 200 pics and post the best we have, not the other 199 that looked like crap. Let's brag about our sub 10% body fat (if it really is, most lie about their body fat as if it matters) and leave out that we are most likely on gear. Let's bask in the glory of our flat stomach but leave out that we had a tummy tuck but just tell people how we work out like crazy.
Here is an example. You look at a magazine of a celebrity who got in killer shape for a movie. Much like a body builder or fitness competitor leading up to a competition so they can peak at the right moment. For them it's the stage, for the actor it's for filming. The magazine tells us what the actor did, of course leaving out the stuff they don't want to admit (steroids etc...). Now your average person reads this, wants to look like this and proceeds to make a lifestyle out of what a celebrity did for say 12 weeks leading up to filming. It's a false narrative from the very beginning...
I know what you mean, but even if the IG picture is filtered and whatever, they STILL accomplished a physique that was able to be improved slightly via filters/lighting/flexing that resulted in the picture that was posted. Its really no different than women with makeup; they're accentuating what already exists. So, I feel like if you arm yourself with the realization that you're not going to wake up and see that IG picture in the mirror, but with a lot of work you CAN wake up with a physique that can look like it with that filter, it's the same thing. People will post flexed/unflexed pictures and if they were posted separately I feel a lot of people would call the unflexed realistic and the flexed unrealistic when they're in fact the same exact physique. Heck, my PP is about 3 weeks pre comp with a pump and good lighting so it's admittedly optimized, but it's real and therefore realistic. I'm struggling with articulating this, I hope it makes sense!
I dunno, I'm a fan of dreaming big and when I see others doing that, it kills me to see anyone raining on that. Granted, that's my perspective and others may see what I view as "rain" to be guidance or a reality check.
I get that you may be less attuned to this as a male, but I think you may not have a clear view of just how manipulated some of the images of female "influencers" are, by photoshop and the like. And, yes, people believe them.
In the transparent cases, "booty gainz" and narrow waists are curiously accompanied by backgrounds where doorframes also bend in and out, hourglass style. But there are others who are clearly equally manipulated images, but either better at Photoshop or smart enough to pose with a solid-color plain background to hide the machinations.
From the standpoint of either Photoshop or genetics, it's not unusual to see misunderstandings about the slight abdominal swell (not "pooch" or belly fat) that most women have because of having a uterus and related female plumbing. It's not throwing cold water in a mean way to point out that most women do have that shape (not flattyFlatFLAT) even when very lean.
(There's a whole thread here about that. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10689837/does-this-uterus-make-my-stomach-look-fat/p1. The thread goes beyond that to show a range of women who've gone various ways along the route to minimal abdominal fat, under various conditions, but the whole point if you read the OP was the frequency of posts that have *actually unrealistic* expectations, at least for the overwhelming majority of us women's genetics. Keep in mind that we've seen photos from some of these women who think they have "belly fat" when it's pretty clear that they just have a normal, healthy shape, often with minimal/no belly fat at all. They've just been trained by the worst influencers to think normal shapes are Not Good.)IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I think your contribution to that thread was great. Mostly I saw in the thread a mix of some discouragement at the beginning, but mostly people calling him on the idea that he needs others to give him the motivation and hard truths that what he needs is discipline and a plan and that it may take a while, plus a couple of people who had achieved the goal and found it not worth the effort (or not good for them). I find the discipline-related posts, as well as those from people with experience, even if not positive, to be helpful contributions to the thread.
If I had the experience to contribute to a thread like that (which I do not), I'd probably have said that it's a great goal, but he doesn't yet know how his body will look at feel at different BF%s, so rather than making sub 9% the one successful result, why not get started and have a plan, but also have some intermediate goals and take stock of how he looks and feels at different %ages. I don't think that would be discouraging. I also would suggest (if there were experienced people on the thread) that if he wants to talk through his plan here, it might be a great way to get feedback on a plan and timetable.
Just a mild observation: I see that to be true on that thread, because I know some of the posters' history from other threads. For someone new here, since that history wasn't recounted, but just the negative end points, it may've come across as purely theoretical negativity, especially given the now-current profile pics or lack thereof.
@IronIsMyTherapy, I think it's fine, on someone else's thread, to ask "from what basis do you say that, as my experience has been different". It may help you get to know regular posters (to the good or bad 😆), and it will help the OP know who is giving experience-based advice (or truly science-based though theoretical advice), vs. just typing less knowledgeable opinions.janejellyroll wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.
And for the record, I do think it's helpful to point out in specific situations where someone isn't being realistic.
I think of @AnnPT77 and her amazing "arms" post. I spent so much time hating my arms. The problem was never my arms. It was my goals!
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
My approach to giving advice is kind of jaded. I'm super passionate about helping people and have spent many hours both online and in person giving advice to only have it ignored (maybe bc I've never charged for it). Once, a lady I'd seen in the gym a lot but never spoken to interrupted me mid deadlift session and asked for help with her diet. I spent about 30 minutes right then and there walking her through macros, estimating TDEE, blah blah to have her finish off with "maybe I'll just try Isagenix again..." Welp, thanks for ruining what was a great workout. I used to make meal and workout plans for free, often to the same end. Now when people ask me for help, I say "meet me at the gym at 4AM tomorrow" as a qualifier. Again, jaded view but it seems about 1 of 10 people that ask for advice actually act on it. I HAVE had those that do and dang are they rewarding! But yeah, I don't like giving unsolicited advice, and when it IS solicited, I like to get a feel of commitment before investing a ton of time.
