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"Unrealistic" body goals
Replies
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So have skimmed posts but want to share my story.
I have always dreamed of a flat stomach with well defined abs. I'm 37 and I have wanted that for over 20 years. I fell into the trap of crunches, extreme diets etc. Never actually lost the weight I needed to, and frankly just yo-yod and gained ending up at around 200lb before finally finding my feet 4 years ago, and lost 44lb. And I've kept it off for 3 years now.
I never got the abs I wanted, and thanks to reading these forums over the last 4 years, I have a healthier and more realistic expectation that it will probably never happen. And the reason it probably won't happen is I'm not willing to put in the time, and calorie reduction it would be necessary for me to achieve abs.
I'm 37, I have kids, a busy job, hobbies. I just don't have the mental load to go through what is required. And I love food too much. Plus blowt/period etc. Nah.
And that realisation has made me feel so much more comfortable in the body I have. I finally started wearing a bikini, something I never felt comfortable doing. I know I'm always going to have a few rolls, and sticky out bits. And I'm really happy with that.
And that's because I read a lot of threads with brutally honest answers. And I am so much healthier for it!
This almost made me tear up. I can’t tell you how wonderful it is to hear a woman growing to love themselves and be confident not only in their looks but decisions. I can’t love this post enough.8 -
There's nothing wrong with encouragement. But there is a line to honesty as well. For example at 5'7" and my age, my chances of dunking a basketball ISN'T realistic. I could train and train and train, and still NOT be able to dunk due to genetics. There's NOTHING wrong with being honest if what the person is trying to achieve really isn't realistic to reach.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »I think the reason people say "unrealistic" is because it requires a lot of hard work and most people will never achieve it. Like with sports, for example. An adult can start skating when they are in their 30s and maybe they have a goal of landing a double loop. This is unrealistic but not impossible. Are there adult skaters who started skating in their 30s who can land double loops? Yes! But it's not correct to say that Every one can be able to do that. Most people don't have the time or health to be able to jump like that. I've been skating for 12 years as an adult and I still cannot do more than single rotations. Yes, there may be tens of thousands of people who can do "unrealistic" goals, but there are also 7 billion people in the world. Once you have that perspective, it's understandable why people say certain things are actually unrealistic.
Yes, but even if it would take monumental effort to achieve, why do people feel the need to adjust someone's view on what is realistic to fit their own stunted view? What do they gain by it? My absolute favorite thing to do in fitness is exactly the opposite; make someone realize they're selling themselves short and that what they consider impossible is, in fact, possible with hard work and consistency.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes, but the majority of things fitness related are possible through sheer effort, not ability. Of course things like becoming an IFBB pro or USAPL athlete or CrossFit Games contender introduce genetics and ability but thats not what I'm talking about. I feel that as a society, we are drifting further away from a lean physique being considered attainable and relegating it to a select few with the right genetics. In my opinion, it should be the opposite and at one time it was. An 1800s circus fat man is someone we see almost daily and are increasingly told it's ok. Getting off topic a little, but I feel they're connected.2 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »In the last few days I've seen a girl in her 20s be told that wanting a flat belly is unrealistic and a guy be told that sub 10% bf was largely genetics.
I will take the less popular view and agree with the statement above, and in no way am I being rude, but basing my feedback on personal interaction with a body builder whom I photographed and he said dropping below 10% is done temporarily by males for competitions it is not a sustainable body fat level, (peak athletes excluded), don't let the movie actors, or models fool you, they are miserable in single digits and drop below that for a show, a competition, or a movie scene.5 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »In the last few days I've seen a girl in her 20s be told that wanting a flat belly is unrealistic and a guy be told that sub 10% bf was largely genetics.
I will take the less popular view and agree with the statement above, and in no way am I being rude, but basing my feedback on personal interaction with a body builder whom I photographed and he said dropping below 10% is done temporarily by males for competitions it is not a sustainable body fat level, (peak athletes excluded), don't let the movie actors, or models fool you, they are miserable in single digits and drop below that for a show, a competition, or a movie scene.
I've competed and been single digit many times and for months at a time. Year round sustainability was never part of the discussion though, but if it was, you'd be partially right. It's not enjoyable for many but I personally know a lot of guys that stay shredded and enjoy it.1 -
From my Twitter feed...just gonna leave this here.
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IMO it's not necessarily the goal that's un-realistic. It's what it will take to achieve the goal. I've seen many on here say, "I've been dieting and exercising for 4 weeks and nothing. What gives? What am I doing wrong?"
Un-realistic expectations.
People need to learn how to manage their expectations...9 -
IMO it's not necessarily the goal that's un-realistic. It's what it will take to achieve the goal. I've seen many on here say, "I've been dieting and exercising for 4 weeks and nothing. What gives? What am I doing wrong?"
Un-realistic expectations.
People need to learn how to manage their expectations...
Hmm. Maybe my issue is with people calling what it will take to achieve that goal "unreasonable" or "too much" too quick, not the goal itself.2 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I see that you did reply now, which is good. (I'm somewhat flummoxed that, since you obviously know *how* to reach that goal, and with what you consider not to be optimum genetic potential, that you didn't then or now have "here's how I did it and how long it took" comments. I think that strongly relevant fairly detailed personal accounts are often quite helpful.)
But I'm really quoting to say this: I'd encourage you, when you have profoundly relevant experience, to post, even if someone's looking for some combo of advice, encouragement, and friends. I frequently do that on posts by older women who are concerned about the effects of aging on weight loss/fitness ambitions, whom I think I can advise or encourage, but I just say "I accept friend requests, but am a cr*p friend who rarely posts in that part of MFP" or something like that.
Share your experience to help (advise) or encourage people. That would be *great*.
Balanced advice happens on threads when people with experience/knowledge post and *create* balance.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »It's hard to blame someone for having unrealistic body goals. The whole diet and fitness culture is filled with liars. Let's take 200 pics and post the best we have, not the other 199 that looked like crap. Let's brag about our sub 10% body fat (if it really is, most lie about their body fat as if it matters) and leave out that we are most likely on gear. Let's bask in the glory of our flat stomach but leave out that we had a tummy tuck but just tell people how we work out like crazy.
Here is an example. You look at a magazine of a celebrity who got in killer shape for a movie. Much like a body builder or fitness competitor leading up to a competition so they can peak at the right moment. For them it's the stage, for the actor it's for filming. The magazine tells us what the actor did, of course leaving out the stuff they don't want to admit (steroids etc...). Now your average person reads this, wants to look like this and proceeds to make a lifestyle out of what a celebrity did for say 12 weeks leading up to filming. It's a false narrative from the very beginning...
I know what you mean, but even if the IG picture is filtered and whatever, they STILL accomplished a physique that was able to be improved slightly via filters/lighting/flexing that resulted in the picture that was posted. Its really no different than women with makeup; they're accentuating what already exists. So, I feel like if you arm yourself with the realization that you're not going to wake up and see that IG picture in the mirror, but with a lot of work you CAN wake up with a physique that can look like it with that filter, it's the same thing. People will post flexed/unflexed pictures and if they were posted separately I feel a lot of people would call the unflexed realistic and the flexed unrealistic when they're in fact the same exact physique. Heck, my PP is about 3 weeks pre comp with a pump and good lighting so it's admittedly optimized, but it's real and therefore realistic. I'm struggling with articulating this, I hope it makes sense!
I dunno, I'm a fan of dreaming big and when I see others doing that, it kills me to see anyone raining on that. Granted, that's my perspective and others may see what I view as "rain" to be guidance or a reality check.
I get that you may be less attuned to this as a male, but I think you may not have a clear view of just how manipulated some of the images of female "influencers" are, by photoshop and the like. And, yes, people believe them.
In the transparent cases, "booty gainz" and narrow waists are curiously accompanied by backgrounds where doorframes also bend in and out, hourglass style. But there are others who are clearly equally manipulated images, but either better at Photoshop or smart enough to pose with a solid-color plain background to hide the machinations.
From the standpoint of either Photoshop or genetics, it's not unusual to see misunderstandings about the slight abdominal swell (not "pooch" or belly fat) that most women have because of having a uterus and related female plumbing. It's not throwing cold water in a mean way to point out that most women do have that shape (not flattyFlatFLAT) even when very lean.
(There's a whole thread here about that. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10689837/does-this-uterus-make-my-stomach-look-fat/p1. The thread goes beyond that to show a range of women who've gone various ways along the route to minimal abdominal fat, under various conditions, but the whole point if you read the OP was the frequency of posts that have *actually unrealistic* expectations, at least for the overwhelming majority of us women's genetics. Keep in mind that we've seen photos from some of these women who think they have "belly fat" when it's pretty clear that they just have a normal, healthy shape, often with minimal/no belly fat at all. They've just been trained by the worst influencers to think normal shapes are Not Good.)IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I think your contribution to that thread was great. Mostly I saw in the thread a mix of some discouragement at the beginning, but mostly people calling him on the idea that he needs others to give him the motivation and hard truths that what he needs is discipline and a plan and that it may take a while, plus a couple of people who had achieved the goal and found it not worth the effort (or not good for them). I find the discipline-related posts, as well as those from people with experience, even if not positive, to be helpful contributions to the thread.
If I had the experience to contribute to a thread like that (which I do not), I'd probably have said that it's a great goal, but he doesn't yet know how his body will look at feel at different BF%s, so rather than making sub 9% the one successful result, why not get started and have a plan, but also have some intermediate goals and take stock of how he looks and feels at different %ages. I don't think that would be discouraging. I also would suggest (if there were experienced people on the thread) that if he wants to talk through his plan here, it might be a great way to get feedback on a plan and timetable.
