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"Unrealistic" body goals
Replies
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janejellyroll wrote: »@qhob_89 The thing is, I don't ever see anyone here just tell someone their goal is unrealistic. I always see caring, encouraging, instructive posts that try to show them how much they can accomplish if they focus on the right things. That's really my point - I think the OP has oversimplified the situation that bothered him, and it's gotten extrapolated into slamming things that don't actually happen here. And if there is occasionally a blunt discouraging post, it is typically overwhelmed by great advice. So I'm curious if anyone so passionate about not discouraging posters is actually seeing lots of these bitter pathetic posts discouraging newbies from their dreams right now? Because I can't find them. There might be an odd post every once and awhile that hits at an off time and after one bad reply gets buried behind newer posts, but I just don't see this regularly here.
I think where it gets hard is that for many people having big, lofty goals that require extraordinary effort is demotivating. So if you try to help those people set more realistic goals, you're HELPING them. For others, having big, lofty goals that require extraordinary effort is actually motivating. It gets them going. Telling those people to be "realistic" and set different goals is perceived as telling them to "quit."
The thing is, unless you're close to someone and know how they operate, sometimes it's hard to tell who is who online.
I think this is an important point. There seems to be an assumption that everyone is motivated in the same way by the same things. I know plenty of perfectionists who never accomplish anything because they'd rather not try than do something half way. I know plenty of people who constantly feel like failures because the fitness industry is setting them up with unrealistic expectations. I've seen countless posters helped by learning how to set and recognize realistic goals, and enjoy small seemingly unremarkable successes.
Anyhoo, we were due for a "You guys give bad advice" thread, so I guess I shouldn't complain
I was helped enormously here by learning from the veterans how weight loss and recomp work and what's realistic to see when, so I'll keep paying that forward!
I actually kind of like the occasional meta thread about whether the average mode(s) of advice here are sub-ideal, or subsets of the advice actual damaging, and that sort of thing. As long as it stays in Debate, and at least some of the folks arguing each side are really willing to engage about the implications of various communication approaches, and not just be shouty or flag-wave-y, or post a pointed criticism then flounce off. (This thread has been reasonably OK in that way, to my taste.)
Not always, but sometimes it helps me learn things about others' cognitive styles, and how to communicate effectively to a diverse audience, and that sort of thing. If the topic were a daily deal, it'd get eye-roll-y, but every few months or a year, potentially helpful.
I'm Pollyanna-ing again, eh? 😉
We like that about you!
More seriously--and probably this goes to my cognitive style--I'm a hater of this type of thread. To my mind, it's rude, as it calls out everyone in a community and leads people wondering if they are being accused of things or, more likely, if they have been misunderstood, and it also lends itself to strawmanning and people jumping in to share vague beefs (not saying that specifically happened here, just speaking generally).
If I see a post that I find unhelpful in the way OP suggested, I will say so in the thread. Not necessarily in a confrontational way, of course, but by quoting and disagreeing nicely or just encouraging OP or saying I think the goal isn't necessarily unreasonable, even if it might be hard. Or sharing my success at doing something similar, if reasonable, depending on what it is. I don't think anything is ever gained by such general "people on this site are doing vague bad things," especially since you never know who has seen what threads. I think some find disagreeing in a thread more directly as somehow "meaner" than an anonymous complaint thread like this, but I would completely disagree, and would say unlike this kind of thread it actually might have the ability to be productive.
Exactly this. This OP bothers me, and exactly for the reasons you've given. Those who post and give encouragement often should have a thread thanking them. THAT doesn't happen, however.4 -
“A goal is not always meant to be reached, it often serves simply as something to aim at.”
-Bruce Lee
This is how I approach things too. I find lofty goals inspiring, and generally have lots of intermediate goals on the way to mark progress. People definitely are different in the style of goal setting that works for them.
Indeed...0 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."
Vince Lombardi
YES!1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »@qhob_89 The thing is, I don't ever see anyone here just tell someone their goal is unrealistic. I always see caring, encouraging, instructive posts that try to show them how much they can accomplish if they focus on the right things. That's really my point - I think the OP has oversimplified the situation that bothered him, and it's gotten extrapolated into slamming things that don't actually happen here. And if there is occasionally a blunt discouraging post, it is typically overwhelmed by great advice. So I'm curious if anyone so passionate about not discouraging posters is actually seeing lots of these bitter pathetic posts discouraging newbies from their dreams right now? Because I can't find them. There might be an odd post every once and awhile that hits at an off time and after one bad reply gets buried behind newer posts, but I just don't see this regularly here.