I can understand feeling that way. And it's harder to scale a response (i.e., decide how much time to invest) when in a formum vs. in person, since we don't get the subtle feedback from things like facial expressions to know when we're wasting our time.
On the flip side of that, in a forum, there's the potential that we're giving information to people who are reading but not posting. That's a bit of a crapshoot, admittedly, but I'm quite confident it happens. (I've posted the arm rant that Jane's referring to so many flipping times that I'm bleeping sick of doing it. Often, I'm just using search to find a previous response, and bracketing the main point with some small thread-specific stuff. I believe Jane has mentioned before that she found it helpful, but I'm periodically surprised by positive references to it in threads from women who I didn't even realize had seen it.)
While I understand why you'd not take the time to formulate a detailed advice post (totally legit), it's still hard for me to understand why you'd post in critique of people who did respond in that case (and perhaps other cases not linked). One of the things that I've come to believe about volunteer organizations of all sorts (of which MFP is a small case), is that if I'm not putting in the work to make the volunteer functions run, I don't have much firm ground to stand on, when criticizing how others who do put in the work go about doing it.
I don't mean to be harsh here, just frank. As I said earlier in the thread, I think there's value in occasional discussions like this one, especially now that we have something specific to focus on.
I guess I dont see warning someone of how much work is required to do something as helpful, so I view it as negative. Which obviously varies person to person. If someone told me it would take me over 10 years to accomplish my goal, that probably would've been so daunting I wouldn't have tried. My approach is to get them to take one step, then another. So yes, I can see how people may not view the comments as negatively as I do but having climbed that mountain, if anyone says they also want to climb it, I'd never say "do you realize how high it is? How cold it gets? How many dont make it?" but rather "Awesome! Get your boots on!". I think those reality checks can be as discouraging as informative so personally I'd be hesitant to put them out there. I realize that's not everyones perspective which is why I started this discussion. I'm not right, but I'd argue neither are the people that disagree. I believe the answer is dependant on a lot of factors. Hopefully that makes sense lol.2 -
deputy_randolph wrote: »I've read through some of the comments...and quite honestly, many of us who have been on these forums for years have read it all...from the informed to the asinine.
I think the comments in the forums have become more honest and less foolish over the years.
I think the majority of people really have the intent of being helpful. I rarely see flat out discouragement for the sake of discouragement.
Telling someone that a very difficult long-term goal (with zero planning, zero prep, zero knowledge and or zero experience) isn't realistically accomplished within a finite amount of time isn't discouragement. It's truth.
ETA: don't go to the bodybuilding.com forums...the level of honesty there is painful and sometimes rude.
The truth can be, and often is, discouraging.
2 -
L1zardQueen wrote: »Honestly, bodybuilding.com is awful.
OP, I think the replies in thread were honest. And the big elephant in the room is your not adding your help or encouragement.
I did after being called out on it. Copied and pasted my earlier reply to this below. He wasnt asking advice, he was asking for friends and I'm not trying to add a bunch of friend connections.
My approach to giving advice is kind of jaded. I'm super passionate about helping people and have spent many hours both online and in person giving advice to only have it ignored (maybe bc I've never charged for it). Once, a lady I'd seen in the gym a lot but never spoken to interrupted me mid deadlift session and asked for help with her diet. I spent about 30 minutes right then and there walking her through macros, estimating TDEE, blah blah to have her finish off with "maybe I'll just try Isagenix again..." Welp, thanks for ruining what was a great workout. I used to make meal and workout plans for free, often to the same end. Now when people ask me for help, I say "meet me at the gym at 4AM tomorrow" as a qualifier. Again, jaded view but it seems about 1 of 10 people that ask for advice actually act on it. I HAVE had those that do and dang are they rewarding! But yeah, I don't like giving unsolicited advice, and when it IS solicited, I like to get a feel of commitment before investing a ton of time.2 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »deputy_randolph wrote: »I've read through some of the comments...and quite honestly, many of us who have been on these forums for years have read it all...from the informed to the asinine.
I think the comments in the forums have become more honest and less foolish over the years.
I think the majority of people really have the intent of being helpful. I rarely see flat out discouragement for the sake of discouragement.
Telling someone that a very difficult long-term goal (with zero planning, zero prep, zero knowledge and or zero experience) isn't realistically accomplished within a finite amount of time isn't discouragement. It's truth.
ETA: don't go to the bodybuilding.com forums...the level of honesty there is painful and sometimes rude.
The truth can be, and often is, discouraging.
Sometimes yes but the truth is also necessary.
Think of all the money people waste on stuff that does not work because they simply don't want to face the truth...5 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »deputy_randolph wrote: »I've read through some of the comments...and quite honestly, many of us who have been on these forums for years have read it all...from the informed to the asinine.
I think the comments in the forums have become more honest and less foolish over the years.
I think the majority of people really have the intent of being helpful. I rarely see flat out discouragement for the sake of discouragement.
Telling someone that a very difficult long-term goal (with zero planning, zero prep, zero knowledge and or zero experience) isn't realistically accomplished within a finite amount of time isn't discouragement. It's truth.
ETA: don't go to the bodybuilding.com forums...the level of honesty there is painful and sometimes rude.
The truth can be, and often is, discouraging.
Sometimes yes but the truth is also necessary.
Think of all the money people waste on stuff that does not work because they simply don't want to face the truth...