Just a mild observation: I see that to be true on that thread, because I know some of the posters' history from other threads. For someone new here, since that history wasn't recounted, but just the negative end points, it may've come across as purely theoretical negativity, especially given the now-current profile pics or lack thereof.
@IronIsMyTherapy, I think it's fine, on someone else's thread, to ask "from what basis do you say that, as my experience has been different". It may help you get to know regular posters (to the good or bad 😆), and it will help the OP know who is giving experience-based advice (or truly science-based though theoretical advice), vs. just typing less knowledgeable opinions.janejellyroll wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.
And for the record, I do think it's helpful to point out in specific situations where someone isn't being realistic.
I think of @AnnPT77 and her amazing "arms" post. I spent so much time hating my arms. The problem was never my arms. It was my goals!
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
My approach to giving advice is kind of jaded. I'm super passionate about helping people and have spent many hours both online and in person giving advice to only have it ignored (maybe bc I've never charged for it). Once, a lady I'd seen in the gym a lot but never spoken to interrupted me mid deadlift session and asked for help with her diet. I spent about 30 minutes right then and there walking her through macros, estimating TDEE, blah blah to have her finish off with "maybe I'll just try Isagenix again..." Welp, thanks for ruining what was a great workout. I used to make meal and workout plans for free, often to the same end. Now when people ask me for help, I say "meet me at the gym at 4AM tomorrow" as a qualifier. Again, jaded view but it seems about 1 of 10 people that ask for advice actually act on it. I HAVE had those that do and dang are they rewarding! But yeah, I don't like giving unsolicited advice, and when it IS solicited, I like to get a feel of commitment before investing a ton of time.
This post of yours kept bothering me and I finally figured out why. You say that you've helped people in the past and have gotten burned, disappointed, because they gave up and you invested time and effort in them. This is a legitimate complaint. But, I don't understand your calling out posters that do do vetting before helping. You should have done it and could have avoided some of the situations that you described. Your defense now is to not give a realistic comment--just "Rah-rah!! Go for it!" Sorry, but being realistic is not the same as discouraging. Because you have managed to arrive where many would like to go, what you say can carry more weight. I think you should use that influence wisely.9 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IMO it's not necessarily the goal that's un-realistic. It's what it will take to achieve the goal. I've seen many on here say, "I've been dieting and exercising for 4 weeks and nothing. What gives? What am I doing wrong?"
Un-realistic expectations.
People need to learn how to manage their expectations...
Hmm. Maybe my issue is with people calling what it will take to achieve that goal "unreasonable" or "too much" too quick, not the goal itself.
That’s what my thought is...0 -
A lean physique is POSSIBLE to anyone willing to put in the effort to achieve it, that's true. What isn't possible is for someone wanting a body like say Gweneth Paltrow, if their body structure doesn't match hers. There are lots of females that would love hour glass figures, but if their shoulder width is much smaller than their hip width by structure, it's NEVER gonna happen. People have to work within their genetics to achieve the lean body that is within their own structure.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »
There's nothing wrong with encouragement. But there is a line to honesty as well. For example at 5'7" and my age, my chances of dunking a basketball ISN'T realistic. I could train and train and train, and still NOT be able to dunk due to genetics. There's NOTHING wrong with being honest if what the person is trying to achieve really isn't realistic to reach.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »I think the reason people say "unrealistic" is because it requires a lot of hard work and most people will never achieve it. Like with sports, for example. An adult can start skating when they are in their 30s and maybe they have a goal of landing a double loop. This is unrealistic but not impossible. Are there adult skaters who started skating in their 30s who can land double loops? Yes! But it's not correct to say that Every one can be able to do that. Most people don't have the time or health to be able to jump like that. I've been skating for 12 years as an adult and I still cannot do more than single rotations. Yes, there may be tens of thousands of people who can do "unrealistic" goals, but there are also 7 billion people in the world. Once you have that perspective, it's understandable why people say certain things are actually unrealistic.
Yes, but even if it would take monumental effort to achieve, why do people feel the need to adjust someone's view on what is realistic to fit their own stunted view? What do they gain by it? My absolute favorite thing to do in fitness is exactly the opposite; make someone realize they're selling themselves short and that what they consider impossible is, in fact, possible with hard work and consistency.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes, but the majority of things fitness related are possible through sheer effort, not ability. Of course things like becoming an IFBB pro or USAPL athlete or CrossFit Games contender introduce genetics and ability but thats not what I'm talking about. I feel that as a society, we are drifting further away from a lean physique being considered attainable and relegating it to a select few with the right genetics. In my opinion, it should be the opposite and at one time it was. An 1800s circus fat man is someone we see almost daily and are increasingly told it's ok. Getting off topic a little, but I feel they're connected.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
12 -
A lean physique is POSSIBLE to anyone willing to put in the effort to achieve it, that's true. What isn't possible is for someone wanting a body like say Gweneth Paltrow, if their body structure doesn't match hers. There are lots of females that would love hour glass figures, but if their shoulder with is much smaller than their hip with by structure, it's NEVER gonna happen. People have to work within their genetics to achieve the lean body that is within their own structure.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »
There's nothing wrong with encouragement. But there is a line to honesty as well. For example at 5'7" and my age, my chances of dunking a basketball ISN'T realistic. I could train and train and train, and still NOT be able to dunk due to genetics. There's NOTHING wrong with being honest if what the person is trying to achieve really isn't realistic to reach.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »I think the reason people say "unrealistic" is because it requires a lot of hard work and most people will never achieve it. Like with sports, for example. An adult can start skating when they are in their 30s and maybe they have a goal of landing a double loop. This is unrealistic but not impossible. Are there adult skaters who started skating in their 30s who can land double loops? Yes! But it's not correct to say that Every one can be able to do that. Most people don't have the time or health to be able to jump like that. I've been skating for 12 years as an adult and I still cannot do more than single rotations. Yes, there may be tens of thousands of people who can do "unrealistic" goals, but there are also 7 billion people in the world. Once you have that perspective, it's understandable why people say certain things are actually unrealistic.
Yes, but even if it would take monumental effort to achieve, why do people feel the need to adjust someone's view on what is realistic to fit their own stunted view? What do they gain by it? My absolute favorite thing to do in fitness is exactly the opposite; make someone realize they're selling themselves short and that what they consider impossible is, in fact, possible with hard work and consistency.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes, but the majority of things fitness related are possible through sheer effort, not ability. Of course things like becoming an IFBB pro or USAPL athlete or CrossFit Games contender introduce genetics and ability but thats not what I'm talking about. I feel that as a society, we are drifting further away from a lean physique being considered attainable and relegating it to a select few with the right genetics. In my opinion, it should be the opposite and at one time it was. An 1800s circus fat man is someone we see almost daily and are increasingly told it's ok. Getting off topic a little, but I feel they're connected.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Correct.0 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IMO it's not necessarily the goal that's un-realistic. It's what it will take to achieve the goal. I've seen many on here say, "I've been dieting and exercising for 4 weeks and nothing. What gives? What am I doing wrong?"
Un-realistic expectations.
People need to learn how to manage their expectations...
Hmm. Maybe my issue is with people calling what it will take to achieve that goal "unreasonable" or "too much" too quick, not the goal itself.
I've reread the thread you linked several times (it's short 😆). Literally, no one said that. The closest was the "Victoria's Secret model" remark, which was pretty clearly a toss-off.
There are comments about it being difficult, asking if OP understands genetics is a factor, talking about discipline being more important than motivation, "Go for it" in several forms (often with some caveats that it will take a while), and one post from someone who reports some of the common downsides of achieving extreme leanness.
The "unrealistic" and "too much" are, IMO, your interpretations of those comments, not the comments themselves on their face, and all we can do to judge intent of people who replied is to look at those comments . . . which we all do through a filter of our own biases and psychololgical traits.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »
There's nothing wrong with encouragement. But there is a line to honesty as well. For example at 5'7" and my age, my chances of dunking a basketball ISN'T realistic. I could train and train and train, and still NOT be able to dunk due to genetics. There's NOTHING wrong with being honest if what the person is trying to achieve really isn't realistic to reach.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »I think the reason people say "unrealistic" is because it requires a lot of hard work and most people will never achieve it. Like with sports, for example. An adult can start skating when they are in their 30s and maybe they have a goal of landing a double loop. This is unrealistic but not impossible. Are there adult skaters who started skating in their 30s who can land double loops? Yes! But it's not correct to say that Every one can be able to do that. Most people don't have the time or health to be able to jump like that. I've been skating for 12 years as an adult and I still cannot do more than single rotations. Yes, there may be tens of thousands of people who can do "unrealistic" goals, but there are also 7 billion people in the world. Once you have that perspective, it's understandable why people say certain things are actually unrealistic.
Yes, but even if it would take monumental effort to achieve, why do people feel the need to adjust someone's view on what is realistic to fit their own stunted view? What do they gain by it? My absolute favorite thing to do in fitness is exactly the opposite; make someone realize they're selling themselves short and that what they consider impossible is, in fact, possible with hard work and consistency.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes, but the majority of things fitness related are possible through sheer effort, not ability. Of course things like becoming an IFBB pro or USAPL athlete or CrossFit Games contender introduce genetics and ability but thats not what I'm talking about. I feel that as a society, we are drifting further away from a lean physique being considered attainable and relegating it to a select few with the right genetics. In my opinion, it should be the opposite and at one time it was. An 1800s circus fat man is someone we see almost daily and are increasingly told it's ok. Getting off topic a little, but I feel they're connected.