I think where it gets hard is that for many people having big, lofty goals that require extraordinary effort is demotivating. So if you try to help those people set more realistic goals, you're HELPING them. For others, having big, lofty goals that require extraordinary effort is actually motivating. It gets them going. Telling those people to be "realistic" and set different goals is perceived as telling them to "quit."
The thing is, unless you're close to someone and know how they operate, sometimes it's hard to tell who is who online.
I think this is an important point. There seems to be an assumption that everyone is motivated in the same way by the same things. I know plenty of perfectionists who never accomplish anything because they'd rather not try than do something half way. I know plenty of people who constantly feel like failures because the fitness industry is setting them up with unrealistic expectations. I've seen countless posters helped by learning how to set and recognize realistic goals, and enjoy small seemingly unremarkable successes.
Anyhoo, we were due for a "You guys give bad advice" thread, so I guess I shouldn't complain I was helped enormously here by learning from the veterans how weight loss and recomp work and what's realistic to see when, so I'll keep paying that forward!
I actually kind of like the occasional meta thread about whether the average mode(s) of advice here are sub-ideal, or subsets of the advice actual damaging, and that sort of thing. As long as it stays in Debate, and at least some of the folks arguing each side are really willing to engage about the implications of various communication approaches, and not just be shouty or flag-wave-y, or post a pointed criticism then flounce off. (This thread has been reasonably OK in that way, to my taste.)
Not always, but sometimes it helps me learn things about others' cognitive styles, and how to communicate effectively to a diverse audience, and that sort of thing. If the topic were a daily deal, it'd get eye-roll-y, but every few months or a year, potentially helpful.
I'm Pollyanna-ing again, eh? 😉
We like that about you!
More seriously--and probably this goes to my cognitive style--I'm a hater of this type of thread. To my mind, it's rude, as it calls out everyone in a community and leads people wondering if they are being accused of things or, more likely, if they have been misunderstood, and it also lends itself to strawmanning and people jumping in to share vague beefs (not saying that specifically happened here, just speaking generally).
If I see a post that I find unhelpful in the way OP suggested, I will say so in the thread. Not necessarily in a confrontational way, of course, but by quoting and disagreeing nicely or just encouraging OP or saying I think the goal isn't necessarily unreasonable, even if it might be hard. Or sharing my success at doing something similar, if reasonable, depending on what it is. I don't think anything is ever gained by such general "people on this site are doing vague bad things," especially since you never know who has seen what threads. I think some find disagreeing in a thread more directly as somehow "meaner" than an anonymous complaint thread like this, but I would completely disagree, and would say unlike this kind of thread it actually might have the ability to be productive.
The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.4 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »@qhob_89 The thing is, I don't ever see anyone here just tell someone their goal is unrealistic. I always see caring, encouraging, instructive posts that try to show them how much they can accomplish if they focus on the right things. That's really my point - I think the OP has oversimplified the situation that bothered him, and it's gotten extrapolated into slamming things that don't actually happen here. And if there is occasionally a blunt discouraging post, it is typically overwhelmed by great advice. So I'm curious if anyone so passionate about not discouraging posters is actually seeing lots of these bitter pathetic posts discouraging newbies from their dreams right now? Because I can't find them. There might be an odd post every once and awhile that hits at an off time and after one bad reply gets buried behind newer posts, but I just don't see this regularly here.
I think where it gets hard is that for many people having big, lofty goals that require extraordinary effort is demotivating. So if you try to help those people set more realistic goals, you're HELPING them. For others, having big, lofty goals that require extraordinary effort is actually motivating. It gets them going. Telling those people to be "realistic" and set different goals is perceived as telling them to "quit."
The thing is, unless you're close to someone and know how they operate, sometimes it's hard to tell who is who online.
I think this is an important point. There seems to be an assumption that everyone is motivated in the same way by the same things. I know plenty of perfectionists who never accomplish anything because they'd rather not try than do something half way. I know plenty of people who constantly feel like failures because the fitness industry is setting them up with unrealistic expectations. I've seen countless posters helped by learning how to set and recognize realistic goals, and enjoy small seemingly unremarkable successes.
