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"Unrealistic" body goals
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kshama2001 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »For some people, a flat belly is unrealistic because the belly is the last place they lose fat and to get the flatness they want they would have to drop to underweight body levels. Some women are already lean but have a small amount of natural belly pooch due to the uterus, and no amount or dieting will get rid of it, unless they want to become underweight. Most people can probably get a relatively flat stomach if they achieve a healthy weight.
And if you're carrying around the equivalent of a five-month fetus in fibroids, it's unrealistic to think you're going to have a flat belly, either.
But it's good to have a man explain to us that it's wrong to say that it's unrealistic. /s
Ha! I'm not the woman who wanted a flat belly, but I am carrying around the equivalent of a five-month fetus in fibroids, which I assume menopause will shrink greatly, but not completely, and just this week got rid of a bunch of short shirts. Even if I ever do manage to get back to the weight I was at that size again, I'll never again have the abdomen I had 20 years ago, and it would indeed be unrealistic to tell me otherwise.
Yep.
For a whole lot of women - 'how do I get a flat stomach' is the equivalent of 'how do I get bigger boobs'.
You get surgery.6 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »siberiantarragon wrote: »My weight issues have/had nothing to do with food addiction, that's why. And I'm sure that's the case for many obese people.
Well, if it wasn't caused by food addiction, then what was it caused by?
I'd also like to point out that a hallmark of addiction is denial. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case for you, I'm just saying it's a fact in general.Reminds me of a former coworker who was surprised to learn that I like vegetables, another one of those prejudiced notions about overweight/obese people.
I know plenty of overweight/obese people who like vegetables.
Not everyone who becomes obese has a "food addiction". I was just over the line of overweight into obese when I started back in 2012. I didn't have food issues or food addiction. I put on about 40-50 Lbs over the course of about 8 years. I graduated university when I was 30 and went from being a very active student that didn't own a car and walked or road my bike everywhere and worked landscape construction in the summers and in a liquor warehouse during the school year moving boxes of booze to being an accountant and sitting on my butt all day.
My appetite has always been pretty consistent with my activity level, so I was definitely eating less working my desk job....but still slightly more than I needed to maintain weight...like basically 5-6 Lbs per year.
Just playing devil's advocate, but if not a food addiction (and I don't believe in term in the literal, clinical sense) why did you keep eating when you noticed you pants didn't fit any more? The pleasure you got short term was perceived greater than any threat to your health or other factor?
Plenty of people choose to spend more money than they have, putting them at risk for financially bad consequences in the future. That doesn't mean they are addicted to spending. It just means that maybe they made some poor choices.7 -
The key here is: What is "realistic"? The truth is, asking advice from random people on the Internet is going to yield a whole spectrum of answers, from excellent to "oh dear Lord no".3
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »richardgavel wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »siberiantarragon wrote: »My weight issues have/had nothing to do with food addiction, that's why. And I'm sure that's the case for many obese people.
Well, if it wasn't caused by food addiction, then what was it caused by?
I'd also like to point out that a hallmark of addiction is denial. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case for you, I'm just saying it's a fact in general.Reminds me of a former coworker who was surprised to learn that I like vegetables, another one of those prejudiced notions about overweight/obese people.
I know plenty of overweight/obese people who like vegetables.
Not everyone who becomes obese has a "food addiction". I was just over the line of overweight into obese when I started back in 2012. I didn't have food issues or food addiction. I put on about 40-50 Lbs over the course of about 8 years. I graduated university when I was 30 and went from being a very active student that didn't own a car and walked or road my bike everywhere and worked landscape construction in the summers and in a liquor warehouse during the school year moving boxes of booze to being an accountant and sitting on my butt all day.
My appetite has always been pretty consistent with my activity level, so I was definitely eating less working my desk job....but still slightly more than I needed to maintain weight...like basically 5-6 Lbs per year.
Just playing devil's advocate, but if not a food addiction (and I don't believe in term in the literal, clinical sense) why did you keep eating when you noticed you pants didn't fit any more? The pleasure you got short term was perceived greater than any threat to your health or other factor?