I agree that we're seeing more obese people over the last 40 years or so, but the idea that it was historically normal to be what (I think) we'd refer to as "lean" in threads like this . . . I think that's inaccurate.
People had less bodyfat. The defined muscularity was not common, nor was single digit body fat coipled with muscularity. A more wiry than defined build was probably more common among average people, even people with quite intense physical jobs. What we'd call "skinny" now was very common, even among demographics with fairly physical work (farmers are the ones I'm most familiar with).
Most of the handsome young male film idols of the 1940s-1960s aren't what we'd consider normal in that same kind of group today - much less shredded, generally, even at movie swimsuit time. To the extent there are photos of circus strongmen from the 1800s, most are fairly muscular, but still I think on average a bit short of what we'd consider normal in bodybuilders today (even sub-elite but serious ones) Further, many of those 1800s strongmen don't have extremely low bodyfat. Often, there is enough bodyfat that abs don't show, though the rest of the physique suggests that they're there under that bit of fat layer. There have been bodybuilders per se (appearance focused physique) for a very long time, but they've always been a small minority.
The appearance standards for "good looking fit normal guy" are more defined and muscular now/recently, than has been true over my lifetime (b. 1955). Am I saying the standards are unrealistic? No, I'm saying that they've changed, noticably, toward low bodyfat and defined muscularity.
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I think a lot of us come to MFP feeling like big, fat, unlovable blobs who need to morph into supermodels overnight by suddenly going from eating all the junk to starving ourselves and hitting the gym daily.
There are so many things wrong with the above, it's almost impossible to say where to start.
A lot of us need to be gently lifted out of a really dark place and be shown the tools to find a more sustainable path and more realistic thinking. For most people, becoming a supermodel is impossible. Once you've been a certain weight for long enough, the skin will never snap back without surgery. You can't change your height or your bone structure. It's not cruel to point that out, if done sensitively.
In the long run, the reason why people fail at diets, is because they set themselves up with unrealistic goals and feel bad from failing and give up. By encouraging people to think more realistically, you help them avoid that feeling of being overwhelmed and falling off, hard.
We can learn to stop comparing ourselves to Instagram people and aim to be better versions of ourselves. Who knows if our bellies will be flat by the end, but they could definitely be flatter. I know if I keep going I am never going to look like the beautiful 20-something version of me, and that's OK. I just want to be healthier than I am now. I couldn't think like that and I couldn't see that in the beginning. Weight loss is such an epic mental quest.
No one owes anyone anything on a forum like this where anyone can register and be whoever they want to be, but most people here seem to have lived through some demons and are compassionate enough to recognise other people facing that same struggle and to want to help them. Encouraging people to see their own reality and make their peace with that is IMHO a kind and helpful thing to do.
Personally, I'm grateful for all the advice that has been given to me since I started posting, whether or not I've listened to it at the time. I can't say I'm approaching my weight loss perfectly, but I'm approaching it a lot saner than when I started... and I'm trying to get better all the time.14 -
I would just tell her to try her best and be gentle on herself. It's not my place to destroy someone's dreams, especially with no real evidence that I am right.0
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My sister is morbidly obese, has been that way for most of her life and will probably stay that way. I don't think she lacks "discipline" or whatever that was stated here. She went to school for a very long time, got a good solid job. Wakes up every morning and rarely miss a day of work.
I think it's a case of people being disciplined in other areas and not putting as much efforts in their fitness and health. I don't know if that makes sense?
Because I can say she's probably more disciplined and organized than me but in other areas of her life.9 -
@Mellouk89 Makes complete sense.
Why can people get themselves out of bed every single morning without fail for their good job but not show UP for themselves. There's only choices and consequences.7 -
And ironically if their health fails, then they can't go to work at that job they are so disciplined for.Diatonic12 wrote: »@Mellouk89 Makes complete sense.
Why can people get themselves out of bed every single morning without fail for their good job but not show UP for themselves. There's only choices and consequences.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
6 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I see that you did reply now, which is good. (I'm somewhat flummoxed that, since you obviously know *how* to reach that goal, and with what you consider not to be optimum genetic potential, that you didn't then or now have "here's how I did it and how long it took" comments. I think that strongly relevant fairly detailed personal accounts are often quite helpful.)
But I'm really quoting to say this: I'd encourage you, when you have profoundly relevant experience, to post, even if someone's looking for some combo of advice, encouragement, and friends. I frequently do that on posts by older women who are concerned about the effects of aging on weight loss/fitness ambitions, whom I think I can advise or encourage, but I just say "I accept friend requests, but am a cr*p friend who rarely posts in that part of MFP" or something like that.
Share your experience to help (advise) or encourage people. That would be *great*.
Balanced advice happens on threads when people with experience/knowledge post and *create* balance.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »It's hard to blame someone for having unrealistic body goals. The whole diet and fitness culture is filled with liars. Let's take 200 pics and post the best we have, not the other 199 that looked like crap. Let's brag about our sub 10% body fat (if it really is, most lie about their body fat as if it matters) and leave out that we are most likely on gear. Let's bask in the glory of our flat stomach but leave out that we had a tummy tuck but just tell people how we work out like crazy.
Here is an example. You look at a magazine of a celebrity who got in killer shape for a movie. Much like a body builder or fitness competitor leading up to a competition so they can peak at the right moment. For them it's the stage, for the actor it's for filming. The magazine tells us what the actor did, of course leaving out the stuff they don't want to admit (steroids etc...). Now your average person reads this, wants to look like this and proceeds to make a lifestyle out of what a celebrity did for say 12 weeks leading up to filming. It's a false narrative from the very beginning...
I know what you mean, but even if the IG picture is filtered and whatever, they STILL accomplished a physique that was able to be improved slightly via filters/lighting/flexing that resulted in the picture that was posted. Its really no different than women with makeup; they're accentuating what already exists. So, I feel like if you arm yourself with the realization that you're not going to wake up and see that IG picture in the mirror, but with a lot of work you CAN wake up with a physique that can look like it with that filter, it's the same thing. People will post flexed/unflexed pictures and if they were posted separately I feel a lot of people would call the unflexed realistic and the flexed unrealistic when they're in fact the same exact physique. Heck, my PP is about 3 weeks pre comp with a pump and good lighting so it's admittedly optimized, but it's real and therefore realistic. I'm struggling with articulating this, I hope it makes sense!
I dunno, I'm a fan of dreaming big and when I see others doing that, it kills me to see anyone raining on that. Granted, that's my perspective and others may see what I view as "rain" to be guidance or a reality check.
I get that you may be less attuned to this as a male, but I think you may not have a clear view of just how manipulated some of the images of female "influencers" are, by photoshop and the like. And, yes, people believe them.
In the transparent cases, "booty gainz" and narrow waists are curiously accompanied by backgrounds where doorframes also bend in and out, hourglass style. But there are others who are clearly equally manipulated images, but either better at Photoshop or smart enough to pose with a solid-color plain background to hide the machinations.
From the standpoint of either Photoshop or genetics, it's not unusual to see misunderstandings about the slight abdominal swell (not "pooch" or belly fat) that most women have because of having a uterus and related female plumbing. It's not throwing cold water in a mean way to point out that most women do have that shape (not flattyFlatFLAT) even when very lean.
(There's a whole thread here about that. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10689837/does-this-uterus-make-my-stomach-look-fat/p1. The thread goes beyond that to show a range of women who've gone various ways along the route to minimal abdominal fat, under various conditions, but the whole point if you read the OP was the frequency of posts that have *actually unrealistic* expectations, at least for the overwhelming majority of us women's genetics. Keep in mind that we've seen photos from some of these women who think they have "belly fat" when it's pretty clear that they just have a normal, healthy shape, often with minimal/no belly fat at all. They've just been trained by the worst influencers to think normal shapes are Not Good.)IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I think your contribution to that thread was great. Mostly I saw in the thread a mix of some discouragement at the beginning, but mostly people calling him on the idea that he needs others to give him the motivation and hard truths that what he needs is discipline and a plan and that it may take a while, plus a couple of people who had achieved the goal and found it not worth the effort (or not good for them). I find the discipline-related posts, as well as those from people with experience, even if not positive, to be helpful contributions to the thread.
If I had the experience to contribute to a thread like that (which I do not), I'd probably have said that it's a great goal, but he doesn't yet know how his body will look at feel at different BF%s, so rather than making sub 9% the one successful result, why not get started and have a plan, but also have some intermediate goals and take stock of how he looks and feels at different %ages. I don't think that would be discouraging. I also would suggest (if there were experienced people on the thread) that if he wants to talk through his plan here, it might be a great way to get feedback on a plan and timetable.
Just a mild observation: I see that to be true on that thread, because I know some of the posters' history from other threads. For someone new here, since that history wasn't recounted, but just the negative end points, it may've come across as purely theoretical negativity, especially given the now-current profile pics or lack thereof.
@IronIsMyTherapy, I think it's fine, on someone else's thread, to ask "from what basis do you say that, as my experience has been different". It may help you get to know regular posters (to the good or bad 😆), and it will help the OP know who is giving experience-based advice (or truly science-based though theoretical advice), vs. just typing less knowledgeable opinions.janejellyroll wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.