Oh, 100%. I'm not saying don't tell the truth, I just feel if the truth is as likely to discourage as to inform, it may be wise to hold back. If someone had triple digits to lose, I'd focus on helping them make small, manageable changes and have them enjoy being headed in a positive direction rather than say "nice, but you realize this could take years, right?".1 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »deputy_randolph wrote: »I've read through some of the comments...and quite honestly, many of us who have been on these forums for years have read it all...from the informed to the asinine.
I think the comments in the forums have become more honest and less foolish over the years.
I think the majority of people really have the intent of being helpful. I rarely see flat out discouragement for the sake of discouragement.
Telling someone that a very difficult long-term goal (with zero planning, zero prep, zero knowledge and or zero experience) isn't realistically accomplished within a finite amount of time isn't discouragement. It's truth.
ETA: don't go to the bodybuilding.com forums...the level of honesty there is painful and sometimes rude.
The truth can be, and often is, discouraging.
Sometimes yes but the truth is also necessary.
Think of all the money people waste on stuff that does not work because they simply don't want to face the truth...
Oh, 100%. I'm not saying don't tell the truth, I just feel if the truth is as likely to discourage as to inform, it may be wise to hold back. If someone had triple digits to lose, I'd focus on helping them make small, manageable changes and have them enjoy being headed in a positive direction rather than say "nice, but you realize this could take years, right?".
In business they call it managing expectations...6 -
Being a woman with 19%body fat, a marathoner, and a bmi of 20 a flat stomach 24/7 is not realistic. See periods, water retention, bloating etc will happen and focusing on health is better than ending up with an eating disorder or body dysmorphia (I should know I have/had struggled with both). When people say don't aim for what is not realistic they mean to focus on living a life and having balance, you can not do that maintain most peoples "body goals" least not all the time (I mean the stuff fitness models do for covers and competitions are just as bad as anorexia-esq dieters sorry not sorry)5
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HappyVeganKitty wrote: »I mean the stuff fitness models do for covers and competitions are just as bad as anorexia-esq dieters sorry not sorry
#truth
5 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I see that you did reply now, which is good. (I'm somewhat flummoxed that, since you obviously know *how* to reach that goal, and with what you consider not to be optimum genetic potential, that you didn't then or now have "here's how I did it and how long it took" comments. I think that strongly relevant fairly detailed personal accounts are often quite helpful.)
But I'm really quoting to say this: I'd encourage you, when you have profoundly relevant experience, to post, even if someone's looking for some combo of advice, encouragement, and friends. I frequently do that on posts by older women who are concerned about the effects of aging on weight loss/fitness ambitions, whom I think I can advise or encourage, but I just say "I accept friend requests, but am a cr*p friend who rarely posts in that part of MFP" or something like that.
Share your experience to help (advise) or encourage people. That would be *great*.
Balanced advice happens on threads when people with experience/knowledge post and *create* balance.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »It's hard to blame someone for having unrealistic body goals. The whole diet and fitness culture is filled with liars. Let's take 200 pics and post the best we have, not the other 199 that looked like crap. Let's brag about our sub 10% body fat (if it really is, most lie about their body fat as if it matters) and leave out that we are most likely on gear. Let's bask in the glory of our flat stomach but leave out that we had a tummy tuck but just tell people how we work out like crazy.
Here is an example. You look at a magazine of a celebrity who got in killer shape for a movie. Much like a body builder or fitness competitor leading up to a competition so they can peak at the right moment. For them it's the stage, for the actor it's for filming. The magazine tells us what the actor did, of course leaving out the stuff they don't want to admit (steroids etc...). Now your average person reads this, wants to look like this and proceeds to make a lifestyle out of what a celebrity did for say 12 weeks leading up to filming. It's a false narrative from the very beginning...
I know what you mean, but even if the IG picture is filtered and whatever, they STILL accomplished a physique that was able to be improved slightly via filters/lighting/flexing that resulted in the picture that was posted. Its really no different than women with makeup; they're accentuating what already exists. So, I feel like if you arm yourself with the realization that you're not going to wake up and see that IG picture in the mirror, but with a lot of work you CAN wake up with a physique that can look like it with that filter, it's the same thing. People will post flexed/unflexed pictures and if they were posted separately I feel a lot of people would call the unflexed realistic and the flexed unrealistic when they're in fact the same exact physique. Heck, my PP is about 3 weeks pre comp with a pump and good lighting so it's admittedly optimized, but it's real and therefore realistic. I'm struggling with articulating this, I hope it makes sense!
I dunno, I'm a fan of dreaming big and when I see others doing that, it kills me to see anyone raining on that. Granted, that's my perspective and others may see what I view as "rain" to be guidance or a reality check.
I get that you may be less attuned to this as a male, but I think you may not have a clear view of just how manipulated some of the images of female "influencers" are, by photoshop and the like. And, yes, people believe them.
In the transparent cases, "booty gainz" and narrow waists are curiously accompanied by backgrounds where doorframes also bend in and out, hourglass style. But there are others who are clearly equally manipulated images, but either better at Photoshop or smart enough to pose with a solid-color plain background to hide the machinations.
From the standpoint of either Photoshop or genetics, it's not unusual to see misunderstandings about the slight abdominal swell (not "pooch" or belly fat) that most women have because of having a uterus and related female plumbing. It's not throwing cold water in a mean way to point out that most women do have that shape (not flattyFlatFLAT) even when very lean.
