Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.

"Unrealistic" body goals

18911131418

Replies

  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 31,717 Member
    edited October 2020
    I'm going to quote myself and comment below, in a way that's related but not direct to the point of the thread. I've been thinking about these issues as I read replies on the thread, and there's an aspect I find odd.
    AnnPT77 wrote: »

    I agree that we're seeing more obese people over the last 40 years or so, but the idea that it was historically normal to be what (I think) we'd refer to as "lean" in threads like this . . . I think that's inaccurate.

    People had less bodyfat. The defined muscularity was not common, nor was single digit body fat coipled with muscularity. A more wiry than defined build was probably more common among average people, even people with quite intense physical jobs. What we'd call "skinny" now was very common, even among demographics with fairly physical work (farmers are the ones I'm most familiar with).

    Most of the handsome young male film idols of the 1940s-1960s aren't what we'd consider normal in that same kind of group today - much less shredded, generally, even at movie swimsuit time. To the extent there are photos of circus strongmen from the 1800s, most are fairly muscular, but still I think on average a bit short of what we'd consider normal in bodybuilders today (even sub-elite but serious ones) Further, many of those 1800s strongmen don't have extremely low bodyfat. Often, there is enough bodyfat that abs don't show, though the rest of the physique suggests that they're there under that bit of fat layer. There have been bodybuilders per se (appearance focused physique) for a very long time, but they've always been a small minority.

    The appearance standards for "good looking fit normal guy" are more defined and muscular now/recently, than has been true over my lifetime (b. 1955). Am I saying the standards are unrealistic? No, I'm saying that they've changed, noticably, toward low bodyfat and defined muscularity.

    Usually, the "obesity epidemic" is said to have begun somewhere around the 1980s. (I was 25 in 1980, for context, so my "noticing bodies" hormones had been in the "on" position for over a decade at that point.)

    Without doing a big bundle of reseach, I think the obesity incidence trend and the muscularity/toned aspiration "look" have risen in parallel, loosely speaking. Looking at some photos of "good looking" aspirational celebrity appearance examples over the years, the aspirational appearance (in popular culture) seems to have moved toward defined muscularity for men, and "toned" appearance for women (in a way that would've been seen as undesirably muscular in say, 1970).

    I suspect the fitness level inthe general population may've been on a somewhat similar track to the obesity trend. That's more complicated, though, so a more tentative thought. For sure, the average person's daily life has gotten much less active (incidental life activity) over those decades, but intentional exercise seems much more popular.

    OTOH, while gyms and the like are all over the place now compared to then, the people I see in mine (and judging from multi-aged friends' routines), many people's exercise routine is fairly mild (that's not a criticism), maybe kind of pro forma. It also seems like - around here - hobby type activities with a strong physical component are attracting fewer people, especially younger people. (I'm talking about things like commonness of dancing as a lifel-long hobby, how many people seem to do things like canoeing often or belong to clubs for that sort of thing, the size of adult sports leagues of various sorts around here, etc.). Cycling for transportation is more popular, though, I think. All of this fitness bit is observational on my side, though, so quite likely biased by where and who I am.

    This is an imperfect kind of correlation, I'm sure; and there are certainly individual counter-examples along the way (celebrities seen as physically desirable who don't fit that muscular/toned mold). But I think there is a loose cooincidence between those trends, of aspirational appearance becoming more fit/muscular, even as the population has become on average more overweight and less active.

    This probably has some implications for what people see as realistic, or not so much, but could cut either/both ways.
  • NovusDies
    NovusDies Posts: 8,940 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    Mellouk89 wrote: »
    My sister is morbidly obese, has been that way for most of her life and will probably stay that way. I don't think she lacks "discipline" or whatever that was stated here. She went to school for a very long time, got a good solid job. Wakes up every morning and rarely miss a day of work.

    I think it's a case of people being disciplined in other areas and not putting as much efforts in their fitness and health. I don't know if that makes sense?

    Because I can say she's probably more disciplined and organized than me but in other areas of her life.

    Interesting observiation. I think that's absolutely common.

    I found Novus's explanation of how it applied to him very interesting, too, because it's quite different from what I'd say of myself. Personally, I've found that I can *focus* on a limited number of dynamic areas. There was a time when it was mostly career and marriage. Now retired and widowed, those aren't in the picture. My focus on finances have switched on and off over the years, but in a mode that put decent habits in place for the unfocused times, so that's worked out OK (probably looks "disciplined and organized" from the outside, but really, really isn't).