And for the record, I do think it's helpful to point out in specific situations where someone isn't being realistic.
I think of @AnnPT77 and her amazing "arms" post. I spent so much time hating my arms. The problem was never my arms. It was my goals!
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
My approach to giving advice is kind of jaded. I'm super passionate about helping people and have spent many hours both online and in person giving advice to only have it ignored (maybe bc I've never charged for it). Once, a lady I'd seen in the gym a lot but never spoken to interrupted me mid deadlift session and asked for help with her diet. I spent about 30 minutes right then and there walking her through macros, estimating TDEE, blah blah to have her finish off with "maybe I'll just try Isagenix again..." Welp, thanks for ruining what was a great workout. I used to make meal and workout plans for free, often to the same end. Now when people ask me for help, I say "meet me at the gym at 4AM tomorrow" as a qualifier. Again, jaded view but it seems about 1 of 10 people that ask for advice actually act on it. I HAVE had those that do and dang are they rewarding! But yeah, I don't like giving unsolicited advice, and when it IS solicited, I like to get a feel of commitment before investing a ton of time.
I can understand feeling that way. And it's harder to scale a response (i.e., decide how much time to invest) when in a formum vs. in person, since we don't get the subtle feedback from things like facial expressions to know when we're wasting our time.
On the flip side of that, in a forum, there's the potential that we're giving information to people who are reading but not posting. That's a bit of a crapshoot, admittedly, but I'm quite confident it happens. (I've posted the arm rant that Jane's referring to so many flipping times that I'm bleeping sick of doing it. Often, I'm just using search to find a previous response, and bracketing the main point with some small thread-specific stuff. I believe Jane has mentioned before that she found it helpful, but I'm periodically surprised by positive references to it in threads from women who I didn't even realize had seen it.)
While I understand why you'd not take the time to formulate a detailed advice post (totally legit), it's still hard for me to understand why you'd post in critique of people who did respond in that case (and perhaps other cases not linked). One of the things that I've come to believe about volunteer organizations of all sorts (of which MFP is a small case), is that if I'm not putting in the work to make the volunteer functions run, I don't have much firm ground to stand on, when criticizing how others who do put in the work go about doing it.
I don't mean to be harsh here, just frank. As I said earlier in the thread, I think there's value in occasional discussions like this one, especially now that we have something specific to focus on.
I guess I dont see warning someone of how much work is required to do something as helpful, so I view it as negative. Which obviously varies person to person. If someone told me it would take me over 10 years to accomplish my goal, that probably would've been so daunting I wouldn't have tried. My approach is to get them to take one step, then another. So yes, I can see how people may not view the comments as negatively as I do but having climbed that mountain, if anyone says they also want to climb it, I'd never say "do you realize how high it is? How cold it gets? How many dont make it?" but rather "Awesome! Get your boots on!". I think those reality checks can be as discouraging as informative so personally I'd be hesitant to put them out there. I realize that's not everyones perspective which is why I started this discussion. I'm not right, but I'd argue neither are the people that disagree. I believe the answer is dependant on a lot of factors. Hopefully that makes sense lol.
I believe it is or could be helpful. You can make informed decisions based off the information you're offered. You can identify common pitfalls and avoid them. You can review successes and try to find what worked in them. You can form realistic expectations of how long it could take to accomplish your goal and decide whether you're up for it.
Imagine someone only slightly overweight wanting to lose 10kgs in two weeks. Or a new lifter " I want to bench press 325 in a week's time!"
"Awesome, get your boots on?" or "It would be risky to cut calories to such an extent to attempt such a huge loss in such a short space of time." / "It would be better to learn proper form first to avoid injury".
Where do you draw the line? Do you let someone jeopardize their health because you wouldn't want to discourage them?
An informed decision would be more likely to yield positive results than jumping head first while having a crowd cheering on the sideline for potentially damaging actions.
Sure, this isn't a black or white scenario. But on these forums few of us are fortunate enough to ever get to know someone else so well that we could predict what would motivate or demotivate them.
As such, most opt to share personal experiences or relevant information and merely hope the person on the receiving end can use it as tools to assist on their journey.8 -
nitalieben wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I see that you did reply now, which is good. (I'm somewhat flummoxed that, since you obviously know *how* to reach that goal, and with what you consider not to be optimum genetic potential, that you didn't then or now have "here's how I did it and how long it took" comments. I think that strongly relevant fairly detailed personal accounts are often quite helpful.)
But I'm really quoting to say this: I'd encourage you, when you have profoundly relevant experience, to post, even if someone's looking for some combo of advice, encouragement, and friends. I frequently do that on posts by older women who are concerned about the effects of aging on weight loss/fitness ambitions, whom I think I can advise or encourage, but I just say "I accept friend requests, but am a cr*p friend who rarely posts in that part of MFP" or something like that.
Share your experience to help (advise) or encourage people. That would be *great*.
Balanced advice happens on threads when people with experience/knowledge post and *create* balance.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »It's hard to blame someone for having unrealistic body goals. The whole diet and fitness culture is filled with liars. Let's take 200 pics and post the best we have, not the other 199 that looked like crap. Let's brag about our sub 10% body fat (if it really is, most lie about their body fat as if it matters) and leave out that we are most likely on gear. Let's bask in the glory of our flat stomach but leave out that we had a tummy tuck but just tell people how we work out like crazy.
Here is an example. You look at a magazine of a celebrity who got in killer shape for a movie. Much like a body builder or fitness competitor leading up to a competition so they can peak at the right moment. For them it's the stage, for the actor it's for filming. The magazine tells us what the actor did, of course leaving out the stuff they don't want to admit (steroids etc...). Now your average person reads this, wants to look like this and proceeds to make a lifestyle out of what a celebrity did for say 12 weeks leading up to filming. It's a false narrative from the very beginning...
I know what you mean, but even if the IG picture is filtered and whatever, they STILL accomplished a physique that was able to be improved slightly via filters/lighting/flexing that resulted in the picture that was posted. Its really no different than women with makeup; they're accentuating what already exists. So, I feel like if you arm yourself with the realization that you're not going to wake up and see that IG picture in the mirror, but with a lot of work you CAN wake up with a physique that can look like it with that filter, it's the same thing. People will post flexed/unflexed pictures and if they were posted separately I feel a lot of people would call the unflexed realistic and the flexed unrealistic when they're in fact the same exact physique. Heck, my PP is about 3 weeks pre comp with a pump and good lighting so it's admittedly optimized, but it's real and therefore realistic. I'm struggling with articulating this, I hope it makes sense!
I dunno, I'm a fan of dreaming big and when I see others doing that, it kills me to see anyone raining on that. Granted, that's my perspective and others may see what I view as "rain" to be guidance or a reality check.
I get that you may be less attuned to this as a male, but I think you may not have a clear view of just how manipulated some of the images of female "influencers" are, by photoshop and the like. And, yes, people believe them.
In the transparent cases, "booty gainz" and narrow waists are curiously accompanied by backgrounds where doorframes also bend in and out, hourglass style. But there are others who are clearly equally manipulated images, but either better at Photoshop or smart enough to pose with a solid-color plain background to hide the machinations.
From the standpoint of either Photoshop or genetics, it's not unusual to see misunderstandings about the slight abdominal swell (not "pooch" or belly fat) that most women have because of having a uterus and related female plumbing. It's not throwing cold water in a mean way to point out that most women do have that shape (not flattyFlatFLAT) even when very lean.
(There's a whole thread here about that. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10689837/does-this-uterus-make-my-stomach-look-fat/p1. The thread goes beyond that to show a range of women who've gone various ways along the route to minimal abdominal fat, under various conditions, but the whole point if you read the OP was the frequency of posts that have *actually unrealistic* expectations, at least for the overwhelming majority of us women's genetics. Keep in mind that we've seen photos from some of these women who think they have "belly fat" when it's pretty clear that they just have a normal, healthy shape, often with minimal/no belly fat at all. They've just been trained by the worst influencers to think normal shapes are Not Good.)IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I think your contribution to that thread was great. Mostly I saw in the thread a mix of some discouragement at the beginning, but mostly people calling him on the idea that he needs others to give him the motivation and hard truths that what he needs is discipline and a plan and that it may take a while, plus a couple of people who had achieved the goal and found it not worth the effort (or not good for them). I find the discipline-related posts, as well as those from people with experience, even if not positive, to be helpful contributions to the thread.
If I had the experience to contribute to a thread like that (which I do not), I'd probably have said that it's a great goal, but he doesn't yet know how his body will look at feel at different BF%s, so rather than making sub 9% the one successful result, why not get started and have a plan, but also have some intermediate goals and take stock of how he looks and feels at different %ages. I don't think that would be discouraging. I also would suggest (if there were experienced people on the thread) that if he wants to talk through his plan here, it might be a great way to get feedback on a plan and timetable.
Just a mild observation: I see that to be true on that thread, because I know some of the posters' history from other threads. For someone new here, since that history wasn't recounted, but just the negative end points, it may've come across as purely theoretical negativity, especially given the now-current profile pics or lack thereof.
@IronIsMyTherapy, I think it's fine, on someone else's thread, to ask "from what basis do you say that, as my experience has been different". It may help you get to know regular posters (to the good or bad 😆), and it will help the OP know who is giving experience-based advice (or truly science-based though theoretical advice), vs. just typing less knowledgeable opinions.janejellyroll wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.
And for the record, I do think it's helpful to point out in specific situations where someone isn't being realistic.