(There's a whole thread here about that. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10689837/does-this-uterus-make-my-stomach-look-fat/p1. The thread goes beyond that to show a range of women who've gone various ways along the route to minimal abdominal fat, under various conditions, but the whole point if you read the OP was the frequency of posts that have *actually unrealistic* expectations, at least for the overwhelming majority of us women's genetics. Keep in mind that we've seen photos from some of these women who think they have "belly fat" when it's pretty clear that they just have a normal, healthy shape, often with minimal/no belly fat at all. They've just been trained by the worst influencers to think normal shapes are Not Good.)IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I think your contribution to that thread was great. Mostly I saw in the thread a mix of some discouragement at the beginning, but mostly people calling him on the idea that he needs others to give him the motivation and hard truths that what he needs is discipline and a plan and that it may take a while, plus a couple of people who had achieved the goal and found it not worth the effort (or not good for them). I find the discipline-related posts, as well as those from people with experience, even if not positive, to be helpful contributions to the thread.
If I had the experience to contribute to a thread like that (which I do not), I'd probably have said that it's a great goal, but he doesn't yet know how his body will look at feel at different BF%s, so rather than making sub 9% the one successful result, why not get started and have a plan, but also have some intermediate goals and take stock of how he looks and feels at different %ages. I don't think that would be discouraging. I also would suggest (if there were experienced people on the thread) that if he wants to talk through his plan here, it might be a great way to get feedback on a plan and timetable.
Just a mild observation: I see that to be true on that thread, because I know some of the posters' history from other threads. For someone new here, since that history wasn't recounted, but just the negative end points, it may've come across as purely theoretical negativity, especially given the now-current profile pics or lack thereof.
@IronIsMyTherapy, I think it's fine, on someone else's thread, to ask "from what basis do you say that, as my experience has been different". It may help you get to know regular posters (to the good or bad 😆), and it will help the OP know who is giving experience-based advice (or truly science-based though theoretical advice), vs. just typing less knowledgeable opinions.janejellyroll wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.
And for the record, I do think it's helpful to point out in specific situations where someone isn't being realistic.
I think of @AnnPT77 and her amazing "arms" post. I spent so much time hating my arms. The problem was never my arms. It was my goals!
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
My approach to giving advice is kind of jaded. I'm super passionate about helping people and have spent many hours both online and in person giving advice to only have it ignored (maybe bc I've never charged for it). Once, a lady I'd seen in the gym a lot but never spoken to interrupted me mid deadlift session and asked for help with her diet. I spent about 30 minutes right then and there walking her through macros, estimating TDEE, blah blah to have her finish off with "maybe I'll just try Isagenix again..." Welp, thanks for ruining what was a great workout. I used to make meal and workout plans for free, often to the same end. Now when people ask me for help, I say "meet me at the gym at 4AM tomorrow" as a qualifier. Again, jaded view but it seems about 1 of 10 people that ask for advice actually act on it. I HAVE had those that do and dang are they rewarding! But yeah, I don't like giving unsolicited advice, and when it IS solicited, I like to get a feel of commitment before investing a ton of time.
I can understand feeling that way. And it's harder to scale a response (i.e., decide how much time to invest) when in a formum vs. in person, since we don't get the subtle feedback from things like facial expressions to know when we're wasting our time.
On the flip side of that, in a forum, there's the potential that we're giving information to people who are reading but not posting. That's a bit of a crapshoot, admittedly, but I'm quite confident it happens. (I've posted the arm rant that Jane's referring to so many flipping times that I'm bleeping sick of doing it. Often, I'm just using search to find a previous response, and bracketing the main point with some small thread-specific stuff. I believe Jane has mentioned before that she found it helpful, but I'm periodically surprised by positive references to it in threads from women who I didn't even realize had seen it.)
While I understand why you'd not take the time to formulate a detailed advice post (totally legit), it's still hard for me to understand why you'd post in critique of people who did respond in that case (and perhaps other cases not linked). One of the things that I've come to believe about volunteer organizations of all sorts (of which MFP is a small case), is that if I'm not putting in the work to make the volunteer functions run, I don't have much firm ground to stand on, when criticizing how others who do put in the work go about doing it.
I don't mean to be harsh here, just frank. As I said earlier in the thread, I think there's value in occasional discussions like this one, especially now that we have something specific to focus on.
I guess I dont see warning someone of how much work is required to do something as helpful, so I view it as negative. Which obviously varies person to person. If someone told me it would take me over 10 years to accomplish my goal, that probably would've been so daunting I wouldn't have tried. My approach is to get them to take one step, then another. So yes, I can see how people may not view the comments as negatively as I do but having climbed that mountain, if anyone says they also want to climb it, I'd never say "do you realize how high it is? How cold it gets? How many dont make it?" but rather "Awesome! Get your boots on!". I think those reality checks can be as discouraging as informative so personally I'd be hesitant to put them out there. I realize that's not everyones perspective which is why I started this discussion. I'm not right, but I'd argue neither are the people that disagree. I believe the answer is dependant on a lot of factors. Hopefully that makes sense lol.
If someone wanted to climb that mountain with ME, I'd make sure that they had the proper equipment and stamina, and I'd surely ask a few pointed questions. And discouraging is in the eye of the beholder (as we've seen in this thread over and over).4 -
It again comes down to we have no idea what motivates or discourages someone. So getting a variety of replies is probably a good thing.
I made a goal of learning to handstand over 4 years ago. I remember watching a YouTube tutorial and the woman saying it took her 2 years to learn how to headstand and 5 to handstand. Some people would be put off by that. Thinking they don’t want to put 5 YEARS of effort just to learn one little thing. The way I looked at it, if I started that day, I could either be one day closer to my goal or else it would always be that 5 years away. I honestly didn’t think it would take that long in reality, but here I am and while I can get a 15-45s hold with decent consistency, it’s not 100%.6 -
mom23mangos wrote: »It again comes down to we have no idea what motivates or discourages someone. So getting a variety of replies is probably a good thing.