Anyhoo, we were due for a "You guys give bad advice" thread, so I guess I shouldn't complain I was helped enormously here by learning from the veterans how weight loss and recomp work and what's realistic to see when, so I'll keep paying that forward!
I actually kind of like the occasional meta thread about whether the average mode(s) of advice here are sub-ideal, or subsets of the advice actual damaging, and that sort of thing. As long as it stays in Debate, and at least some of the folks arguing each side are really willing to engage about the implications of various communication approaches, and not just be shouty or flag-wave-y, or post a pointed criticism then flounce off. (This thread has been reasonably OK in that way, to my taste.)
Not always, but sometimes it helps me learn things about others' cognitive styles, and how to communicate effectively to a diverse audience, and that sort of thing. If the topic were a daily deal, it'd get eye-roll-y, but every few months or a year, potentially helpful.
I'm Pollyanna-ing again, eh? 😉
We like that about you!
More seriously--and probably this goes to my cognitive style--I'm a hater of this type of thread. To my mind, it's rude, as it calls out everyone in a community and leads people wondering if they are being accused of things or, more likely, if they have been misunderstood, and it also lends itself to strawmanning and people jumping in to share vague beefs (not saying that specifically happened here, just speaking generally).
If I see a post that I find unhelpful in the way OP suggested, I will say so in the thread. Not necessarily in a confrontational way, of course, but by quoting and disagreeing nicely or just encouraging OP or saying I think the goal isn't necessarily unreasonable, even if it might be hard. Or sharing my success at doing something similar, if reasonable, depending on what it is. I don't think anything is ever gained by such general "people on this site are doing vague bad things," especially since you never know who has seen what threads. I think some find disagreeing in a thread more directly as somehow "meaner" than an anonymous complaint thread like this, but I would completely disagree, and would say unlike this kind of thread it actually might have the ability to be productive.
The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
This place is LOUSY with people coming in here with unrealistic goals of super fast weight loss and building muscle mass faster than healthy or human. I cannot even tell you how many threads I have seen from people expecting to see results in the mirror after a week or two of a new program.
OF COURSE you will see lots of people try to temper expectations and set more realistic goals. That is called being helpful.
You throw enough time and process at something a lot of positive things can happen. Unfortunately we live in an impatient society that often wants immediate results to motivate them to continue. Do we just let them give up without even trying to help?
12 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »@qhob_89 The thing is, I don't ever see anyone here just tell someone their goal is unrealistic. I always see caring, encouraging, instructive posts that try to show them how much they can accomplish if they focus on the right things. That's really my point - I think the OP has oversimplified the situation that bothered him, and it's gotten extrapolated into slamming things that don't actually happen here. And if there is occasionally a blunt discouraging post, it is typically overwhelmed by great advice. So I'm curious if anyone so passionate about not discouraging posters is actually seeing lots of these bitter pathetic posts discouraging newbies from their dreams right now? Because I can't find them. There might be an odd post every once and awhile that hits at an off time and after one bad reply gets buried behind newer posts, but I just don't see this regularly here.
I think where it gets hard is that for many people having big, lofty goals that require extraordinary effort is demotivating. So if you try to help those people set more realistic goals, you're HELPING them. For others, having big, lofty goals that require extraordinary effort is actually motivating. It gets them going. Telling those people to be "realistic" and set different goals is perceived as telling them to "quit."
The thing is, unless you're close to someone and know how they operate, sometimes it's hard to tell who is who online.
I think this is an important point. There seems to be an assumption that everyone is motivated in the same way by the same things. I know plenty of perfectionists who never accomplish anything because they'd rather not try than do something half way. I know plenty of people who constantly feel like failures because the fitness industry is setting them up with unrealistic expectations. I've seen countless posters helped by learning how to set and recognize realistic goals, and enjoy small seemingly unremarkable successes.
Anyhoo, we were due for a "You guys give bad advice" thread, so I guess I shouldn't complain I was helped enormously here by learning from the veterans how weight loss and recomp work and what's realistic to see when, so I'll keep paying that forward!