I think of @AnnPT77 and her amazing "arms" post. I spent so much time hating my arms. The problem was never my arms. It was my goals!
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
My approach to giving advice is kind of jaded. I'm super passionate about helping people and have spent many hours both online and in person giving advice to only have it ignored (maybe bc I've never charged for it). Once, a lady I'd seen in the gym a lot but never spoken to interrupted me mid deadlift session and asked for help with her diet. I spent about 30 minutes right then and there walking her through macros, estimating TDEE, blah blah to have her finish off with "maybe I'll just try Isagenix again..." Welp, thanks for ruining what was a great workout. I used to make meal and workout plans for free, often to the same end. Now when people ask me for help, I say "meet me at the gym at 4AM tomorrow" as a qualifier. Again, jaded view but it seems about 1 of 10 people that ask for advice actually act on it. I HAVE had those that do and dang are they rewarding! But yeah, I don't like giving unsolicited advice, and when it IS solicited, I like to get a feel of commitment before investing a ton of time.
I can understand feeling that way. And it's harder to scale a response (i.e., decide how much time to invest) when in a formum vs. in person, since we don't get the subtle feedback from things like facial expressions to know when we're wasting our time.
On the flip side of that, in a forum, there's the potential that we're giving information to people who are reading but not posting. That's a bit of a crapshoot, admittedly, but I'm quite confident it happens. (I've posted the arm rant that Jane's referring to so many flipping times that I'm bleeping sick of doing it. Often, I'm just using search to find a previous response, and bracketing the main point with some small thread-specific stuff. I believe Jane has mentioned before that she found it helpful, but I'm periodically surprised by positive references to it in threads from women who I didn't even realize had seen it.)
While I understand why you'd not take the time to formulate a detailed advice post (totally legit), it's still hard for me to understand why you'd post in critique of people who did respond in that case (and perhaps other cases not linked). One of the things that I've come to believe about volunteer organizations of all sorts (of which MFP is a small case), is that if I'm not putting in the work to make the volunteer functions run, I don't have much firm ground to stand on, when criticizing how others who do put in the work go about doing it.
I don't mean to be harsh here, just frank. As I said earlier in the thread, I think there's value in occasional discussions like this one, especially now that we have something specific to focus on.
I guess I dont see warning someone of how much work is required to do something as helpful, so I view it as negative. Which obviously varies person to person. If someone told me it would take me over 10 years to accomplish my goal, that probably would've been so daunting I wouldn't have tried. My approach is to get them to take one step, then another. So yes, I can see how people may not view the comments as negatively as I do but having climbed that mountain, if anyone says they also want to climb it, I'd never say "do you realize how high it is? How cold it gets? How many dont make it?" but rather "Awesome! Get your boots on!". I think those reality checks can be as discouraging as informative so personally I'd be hesitant to put them out there. I realize that's not everyones perspective which is why I started this discussion. I'm not right, but I'd argue neither are the people that disagree. I believe the answer is dependant on a lot of factors. Hopefully that makes sense lol.
I believe it is or could be helpful. You can make informed decisions based off the information you're offered. You can identify common pitfalls and avoid them. You can review successes and try to find what worked in them. You can form realistic expectations of how long it could take to accomplish your goal and decide whether you're up for it.
Imagine someone only slightly overweight wanting to lose 10kgs in two weeks. Or a new lifter " I want to bench press 325 in a week's time!"
"Awesome, get your boots on?" or "It would be risky to cut calories to such an extent to attempt such a huge loss in such a short space of time." / "It would be better to learn proper form first to avoid injury".
Where do you draw the line? Do you let someone jeopardize their health because you wouldn't want to discourage them?
An informed decision would be more likely to yield positive results than jumping head first while having a crowd cheering on the sideline for potentially damaging actions.
Sure, this isn't a black or white scenario. But on these forums few of us are fortunate enough to ever get to know someone else so well that we could predict what would motivate or demotivate them.
As such, most opt to share personal experiences or relevant information and merely hope the person on the receiving end can use it as tools to assist on their journey.
Of course. I'm referring to an overall goal that has already been accomplished by thousands of people, not an extreme outlier. Has it been accomplished by a ton of people and barring some physical condition, can be accomplished through consistency and effort? That's exactly where I draw the line.1 -
My sister is morbidly obese, has been that way for most of her life and will probably stay that way. I don't think she lacks "discipline" or whatever that was stated here. She went to school for a very long time, got a good solid job. Wakes up every morning and rarely miss a day of work.
I think it's a case of people being disciplined in other areas and not putting as much efforts in their fitness and health. I don't know if that makes sense?
Because I can say she's probably more disciplined and organized than me but in other areas of her life.
I did the same thing. I was disciplined and patient in many areas of my life. I accepted hard work today often meant that the actual reward might be months or even years away.
My problem is I created a blind spot where I was never objective. I had a strictly emotional response to my weight. I judged myself weak. I had no patience. I was surprisingly unscientific in what I believed.
When I finally was able to become objective all my better character traits kicked in. It then became relatively easy to lose weight. Not fast... but easy. I still had bad days and weak moments but somehow my objectivity remained and I just let them go.8 -
I'm going to quote myself and comment below, in a way that's related but not direct to the point of the thread. I've been thinking about these issues as I read replies on the thread, and there's an aspect I find odd.
I agree that we're seeing more obese people over the last 40 years or so, but the idea that it was historically normal to be what (I think) we'd refer to as "lean" in threads like this . . . I think that's inaccurate.
People had less bodyfat. The defined muscularity was not common, nor was single digit body fat coipled with muscularity. A more wiry than defined build was probably more common among average people, even people with quite intense physical jobs. What we'd call "skinny" now was very common, even among demographics with fairly physical work (farmers are the ones I'm most familiar with).
Most of the handsome young male film idols of the 1940s-1960s aren't what we'd consider normal in that same kind of group today - much less shredded, generally, even at movie swimsuit time. To the extent there are photos of circus strongmen from the 1800s, most are fairly muscular, but still I think on average a bit short of what we'd consider normal in bodybuilders today (even sub-elite but serious ones) Further, many of those 1800s strongmen don't have extremely low bodyfat. Often, there is enough bodyfat that abs don't show, though the rest of the physique suggests that they're there under that bit of fat layer. There have been bodybuilders per se (appearance focused physique) for a very long time, but they've always been a small minority.
The appearance standards for "good looking fit normal guy" are more defined and muscular now/recently, than has been true over my lifetime (b. 1955). Am I saying the standards are unrealistic? No, I'm saying that they've changed, noticably, toward low bodyfat and defined muscularity.
Usually, the "obesity epidemic" is said to have begun somewhere around the 1980s. (I was 25 in 1980, for context, so my "noticing bodies" hormones had been in the "on" position for over a decade at that point.)
Without doing a big bundle of reseach, I think the obesity incidence trend and the muscularity/toned aspiration "look" have risen in parallel, loosely speaking. Looking at some photos of "good looking" aspirational celebrity appearance examples over the years, the aspirational appearance (in popular culture) seems to have moved toward defined muscularity for men, and "toned" appearance for women (in a way that would've been seen as undesirably muscular in say, 1970).
I suspect the fitness level inthe general population may've been on a somewhat similar track to the obesity trend. That's more complicated, though, so a more tentative thought. For sure, the average person's daily life has gotten much less active (incidental life activity) over those decades, but intentional exercise seems much more popular.
OTOH, while gyms and the like are all over the place now compared to then, the people I see in mine (and judging from multi-aged friends' routines), many people's exercise routine is fairly mild (that's not a criticism), maybe kind of pro forma. It also seems like - around here - hobby type activities with a strong physical component are attracting fewer people, especially younger people. (I'm talking about things like commonness of dancing as a lifel-long hobby, how many people seem to do things like canoeing often or belong to clubs for that sort of thing, the size of adult sports leagues of various sorts around here, etc.). Cycling for transportation is more popular, though, I think. All of this fitness bit is observational on my side, though, so quite likely biased by where and who I am.
This is an imperfect kind of correlation, I'm sure; and there are certainly individual counter-examples along the way (celebrities seen as physically desirable who don't fit that muscular/toned mold). But I think there is a loose cooincidence between those trends, of aspirational appearance becoming more fit/muscular, even as the population has become on average more overweight and less active.
This probably has some implications for what people see as realistic, or not so much, but could cut either/both ways.2 -
My sister is morbidly obese, has been that way for most of her life and will probably stay that way. I don't think she lacks "discipline" or whatever that was stated here. She went to school for a very long time, got a good solid job. Wakes up every morning and rarely miss a day of work.
I think it's a case of people being disciplined in other areas and not putting as much efforts in their fitness and health. I don't know if that makes sense?
Because I can say she's probably more disciplined and organized than me but in other areas of her life.
Interesting observiation. I think that's absolutely common.
I found Novus's explanation of how it applied to him very interesting, too, because it's quite different from what I'd say of myself. Personally, I've found that I can *focus* on a limited number of dynamic areas. There was a time when it was mostly career and marriage. Now retired and widowed, those aren't in the picture. My focus on finances have switched on and off over the years, but in a mode that put decent habits in place for the unfocused times, so that's worked out OK (probably looks "disciplined and organized" from the outside, but really, really isn't).
Cancer (and the physical depletion that came with treatment) increased my focus on activity and fitness. A decade or so later, I finally acknowledged (echo of Novus here) that health issue such as my blood lips/blood pressure were not responding sufficiently to fitness alone, and I turned more focus to weight management.