I made a goal of learning to handstand over 4 years ago. I remember watching a YouTube tutorial and the woman saying it took her 2 years to learn how to headstand and 5 to handstand. Some people would be put off by that. Thinking they don’t want to put 5 YEARS of effort just to learn one little thing. The way I looked at it, if I started that day, I could either be one day closer to my goal or else it would always be that 5 years away. I honestly didn’t think it would take that long in reality, but here I am and while I can get a 15-45s hold with decent consistency, it’s not 100%.
I find that things really change in a positive way when your appearance goals transform into performance goals...5 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I see that you did reply now, which is good. (I'm somewhat flummoxed that, since you obviously know *how* to reach that goal, and with what you consider not to be optimum genetic potential, that you didn't then or now have "here's how I did it and how long it took" comments. I think that strongly relevant fairly detailed personal accounts are often quite helpful.)
But I'm really quoting to say this: I'd encourage you, when you have profoundly relevant experience, to post, even if someone's looking for some combo of advice, encouragement, and friends. I frequently do that on posts by older women who are concerned about the effects of aging on weight loss/fitness ambitions, whom I think I can advise or encourage, but I just say "I accept friend requests, but am a cr*p friend who rarely posts in that part of MFP" or something like that.
Share your experience to help (advise) or encourage people. That would be *great*.
Balanced advice happens on threads when people with experience/knowledge post and *create* balance.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »It's hard to blame someone for having unrealistic body goals. The whole diet and fitness culture is filled with liars. Let's take 200 pics and post the best we have, not the other 199 that looked like crap. Let's brag about our sub 10% body fat (if it really is, most lie about their body fat as if it matters) and leave out that we are most likely on gear. Let's bask in the glory of our flat stomach but leave out that we had a tummy tuck but just tell people how we work out like crazy.
Here is an example. You look at a magazine of a celebrity who got in killer shape for a movie. Much like a body builder or fitness competitor leading up to a competition so they can peak at the right moment. For them it's the stage, for the actor it's for filming. The magazine tells us what the actor did, of course leaving out the stuff they don't want to admit (steroids etc...). Now your average person reads this, wants to look like this and proceeds to make a lifestyle out of what a celebrity did for say 12 weeks leading up to filming. It's a false narrative from the very beginning...
I know what you mean, but even if the IG picture is filtered and whatever, they STILL accomplished a physique that was able to be improved slightly via filters/lighting/flexing that resulted in the picture that was posted. Its really no different than women with makeup; they're accentuating what already exists. So, I feel like if you arm yourself with the realization that you're not going to wake up and see that IG picture in the mirror, but with a lot of work you CAN wake up with a physique that can look like it with that filter, it's the same thing. People will post flexed/unflexed pictures and if they were posted separately I feel a lot of people would call the unflexed realistic and the flexed unrealistic when they're in fact the same exact physique. Heck, my PP is about 3 weeks pre comp with a pump and good lighting so it's admittedly optimized, but it's real and therefore realistic. I'm struggling with articulating this, I hope it makes sense!
I dunno, I'm a fan of dreaming big and when I see others doing that, it kills me to see anyone raining on that. Granted, that's my perspective and others may see what I view as "rain" to be guidance or a reality check.
I get that you may be less attuned to this as a male, but I think you may not have a clear view of just how manipulated some of the images of female "influencers" are, by photoshop and the like. And, yes, people believe them.
In the transparent cases, "booty gainz" and narrow waists are curiously accompanied by backgrounds where doorframes also bend in and out, hourglass style. But there are others who are clearly equally manipulated images, but either better at Photoshop or smart enough to pose with a solid-color plain background to hide the machinations.
From the standpoint of either Photoshop or genetics, it's not unusual to see misunderstandings about the slight abdominal swell (not "pooch" or belly fat) that most women have because of having a uterus and related female plumbing. It's not throwing cold water in a mean way to point out that most women do have that shape (not flattyFlatFLAT) even when very lean.
(There's a whole thread here about that. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10689837/does-this-uterus-make-my-stomach-look-fat/p1. The thread goes beyond that to show a range of women who've gone various ways along the route to minimal abdominal fat, under various conditions, but the whole point if you read the OP was the frequency of posts that have *actually unrealistic* expectations, at least for the overwhelming majority of us women's genetics. Keep in mind that we've seen photos from some of these women who think they have "belly fat" when it's pretty clear that they just have a normal, healthy shape, often with minimal/no belly fat at all. They've just been trained by the worst influencers to think normal shapes are Not Good.)IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I think your contribution to that thread was great. Mostly I saw in the thread a mix of some discouragement at the beginning, but mostly people calling him on the idea that he needs others to give him the motivation and hard truths that what he needs is discipline and a plan and that it may take a while, plus a couple of people who had achieved the goal and found it not worth the effort (or not good for them). I find the discipline-related posts, as well as those from people with experience, even if not positive, to be helpful contributions to the thread.
If I had the experience to contribute to a thread like that (which I do not), I'd probably have said that it's a great goal, but he doesn't yet know how his body will look at feel at different BF%s, so rather than making sub 9% the one successful result, why not get started and have a plan, but also have some intermediate goals and take stock of how he looks and feels at different %ages. I don't think that would be discouraging. I also would suggest (if there were experienced people on the thread) that if he wants to talk through his plan here, it might be a great way to get feedback on a plan and timetable.