Plenty of people choose to spend more money than they have, putting them at risk for financially bad consequences in the future. That doesn't mean they are addicted to spending. It just means that maybe they made some poor choices.
So same as the situation I described above with food. The immediate pleasure outweighs to them the threat of future financial problems.
That's true, but people could be making the decision (which might very well be on a subconscious level - it can take time and effort to become aware of one's decision making process for these things) for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with compulsion. Ignorance, peer pressure, and boring old "this is just the way I've always done it" probably have a lot more to do with it, and those things aren't addiction.
Lots of people engage in behaviors that aren't to their benefit without being addicts. Putting pleasure first isn't, by itself, addiction. Some people would simply call it human nature.9 -
Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.6
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alisdairsmommy wrote: »
That's true, but people could be making the decision (which might very well be on a subconscious level - it can take time and effort to become aware of one's decision making process for these things) for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with compulsion. Ignorance, peer pressure, and boring old "this is just the way I've always done it" probably have a lot more to do with it, and those things aren't addiction.
Lots of people engage in behaviors that aren't to their benefit without being addicts. Putting pleasure first isn't, by itself, addiction. Some people would simply call it human nature.
This.
How did I end up obese? A couple of things that are relevant here:
1-) Ignorance. I didn't DECIDE, consciously, to add a thousand calories of CONDIMENTS to my food a day. I knew what a calorie was (roughly) and that there were nutrition labels on the backs of food packages, but I did not understand how many calories I should be eating or what, even, was 'reasonable' to my eye re: Calorie count of various foods. There was no SCALE to measure it against. No element of "I could use a whole CUP Of unsweetened almond milk for less calories than that tablespoon of heavy cream!'. There was no "You know those couple of tablespoons of Peanut butter have as many calories as TWO of the apples you're smearing it on."
2-) Some weird emotional stuff due to food insecurity leading me to the impression that junk food was a limited opportunity thing and if I didn't get it and eat it NOW, I would never have again. Also elements of being able to hit the drive through being a signal of financial security.
At no point did I say "I like butter a lot. I know it's unhealthy but it tastes good so I'm going to put half of a stick in my green beans". I mean yeah, I like butter, but in order to make an informed decision one must be informed.
I do not believe a lot of people ARE.6 -
Whatsthemotive wrote: »Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.
Right! Never let perfection get in the way of really good...3 -
Would I like to have the body of a 20 year old who hasn’t had two children and a caesarean? You bet. But I’m 62. I can exercise up to an hour on many but not all days. I have a physical disability due to a car accident in my 20s. I have had two children and a caesarean. I have a full time job. I am responsible for doing the housework in my home. I have interests other than achieving the perfect body. I think it is healthy for me to have these other interests. I think it would be unhealthy mentally for me to make achieving the perfect body the focus of my life. (Not my place to judge what is healthy for other people). So I will work to lose weight and improve my fitness without setting “unrealistic” goals that will lead to disappointment and failure. I’ve lost 19.4 pounds since the start of the year. I’m working out 6 days a week. I’m increasing weight used as I am able and adding on time to the work out. I could barely do 15 minutes with soup cans when I started. Now I’m doing 40 minutes with 5 pound weights.
There’s a lot more to think about than whether I COULD reach some ideal body goal. There’s the issue of whether it would be good for to devote so much of my time and energy toward reaching that goal and what it would do for me even if I did reach that goal.4 -
Whatsthemotive wrote: »Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.
Yep, I unfortunately know this very well. Perfectionism can even be a reason why people don't start things--if they feel they're not going to be "perfect" at it right away, why bother?
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Also women have organs.2
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Whatsthemotive wrote: »Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.
Right! Never let perfection get in the way of really good...
I cringe at the word perfection. It lacks flexibility, creativity, and it’s also aged out. If we considered new technology in the 80’s/90’s to be perfect we would never innovate. We need to be progressive on our ever evolving approach to the new world unfolding before us. If you think you’re perfect or know what perfect looks like, you’re already light years behind the curve. There is no perfect. There is just evolution.