I think for some people like me, there's a question of how many balls we can keep in the air at one time, regarding things that *actively* require attention, discipline, and organization (vs. can just run on autopilot-type habits). Denial is a factor, but possibly having a limited capacity for focus is another.
There are certainly very successful peole who can (seemingly) achieve discipline, organization, and actual improvement of their behavior/habits in many areas at once . . . but I don't think that type of person is super common.
9 -
My sister is morbidly obese, has been that way for most of her life and will probably stay that way. I don't think she lacks "discipline" or whatever that was stated here. She went to school for a very long time, got a good solid job. Wakes up every morning and rarely miss a day of work.
I think it's a case of people being disciplined in other areas and not putting as much efforts in their fitness and health. I don't know if that makes sense?
Because I can say she's probably more disciplined and organized than me but in other areas of her life.
Interesting observiation. I think that's absolutely common.
I found Novus's explanation of how it applied to him very interesting, too, because it's quite different from what I'd say of myself. Personally, I've found that I can *focus* on a limited number of dynamic areas. There was a time when it was mostly career and marriage. Now retired and widowed, those aren't in the picture. My focus on finances have switched on and off over the years, but in a mode that put decent habits in place for the unfocused times, so that's worked out OK (probably looks "disciplined and organized" from the outside, but really, really isn't).
Cancer (and the physical depletion that came with treatment) increased my focus on activity and fitness. A decade or so later, I finally acknowledged (echo of Novus here) that health issue such as my blood lips/blood pressure were not responding sufficiently to fitness alone, and I turned more focus to weight management.
I think for some people like me, there's a question of how many balls we can keep in the air at one time, regarding things that *actively* require attention, discipline, and organization (vs. can just run on autopilot-type habits). Denial is a factor, but possibly having a limited capacity for focus is another.
There are certainly very successful peole who can (seemingly) achieve discipline, organization, and actual improvement of their behavior/habits in many areas at once . . . but I don't think that type of person is super common.
I am not one of the super people. Trust me. I just reprioritized things. One of the things that is not immediately easy for a self employed person is to fire B and C clients. These are one that take as much, sometimes more, time than A clients but are less profitable and/or they do not pay timely.
Of course this year business has sucked and I am not 100 percent sure what happens next. I might be happy with some B and C clients right now. lol3 -
My sister is morbidly obese, has been that way for most of her life and will probably stay that way. I don't think she lacks "discipline" or whatever that was stated here. She went to school for a very long time, got a good solid job. Wakes up every morning and rarely miss a day of work.
I think it's a case of people being disciplined in other areas and not putting as much efforts in their fitness and health. I don't know if that makes sense?
Because I can say she's probably more disciplined and organized than me but in other areas of her life.
In my experience, people who self-sabotage often are highly functional in many areas of their life, but there are one or two things they have some sort of mental block or issue to addressing with the same habits of consistency or self-discipline they're able to harness to help accomplish goals in different areas of their lives.
I'm absolutely in this category -- I've had times in my life where multiple areas of my life looked great and one or two were just disaster areas. If you just looked at those areas, you'd conclude that I couldn't plan or had no discipline.
It's gotten better now that I'm older and have done some self-work, but it's still takes more focus and planning for me to make time for household chores than it is for me to, say, knock out projects for work.
5 -
Oh man. I feel like this year has been nothing but Cs and Ds! I’m even grateful for the D clients (the ones who might pay someday or frankly they just might not) at the moment!My sister is morbidly obese, has been that way for most of her life and will probably stay that way. I don't think she lacks "discipline" or whatever that was stated here. She went to school for a very long time, got a good solid job. Wakes up every morning and rarely miss a day of work.
I think it's a case of people being disciplined in other areas and not putting as much efforts in their fitness and health. I don't know if that makes sense?
Because I can say she's probably more disciplined and organized than me but in other areas of her life.
Interesting observiation. I think that's absolutely common.
I found Novus's explanation of how it applied to him very interesting, too, because it's quite different from what I'd say of myself. Personally, I've found that I can *focus* on a limited number of dynamic areas. There was a time when it was mostly career and marriage. Now retired and widowed, those aren't in the picture. My focus on finances have switched on and off over the years, but in a mode that put decent habits in place for the unfocused times, so that's worked out OK (probably looks "disciplined and organized" from the outside, but really, really isn't).
Cancer (and the physical depletion that came with treatment) increased my focus on activity and fitness. A decade or so later, I finally acknowledged (echo of Novus here) that health issue such as my blood lips/blood pressure were not responding sufficiently to fitness alone, and I turned more focus to weight management.
I think for some people like me, there's a question of how many balls we can keep in the air at one time, regarding things that *actively* require attention, discipline, and organization (vs. can just run on autopilot-type habits). Denial is a factor, but possibly having a limited capacity for focus is another.
There are certainly very successful peole who can (seemingly) achieve discipline, organization, and actual improvement of their behavior/habits in many areas at once . . . but I don't think that type of person is super common.
I am not one of the super people. Trust me. I just reprioritized things. One of the things that is not immediately easy for a self employed person is to fire B and C clients. These are one that take as much, sometimes more, time than A clients but are less profitable and/or they do not pay timely.
Of course this year business has sucked and I am not 100 percent sure what happens next. I might be happy with some B and C clients right now. lol
I feel like @Mellouk89 has a point. There have been times in my life when exercise and appearance were just not priorities. It takes a lot of time and effort to procure decent meals and work out, compared to days past when crunch time has meant trying to get in a pizza order before Dominos closes at 1 am then working 24 hrs without a break for a shower. Not a lot of time for long runs, shopping, or food prep.
4 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »nitalieben wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I see that you did reply now, which is good. (I'm somewhat flummoxed that, since you obviously know *how* to reach that goal, and with what you consider not to be optimum genetic potential, that you didn't then or now have "here's how I did it and how long it took" comments. I think that strongly relevant fairly detailed personal accounts are often quite helpful.)
But I'm really quoting to say this: I'd encourage you, when you have profoundly relevant experience, to post, even if someone's looking for some combo of advice, encouragement, and friends. I frequently do that on posts by older women who are concerned about the effects of aging on weight loss/fitness ambitions, whom I think I can advise or encourage, but I just say "I accept friend requests, but am a cr*p friend who rarely posts in that part of MFP" or something like that.
Share your experience to help (advise) or encourage people. That would be *great*.
Balanced advice happens on threads when people with experience/knowledge post and *create* balance.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »It's hard to blame someone for having unrealistic body goals. The whole diet and fitness culture is filled with liars. Let's take 200 pics and post the best we have, not the other 199 that looked like crap. Let's brag about our sub 10% body fat (if it really is, most lie about their body fat as if it matters) and leave out that we are most likely on gear. Let's bask in the glory of our flat stomach but leave out that we had a tummy tuck but just tell people how we work out like crazy.
Here is an example. You look at a magazine of a celebrity who got in killer shape for a movie. Much like a body builder or fitness competitor leading up to a competition so they can peak at the right moment. For them it's the stage, for the actor it's for filming. The magazine tells us what the actor did, of course leaving out the stuff they don't want to admit (steroids etc...). Now your average person reads this, wants to look like this and proceeds to make a lifestyle out of what a celebrity did for say 12 weeks leading up to filming. It's a false narrative from the very beginning...
I know what you mean, but even if the IG picture is filtered and whatever, they STILL accomplished a physique that was able to be improved slightly via filters/lighting/flexing that resulted in the picture that was posted. Its really no different than women with makeup; they're accentuating what already exists. So, I feel like if you arm yourself with the realization that you're not going to wake up and see that IG picture in the mirror, but with a lot of work you CAN wake up with a physique that can look like it with that filter, it's the same thing. People will post flexed/unflexed pictures and if they were posted separately I feel a lot of people would call the unflexed realistic and the flexed unrealistic when they're in fact the same exact physique. Heck, my PP is about 3 weeks pre comp with a pump and good lighting so it's admittedly optimized, but it's real and therefore realistic. I'm struggling with articulating this, I hope it makes sense!
I dunno, I'm a fan of dreaming big and when I see others doing that, it kills me to see anyone raining on that. Granted, that's my perspective and others may see what I view as "rain" to be guidance or a reality check.
I get that you may be less attuned to this as a male, but I think you may not have a clear view of just how manipulated some of the images of female "influencers" are, by photoshop and the like. And, yes, people believe them.
In the transparent cases, "booty gainz" and narrow waists are curiously accompanied by backgrounds where doorframes also bend in and out, hourglass style. But there are others who are clearly equally manipulated images, but either better at Photoshop or smart enough to pose with a solid-color plain background to hide the machinations.
From the standpoint of either Photoshop or genetics, it's not unusual to see misunderstandings about the slight abdominal swell (not "pooch" or belly fat) that most women have because of having a uterus and related female plumbing. It's not throwing cold water in a mean way to point out that most women do have that shape (not flattyFlatFLAT) even when very lean.
(There's a whole thread here about that. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10689837/does-this-uterus-make-my-stomach-look-fat/p1. The thread goes beyond that to show a range of women who've gone various ways along the route to minimal abdominal fat, under various conditions, but the whole point if you read the OP was the frequency of posts that have *actually unrealistic* expectations, at least for the overwhelming majority of us women's genetics. Keep in mind that we've seen photos from some of these women who think they have "belly fat" when it's pretty clear that they just have a normal, healthy shape, often with minimal/no belly fat at all. They've just been trained by the worst influencers to think normal shapes are Not Good.)IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I think your contribution to that thread was great. Mostly I saw in the thread a mix of some discouragement at the beginning, but mostly people calling him on the idea that he needs others to give him the motivation and hard truths that what he needs is discipline and a plan and that it may take a while, plus a couple of people who had achieved the goal and found it not worth the effort (or not good for them). I find the discipline-related posts, as well as those from people with experience, even if not positive, to be helpful contributions to the thread.