Just a mild observation: I see that to be true on that thread, because I know some of the posters' history from other threads. For someone new here, since that history wasn't recounted, but just the negative end points, it may've come across as purely theoretical negativity, especially given the now-current profile pics or lack thereof.
@IronIsMyTherapy, I think it's fine, on someone else's thread, to ask "from what basis do you say that, as my experience has been different". It may help you get to know regular posters (to the good or bad 😆), and it will help the OP know who is giving experience-based advice (or truly science-based though theoretical advice), vs. just typing less knowledgeable opinions.janejellyroll wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.
And for the record, I do think it's helpful to point out in specific situations where someone isn't being realistic.
I think of @AnnPT77 and her amazing "arms" post. I spent so much time hating my arms. The problem was never my arms. It was my goals!
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
My approach to giving advice is kind of jaded. I'm super passionate about helping people and have spent many hours both online and in person giving advice to only have it ignored (maybe bc I've never charged for it). Once, a lady I'd seen in the gym a lot but never spoken to interrupted me mid deadlift session and asked for help with her diet. I spent about 30 minutes right then and there walking her through macros, estimating TDEE, blah blah to have her finish off with "maybe I'll just try Isagenix again..." Welp, thanks for ruining what was a great workout. I used to make meal and workout plans for free, often to the same end. Now when people ask me for help, I say "meet me at the gym at 4AM tomorrow" as a qualifier. Again, jaded view but it seems about 1 of 10 people that ask for advice actually act on it. I HAVE had those that do and dang are they rewarding! But yeah, I don't like giving unsolicited advice, and when it IS solicited, I like to get a feel of commitment before investing a ton of time.
I can understand feeling that way. And it's harder to scale a response (i.e., decide how much time to invest) when in a formum vs. in person, since we don't get the subtle feedback from things like facial expressions to know when we're wasting our time.
On the flip side of that, in a forum, there's the potential that we're giving information to people who are reading but not posting. That's a bit of a crapshoot, admittedly, but I'm quite confident it happens. (I've posted the arm rant that Jane's referring to so many flipping times that I'm bleeping sick of doing it. Often, I'm just using search to find a previous response, and bracketing the main point with some small thread-specific stuff. I believe Jane has mentioned before that she found it helpful, but I'm periodically surprised by positive references to it in threads from women who I didn't even realize had seen it.)
While I understand why you'd not take the time to formulate a detailed advice post (totally legit), it's still hard for me to understand why you'd post in critique of people who did respond in that case (and perhaps other cases not linked). One of the things that I've come to believe about volunteer organizations of all sorts (of which MFP is a small case), is that if I'm not putting in the work to make the volunteer functions run, I don't have much firm ground to stand on, when criticizing how others who do put in the work go about doing it.
I don't mean to be harsh here, just frank. As I said earlier in the thread, I think there's value in occasional discussions like this one, especially now that we have something specific to focus on.
I guess I dont see warning someone of how much work is required to do something as helpful, so I view it as negative. Which obviously varies person to person. If someone told me it would take me over 10 years to accomplish my goal, that probably would've been so daunting I wouldn't have tried. My approach is to get them to take one step, then another. So yes, I can see how people may not view the comments as negatively as I do but having climbed that mountain, if anyone says they also want to climb it, I'd never say "do you realize how high it is? How cold it gets? How many dont make it?" but rather "Awesome! Get your boots on!". I think those reality checks can be as discouraging as informative so personally I'd be hesitant to put them out there. I realize that's not everyones perspective which is why I started this discussion. I'm not right, but I'd argue neither are the people that disagree. I believe the answer is dependant on a lot of factors. Hopefully that makes sense lol.
Sure, that makes sense. I think most of us who try to help (however imperfectly) frame our help from a perspective that would work for us, and people are very diverse.
As preface to this next bit, I wouldn't hold you responsible for knowing things you quite reasonably don't know. That would be idiotic of me.
IMU, Lemur is right: Some of the people who commented on that thread, in ways you perceive as negative, were speaking from actual personal experience (been there, found it had serious downsides) . . . but they didn't recount their history on the thread. Would knowing that history have altered your perception of the advice? ("No" is a perfectly valid answer. 😉)
In this last bit, I'm not speaking in direct reply to you, but just to continue the coversation of the overall thread.
This is an example of things that can be thought-provoking for me, from meta threads. Sometimes, advice sits differently on the OP (and readers) when they know the basis, either personal history or cites. That notion leads me to repeat basic personal history a lot, even though it's tedious to me, and I'm sure to people here who've read it before. (I was even called out as self-centered on one thread for recounting personal experience that I thought was relevant to the OP. The guy who called me out proceded to post a couple of imperative sentences about what the OP should do, an advice mode that would be pretty unhelpful to me if I were the OP. 🤷♀️)
One can't win, but if I'm going to bother replying to posts here, I want to keep trying to improve how I do that, as best as I understand it. ( Getting briefer and pithier is a continuing challenge, and I apologize to all for that very persistent failing.😆 )7 -
So have skimmed posts but want to share my story.
I have always dreamed of a flat stomach with well defined abs. I'm 37 and I have wanted that for over 20 years. I fell into the trap of crunches, extreme diets etc. Never actually lost the weight I needed to, and frankly just yo-yod and gained ending up at around 200lb before finally finding my feet 4 years ago, and lost 44lb. And I've kept it off for 3 years now.
I never got the abs I wanted, and thanks to reading these forums over the last 4 years, I have a healthier and more realistic expectation that it will probably never happen. And the reason it probably won't happen is I'm not willing to put in the time, and calorie reduction it would be necessary for me to achieve abs.