I actually kind of like the occasional meta thread about whether the average mode(s) of advice here are sub-ideal, or subsets of the advice actual damaging, and that sort of thing. As long as it stays in Debate, and at least some of the folks arguing each side are really willing to engage about the implications of various communication approaches, and not just be shouty or flag-wave-y, or post a pointed criticism then flounce off. (This thread has been reasonably OK in that way, to my taste.)
Not always, but sometimes it helps me learn things about others' cognitive styles, and how to communicate effectively to a diverse audience, and that sort of thing. If the topic were a daily deal, it'd get eye-roll-y, but every few months or a year, potentially helpful.
I'm Pollyanna-ing again, eh? 😉
We like that about you!
More seriously--and probably this goes to my cognitive style--I'm a hater of this type of thread. To my mind, it's rude, as it calls out everyone in a community and leads people wondering if they are being accused of things or, more likely, if they have been misunderstood, and it also lends itself to strawmanning and people jumping in to share vague beefs (not saying that specifically happened here, just speaking generally).
If I see a post that I find unhelpful in the way OP suggested, I will say so in the thread. Not necessarily in a confrontational way, of course, but by quoting and disagreeing nicely or just encouraging OP or saying I think the goal isn't necessarily unreasonable, even if it might be hard. Or sharing my success at doing something similar, if reasonable, depending on what it is. I don't think anything is ever gained by such general "people on this site are doing vague bad things," especially since you never know who has seen what threads. I think some find disagreeing in a thread more directly as somehow "meaner" than an anonymous complaint thread like this, but I would completely disagree, and would say unlike this kind of thread it actually might have the ability to be productive.
The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
This place is LOUSY with people coming in here with unrealistic goals of super fast weight loss and building muscle mass faster than healthy or human. I cannot even tell you how many threads I have seen from people expecting to see results in the mirror after a week or two of a new program.
OF COURSE you will see lots of people try to temper expectations and set more realistic goals. That is called being helpful.
You throw enough time and process at something a lot of positive things can happen. Unfortunately we live in an impatient society that often wants immediate results to motivate them to continue. Do we just let them give up without even trying to help?
I agree with what you wrote but none of those things were the examples I gave. I'm talking about basic goals like a flat stomach or low bf% without a timeframe. As I stated, I had a goal that took over a decade. I'm not talking about helping people put a realistic time frame to their goals; I'm talking about how people will project their own limitations on something that is difficult but 100% doable onto someone else.
People keep trying to put words in my mouth as to the OP. I'm sure I could've worded it better but this was more meant to be a philosophical discussion about discouraging a realistic goal about than a "well theres this one person that keeps starting over and they always have this ridiculous goal and get depressed then quit over and over so it wouldn't help to encourage them!" discussion. Not sure why people responding cant just make a huge leap and assume we're NOT talking about a goal that is literally impossible because of a physical limitation or helping someone add milestones to their overall goal.3 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »@qhob_89 The thing is, I don't ever see anyone here just tell someone their goal is unrealistic. I always see caring, encouraging, instructive posts that try to show them how much they can accomplish if they focus on the right things. That's really my point - I think the OP has oversimplified the situation that bothered him, and it's gotten extrapolated into slamming things that don't actually happen here. And if there is occasionally a blunt discouraging post, it is typically overwhelmed by great advice. So I'm curious if anyone so passionate about not discouraging posters is actually seeing lots of these bitter pathetic posts discouraging newbies from their dreams right now? Because I can't find them. There might be an odd post every once and awhile that hits at an off time and after one bad reply gets buried behind newer posts, but I just don't see this regularly here.
I think where it gets hard is that for many people having big, lofty goals that require extraordinary effort is demotivating. So if you try to help those people set more realistic goals, you're HELPING them. For others, having big, lofty goals that require extraordinary effort is actually motivating. It gets them going. Telling those people to be "realistic" and set different goals is perceived as telling them to "quit."
The thing is, unless you're close to someone and know how they operate, sometimes it's hard to tell who is who online.
I think this is an important point. There seems to be an assumption that everyone is motivated in the same way by the same things. I know plenty of perfectionists who never accomplish anything because they'd rather not try than do something half way. I know plenty of people who constantly feel like failures because the fitness industry is setting them up with unrealistic expectations. I've seen countless posters helped by learning how to set and recognize realistic goals, and enjoy small seemingly unremarkable successes.