If I had the experience to contribute to a thread like that (which I do not), I'd probably have said that it's a great goal, but he doesn't yet know how his body will look at feel at different BF%s, so rather than making sub 9% the one successful result, why not get started and have a plan, but also have some intermediate goals and take stock of how he looks and feels at different %ages. I don't think that would be discouraging. I also would suggest (if there were experienced people on the thread) that if he wants to talk through his plan here, it might be a great way to get feedback on a plan and timetable.
Just a mild observation: I see that to be true on that thread, because I know some of the posters' history from other threads. For someone new here, since that history wasn't recounted, but just the negative end points, it may've come across as purely theoretical negativity, especially given the now-current profile pics or lack thereof.
@IronIsMyTherapy, I think it's fine, on someone else's thread, to ask "from what basis do you say that, as my experience has been different". It may help you get to know regular posters (to the good or bad 😆), and it will help the OP know who is giving experience-based advice (or truly science-based though theoretical advice), vs. just typing less knowledgeable opinions.janejellyroll wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.
And for the record, I do think it's helpful to point out in specific situations where someone isn't being realistic.
I think of @AnnPT77 and her amazing "arms" post. I spent so much time hating my arms. The problem was never my arms. It was my goals!
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
My approach to giving advice is kind of jaded. I'm super passionate about helping people and have spent many hours both online and in person giving advice to only have it ignored (maybe bc I've never charged for it). Once, a lady I'd seen in the gym a lot but never spoken to interrupted me mid deadlift session and asked for help with her diet. I spent about 30 minutes right then and there walking her through macros, estimating TDEE, blah blah to have her finish off with "maybe I'll just try Isagenix again..." Welp, thanks for ruining what was a great workout. I used to make meal and workout plans for free, often to the same end. Now when people ask me for help, I say "meet me at the gym at 4AM tomorrow" as a qualifier. Again, jaded view but it seems about 1 of 10 people that ask for advice actually act on it. I HAVE had those that do and dang are they rewarding! But yeah, I don't like giving unsolicited advice, and when it IS solicited, I like to get a feel of commitment before investing a ton of time.
I can understand feeling that way. And it's harder to scale a response (i.e., decide how much time to invest) when in a formum vs. in person, since we don't get the subtle feedback from things like facial expressions to know when we're wasting our time.
On the flip side of that, in a forum, there's the potential that we're giving information to people who are reading but not posting. That's a bit of a crapshoot, admittedly, but I'm quite confident it happens. (I've posted the arm rant that Jane's referring to so many flipping times that I'm bleeping sick of doing it. Often, I'm just using search to find a previous response, and bracketing the main point with some small thread-specific stuff. I believe Jane has mentioned before that she found it helpful, but I'm periodically surprised by positive references to it in threads from women who I didn't even realize had seen it.)
While I understand why you'd not take the time to formulate a detailed advice post (totally legit), it's still hard for me to understand why you'd post in critique of people who did respond in that case (and perhaps other cases not linked). One of the things that I've come to believe about volunteer organizations of all sorts (of which MFP is a small case), is that if I'm not putting in the work to make the volunteer functions run, I don't have much firm ground to stand on, when criticizing how others who do put in the work go about doing it.
I don't mean to be harsh here, just frank. As I said earlier in the thread, I think there's value in occasional discussions like this one, especially now that we have something specific to focus on.
I guess I dont see warning someone of how much work is required to do something as helpful, so I view it as negative. Which obviously varies person to person. If someone told me it would take me over 10 years to accomplish my goal, that probably would've been so daunting I wouldn't have tried. My approach is to get them to take one step, then another. So yes, I can see how people may not view the comments as negatively as I do but having climbed that mountain, if anyone says they also want to climb it, I'd never say "do you realize how high it is? How cold it gets? How many dont make it?" but rather "Awesome! Get your boots on!". I think those reality checks can be as discouraging as informative so personally I'd be hesitant to put them out there. I realize that's not everyones perspective which is why I started this discussion. I'm not right, but I'd argue neither are the people that disagree. I believe the answer is dependant on a lot of factors. Hopefully that makes sense lol.
I believe it is or could be helpful. You can make informed decisions based off the information you're offered. You can identify common pitfalls and avoid them. You can review successes and try to find what worked in them. You can form realistic expectations of how long it could take to accomplish your goal and decide whether you're up for it.
Imagine someone only slightly overweight wanting to lose 10kgs in two weeks. Or a new lifter " I want to bench press 325 in a week's time!"
"Awesome, get your boots on?" or "It would be risky to cut calories to such an extent to attempt such a huge loss in such a short space of time." / "It would be better to learn proper form first to avoid injury".
Where do you draw the line? Do you let someone jeopardize their health because you wouldn't want to discourage them?
An informed decision would be more likely to yield positive results than jumping head first while having a crowd cheering on the sideline for potentially damaging actions.
Sure, this isn't a black or white scenario. But on these forums few of us are fortunate enough to ever get to know someone else so well that we could predict what would motivate or demotivate them.
As such, most opt to share personal experiences or relevant information and merely hope the person on the receiving end can use it as tools to assist on their journey.
Of course. I'm referring to an overall goal that has already been accomplished by thousands of people, not an extreme outlier. Has it been accomplished by a ton of people and barring some physical condition, can be accomplished through consistency and effort? That's exactly where I draw the line.
I think it’s important to note that roughly 5% of the people who lose weight actually keep it off. I’m not sure it’s realistic to assume that these goals have been achieved with lasting success by vast numbers of people.
That doesn’t make them unachievable, but also doesn’t make them so common that it’s unreasonable to consider them a significant challenge or possibly even unlikely.
I read the thread you linked earlier and found no negative vibes. I saw people referencing the amount of work required (fair and valid), that “good” genes could make the process a bit easier (also fair and valid) and some of the pitfalls. I read all of this as setting very realistic expectations.
I wish that were more the norm. “You got this!” And “go for it” and “the sky’s the limit” and “just keep working - you’ll get there” is advice that I found very unhelpful. For myself (approx 9 years in to my work), having no reasonable expectation of timeframe or what would be required led me to feel like I was failing when I was actually doing exactly exactly the best things. Because I had no idea of reasonable expectations, I felt like my goals were not achievable and that I was destined to not achieve them.
So I found the linked thread refreshing. The biggest battle in this entire process of self-improvement is setting appropriate goals/expectations. I don’t mean end goals-I mean what can I expect to achieve this month? What kind of progress can I make in a year? It I want to do ____, is it reasonable to believe that I can do that within 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? What do I need to do to make that happen? What is the time commitment? What changes will I need to make to my family life or work/life/fun balance to make that happen? How will an inability to make some or those changes extend the time to reach my goal? Or will it prevent me from reaching my goal until such time as I’m able to make whatever change?
Reasonable expectations doesn’t mean an unreasonable end goal. It means setting the best stage for success on the way there.
But that’s my lens.
Yours is obviously different.11 -
The only unrealistic fitness goals are the Hollywood transformations which require steroids and other drugs to achieve that kind of body in that time frame or at that age.
Stuff like a flat stomach or low body fat % is just a matter of dieting; you don't even need to workout.
Huge problem is how lacking proper nutrition education is. Not enough people seem to understand that losing weight is Calories in Vs. Calories Out. Or that you will eventually lose fat everywhere, but you can't decide where to lose fat first. Instead, it's a constant stream of how some people are just fat through no fault of their own and there's nothing they can do about it.
My go-to line when someone says that some people can't lose weight is "no one in the holocaust was fat."5 -
And for a lot of people, fat is not just about a lack of discipline or an unwillingness to face something. I am glad I have a good familiarity with therapy and therapeutic techniques when I started this, because as I dropped pounds, some mental health stuff definitely came up. That has been the hard part. Not drinking enough or sticking with my calorie budget. I stuffed a lot of things down and piled food on top of them over the years. I can't blame people for not feeling that they're not in a place where they can unpack all that. I wasn't until I left my husband. I couldn't have done it while married to him. I couldn't have done it living with my mother. I can do it now, and I am. I give myself a pass for my first 32 years of being overweight. But it's enough hard work that I'm only wanting to do this once. So I don't intend to regain this weight once I get it off. (grin)8
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I had this thought while swimming today. Weight is not like height. I remember being in high school on the varsity basketball team and I couldn't dunk I was so close I could dunk a volley ball but not a basketball and at 6' foot I thought man if I was 6' 1" or 6'3" max the world would be my oyster, well unlike height which we can not control, weight we can. We absolutely can. If we were to drop 100 obese individuals on a deserted island with limited resources to where they would be forced (yes forced) to only eat enough to survive, it is a matter of fact that when we picked them up a month later or a year later every single one of them would have lost weight. So no miracles needed, it is all about input vs output. However in the United States especially everything is a disease or a condition, and seldom do we hold people accountable for their actions, I recently read somewhere about someone's mom who's gotten injured once again as a nurse trying to lift an overweight patient again! I know from personal observations that people who don't lie to themselves succeed, one girl in particular was over 200 pounds and called herself fat, not over weight, not husky, not body positive, but fat, she has now lost over 60 pounds over the last two years, and is still looking to improve.5
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IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I see that you did reply now, which is good. (I'm somewhat flummoxed that, since you obviously know *how* to reach that goal, and with what you consider not to be optimum genetic potential, that you didn't then or now have "here's how I did it and how long it took" comments. I think that strongly relevant fairly detailed personal accounts are often quite helpful.)