That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre. There is no wrong or right, just personal preference.3 -
The only times I’ve seen someone’s goals addressed as unrealistic were when they sounded something like this:
“How do I get a really big butt and skinny waist like this pro fitness model? I tried losing weight and now my arms and legs are super skinny and my butt is flat. The only exercise I’m willing to do is walking twice a week for thirty minutes, what should I eat to meet this goal?”
Or, alternately, “I have to lose 48 pounds by two months from now to be in my sister’s wedding. Wish me luck!”
These sorts of posters need a sharp dose of reality, and if they don’t get it here, they will still eventually get it further down the line.11 -
Whatsthemotive wrote: »Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.
Right! Never let perfection get in the way of really good...
I cringe at the word perfection. It lacks flexibility, creativity, and it’s also aged out. If we considered new technology in the 80’s/90’s to be perfect we would never innovate. We need to be progressive on our ever evolving approach to the new world unfolding before us. If you think you’re perfect or know what perfect looks like, you’re already light years behind the curve. There is no perfect. There is just evolution.
That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre. There is no wrong or right, just personal preference.
As someone with perfectionistic tendencies that I've only recently come to realize has held me back/contributed to my anxiety, I don't see "good enough" as mediocre or fine. "Good enough" is a relative term, and everyone defines what there own "good enough" is. I have had to teach myself that "good enough" is okay some days, and I'm not going to the "best me" every day. That absolutely doesn't mean I'm not going to strive to better myself in areas that I feel need improving, but I also have to know when to let up on myself.4 -
Speakeasy76 wrote: »Whatsthemotive wrote: »Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.
Right! Never let perfection get in the way of really good...
I cringe at the word perfection. It lacks flexibility, creativity, and it’s also aged out. If we considered new technology in the 80’s/90’s to be perfect we would never innovate. We need to be progressive on our ever evolving approach to the new world unfolding before us. If you think you’re perfect or know what perfect looks like, you’re already light years behind the curve. There is no perfect. There is just evolution.
That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre. There is no wrong or right, just personal preference.
As someone with perfectionistic tendencies that I've only recently come to realize has held me back/contributed to my anxiety, I don't see "good enough" as mediocre or fine. "Good enough" is a relative term, and everyone defines what there own "good enough" is. I have had to teach myself that "good enough" is okay some days, and I'm not going to the "best me" every day. That absolutely doesn't mean I'm not going to strive to better myself in areas that I feel need improving, but I also have to know when to let up on myself.
Yep, this for me too.
I'm big on having a growth mindset in life, and I do - I would like to be better than I was. It's a thing.
HOWEVER, there's some quote somewhere about anything worth doing well is worth half-assing and. Yes. It is better to do 5 minutes of exercise than none. It is better to wash your face than wash nothing if you can't shower because bad depression day. It is better to do the half-*kitten* than to do NOTHING.
And my perfectionistic self needed to learn and has to continually remember that there is an option between "WILDLY SUCCESSFUL" and "Don't do it."
Anything worth doing is worth half-assing.8 -
Speakeasy76 wrote: »Whatsthemotive wrote: »Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.
Right! Never let perfection get in the way of really good...
I cringe at the word perfection. It lacks flexibility, creativity, and it’s also aged out. If we considered new technology in the 80’s/90’s to be perfect we would never innovate. We need to be progressive on our ever evolving approach to the new world unfolding before us. If you think you’re perfect or know what perfect looks like, you’re already light years behind the curve. There is no perfect. There is just evolution.
That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre. There is no wrong or right, just personal preference.
As someone with perfectionistic tendencies that I've only recently come to realize has held me back/contributed to my anxiety, I don't see "good enough" as mediocre or fine. "Good enough" is a relative term, and everyone defines what there own "good enough" is. I have had to teach myself that "good enough" is okay some days, and I'm not going to the "best me" every day. That absolutely doesn't mean I'm not going to strive to better myself in areas that I feel need improving, but I also have to know when to let up on myself.
I agree, we all need to decide what is best for us individually. Only we know what is too much, and what is not enough. It’s highly personal.2 -
Whatsthemotive wrote: »Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.
Right! Never let perfection get in the way of really good...