Anyhoo, we were due for a "You guys give bad advice" thread, so I guess I shouldn't complain I was helped enormously here by learning from the veterans how weight loss and recomp work and what's realistic to see when, so I'll keep paying that forward!
I actually kind of like the occasional meta thread about whether the average mode(s) of advice here are sub-ideal, or subsets of the advice actual damaging, and that sort of thing. As long as it stays in Debate, and at least some of the folks arguing each side are really willing to engage about the implications of various communication approaches, and not just be shouty or flag-wave-y, or post a pointed criticism then flounce off. (This thread has been reasonably OK in that way, to my taste.)
Not always, but sometimes it helps me learn things about others' cognitive styles, and how to communicate effectively to a diverse audience, and that sort of thing. If the topic were a daily deal, it'd get eye-roll-y, but every few months or a year, potentially helpful.
I'm Pollyanna-ing again, eh? 😉
We like that about you!
More seriously--and probably this goes to my cognitive style--I'm a hater of this type of thread. To my mind, it's rude, as it calls out everyone in a community and leads people wondering if they are being accused of things or, more likely, if they have been misunderstood, and it also lends itself to strawmanning and people jumping in to share vague beefs (not saying that specifically happened here, just speaking generally).
If I see a post that I find unhelpful in the way OP suggested, I will say so in the thread. Not necessarily in a confrontational way, of course, but by quoting and disagreeing nicely or just encouraging OP or saying I think the goal isn't necessarily unreasonable, even if it might be hard. Or sharing my success at doing something similar, if reasonable, depending on what it is. I don't think anything is ever gained by such general "people on this site are doing vague bad things," especially since you never know who has seen what threads. I think some find disagreeing in a thread more directly as somehow "meaner" than an anonymous complaint thread like this, but I would completely disagree, and would say unlike this kind of thread it actually might have the ability to be productive.
The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
This place is LOUSY with people coming in here with unrealistic goals of super fast weight loss and building muscle mass faster than healthy or human. I cannot even tell you how many threads I have seen from people expecting to see results in the mirror after a week or two of a new program.
OF COURSE you will see lots of people try to temper expectations and set more realistic goals. That is called being helpful.
You throw enough time and process at something a lot of positive things can happen. Unfortunately we live in an impatient society that often wants immediate results to motivate them to continue. Do we just let them give up without even trying to help?
I agree with what you wrote but none of those things were the examples I gave. I'm talking about basic goals like a flat stomach or low bf% without a timeframe. As I stated, I had a goal that took over a decade. I'm not talking about helping people put a realistic time frame to their goals; I'm talking about how people will project their own limitations on something that is difficult but 100% doable onto someone else.
People keep trying to put words in my mouth as to the OP. I'm sure I could've worded it better but this was more meant to be a philosophical discussion about discouraging a realistic goal about than a "well theres this one person that keeps starting over and they always have this ridiculous goal and get depressed then quit over and over so it wouldn't help to encourage them!" discussion. Not sure why people responding cant just make a huge leap and assume we're NOT talking about a goal that is literally impossible because of a physical limitation or helping someone add milestones to their overall goal.
What examples? I haven't seen any links to threads that you find problematic. Did I miss them?5 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »@qhob_89 The thing is, I don't ever see anyone here just tell someone their goal is unrealistic. I always see caring, encouraging, instructive posts that try to show them how much they can accomplish if they focus on the right things. That's really my point - I think the OP has oversimplified the situation that bothered him, and it's gotten extrapolated into slamming things that don't actually happen here. And if there is occasionally a blunt discouraging post, it is typically overwhelmed by great advice. So I'm curious if anyone so passionate about not discouraging posters is actually seeing lots of these bitter pathetic posts discouraging newbies from their dreams right now? Because I can't find them. There might be an odd post every once and awhile that hits at an off time and after one bad reply gets buried behind newer posts, but I just don't see this regularly here.
I think where it gets hard is that for many people having big, lofty goals that require extraordinary effort is demotivating. So if you try to help those people set more realistic goals, you're HELPING them. For others, having big, lofty goals that require extraordinary effort is actually motivating. It gets them going. Telling those people to be "realistic" and set different goals is perceived as telling them to "quit."