    Cancer (and the physical depletion that came with treatment) increased my focus on activity and fitness. A decade or so later, I finally acknowledged (echo of Novus here) that health issue such as my blood lips/blood pressure were not responding sufficiently to fitness alone, and I turned more focus to weight management.

    I think for some people like me, there's a question of how many balls we can keep in the air at one time, regarding things that *actively* require attention, discipline, and organization (vs. can just run on autopilot-type habits). Denial is a factor, but possibly having a limited capacity for focus is another.

    There are certainly very successful peole who can (seemingly) achieve discipline, organization, and actual improvement of their behavior/habits in many areas at once . . . but I don't think that type of person is super common.

    I am not one of the super people. Trust me. I just reprioritized things. One of the things that is not immediately easy for a self employed person is to fire B and C clients. These are one that take as much, sometimes more, time than A clients but are less profitable and/or they do not pay timely.

    Of course this year business has sucked and I am not 100 percent sure what happens next. I might be happy with some B and C clients right now. lol
  • rheddmobile
    rheddmobile Posts: 6,840 Member
    NovusDies wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    Mellouk89 wrote: »
    My sister is morbidly obese, has been that way for most of her life and will probably stay that way. I don't think she lacks "discipline" or whatever that was stated here. She went to school for a very long time, got a good solid job. Wakes up every morning and rarely miss a day of work.

    I think it's a case of people being disciplined in other areas and not putting as much efforts in their fitness and health. I don't know if that makes sense?

    Because I can say she's probably more disciplined and organized than me but in other areas of her life.

    Interesting observiation. I think that's absolutely common.

    I found Novus's explanation of how it applied to him very interesting, too, because it's quite different from what I'd say of myself. Personally, I've found that I can *focus* on a limited number of dynamic areas. There was a time when it was mostly career and marriage. Now retired and widowed, those aren't in the picture. My focus on finances have switched on and off over the years, but in a mode that put decent habits in place for the unfocused times, so that's worked out OK (probably looks "disciplined and organized" from the outside, but really, really isn't).

    Cancer (and the physical depletion that came with treatment) increased my focus on activity and fitness. A decade or so later, I finally acknowledged (echo of Novus here) that health issue such as my blood lips/blood pressure were not responding sufficiently to fitness alone, and I turned more focus to weight management.

    I think for some people like me, there's a question of how many balls we can keep in the air at one time, regarding things that *actively* require attention, discipline, and organization (vs. can just run on autopilot-type habits). Denial is a factor, but possibly having a limited capacity for focus is another.

    There are certainly very successful peole who can (seemingly) achieve discipline, organization, and actual improvement of their behavior/habits in many areas at once . . . but I don't think that type of person is super common.

    I am not one of the super people. Trust me. I just reprioritized things. One of the things that is not immediately easy for a self employed person is to fire B and C clients. These are one that take as much, sometimes more, time than A clients but are less profitable and/or they do not pay timely.

    Of course this year business has sucked and I am not 100 percent sure what happens next. I might be happy with some B and C clients right now. lol
    Oh man. I feel like this year has been nothing but Cs and Ds! I’m even grateful for the D clients (the ones who might pay someday or frankly they just might not) at the moment!

    I feel like @Mellouk89 has a point. There have been times in my life when exercise and appearance were just not priorities. It takes a lot of time and effort to procure decent meals and work out, compared to days past when crunch time has meant trying to get in a pizza order before Dominos closes at 1 am then working 24 hrs without a break for a shower. Not a lot of time for long runs, shopping, or food prep.
  • MPyLP
    MPyLP Posts: 25 Member
    I am being discouraged from trying to lose at least 30 lbs in 4-5 months. I'm being told I can't do it bc they don't think it's possible. I already watch what I eat and exercise and im trying to add more fiber and protein. I've done it before so I know I can. Their excuse is bc now I've been diagnosed with Endo what they don't know is it is BC of that that I want to lose weight. I dont want this to define me and keep me from what I have always loved to do.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 31,717 Member
    MPyLP wrote: »
    I am being discouraged from trying to lose at least 30 lbs in 4-5 months. I'm being told I can't do it bc they don't think it's possible. I already watch what I eat and exercise and im trying to add more fiber and protein. I've done it before so I know I can. Their excuse is bc now I've been diagnosed with Endo what they don't know is it is BC of that that I want to lose weight. I dont want this to define me and keep me from what I have always loved to do.

    I have no doubt that it's possible. I have doubts that it's healthy, for most people - unless under close medical supervision for nutritional adequacy or health complications throughout. Some people are so very obese that the obesity itself creates more health risk than the risk of an aggressively fast weight loss: Perhaps that's your scenario, but that's a question for your doctor, not us. For those not in that situation, a goal being realistic is not the only measure of whether it's a positive goal.