I cringe at the word perfection. It lacks flexibility, creativity, and it’s also aged out. If we considered new technology in the 80’s/90’s to be perfect we would never innovate. We need to be progressive on our ever evolving approach to the new world unfolding before us. If you think you’re perfect or know what perfect looks like, you’re already light years behind the curve. There is no perfect. There is just evolution.
That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre. There is no wrong or right, just personal preference.
Nah, at least not for me. Not everything in life ought to be about perfection, IMO. Some things are that important; other things, good enough is good enough. Priorities allow for (near-)perfection where needful or strongly desirable, allow satisficing in other areas.
There are a lot of things we do in life. Trying to "perfect" every single one seems a little desperate, obsessive to me. But if it works for you, go for it.
Talking in abstractions is easy, though.3 -
Whatsthemotive wrote: »Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.
Right! Never let perfection get in the way of really good...
I cringe at the word perfection. It lacks flexibility, creativity, and it’s also aged out. If we considered new technology in the 80’s/90’s to be perfect we would never innovate. We need to be progressive on our ever evolving approach to the new world unfolding before us. If you think you’re perfect or know what perfect looks like, you’re already light years behind the curve. There is no perfect. There is just evolution.
That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre. There is no wrong or right, just personal preference.
Nah, at least not for me. Not everything in life ought to be about perfection, IMO. Some things are that important; other things, good enough is good enough. Priorities allow for (near-)perfection where needful or strongly desirable, allow satisficing in other areas.
There are a lot of things we do in life. Trying to "perfect" every single one seems a little desperate, obsessive to me. But if it works for you, go for it.
Talking in abstractions is easy, though.
I just said I don’t believe in perfection, so what makes you think I strive for it 🤔 I just don’t settle for, meh it’s good enough. Which means something different for different people. To me, when I do that, it means I don’t care. So I won’t stop there because I do care. I typically try to do my best. Even if that means my cake looks like *kitten*, I tried lol.6 -
Speakeasy76 wrote: »Whatsthemotive wrote: »Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.
Right! Never let perfection get in the way of really good...
I cringe at the word perfection. It lacks flexibility, creativity, and it’s also aged out. If we considered new technology in the 80’s/90’s to be perfect we would never innovate. We need to be progressive on our ever evolving approach to the new world unfolding before us. If you think you’re perfect or know what perfect looks like, you’re already light years behind the curve. There is no perfect. There is just evolution.
That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre. There is no wrong or right, just personal preference.
As someone with perfectionistic tendencies that I've only recently come to realize has held me back/contributed to my anxiety, I don't see "good enough" as mediocre or fine. "Good enough" is a relative term, and everyone defines what there own "good enough" is. I have had to teach myself that "good enough" is okay some days, and I'm not going to the "best me" every day. That absolutely doesn't mean I'm not going to strive to better myself in areas that I feel need improving, but I also have to know when to let up on myself.
^^^All... Of... This...^^^
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Whatsthemotive wrote: »Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.
Right! Never let perfection get in the way of really good...
I cringe at the word perfection. It lacks flexibility, creativity, and it’s also aged out. If we considered new technology in the 80’s/90’s to be perfect we would never innovate. We need to be progressive on our ever evolving approach to the new world unfolding before us. If you think you’re perfect or know what perfect looks like, you’re already light years behind the curve. There is no perfect. There is just evolution.
That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre. There is no wrong or right, just personal preference.
Nah, at least not for me. Not everything in life ought to be about perfection, IMO. Some things are that important; other things, good enough is good enough. Priorities allow for (near-)perfection where needful or strongly desirable, allow satisficing in other areas.
There are a lot of things we do in life. Trying to "perfect" every single one seems a little desperate, obsessive to me. But if it works for you, go for it.
Talking in abstractions is easy, though.
I just said I don’t believe in perfection, so what makes you think I strive for it 🤔 I just don’t settle for, meh it’s good enough. Which means something different for different people. To me, when I do that, it means I don’t care. So I won’t stop there because I do care. I typically try to do my best. Even if that means my cake looks like *kitten*, I tried lol.
Maybe it was this...
"That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre..."
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Whatsthemotive wrote: »Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.
Right! Never let perfection get in the way of really good...