I'm 37, I have kids, a busy job, hobbies. I just don't have the mental load to go through what is required. And I love food too much. Plus blowt/period etc. Nah.
And that realisation has made me feel so much more comfortable in the body I have. I finally started wearing a bikini, something I never felt comfortable doing. I know I'm always going to have a few rolls, and sticky out bits. And I'm really happy with that.
And that's because I read a lot of threads with brutally honest answers. And I am so much healthier for it!12 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I see that you did reply now, which is good. (I'm somewhat flummoxed that, since you obviously know *how* to reach that goal, and with what you consider not to be optimum genetic potential, that you didn't then or now have "here's how I did it and how long it took" comments. I think that strongly relevant fairly detailed personal accounts are often quite helpful.)
But I'm really quoting to say this: I'd encourage you, when you have profoundly relevant experience, to post, even if someone's looking for some combo of advice, encouragement, and friends. I frequently do that on posts by older women who are concerned about the effects of aging on weight loss/fitness ambitions, whom I think I can advise or encourage, but I just say "I accept friend requests, but am a cr*p friend who rarely posts in that part of MFP" or something like that.
Share your experience to help (advise) or encourage people. That would be *great*.
Balanced advice happens on threads when people with experience/knowledge post and *create* balance.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »It's hard to blame someone for having unrealistic body goals. The whole diet and fitness culture is filled with liars. Let's take 200 pics and post the best we have, not the other 199 that looked like crap. Let's brag about our sub 10% body fat (if it really is, most lie about their body fat as if it matters) and leave out that we are most likely on gear. Let's bask in the glory of our flat stomach but leave out that we had a tummy tuck but just tell people how we work out like crazy.
Here is an example. You look at a magazine of a celebrity who got in killer shape for a movie. Much like a body builder or fitness competitor leading up to a competition so they can peak at the right moment. For them it's the stage, for the actor it's for filming. The magazine tells us what the actor did, of course leaving out the stuff they don't want to admit (steroids etc...). Now your average person reads this, wants to look like this and proceeds to make a lifestyle out of what a celebrity did for say 12 weeks leading up to filming. It's a false narrative from the very beginning...
I know what you mean, but even if the IG picture is filtered and whatever, they STILL accomplished a physique that was able to be improved slightly via filters/lighting/flexing that resulted in the picture that was posted. Its really no different than women with makeup; they're accentuating what already exists. So, I feel like if you arm yourself with the realization that you're not going to wake up and see that IG picture in the mirror, but with a lot of work you CAN wake up with a physique that can look like it with that filter, it's the same thing. People will post flexed/unflexed pictures and if they were posted separately I feel a lot of people would call the unflexed realistic and the flexed unrealistic when they're in fact the same exact physique. Heck, my PP is about 3 weeks pre comp with a pump and good lighting so it's admittedly optimized, but it's real and therefore realistic. I'm struggling with articulating this, I hope it makes sense!
I dunno, I'm a fan of dreaming big and when I see others doing that, it kills me to see anyone raining on that. Granted, that's my perspective and others may see what I view as "rain" to be guidance or a reality check.
I get that you may be less attuned to this as a male, but I think you may not have a clear view of just how manipulated some of the images of female "influencers" are, by photoshop and the like. And, yes, people believe them.
In the transparent cases, "booty gainz" and narrow waists are curiously accompanied by backgrounds where doorframes also bend in and out, hourglass style. But there are others who are clearly equally manipulated images, but either better at Photoshop or smart enough to pose with a solid-color plain background to hide the machinations.
From the standpoint of either Photoshop or genetics, it's not unusual to see misunderstandings about the slight abdominal swell (not "pooch" or belly fat) that most women have because of having a uterus and related female plumbing. It's not throwing cold water in a mean way to point out that most women do have that shape (not flattyFlatFLAT) even when very lean.
(There's a whole thread here about that. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10689837/does-this-uterus-make-my-stomach-look-fat/p1. The thread goes beyond that to show a range of women who've gone various ways along the route to minimal abdominal fat, under various conditions, but the whole point if you read the OP was the frequency of posts that have *actually unrealistic* expectations, at least for the overwhelming majority of us women's genetics. Keep in mind that we've seen photos from some of these women who think they have "belly fat" when it's pretty clear that they just have a normal, healthy shape, often with minimal/no belly fat at all. They've just been trained by the worst influencers to think normal shapes are Not Good.)IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I think your contribution to that thread was great. Mostly I saw in the thread a mix of some discouragement at the beginning, but mostly people calling him on the idea that he needs others to give him the motivation and hard truths that what he needs is discipline and a plan and that it may take a while, plus a couple of people who had achieved the goal and found it not worth the effort (or not good for them). I find the discipline-related posts, as well as those from people with experience, even if not positive, to be helpful contributions to the thread.
If I had the experience to contribute to a thread like that (which I do not), I'd probably have said that it's a great goal, but he doesn't yet know how his body will look at feel at different BF%s, so rather than making sub 9% the one successful result, why not get started and have a plan, but also have some intermediate goals and take stock of how he looks and feels at different %ages. I don't think that would be discouraging. I also would suggest (if there were experienced people on the thread) that if he wants to talk through his plan here, it might be a great way to get feedback on a plan and timetable.
Just a mild observation: I see that to be true on that thread, because I know some of the posters' history from other threads. For someone new here, since that history wasn't recounted, but just the negative end points, it may've come across as purely theoretical negativity, especially given the now-current profile pics or lack thereof.