The thing is, unless you're close to someone and know how they operate, sometimes it's hard to tell who is who online.
I think this is an important point. There seems to be an assumption that everyone is motivated in the same way by the same things. I know plenty of perfectionists who never accomplish anything because they'd rather not try than do something half way. I know plenty of people who constantly feel like failures because the fitness industry is setting them up with unrealistic expectations. I've seen countless posters helped by learning how to set and recognize realistic goals, and enjoy small seemingly unremarkable successes.
Anyhoo, we were due for a "You guys give bad advice" thread, so I guess I shouldn't complain I was helped enormously here by learning from the veterans how weight loss and recomp work and what's realistic to see when, so I'll keep paying that forward!
I actually kind of like the occasional meta thread about whether the average mode(s) of advice here are sub-ideal, or subsets of the advice actual damaging, and that sort of thing. As long as it stays in Debate, and at least some of the folks arguing each side are really willing to engage about the implications of various communication approaches, and not just be shouty or flag-wave-y, or post a pointed criticism then flounce off. (This thread has been reasonably OK in that way, to my taste.)
Not always, but sometimes it helps me learn things about others' cognitive styles, and how to communicate effectively to a diverse audience, and that sort of thing. If the topic were a daily deal, it'd get eye-roll-y, but every few months or a year, potentially helpful.
I'm Pollyanna-ing again, eh? 😉
We like that about you!
More seriously--and probably this goes to my cognitive style--I'm a hater of this type of thread. To my mind, it's rude, as it calls out everyone in a community and leads people wondering if they are being accused of things or, more likely, if they have been misunderstood, and it also lends itself to strawmanning and people jumping in to share vague beefs (not saying that specifically happened here, just speaking generally).
If I see a post that I find unhelpful in the way OP suggested, I will say so in the thread. Not necessarily in a confrontational way, of course, but by quoting and disagreeing nicely or just encouraging OP or saying I think the goal isn't necessarily unreasonable, even if it might be hard. Or sharing my success at doing something similar, if reasonable, depending on what it is. I don't think anything is ever gained by such general "people on this site are doing vague bad things," especially since you never know who has seen what threads. I think some find disagreeing in a thread more directly as somehow "meaner" than an anonymous complaint thread like this, but I would completely disagree, and would say unlike this kind of thread it actually might have the ability to be productive.
The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
This place is LOUSY with people coming in here with unrealistic goals of super fast weight loss and building muscle mass faster than healthy or human. I cannot even tell you how many threads I have seen from people expecting to see results in the mirror after a week or two of a new program.
OF COURSE you will see lots of people try to temper expectations and set more realistic goals. That is called being helpful.
You throw enough time and process at something a lot of positive things can happen. Unfortunately we live in an impatient society that often wants immediate results to motivate them to continue. Do we just let them give up without even trying to help?
I agree with what you wrote but none of those things were the examples I gave. I'm talking about basic goals like a flat stomach or low bf% without a timeframe. As I stated, I had a goal that took over a decade. I'm not talking about helping people put a realistic time frame to their goals; I'm talking about how people will project their own limitations on something that is difficult but 100% doable onto someone else.
People keep trying to put words in my mouth as to the OP. I'm sure I could've worded it better but this was more meant to be a philosophical discussion about discouraging a realistic goal about than a "well theres this one person that keeps starting over and they always have this ridiculous goal and get depressed then quit over and over so it wouldn't help to encourage them!" discussion. Not sure why people responding cant just make a huge leap and assume we're NOT talking about a goal that is literally impossible because of a physical limitation or helping someone add milestones to their overall goal.
What examples? I haven't seen any links to threads that you find problematic. Did I miss them?
See the first paragraph of the OP and maybe you could take my word for their existence?1 -
I'm lazy, and haven't read anything except the OP....
Just want to say, I too disagree with calling those thing unrealistic. However, I do think people tend to have an unrealistic idea of how much effort your examples may take, and thus they seem "impossible". I suspect most models/celebrities/hotties on the street you see put alot more effort in at the gym than anyone realizes, and pays more attention to their diet than anyone realizes.7 -
4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »I'm lazy, and haven't read anything except the OP....