I cringe at the word perfection. It lacks flexibility, creativity, and it’s also aged out. If we considered new technology in the 80’s/90’s to be perfect we would never innovate. We need to be progressive on our ever evolving approach to the new world unfolding before us. If you think you’re perfect or know what perfect looks like, you’re already light years behind the curve. There is no perfect. There is just evolution.
That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre. There is no wrong or right, just personal preference.
Nah, at least not for me. Not everything in life ought to be about perfection, IMO. Some things are that important; other things, good enough is good enough. Priorities allow for (near-)perfection where needful or strongly desirable, allow satisficing in other areas.
There are a lot of things we do in life. Trying to "perfect" every single one seems a little desperate, obsessive to me. But if it works for you, go for it.
Talking in abstractions is easy, though.
I just said I don’t believe in perfection, so what makes you think I strive for it 🤔 I just don’t settle for, meh it’s good enough. Which means something different for different people. To me, when I do that, it means I don’t care. So I won’t stop there because I do care. I typically try to do my best. Even if that means my cake looks like *kitten*, I tried lol.
Maybe it was this...
"That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre..."
... “ To me, when I do that, it means I don’t care. So I won’t stop there because I do care. I typically try to do my best. Even if that means my cake looks like *kitten*, I tried lol”
And... “ I agree, we all need to decide what is best for us individually. Only we know what is too much, and what is not enough. It’s highly personal.”
I just outlined what it means -to me-. I also agree with Speakeasy, because that’s what works for them. I am equally allowed to do and feel certain ways about myself as you do, right? And I don’t feel that others are wrong for their approach.1 -
Whatsthemotive wrote: »Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.
Right! Never let perfection get in the way of really good...
I cringe at the word perfection. It lacks flexibility, creativity, and it’s also aged out. If we considered new technology in the 80’s/90’s to be perfect we would never innovate. We need to be progressive on our ever evolving approach to the new world unfolding before us. If you think you’re perfect or know what perfect looks like, you’re already light years behind the curve. There is no perfect. There is just evolution.
That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre. There is no wrong or right, just personal preference.
Nah, at least not for me. Not everything in life ought to be about perfection, IMO. Some things are that important; other things, good enough is good enough. Priorities allow for (near-)perfection where needful or strongly desirable, allow satisficing in other areas.
There are a lot of things we do in life. Trying to "perfect" every single one seems a little desperate, obsessive to me. But if it works for you, go for it.
Talking in abstractions is easy, though.
Yep, this.
I am not giving 100% of myself to everything in my life. Some things, sure, but there is only so much 'try' and 'drive' in ANY person. We all make decisions about what is worth our time and energy - and everything we give to, is taking time and effort and energy away from something else. This is just simple reality. Time and energy are finite.
Where you put them are personal decisions.
For me? Relationships. Family. Mental and physical health. Making memories and having experiences. And even there the math shifts around sometimes.
My physical appearance/a perfect body?
No.
Other people want to go ahead but for me that would be a... pitiable and sad life, and not one worth living. I'd pretty strongly dislike myself for that.
(For me. Since we're all just talking about ourselves and judgement proof)
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IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »deputy_randolph wrote: »I think sometimes people need the caveat of "unrealistic" attached to their idealized body type, b/c if they keep fantasizing about this body type and don't achieve it (often ppl want to achieve it quickly), they will give up completely or have adverse psychological effects.
So prefacing some statements with "Yes this body type is achievable, BUT isn't realistic for most people" is just honest. Are most people going to achieve the level of "professional" instagrammer bodies? No, it isn't a realistic goal for most people.
I agree. The statements that bugged me were both to younger people, both already in decent shape regarding a flat stomach and sub 10% bf. It felt like they were imposing that caveat on other people, almost like "since I don't have the dedication, you won't either."
My thoughts as well...now regarding the sub 10% bf, and the popular consensus that it's not sustainable or healthy long term as a "blanket statement" for all humans, is misinformation.
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Whatsthemotive wrote: »Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.
Right! Never let perfection get in the way of really good...