    This site being open to the public, we're free to offer our viewpoints, constrained by the terms of service to which we agreed. (BTW: The terms of service prohibit discussion of very low calorie diets . . . . )
  • siberiantarragon
    siberiantarragon Posts: 265 Member
    edited January 2021
    It depends on what it is. Getting into the healthy weight range is a realistic goal for almost everyone, and can be done with relatively few disruptions to one's life (you don't have to spend hours in the gym, cut out entire food groups, or even exercise at all).

    A lot of people think they can't do it, or it's not a priority for them, or they really deep down have no desire to do it, so they turn that into "it's an unrealistic goal for me." And as for other people telling you that being a certain weight is an unrealistic goal -- well, that's probably just their own projection, or even a subtle form of sabotage.

    I even wonder a lot of times if these unrealistically restrictive lose-weight-fast diets people go on are a subtle form of self-sabotage, as in "See? I told you I can't lose weight, it's impossible!"

    Getting a certain physique, like really large muscles or something, is a less realistic goal, both because of the time commitment and because of health issues that may preclude strenuous exercise. But it's still doable for many people if it's your priority. However, you may also find that it's not a priority after all. I used to wish I looked more muscular until I went to a Brazilian jiu jitsu class and realized that, even though many of the women there were strong, most of them really weren't visibly muscular. So there's kind of a difference between "vanity muscles" and having enough strength to do what you want to do.

    (Also, sometimes working out can actually be counterproductive. My husband works out too much and oftentimes he is tired and sore for the rest of the day and can barely do anything. Whereas I do pretty light exercise but if I need to do something, I have the energy for it. When we were moving a few weeks ago, I had more energy to carry everything up and down the stairs than he did, even though he works out a lot more!)
  • siberiantarragon
    siberiantarragon Posts: 265 Member
    I'm a bit torn here, because the statistics on obese people losing weight and maintaining in the healthy weight range long term show that it is unlikely.

    Well, if one goes into it with that attitude, they're setting themselves up to fail. We don't tell alcoholics and drug addicts that getting sober is "unrealistic."
    I think it's more accurate to say that we know how weight management functions in the context of activity and calories consumed, but we don't yet have a great understanding of why some people are just unable to maintain weight loss long term. If the context is most people who set out to do something fail, I don't know if a goal is truly realistic.

    The fact that we don't have research on this says a lot. There's certainly a large enough sample size of obese people out there to study and find out why some cannot maintain weight loss. But apparently it isn't a priority. Maybe that's why losing weight, and preventing from gaining in the first place, ends up not being a priority for so many people.

    We have a society that normalizes obesity and tells people that it isn't a big deal to be obese, and enables being addicted to food. Even on MFP, stating that obesity increases the risk of health problems will get you yelled at and branded as a "fat shamer." If we normalized, say, heroin use the same way we normalize overeating, we'd probably have a lot more heroin addicts, too. The countries which maintain low levels of obesity tend to be countries where obesity is considered to be a problem and not normalized, and that should tell us something. Basically, the way we normalize food addiction now, is similar to how alcohol addiction was normalized in the US in the decades before Prohibition.
    the time I've spent listening to obese people or people who used to be obese has opened my eyes to the fact obesity isn't just like being overweight.

    In what way? I'm not sure about that. "Obesity" and "overweight" are kind of arbitrary terms -- it's a spectrum, not a dichotomy. Like someone who is just slightly into the obese range probably has more in common health-wise with an overweight person than with a person who is 600 pounds. Also, in my experience, a lot of people who are slightly in the obese range are in denial that they are obese, and think they're just slightly overweight. And a lot of overweight people are in denial that they're overweight. This seems to be particularly common in men.
    I know some highly accomplished people who are obese and seem truly motivated to lose weight. They aren't dumber than me, it's not like I have some understanding of life or science that eludes them. What's the difference between the obese person who sets out to lose weight and does it long term and the many, many more who don't? I I have no idea.

    Beating an addiction doesn't really have to do with intelligence. It has to do with willpower.

  • siberiantarragon
    siberiantarragon Posts: 265 Member
    edited January 2021
    Lietchi wrote: »
    Equating obesity to food addiction and making an analogy with heroin and alcohol addiction? I'm offended at that generalization, quite frankly, as someone who used to be obese.

    Why?

    (BTW, this is exactly the type of thing I was talking about in my post above about getting yelled at.)