Just want to say, I too disagree with calling those thing unrealistic. However, I do think people tend to have an unrealistic idea of how much effort your examples may take, and thus they seem "impossible". I suspect most models/celebrities/hotties on the street you see put alot more effort in at the gym than anyone realizes, and pays more attention to their diet than anyone realizes.
This.1 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »@qhob_89 The thing is, I don't ever see anyone here just tell someone their goal is unrealistic. I always see caring, encouraging, instructive posts that try to show them how much they can accomplish if they focus on the right things. That's really my point - I think the OP has oversimplified the situation that bothered him, and it's gotten extrapolated into slamming things that don't actually happen here. And if there is occasionally a blunt discouraging post, it is typically overwhelmed by great advice. So I'm curious if anyone so passionate about not discouraging posters is actually seeing lots of these bitter pathetic posts discouraging newbies from their dreams right now? Because I can't find them. There might be an odd post every once and awhile that hits at an off time and after one bad reply gets buried behind newer posts, but I just don't see this regularly here.
I think where it gets hard is that for many people having big, lofty goals that require extraordinary effort is demotivating. So if you try to help those people set more realistic goals, you're HELPING them. For others, having big, lofty goals that require extraordinary effort is actually motivating. It gets them going. Telling those people to be "realistic" and set different goals is perceived as telling them to "quit."
The thing is, unless you're close to someone and know how they operate, sometimes it's hard to tell who is who online.
I think this is an important point. There seems to be an assumption that everyone is motivated in the same way by the same things. I know plenty of perfectionists who never accomplish anything because they'd rather not try than do something half way. I know plenty of people who constantly feel like failures because the fitness industry is setting them up with unrealistic expectations. I've seen countless posters helped by learning how to set and recognize realistic goals, and enjoy small seemingly unremarkable successes.
Anyhoo, we were due for a "You guys give bad advice" thread, so I guess I shouldn't complain I was helped enormously here by learning from the veterans how weight loss and recomp work and what's realistic to see when, so I'll keep paying that forward!
I actually kind of like the occasional meta thread about whether the average mode(s) of advice here are sub-ideal, or subsets of the advice actual damaging, and that sort of thing. As long as it stays in Debate, and at least some of the folks arguing each side are really willing to engage about the implications of various communication approaches, and not just be shouty or flag-wave-y, or post a pointed criticism then flounce off. (This thread has been reasonably OK in that way, to my taste.)
Not always, but sometimes it helps me learn things about others' cognitive styles, and how to communicate effectively to a diverse audience, and that sort of thing. If the topic were a daily deal, it'd get eye-roll-y, but every few months or a year, potentially helpful.
I'm Pollyanna-ing again, eh? 😉
We like that about you!
More seriously--and probably this goes to my cognitive style--I'm a hater of this type of thread. To my mind, it's rude, as it calls out everyone in a community and leads people wondering if they are being accused of things or, more likely, if they have been misunderstood, and it also lends itself to strawmanning and people jumping in to share vague beefs (not saying that specifically happened here, just speaking generally).
If I see a post that I find unhelpful in the way OP suggested, I will say so in the thread. Not necessarily in a confrontational way, of course, but by quoting and disagreeing nicely or just encouraging OP or saying I think the goal isn't necessarily unreasonable, even if it might be hard. Or sharing my success at doing something similar, if reasonable, depending on what it is. I don't think anything is ever gained by such general "people on this site are doing vague bad things," especially since you never know who has seen what threads. I think some find disagreeing in a thread more directly as somehow "meaner" than an anonymous complaint thread like this, but I would completely disagree, and would say unlike this kind of thread it actually might have the ability to be productive.
The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
This place is LOUSY with people coming in here with unrealistic goals of super fast weight loss and building muscle mass faster than healthy or human. I cannot even tell you how many threads I have seen from people expecting to see results in the mirror after a week or two of a new program.
OF COURSE you will see lots of people try to temper expectations and set more realistic goals. That is called being helpful.
You throw enough time and process at something a lot of positive things can happen. Unfortunately we live in an impatient society that often wants immediate results to motivate them to continue. Do we just let them give up without even trying to help?
I agree with what you wrote but none of those things were the examples I gave. I'm talking about basic goals like a flat stomach or low bf% without a timeframe. As I stated, I had a goal that took over a decade. I'm not talking about helping people put a realistic time frame to their goals; I'm talking about how people will project their own limitations on something that is difficult but 100% doable onto someone else.