I cringe at the word perfection. It lacks flexibility, creativity, and it’s also aged out. If we considered new technology in the 80’s/90’s to be perfect we would never innovate. We need to be progressive on our ever evolving approach to the new world unfolding before us. If you think you’re perfect or know what perfect looks like, you’re already light years behind the curve. There is no perfect. There is just evolution.
That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre. There is no wrong or right, just personal preference.
Nah, at least not for me. Not everything in life ought to be about perfection, IMO. Some things are that important; other things, good enough is good enough. Priorities allow for (near-)perfection where needful or strongly desirable, allow satisficing in other areas.
There are a lot of things we do in life. Trying to "perfect" every single one seems a little desperate, obsessive to me. But if it works for you, go for it.
Talking in abstractions is easy, though.
I just said I don’t believe in perfection, so what makes you think I strive for it 🤔 I just don’t settle for, meh it’s good enough. Which means something different for different people. To me, when I do that, it means I don’t care. So I won’t stop there because I do care. I typically try to do my best. Even if that means my cake looks like *kitten*, I tried lol.
Maybe it was this...
"That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre..."
... “ To me, when I do that, it means I don’t care. So I won’t stop there because I do care. I typically try to do my best. Even if that means my cake looks like *kitten*, I tried lol”
And... “ I agree, we all need to decide what is best for us individually. Only we know what is too much, and what is not enough. It’s highly personal.”
I just outlined what it means -to me-. I also agree with Speakeasy, because that’s what works for them. I am equally allowed to do and feel certain ways about myself as you do, right? And I don’t feel that others are wrong for their approach.
I don't think you meant it to sound this way, but when you say it's fine for others to stop at good enough but "fine is not remotely okay for me," it sounds a bit patronizing.
I think where we differ is in our personal description of perfectionism. To me, perfectionism is not the pursuit of actual perfection, despite the name. I think perfectionism is never being satisfied with someone (including one's self) or something, never being able to accept anything as "good enough." When I think this way, it's a relentless pursuit and a constant feeling of dissatisfaction and discontent--at least to me. I either become obsessed and hyper-focused on my goals, or don't try at all--since I'll never live up to my own expectations.
As I said, I do set goals for myself and have general areas on which I'd like to improve. I have to really ask myself why I want to improve in certain areas, though. I used to have this idea that I wanted to better than most people (if not all), and still struggle with this. If I'm wanting to improve upon something or have specific goals I want to achieve--what is the purpose of those goals? Is it to improve my overall quality of life in some way, or is to please others or feel like I'm "the best" at something?5 -
Speakeasy76 wrote: »Whatsthemotive wrote: »Perfection can be the enemy of good. Perfection can be the enemy of good mental health.
Right! Never let perfection get in the way of really good...
I cringe at the word perfection. It lacks flexibility, creativity, and it’s also aged out. If we considered new technology in the 80’s/90’s to be perfect we would never innovate. We need to be progressive on our ever evolving approach to the new world unfolding before us. If you think you’re perfect or know what perfect looks like, you’re already light years behind the curve. There is no perfect. There is just evolution.
That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre. There is no wrong or right, just personal preference.
Nah, at least not for me. Not everything in life ought to be about perfection, IMO. Some things are that important; other things, good enough is good enough. Priorities allow for (near-)perfection where needful or strongly desirable, allow satisficing in other areas.
There are a lot of things we do in life. Trying to "perfect" every single one seems a little desperate, obsessive to me. But if it works for you, go for it.
Talking in abstractions is easy, though.
I just said I don’t believe in perfection, so what makes you think I strive for it 🤔 I just don’t settle for, meh it’s good enough. Which means something different for different people. To me, when I do that, it means I don’t care. So I won’t stop there because I do care. I typically try to do my best. Even if that means my cake looks like *kitten*, I tried lol.
Maybe it was this...
"That being said, I personally don’t like to stop at “good enough”. Some do, that’s fine. Fine is not remotely okay for me. I don’t expect others to approach their personal goals the way I do, but I will not settle for what I believe to be mediocre..."