@IronIsMyTherapy, I think it's fine, on someone else's thread, to ask "from what basis do you say that, as my experience has been different". It may help you get to know regular posters (to the good or bad 😆), and it will help the OP know who is giving experience-based advice (or truly science-based though theoretical advice), vs. just typing less knowledgeable opinions.janejellyroll wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.
And for the record, I do think it's helpful to point out in specific situations where someone isn't being realistic.
I think of @AnnPT77 and her amazing "arms" post. I spent so much time hating my arms. The problem was never my arms. It was my goals!
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
My approach to giving advice is kind of jaded. I'm super passionate about helping people and have spent many hours both online and in person giving advice to only have it ignored (maybe bc I've never charged for it). Once, a lady I'd seen in the gym a lot but never spoken to interrupted me mid deadlift session and asked for help with her diet. I spent about 30 minutes right then and there walking her through macros, estimating TDEE, blah blah to have her finish off with "maybe I'll just try Isagenix again..." Welp, thanks for ruining what was a great workout. I used to make meal and workout plans for free, often to the same end. Now when people ask me for help, I say "meet me at the gym at 4AM tomorrow" as a qualifier. Again, jaded view but it seems about 1 of 10 people that ask for advice actually act on it. I HAVE had those that do and dang are they rewarding! But yeah, I don't like giving unsolicited advice, and when it IS solicited, I like to get a feel of commitment before investing a ton of time.
I can understand feeling that way. And it's harder to scale a response (i.e., decide how much time to invest) when in a formum vs. in person, since we don't get the subtle feedback from things like facial expressions to know when we're wasting our time.
On the flip side of that, in a forum, there's the potential that we're giving information to people who are reading but not posting. That's a bit of a crapshoot, admittedly, but I'm quite confident it happens. (I've posted the arm rant that Jane's referring to so many flipping times that I'm bleeping sick of doing it. Often, I'm just using search to find a previous response, and bracketing the main point with some small thread-specific stuff. I believe Jane has mentioned before that she found it helpful, but I'm periodically surprised by positive references to it in threads from women who I didn't even realize had seen it.)
While I understand why you'd not take the time to formulate a detailed advice post (totally legit), it's still hard for me to understand why you'd post in critique of people who did respond in that case (and perhaps other cases not linked). One of the things that I've come to believe about volunteer organizations of all sorts (of which MFP is a small case), is that if I'm not putting in the work to make the volunteer functions run, I don't have much firm ground to stand on, when criticizing how others who do put in the work go about doing it.
I don't mean to be harsh here, just frank. As I said earlier in the thread, I think there's value in occasional discussions like this one, especially now that we have something specific to focus on.
I guess I dont see warning someone of how much work is required to do something as helpful, so I view it as negative. Which obviously varies person to person. If someone told me it would take me over 10 years to accomplish my goal, that probably would've been so daunting I wouldn't have tried. My approach is to get them to take one step, then another. So yes, I can see how people may not view the comments as negatively as I do but having climbed that mountain, if anyone says they also want to climb it, I'd never say "do you realize how high it is? How cold it gets? How many dont make it?" but rather "Awesome! Get your boots on!". I think those reality checks can be as discouraging as informative so personally I'd be hesitant to put them out there. I realize that's not everyones perspective which is why I started this discussion. I'm not right, but I'd argue neither are the people that disagree. I believe the answer is dependant on a lot of factors. Hopefully that makes sense lol.
So you would send someone up the mountain with just boots? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. The mountain has to be taken seriously.
Now in the case of an aesthetic physique it is probably not life or death. In some situations I guess there is financial gain to be made from it but it could also just be a just-for-me milestone. However there is a personal investment in any case and that is a decision to be taken seriously. A good decision is a result of reviewing all the data not just the data that is biased in favor of the decision you want.
I would rather someone try and talk me out of a decision because then if I can choose to go forward anyway then I feel more comfortable that it is the right choice.
You have placed a high value on your accomplishment and you assume that anyone considering it will feel the same after the investment. You are not considering that someone may actually accomplish the same goal and regret all that was required to get there. This is what happens in the real world all the time. It is even a very common expression "Be careful what you wish for because you may get it."
There is a big difference between mentoring and cheerleading.7 -
There is no good nor bad, only thinking makes it so.0
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There's nothing wrong with encouragement. But there is a line to honesty as well. For example at 5'7" and my age, my chances of dunking a basketball ISN'T realistic. I could train and train and train, and still NOT be able to dunk due to genetics. There's NOTHING wrong with being honest if what the person is trying to achieve really isn't realistic to reach.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »I think the reason people say "unrealistic" is because it requires a lot of hard work and most people will never achieve it. Like with sports, for example. An adult can start skating when they are in their 30s and maybe they have a goal of landing a double loop. This is unrealistic but not impossible. Are there adult skaters who started skating in their 30s who can land double loops? Yes! But it's not correct to say that Every one can be able to do that. Most people don't have the time or health to be able to jump like that. I've been skating for 12 years as an adult and I still cannot do more than single rotations. Yes, there may be tens of thousands of people who can do "unrealistic" goals, but there are also 7 billion people in the world. Once you have that perspective, it's understandable why people say certain things are actually unrealistic.
Yes, but even if it would take monumental effort to achieve, why do people feel the need to adjust someone's view on what is realistic to fit their own stunted view? What do they gain by it? My absolute favorite thing to do in fitness is exactly the opposite; make someone realize they're selling themselves short and that what they consider impossible is, in fact, possible with hard work and consistency.
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