People keep trying to put words in my mouth as to the OP. I'm sure I could've worded it better but this was more meant to be a philosophical discussion about discouraging a realistic goal about than a "well theres this one person that keeps starting over and they always have this ridiculous goal and get depressed then quit over and over so it wouldn't help to encourage them!" discussion. Not sure why people responding cant just make a huge leap and assume we're NOT talking about a goal that is literally impossible because of a physical limitation or helping someone add milestones to their overall goal.
What examples? I haven't seen any links to threads that you find problematic. Did I miss them?
See the first paragraph of the OP and maybe you could take my word for their existence?
I can take your word they exist but without reading them I lack context. A message board is not a great means of communication and it often leaves too much room for personal interpretation. Also, since this is an open forum not all advice is credible. We have had many strange ideas and claims come through here. If the person giving it received a number of disagrees it might be worth noting it is not a popular opinion here.
So links please.6 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
The main threads I recall where people said body goals were unrealistic apart from the time frame and the risking their health ones are the ones already mentioned, where a woman wanted to achieve an obviously non natural giant booty physique and was miserable and desperate since dieting a little and working out a little weren't getting her there.9 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.9 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
I can see that.2 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
You are right. Most people don’t have the time/dedication and/or ability to accomplish their fitness and/ or physique goals and are so envious of someone else’s goals that we can’t put aside own jealousy. Shame on us.
Frankly, OP, I think you are beating around the bush. You need to provide specifics, because at this point I don’t think you can.
To add: I love this community and I think we are super, and please don’t believe the second sentence in the first paragraph. I’m in a cranky mood. Lol
4 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
7 -
IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
Please provide links to places where people have projected their own limitations on others so we can agree with you on how bad that is.
We are not having a philosophical discussion. You are commenting on some posts and how you interpret them. You may be interpreting them correctly but without seeing them I can't tell.
What would you have done 10 years ago if someone said your goal was unrealistic? Would you have given up? Or would you have used that adversity as additional motivation to prove them wrong? If a goal shrivels and dies under the first sign of trouble was it ever really a goal or just a daydream?
I've already said I'm not going to call out individuals so if that's not good enough, not sure what to tell you.
If I thought the person telling me so was more knowledgeable or experienced than me, it would have had a negative effect. Maybe once I realized it wasn't true, it would have had the opposite effect.0 -
Fixed the comment by making a couple small changes.L1zardQueen wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
And that's all fair enough. And I'm not saying that I had any more context than the people I thought were being unnecessarily negative. Again, it was more a philosophical look at when and why people slap a "unrealistic" sticker on other people's goals. Some are deserving, others are (in my opinion) people saying that because they themselves dont have the time/dedication/ability to accomplish it.
You are right. Most people don’t have the time/dedication and/or ability to accomplish their fitness and/ or physique goals and are so envious of someone else’s goals that we can’t put aside own jealousy. Shame on us.
3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »IronIsMyTherapy wrote: »The point was to create discussion on what is considered unrealistic, spurred by seeing a few people call things unrealistic that are extremely realistic in a general sense, not to cover every eventuality and circumstance.
Mostly what I've seen people call unrealistic are different from the things you mentioned. I haven't noticed any posts telling guys they can't get to be below 10% BF, although I'm sure all kinds of posts happen from time to time, so am not saying you are wrong. Like Novus, I feel like I can't have an opinion on what happened there without the context. Similarly, whether a woman (20s or no) can get a flat belly depends on her build and other specifics. I wouldn't discourage someone, but if someone were below the min BMI and insisting she still needed to lose because she did not have a flat stomach, I wouldn't encourage her to keep losing. Usually people link the "so you want a nice stomach" thread, or did in the past, and it has advice about how to recomp: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach
I have seen threads where women have been told their stomach goals are not realistic. Mostly because they're posting photos to show that they ALREADY have a very flat stomach, but they're posting about hating how much it sticks out or expressing dismay that it gets a bit bigger after they eat.
The other one I've seen is women who are pretty fit but have lose skin, usually from having been pregnant, that makes their stomach not flat. Sometimes you see it from people who lots alot of weight too. They think it's still fat they need to lose, but it's a whole other issue.4
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