... “ To me, when I do that, it means I don’t care. So I won’t stop there because I do care. I typically try to do my best. Even if that means my cake looks like *kitten*, I tried lol”
And... “ I agree, we all need to decide what is best for us individually. Only we know what is too much, and what is not enough. It’s highly personal.”
I just outlined what it means -to me-. I also agree with Speakeasy, because that’s what works for them. I am equally allowed to do and feel certain ways about myself as you do, right? And I don’t feel that others are wrong for their approach.
I don't think you meant it to sound this way, but when you say it's fine for others to stop at good enough but "fine is not remotely okay for me," it sounds a bit patronizing.
I think where we differ is in our personal description of perfectionism. To me, perfectionism is not the pursuit of actual perfection, despite the name. I think perfectionism is never being satisfied with someone (including one's self) or something, never being able to accept anything as "good enough." When I think this way, it's a relentless pursuit and a constant feeling of dissatisfaction and discontent--at least to me. I either become obsessed and hyper-focused on my goals, or don't try at all--since I'll never live up to my own expectations.
As I said, I do set goals for myself and have general areas on which I'd like to improve. I have to really ask myself why I want to improve in certain areas, though. I used to have this idea that I wanted to better than most people (if not all), and still struggle with this. If I'm wanting to improve upon something or have specific goals I want to achieve--what is the purpose of those goals? Is it to improve my overall quality of life in some way, or is to please others or feel like I'm "the best" at something?
You’re right I didn’t mean it that way, I could have worded it better/differently and probably should have.
I’ve always been very ambitious, my sister has always been lackadaisical, we learn something from each other all the time. She’s my best friend and probably my favorite person, and we couldn’t be more opposite. She would wear slippers and pajama pants in a grocery store. I’d be walking next to her in Bottega Veneta, and neither one of us could be bothered with what other people think of us. We do what we do because it makes us happy. There’s no right way to be, just the way that brings you satisfaction and peace.
I’m sorry you struggle with being hypercritical of yourself. It doesn’t help that the media is making it even more difficult to love ourselves the way we are. I read here from someone a few times and really liked it, Comparison is the thief of joy. It’s so true.2 -
The OP appeared to be identifying “perfection” goals. I suppose part of the issue is that people may not be using common definitions. For example, what is meant by a flat stomach. I noticed that some people disagreed with my statement that women have organs. Which is odd. Because clearly women have organs. I suppose the dispute is whether those organs prevent a healthy woman from having a “flat stomach.” I’m not worried about me. But I’ve got two daughters in their 20s. I want them to be fit and healthy. I don’t think some of the images thrown at them are healthy.7
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Whatsthemotive wrote: »The OP appeared to be identifying “perfection” goals. I suppose part of the issue is that people may not be using common definitions. For example, what is meant by a flat stomach. I noticed that some people disagreed with my statement that women have organs. Which is odd. Because clearly women have organs. I suppose the dispute is whether those organs prevent a healthy woman from having a “flat stomach.” I’m not worried about me. But I’ve got two daughters in their 20s. I want them to be fit and healthy. I don’t think some of the images thrown at them are healthy.
Yeah, this is something I waffle on and feel conflicted about. I'm not big into the "fat acceptance" movement (at least as far as saying that being obese is as perfectly healthy as weighing less - because of course people have dignity no matter their size or any other characteristic), but I do have a problem with the types of bodies we glorify as a culture - bodies that are literally impossible and spliced up via photo editing. I do value beauty and don't even necessarily mind having an ideal, but somewhere along the line there's this thing that happens where we harshly judge real individuals (including ourselves) for not meeting that ideal, for having scars, or being too old (which seems to get younger all the time and THAT's really alarming to me), and I interpret that as evidence of something really gone amiss.
I'm kind of "typing out loud" here so I don't know to what degree I am making any sense. Maybe that can serve as evidence that I am not really sure what I think about this yet. Undoubtedly, I think it's worth it to strive for excellence, to pursue becoming a better person. The degree and direction this takes will be individual. But one's inherent worth is not dependent on the degree to which they succeed or fail at that, and I think that's where I get cautious, because I think at least in Western, postmodern society, achievement trumps all, and if you exclude large swathes of the population from being able to achieve this very narrow set of standards, then that's not psychologically healthy on an individual or societal level.