But I'm really quoting to say this: I'd encourage you, when you have profoundly relevant experience, to post, even if someone's looking for some combo of advice, encouragement, and friends. I frequently do that on posts by older women who are concerned about the effects of aging on weight loss/fitness ambitions, whom I think I can advise or encourage, but I just say "I accept friend requests, but am a cr*p friend who rarely posts in that part of MFP" or something like that.
Share your experience to help (advise) or encourage people. That would be *great*.
Balanced advice happens on threads when people with experience/knowledge post and *create* balance.IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »It's hard to blame someone for having unrealistic body goals. The whole diet and fitness culture is filled with liars. Let's take 200 pics and post the best we have, not the other 199 that looked like crap. Let's brag about our sub 10% body fat (if it really is, most lie about their body fat as if it matters) and leave out that we are most likely on gear. Let's bask in the glory of our flat stomach but leave out that we had a tummy tuck but just tell people how we work out like crazy.
Here is an example. You look at a magazine of a celebrity who got in killer shape for a movie. Much like a body builder or fitness competitor leading up to a competition so they can peak at the right moment. For them it's the stage, for the actor it's for filming. The magazine tells us what the actor did, of course leaving out the stuff they don't want to admit (steroids etc...). Now your average person reads this, wants to look like this and proceeds to make a lifestyle out of what a celebrity did for say 12 weeks leading up to filming. It's a false narrative from the very beginning...
I know what you mean, but even if the IG picture is filtered and whatever, they STILL accomplished a physique that was able to be improved slightly via filters/lighting/flexing that resulted in the picture that was posted. Its really no different than women with makeup; they're accentuating what already exists. So, I feel like if you arm yourself with the realization that you're not going to wake up and see that IG picture in the mirror, but with a lot of work you CAN wake up with a physique that can look like it with that filter, it's the same thing. People will post flexed/unflexed pictures and if they were posted separately I feel a lot of people would call the unflexed realistic and the flexed unrealistic when they're in fact the same exact physique. Heck, my PP is about 3 weeks pre comp with a pump and good lighting so it's admittedly optimized, but it's real and therefore realistic. I'm struggling with articulating this, I hope it makes sense!
I dunno, I'm a fan of dreaming big and when I see others doing that, it kills me to see anyone raining on that. Granted, that's my perspective and others may see what I view as "rain" to be guidance or a reality check.
I get that you may be less attuned to this as a male, but I think you may not have a clear view of just how manipulated some of the images of female "influencers" are, by photoshop and the like. And, yes, people believe them.
In the transparent cases, "booty gainz" and narrow waists are curiously accompanied by backgrounds where doorframes also bend in and out, hourglass style. But there are others who are clearly equally manipulated images, but either better at Photoshop or smart enough to pose with a solid-color plain background to hide the machinations.
From the standpoint of either Photoshop or genetics, it's not unusual to see misunderstandings about the slight abdominal swell (not "pooch" or belly fat) that most women have because of having a uterus and related female plumbing. It's not throwing cold water in a mean way to point out that most women do have that shape (not flattyFlatFLAT) even when very lean.
(There's a whole thread here about that. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10689837/does-this-uterus-make-my-stomach-look-fat/p1. The thread goes beyond that to show a range of women who've gone various ways along the route to minimal abdominal fat, under various conditions, but the whole point if you read the OP was the frequency of posts that have *actually unrealistic* expectations, at least for the overwhelming majority of us women's genetics. Keep in mind that we've seen photos from some of these women who think they have "belly fat" when it's pretty clear that they just have a normal, healthy shape, often with minimal/no belly fat at all. They've just been trained by the worst influencers to think normal shapes are Not Good.)IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.
This is not the old west. This board is meant to be for adult aged posters only. If someone gives bad advice then it should be handled with disagrees or direct comments. I have yet to use the disagree function and prefer to comment directly when I feel strongly about it.
This is more passive aggressive going behind someone's back. Doesn't that seem more wrong to you?
Common Internet Saying:
LINK OR IT NEVER HAPPENED
So someone on the internet might have been able to shake you from a goal you spent 10 years in the process of accomplishing? I am not buying that either.
BTW, there would have been nothing wrong if you just wanted to brag about your accomplishment. You didn't need to create a debate. Just post a success story. Many have done so to inspire others.
This is not me bragging and my point is not to take issue with these people, it's to have a conversation about that kind of behavior. You're pretty determined to misunderstand though so have a nice day.
So let's sum this up.
I am at a store and I hear someone say something inappropriate.
I go to the next store and start instructing people there about how it is wrong to have said whatever was said at the first store. They have NO idea who or what I am talking about. They do not know if they need to adjust their behavior because they do not know if any of them were at the first store or involved in the conversation or have ever had a similar conversation.
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything. If you want to have a real conversation then context is needed otherwise this is pointless.
Was this just a boredom thread or do you actually feel strongly about this subject? If so, step up.
If I was part of the original potentially bad advice I would welcome correction. That is how growth happens. That is how wisdom works.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10812557/looking-for-motivation#latest
Could I ask why you did not step up and encourage this young man?
I should've but his request was for friend adds and I don't really have a desire to accumulate friend connections on here. The direction some of the responses went bugged me so I started this because I wanted to see what others thought. You're not addressing the context now that I've provided it though...
Edit: I replied. Thanks for calling me out on that.
I think your contribution to that thread was great. Mostly I saw in the thread a mix of some discouragement at the beginning, but mostly people calling him on the idea that he needs others to give him the motivation and hard truths that what he needs is discipline and a plan and that it may take a while, plus a couple of people who had achieved the goal and found it not worth the effort (or not good for them). I find the discipline-related posts, as well as those from people with experience, even if not positive, to be helpful contributions to the thread.
If I had the experience to contribute to a thread like that (which I do not), I'd probably have said that it's a great goal, but he doesn't yet know how his body will look at feel at different BF%s, so rather than making sub 9% the one successful result, why not get started and have a plan, but also have some intermediate goals and take stock of how he looks and feels at different %ages. I don't think that would be discouraging. I also would suggest (if there were experienced people on the thread) that if he wants to talk through his plan here, it might be a great way to get feedback on a plan and timetable.
Just a mild observation: I see that to be true on that thread, because I know some of the posters' history from other threads. For someone new here, since that history wasn't recounted, but just the negative end points, it may've come across as purely theoretical negativity, especially given the now-current profile pics or lack thereof.
@IronIsMyTherapy, I think it's fine, on someone else's thread, to ask "from what basis do you say that, as my experience has been different". It may help you get to know regular posters (to the good or bad 😆), and it will help the OP know who is giving experience-based advice (or truly science-based though theoretical advice), vs. just typing less knowledgeable opinions.janejellyroll wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.
And for the record, I do think it's helpful to point out in specific situations where someone isn't being realistic.
I think of @AnnPT77 and her amazing "arms" post. I spent so much time hating my arms. The problem was never my arms. It was my goals!
Thank you, Jane, that truly means a lot. I think that particular realism is more like "you're closer to your goals than you think, but you're misperceiving your current state". Most any state of upper arms can be improved (absent true physical limitations, of course), but good if both current state and future expectations arerealistically assessed.
Also, I just hate seeing women hate their bodies, for any reason . . . but especially for *inaccurate* reasons!
My approach to giving advice is kind of jaded. I'm super passionate about helping people and have spent many hours both online and in person giving advice to only have it ignored (maybe bc I've never charged for it). Once, a lady I'd seen in the gym a lot but never spoken to interrupted me mid deadlift session and asked for help with her diet. I spent about 30 minutes right then and there walking her through macros, estimating TDEE, blah blah to have her finish off with "maybe I'll just try Isagenix again..." Welp, thanks for ruining what was a great workout. I used to make meal and workout plans for free, often to the same end. Now when people ask me for help, I say "meet me at the gym at 4AM tomorrow" as a qualifier. Again, jaded view but it seems about 1 of 10 people that ask for advice actually act on it. I HAVE had those that do and dang are they rewarding! But yeah, I don't like giving unsolicited advice, and when it IS solicited, I like to get a feel of commitment before investing a ton of time.snowflake954 wrote: »This post of yours kept bothering me and I finally figured out why. You say that you've helped people in the past and have gotten burned, disappointed, because they gave up and you invested time and effort in them. This is a legitimate complaint. But, I don't understand your calling out posters that do do vetting before helping. You should have done it and could have avoided some of the situations that you described. Your defense now is to not give a realistic comment--just "Rah-rah!! Go for it!" Sorry, but being realistic is not the same as discouraging. Because you have managed to arrive where many would like to go, what you say can carry more weight. I think you should use that influence wisely.
I definitely pre-vet in other types of threads, the "HELP! IM EATING 1200 CALORIES AND I CAN'T LOSE WEIGHT" threads. I want the poster to make their diary public - I'm not willing to play 20 questions dragging information out of them that I can see at a glance in their food and exercise diaries. If they're not willing to do that for me, I'm not willing to invest time in them.
I like the "meet me at the gym at 4 AM" pre-vetting. This will certainly sort out those who are serious about wanting help!8
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