You can swap out fitness here for academics, or employment, wealth, or any other metric we use and I think probably the same criticisms can roughly apply. But I'm probably moving too far past the topic thread at this point, sorry.
6 -
I agree. I also think that the obsession with competition and perfection create untold problems. I’m convinced that people are less active than they should be because there is so little space for sports activities unless kids excel. If you can’t be a competitive athlete, you needn’t apply. That’s not new either. In the early 1970s, my PE teacher/basketball coach assigned me to sweep the gymnasium instead of taking part in the activities of the class. I had moved into a small school where every girl was put on the basketball team. There was no option not to be on the team. The other girls had been playing as a team for a couple of years. I learned to avoid physical activity like the plague because I associated it with being ostracized and bullied.7
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I get what the OP is saying. I've seen a lot of threads refer to a healthy BMI range as unrealistic. I've also see a ton of people put quotes around the words overweight and obese as though they were part of the marginal body builder exception, when in reality they're overweight or obese. As a woman who is 5'6" the ideal range is 115lbs-154lbs. So at 120lbs and 5'6" a person would be a healthy weight and I bet they'd have a flat stomach- nothing unrealistic about it. Of course losing 50lbs in 2 weeks is unrealistic or gaining muscle mass while refusing to workout is unrealistic, but most things I've seen referred to as unrealistic are actually entirely possible, although difficult. Difficult to attain and unrealistic are different in my book.5
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As someone who sees a lot of women naked?
No. not even 120lb 5'6" woman has a flat lower stomach - at least not for a whole month (if they have a uterus) or a whole day (depending on what and when they've last eaten and pooped). In fact even at lower weights (the woman I'm thinking about is about 5'6 and weighs 112lbs) doesn't even have a flat lower stomach.
And one who has lost quite a lot of weight or had kids doesn't for any part of the month.9 -
I've seen a lot of threads refer to a healthy BMI range as unrealistic.
I've seen posters with weight to lose saying it would be in their case (and in some cases guys in really good shape saying that, likely correctly).
What I've never seen is what OP seemed to be suggesting -- a bunch of posters jumping in and telling someone who said she was 5'3 and had a goal weight of 115 (within the healthy range) that such a goal would be unrealistic. Not only haven't I seen that, but I honestly would be shocked to see it on MFP, as it is not at all how the conversations I've seen go (and none of the regular posters are likely to think a weight in the healthy range is unrealistic when the poster herself or himself does not).I've also see a ton of people put quotes around the words overweight and obese as though they were part of the marginal body builder exception, when in reality they're overweight or obese.
Same comments as above, except it seems even more clear that you aren't really talking about community reaction, as I think OP was, but an individual who doesn't think he or she (it's usually a he) is overweight at a particular weight. If someone has a lot to lose, I think they are likely to change their mind as they lose, and there are a number of in shape men on this site who are technically overweight but have other evidence (BF% measurement or waste measurement) that makes me think they are right. It's not all that uncommon for men to be at a decent BF% despite having an overweight (rarely obese) BMI -- I recently listened to an interesting Sigma Nutrition that discussed the issue.
Bigger point is that if some guy says I'm 15% BF and happy with that and don't care about my overweight BMI, it's not an issue -- as OP claimed -- of the community being discouraging.As a woman who is 5'6" the ideal range is 115lbs-154lbs. So at 120lbs and 5'6" a person would be a healthy weight and I bet they'd have a flat stomach- nothing unrealistic about it.
Whether it is unrealistic depends on the person and what they mean by flat stomach, but just being a healthy weight hardly means you will have a flat stomach. Often it is going to depend on when the fat comes off your middle vs other areas, loose skin (from weight loss or pregnancy), age, and may require strength training. And for some it may not be realistic given their other goals (i.e., if it leaves them too thin for their taste in other areas) or stuff that really can't be fixed without surgery (loose skin).
Typically, though, I don't see people being discouraging (again) if someone says she wants to work on her stomach. There's even a great thread called "So You Want a Great Stomach" or something similar that gets recommended (and is inspiring).3
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